INTENDED
APPOINTMENTS
MICHAEL HENNESSY
CONTENTS
Wednesday 19 August 1998
Intended appointments
Mr Michael J. Hennessy
Mrs Jane Limina
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Président
Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine ND)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président
Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York ND)
Mr Alex Cullen (Ottawa West / -Ouest L)
Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur L)
Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay / Muskoka-Baie-Georgienne PC)
Mr Bert Johnson (Perth PC)
Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine ND)
Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York ND)
Mr Dan Newman (Scarborough Centre / -Centre PC)
Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton North / -Nord PC)
Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough PC)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants
Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough-Ellesmere PC)
Mr William Saunderson (Eglinton PC)
Clerk / Greffier
Mr Douglas Arnott
Staff / Personnel
Mr David Pond, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1005 in room 228.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
MICHAEL HENNESSY
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Michael Hennessy, intended appointee as member, Ontario Housing Corp board of directors.
The Vice-Chair (Mr Rosario Marchese): I call the meeting to order. Just to point out to people at the back, Frances Lankin is the Chair. We expected her to be here. She could arrive, and if she does, I will assume my position there and ask questions at that time. In the meantime, I will be chairing. We're calling Michael Hennessy to come up as the first person we will be interviewing today.
Welcome, Mr Hennessy. We usually allow the individual to make some statements if he or she wants. If you don't have any comments to make, we'll move immediately to questions from the government party. We'll leave that up to you.
Mr Michael J. Hennessy: Thank you. I would like to make a few comments.
Mr Chair and members of the standing committee, I thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. I am a retired teacher, retiring from Fanshawe College in London, Ontario, in June 1988. After retirement I went to the United Arab Emirates to participate in establishing their higher colleges of technology. Returning to Canada after two years in the Emirates, I was asked to return to my previous position at Fanshawe College to enable my replacement to receive medical attention. This was to be a temporary assignment. This temporary assignment continued until December 1997.
I was first elected to Ingersoll town council in 1991 and re-elected in 1994. In 1997 I became mayor. During my six years as a councillor I served as chair of finance and administration, together with other related committees. During this period there were no municipal tax increases.
My wife, Daphne, and I have two grown children. Both have families of their own and we are proud grandparents.
As a municipal councillor I am aware that housing is becoming more and more a municipal concern: downloading of responsibility for local housing, mandated minimum services, administrative structures shared between upper-level governments, together with the possibility of insufficient funding. There is need for clear direction.
I see the role of municipalities as an opportunity to utilize more municipal services with upper-level government. The economies through this kind of sharing could result in savings that would benefit local authorities.
The purpose of this application is to seek to become more knowledgeable in the requirements within the present system and to be able to identify those requirements. This, I believe, can best be accomplished by submitting my name for appointment to this committee. Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: We have questions. Ms Mushinski, to begin.
Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough-Ellesmere): I have a couple of questions. Mr Hennessy, you have an interesting and varied municipal background, culminating in your acclamation as mayor in 1998. Are you familiar with the social housing projects in Oxford county? Do you have any comments with respect to the devolution of Ontario Housing to the municipalities?
Mr Hennessy: First, I would say that I have limited knowledge with regard to the local housing authority. I can say we have 1,600 units and it's supported by about 13 organizations. With regard to devolution, I must say that I support it. I have some concerns, but generally speaking I support the devolution.
Ms Mushinski: When you say you have limited knowledge of the housing projects, you say there are 13 organizations, so I take it that there are varied social housing projects, ranging from non-profit to co-ops, as well as OHC housing.
Mr Hennessy: That is correct.
Ms Mushinski: OK. Are you aware of whether there is a particularly long waiting list in your region?
Mr Hennessy: I am not aware of the numbers. In a previous conversation that I had about two weeks ago, we're using a figure of 30% as being the true number of that waiting list because we're finding that there is movement from one area to another.
Ms Mushinski: You see there is a fair amount of transition at this point.
