INTENDED
APPOINTMENTS
GUY CAVERSON
CONTENTS
Wednesday 30 October 1996
Intended appointments
Mr Guy Caverson
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Président: Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt ND)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt ND)
*Mr RickBartolucci (Sudbury L)
Mr BruceCrozier (Essex South / -Sud L)
*Mr EdDoyle (Wentworth East / -Est PC)
*Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber PC)
*Mr GaryFox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings /
Prince Edward-Lennox-Hastings-Sud PC)
*Mr MichaelGravelle (Port Arthur L)
Mr BertJohnson (Perth PC)
*Mr PeterKormos (Welland-Thorold ND)
*Mr FloydLaughren (Nickel Belt ND)
Mr Gary L. Leadston (Kitchener-Wilmot PC)
*Mr DanNewman (Scarborough Centre / -Centre PC)
*Mr Peter L. Preston (Brant-Haldimand PC)
Mr TonySilipo (Dovercourt ND)
*Mr BobWood (London South / -Sud PC)
*In attendance /présents
Substitutions present /Membres remplaçants présents:
Mr John L. Parker (York East / -Est PC) for Mr Leadston
Mr E.J. DouglasRollins (Quinte PC) for Mr Bert Johnson
Clerk /Greffière: Ms Donna Bryce
Staff / Personnel: Mr David Pond, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1002 in room 228.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT
The Chair (Mr Floyd Laughren): The standing committee will come to order. The first order of business is the report of the subcommittee dated Thursday, October 24.
Mr Bob Wood (London South): I move the adoption of the subcommittee report.
The Chair: The report of the subcommittee is attached. Are there any comments or debate about Mr Wood's motion?
All in favour? Opposed? It's carried.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
GUY CAVERSON
Review of intended appointment, selected by third party: Guy Caverson, intended appointee as member, Regional Municipality of Sudbury Police Services Board.
The Chair: Mr Caverson, if you want to have a seat at the table, we welcome you here. It's always good to have a Sudburian come down and appear before the committee. It's a tradition that you have the opportunity to say a few opening remarks if you wish to; you don't have to. Then we rotate and ask you questions.
Mr Guy Caverson: My name is Guy Caverson, as announced by the Chair, and I am a proposed appointee to the Regional Municipality of Sudbury Police Services Board.
I was born and raised in Sudbury. I have a few brief opening remarks. I don't have a prepared delivery; I'd rather do it in a candid manner. I was educated at St Charles College in Sudbury and obtained my undergraduate degree at McMaster University in commerce and administration, subsequently obtaining my accounting degree.
I worked for quite a number of years for the province of Ontario in a number of different ministries: Consumer and Commercial Relations, the Ministry of Housing, Ontario Housing Corp, Sudbury District Housing Authority. My last position with the government of Ontario was as commissioner of the Residential Tenancy Commission, where I was charged with the responsibility for adjudicating public hearings under the Statutory Powers Procedure Act.
I left that posting in 1986 to return to private practice with then Thorne Ernst and Whinney Chartered Accountants. Our firm changes its name as quickly as the weather changes in Ontario. I left the firm after starting a land development business in the Walden area, Nickel Belt riding. I found that throughout the years we made a big commitment to the community.
I look forward to an opportunity to serve on the police services board. I believe I have a solid background in finance and administration. I noted from my research that none of the members presently sitting on the Sudbury Police Services Board has an extensive financial background. I think that will be an asset to the board in and of itself.
I look forward to any questions the committee might have this morning.
Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber): Good morning, Mr Caverson, and welcome to this committee. I have a question here -- I have a couple of them, actually -- and I'll just read them off to you.
I see from your résumé that you are a volunteer with the Sudbury Regional Police/OPP sober driving program. Would you tell this committee about your work on this project and the impact it's had on your community?
Mr Caverson: Initially the regional police, in conjunction with the Addiction Research Foundation, adopted a program to reward people who were driving with the absence of alcohol in their systems. They elected to run an ad campaign as well as a television commercial and to reward drivers who were stopped at what were then known as spot checks with a licence folder. They asked me to be, let's say, the sober driver for the commercial at that point in time.
Subsequently, the Addiction Research Foundation, with the OPP and the regional police, launched a separate program where they took it to snowmobiling. They asked me again if I would be one of the designated snowmobile operators, and at that time I actually provided funding for the production of the licence folders.
I think that program in and of itself has really worked well in Sudbury. People would actually drive around looking for a spot check to get a free licence folder. I think they thought it was a get-out-of-jail-free card, but it wasn't, obviously, intended for that. It was a good program to be involved with. I thought it would benefit the community. Since then, my family has been touched by accidents involving drinking drivers. I was happy that I was in before the occurrence. Unfortunately, it didn't eliminate the tragedy that followed.
Mr Ford: So it's shown results.
Mr Caverson: Yes, it has.
Mr Ford: I've got one more question. Could you please tell the committee, are there some unique aspects to policing in Sudbury? Are there some specific regional concerns within Sudbury that you know of?
Mr Caverson: Yes, I believe there