Mr Hennessy: Yes.
Ms Mushinski: OK. I've got one final question, just to really get an understanding of your philosophy towards social housing. Do you think that government should be in the business of housing developments, or would you prefer to see the private sector build affordable rental housing?
Mr Hennessy: At the present moment I think it would have to be a combination. I don't think the local municipalities are really in a position at this stage to take over the full responsibility. Eventually, yes.
Ms Mushinski: So you'd like to see the process of devolution and the appropriate setting up of administrative functions before the municipalities or the private sector completely take over affordable housing projects.
Mr Hennessy: Yes.
Ms Mushinski: I don't have any further questions.
Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton North): Mr Hennessy, thank you for coming forward. You bring an interesting perspective, and that is a municipal perspective, to this particular board. I wondered what skills you personally saw that would be relevant to the board in bringing that perspective.
Mr Hennessy: I like to think, although this must be judged by others, that I have good financial understanding. I have been chair of finance and administration, and I am deemed to be a budget freak, that we maintain budgets and this type of thing. If I have any strengths, it's probably in that area. By profession, my majors were logistics, economics and statistics, so I think I have good knowledge in terms of areas of numbers.
Mr Spina: Thank you, sir. I wish you well.
Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): Good morning, Mr Hennessy. I want to pursue some of the aspects of the questioning that was begun by the government party, but I just want to ask you first of all if you're aware if you have any relation to a former member of the Legislature named Michael J. Hennessy, Mickey Hennessy, the former member for Fort William for many years. He was Michael J. Hennessy.
Mr Hennessy: I'm afraid I have no knowledge of that person.
Mr Gravelle: A legendary man from northern Ontario, a scout with the Montreal Canadiens, just a great gentleman. Succeeded in his seat by Lyn McLeod, as many of the members of the government know. Mickey was a wonderful man.
The Vice-Chair: Must have been.
Mr Gravelle: He was an incredible man -- a boxer.
The Vice-Chair: Legendary.
Mr Gravelle: Mr Hennessy, I want to pursue this in terms of you did say at the beginning of your remarks or, I believe, in questioning from Ms Mushinski that you support the devolution of social housing down to municipalities. But then a little later on you made it clear that you didn't think the municipalities were ready yet to take it on, so I want to ask you a little more about that. The pressure is on. Obligations have begun as of January 1. The full administration takes place in the year 2000. Actually, if you wouldn't mind just telling us why you think it is appropriate.
I can certainly tell you why I would argue that it may not be appropriate for the municipalities to be handling it because of the fact that they have various resources and different abilities to manage them. Also, in terms of provincial responsibilities, my feeling is that it's something that should be handled by the province. But obviously you're sitting here today. I'd be curious as to why you think it's appropriate, if not a good idea, to have it devolved to municipalities.
Mr Hennessy: I'm of the opinion that the requirements for social housing differ from area to area.
Mr Gravelle: Exactly.
Mr Hennessy: The area that I come from, Oxford county, is generally considered to be an agrarian-type locality. The problems that we have would be vastly different from those problems that would be entertained by a large city like Toronto. I think there has to be local involvement to make the system work, taking into account those conditions that apply in the specific area. I'm not against an overall policy. That I support entirely, but I believe there should be enough flexibility at the local level to adjust to the local conditions.
Mr Gravelle: I think in some ways you're actually making my point, which is that there are obviously different circumstances around the province, the city of Toronto being a good example, where there's obviously a greater responsibility for social housing. You talk about having some local involvement, but I take it you don't necessarily believe -- the financial pressures could be fairly extreme, obviously, on some of the communities in the province. Are you saying you believe it is appropriate that those financial pressures should be handled by the municipalities?
Mr Hennessy: Eventually, yes. I believe they need guidance in this area. The reason I'm having problems with this is, I should point out that in Oxford county we're a two-tier government. The present responsibility is at the county level, and I am a county councillor. The movement from county down to the very local level, the municipal level, I think is going to take much longer to be effective. The present devolution is quite adequate to the county level, but I'm not sure that it's ready to go down to the municipal level. I'm talking Oxford county only. I have very little knowledge in other areas.
Mr Gravelle: Are you saying then that at the very least the government should slow down? The timeline they've got in place now is one that seems fairly firm. Would you in your position, if you are approved today, ask them to look at changing the timing for this in terms of your situation at least?
Mr Hennessy: I would have to see the structured timing to comment on that question.
Mr Gravelle: As the mayor of Ingersoll, obviously you're facing all the responsibilities of the downloading, or transfer of responsibilities, as the government would prefer to call it. Certainly we view it as a downloading in that we don't believe it's in any way revenue-neutral. Are there other aspects of that downloading that concern you? I know that certainly other communities and jurisdictions have argued that indeed some aspects of the downloading really should remain the responsibility of the province. Do you have any thoughts on that? I'm just curious in your position as mayor.
Mr Hennessy: I would be lying if I said no. Yes, we do have problems. We are coping with them. The assessment is one major problem, and new taxing. The education tax and the offsetting of that tax by tax ratios and percentages is again causing problems, but I think they are problems that we can overcome.
Mr Gravelle: In other words, you believe in essence that this is something that -- is it really more a question that you have no choice and you'd better deal with it, or is it that you absolutely agree that it is a good idea? I guess that's what I'm trying to pin down. I don't mean particularly to put you on the spot. I'm just very curious as to your position about it in that you'll be sitting in an important position presumably after today, so I think it's important to get your very clear viewpoint on the whole social housing policy in this province.
Mr Hennessy: I think in terms of the total statement, I would have to say that -- and I'm expressing a personal view now -- the status quo is not acceptable. There must be change. As to what degree of change, I have mixed emotions in that area. However, definitely I believe change is necessary. I don't know if that answers your question.
Mr Gravelle: In other words, may I say, without putting words in your mouth, that you believe that change is necessary but not necessarily the way it is been handled at this stage? This would not be necessarily the way that you would think it should be done.
Mr Hennessy: At the moment, sir, I have an open mind, and I'll be directed by others in that area.
Mr Gravelle: Just your thoughts on social housing in general. In terms of Ingersoll itself, do you know what the waiting list is in Ingersoll?
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Mr Hennessy: I don't know the actual numbers. I do know that we're using this factor, as I mentioned earlier, of 30% as being a need. However, we have a very flexible movement in the area between different communities. As far as I know, there is accommodation in the future to add to our present facilities. To what degree, I really don't know.
Mr Gravelle: Mr Hennessy, did you seek this position out? I'm curious. Did you seek out the position to go on the board here?
Mr Hennessy: No. It was in a conversation with Mr Ernie Hardeman, our MPP, that I expressed an interest in the area, and I didn't know there was an appointment or a vacancy. He contacted me later to ask if I would be prepared to apply for this position.
Mr Gravelle: Are you a member of a political party, Mr Hennessy?
Mr Hennessy: I have been. I'm not at the present moment.
Mr Gravelle: Thank you very much, Mr Hennessy. Obviously you intend to take this position very seriously. I hope you do and I'm sure you will retain an open mind about how you feel about the devolution policy. I would certainly encourage you to express that once you're in this position, because I think there are some great concerns about this process and it's important that we have people who are open to being perhaps critical of it or making some suggestions. Certainly someone in your position in terms of your responsibilities municipally could make a real difference, so I hope that is the case. Thank you very much.
The Vice-Chair: We thank you, Mr Hennessy, for coming down to answer our questions.
JANE LIMINA
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Jane Limina, intended appointee as member, Consent and Capacity Board.
The Vice-Chair: I'd like to call Jane Limina. Welcome. We give you the same opportunity, Ms Limina, if you want to make some statement before we get to the questions. If not, we'll move straight to the questions.
Mrs Jane Limina: I will briefly. Thank you very much, Mr Chair, members of the standing committee.
I was born in North Bay, Ontario, where we were fortunate to return as a family 15 years ago. Our family, my husband and daughters, continues to maintain an interest in the city of North Bay. The community has changed since I grew up. It has grown not only in size but in its makeup; there's more. There's more because of its generation of people making a contribution. I can tell you that I have been involved in the community that I have lived in through my growing-up years in high school, through my college-university years and my almost 25 years of marriage. I was involved because of our family interests and activities or what would have been happening in my interest in my school years. I felt that I could give back what I had been given.
I'm assuming that you have my resumé. I have been involved in the school system. I have been involved from parent-participating preschools right through to the high school level. I've also been a board member and fundraiser of the local Capital Center and art gallery and the North Bay Crisis Centre. I am a fundraiser for the Nipissing Rotary Club, where my husband is a member, and the YMCA aquatic campaign. My interests lie within gardening and the French River, which I left to come here today, so this is very important to me also.
I do not pass judgment on people. I know them well. I have always been involved with others within my career at IBM and Bell Northern Research. My degree is in journalism, and I was employed in public relations departments for both of those companies. I also in the city of North Bay worked full-time for five years for a company known as AIM, where I worked with the citizens of North Bay. It is a federal-government-funded project where I was able to enrol others in work situations within the community and have them feel some worth and start a career. I did this very successfully. I'm now employed part-time with my husband on special projects within the community in the insurance industry.
I thank you for this time and I can assure you I will do my best for my community and represent well on the Consent and Capacity Board. I am not judgmental, I am empathetic, I maintain my perspective and always have, I listen well and I am a positive person. Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you. Mr Gravelle, we'll begin with you.
Mr Gravelle: Good morning, Mrs Limina. This is a sensitive position, I believe, the Consent and Capacity Board. It's one that requires, in my opinion, a great deal of sensitivity and some expertise in the area. On your resumé I don't think I see that in terms of involvement. May I ask, did you put your name forward in terms of this particular board, and why do you feel in that sense you are qualified to sit on this particular board?
Mrs Limina: No, I did not put my name forward. I believe my name came out of the constituency office because of their knowledge of my work within the community. I was interviewed on the telephone by a panel representing the Ministry of Health. I also sent down my resumé, at which time I learned that I was being considered. Then I received word that I would be coming here.
I am qualified as a community member for the Consent and Capacity Board because I feel my knowledge of others and my instinct towards others allow me the opportunity to look at a situation and follow the guidelines set out by the Mental Health Act and stay within those laws that protect the community or the patient. I believe I am able to do this.
Mr Gravelle: You mentioned that it came out of the constituency office. Can you tell us whose constituency office that would be?
Mrs Limina: Mr Harris's.
Mr Gravelle: The Premier's constituency office. The question I will ask you is -- you feel you're qualified. Obviously you want to have your name put forward. It was put forward by the Premier. Do you work with the Premier
Mrs Limina: No, I don't.
Mr Gravelle: Are you a supporter? May I ask that question?
Mrs Limina: I have been a supporter of the Conservative Party but I've also been involved in other parties.
Mr Gravelle: Have you studied the Mental Health Act? Can you tell us that you've looked at all the aspects of the Mental Health Act, plus the Consent and Capacity Board issues? Do you feel that you've got yourself prepared in that sense, in the formal sense?
Mrs Limina: I have been reviewing a bit of it because I was able to attend a hearing as an observer. I also met with Mr Bay, who was attending a meeting in North Bay, not assuming I would get this position but realizing that it would be very expensive to come down here. I just wanted a little bit of background, as an outside person, giving me a little bit of knowledge of what I would be involved in. I felt that not knowing very much about it, I had to do a little research myself to see if I was prepared and could contribute positively to this position.
I am not fully knowledgeable. I will learn more. I know what my position is as a community member, along with the lawyer and the psychiatrist who are on the panel with me. I know what my position is. I'm not a professional there. I am a community member and I will see something, maybe, through discussion that will aid in the decision. I am not a professional on the board.
Mr Gravelle: There are a lot of issues that are swirling about us in terms of some of the potential changes and concerns that people have in terms of the Mental Health Act and I'm just wondering whether you're familiar with them as well. Certainly one of them is to do with people who are not always taking their medication when they should and people being put in a position where some people believe that they should be, depending on the circumstances, required to do so. Have you got a position on that? I think everybody in a community probably has some thoughts about that. Do you have any thoughts?
Mrs Limina: I will not offer an opinion because I feel everybody's situation is different. Until you are put in a situation where you can hear that other person and their situation, you can't offer an opinion. You have to deal with each situation at the time.
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Mr Gravelle: So then you wouldn't support a change to the Mental Health Act that would give more flexibility to the system to basically force people to take the medication that obviously a doctor believes is what is needed to help them.
Mrs Limina: I will support the Mental Health Act if it is changed, as I support the Mental Health Act as it is now. I have to. Those are the boundaries that are set out and I will continue to stay within the law of the Mental Health Act. If it changes, then I have to change too.
Mr Gravelle: Do you not think, though, as a com-munity representative, that having some background even in health care would be useful, would make some sense in terms of a representative on this board? Obviously you feel you're going to do a good job. You're keen to do it. The concern I have is that there aren't that many positions that are available and it seems to me that to have somebody who would have a background in the health care field or at least have some relationship with that might be more suitable and more helpful in terms of the requirements of the board.
Mrs Limina: I don't think so. There is a lawyer, who certainly knows his position on the board and he has been appointed for his background and his experiences within this area. There is a psychiatrist, who certainly understands the situation and knows what he's speaking of. I am the community member. I cannot overstep their bounds. I will see something, maybe, that they may not see, by looking at that person and what they're saying and maybe an understanding, or there might have been something missed in a medical situation that I just pick up on or through discussion.
The patient's doctor will have presented a history. I see it as a member of a jury, so you have to have varied backgrounds. You have to be there to listen. A lawyer might be listening to, say, keeping everything within the legal parameters and a psychiatrist is certainly listening for the medical.
Mr Gravelle: Give me your thoughts on the Health Services Restructuring Commission. It has gone across the province and obviously made some decisions that have upset the health care system in this province in a pretty dramatic way. Obviously you have a friendship with the Premier. Have you talked to him about --
Interjection.
Mr Gravelle: You do not have a friendship with the Premier?
Mrs Limina: No, I don't have a friendship with him.
Mr Gravelle: I would be curious, and you've been a supporter, as to what your thoughts are in terms of the Health Services Restructuring Commission and the decline of health care in our province as a result of some of the decisions that have been made, any thoughts you have on that.
Mrs Limina: First of all, I would like to address the fact that I have never discussed the health care situation. You can't grow up in North Bay without looking at what is there in your community and therefore in your province and in your country. As a parent I am concerned but I have no thoughts otherwise. I deal with each situation as I receive it. I continue to do that. I'm channelled that way. I will look at an individual situation just like I look at an individual person and deal with that situation at the time.
On my relationship with Mr Harris, you can't grow up in North Bay and not know who he is. I'm much younger than he is, though, so I don't know him very well.
Ms Mushinski: Good morning. I'm interested in pursuing Mr Gravelle's line of questioning with respect to your credentials because I'm not sure that I necessarily agree with him. Because you're from the community and you represent the community and you're before us this morning as the community representative for the panel, I'd like to just expand a little bit on your background within the community.
It would seem to me that in looking at your community involvement, there are several areas where you have served as a board member that could quite readily fit into the jurisdiction of this particular panel. For example, it says you were a past board member of the North Bay Crisis Centre. Could you enlarge on that a little bit? I think that would certainly give you some insight into some of the challenges that Mr Gravelle mentioned and sensitivities with respect to the work that's required for this particular panel. Could you comment on that?
Mrs Limina: Certainly. I applied for a board position at the North Bay Crisis Centre, which is now involved with the Transition House in North Bay. While I was there for a three-year term I was involved with families in crisis. I also worked with the children of the families and found opportunities for them within the city and the school system of North Bay. I worked with young mothers more than the fathers and I was able to establish a program where they got back to the community, felt self-worth through employment through just physical appearance, their own personal self-worth as well as their professional self-worth within a work environment.
I was also part of a team that purchased property for women in transition. We established a board, along with the city of North Bay, for the Transition House that aided women in crisis.
Ms Mushinski: So you've had fairly extensive experience in volunteering for your community. I take it that as a community member you would be able to contribute the lifelong learning that you have undertaken as a community representative.
Mrs Limina: I will continue to do that. I'm asked very often to sit on the IPRC hearings for children in the school system who need to be placed in other environments, whether through learning difficulties or they have to be moved due to -- there are varied situations, without going into too much difficulty. I continue to be asked to sit as a community member and offer my suggestions or directions as to where we can see this child or young adult going. I have also worked with adults in crisis through my job with AIM and turned that situation around too.
I am not indifferent to learning so much more and I will quickly become involved in the Consent and Capacity Board in the same manner, with an open mind.
Ms Mushinski: Great. Those are my questions.
The Vice-Chair: I've got a few other questions. Mr Spina or Mr Saunderson?
Mr Spina: I'll defer to Mr Saunderson.
Mr William Saunderson (Eglinton): Mrs Limina, I first of all would like to commend you for being involved with the crisis centre. I have a daughter who's a doctor and she did work with a crisis centre. It was quite an insight into the mental health of the people in Ontario, I think.
I've been told that about a third of our cost of health care in Ontario is related to mental illness and all of its ramifications. I wonder if you'd like to comment about how you see that in your region. Is mental health a concern, as it is throughout the rest of the province, to the extent of the 30% or whatever?
Mrs Limina: Mental health is always a concern in every community. The city of North Bay, with a population of 56,000, is not a stranger to the needs of every individual and certainly those who are in trouble.
Throughout the province, funding for different programs has to be shared and I certainly want to see northern Ontario be part of the allotment or whatever. I am not as interested in that as maybe our city councillors and local members of Parliament might be. I am more interested in it as every individual who has a need getting the opportunity for attention in medicine, for their doctors or psychiatrists. We are very shy of medical doctors in North Bay, we are shy of psychiatrists in North Bay, but North Bay has to let them know this is a good place to be. It's not going to attract them because there are more cases; it's going to attract them because they want to be there and therefore the citizens of North Bay will benefit. They will not be left. We have to work with each person as best we can with what we've got right now.
Mr Saunderson: But as the lay member of a tribunal you certainly seem to have the experience because of your community involvement. You know your community well.
Mrs Limina: I know my community very well. I'm very comfortable with my position in the community of North Bay and proud of it.
Mr Saunderson: Very good.
The Vice-Chair: There are no further questions. We thank you, Ms Limina, for coming and answering our questions.
Mrs Limina: Thank you very much.
The Vice-Chair: I think we're ready for the vote. Mr Gravelle, do you want to do the vote separately or can we do them together?
Mr Gravelle: Separately, please.
The Vice-Chair: All right. We'll start with Michael Hennessy. All in favour of the appointment?
Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): I'll move that.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Grimmett moves the adoption of Michael Hennessy as one of the appointees. All in favour? Any opposed? None. That carries.
We'll move on to Jane Limina. Do we have a motion?
Mr Grimmett: I move concurrence.
The Vice-Chair: All in favour?
Interjection.
The Vice-Chair: I'm assuming if there was some discussion you would want -- OK. Opposed? Mr Gravelle is opposed. That motion carries.
We thank you. This meeting is adjourned. We'd like to have a little subcommittee to determine the next meeting, if the other folks would remain behind.
The committee adjourned at 1043.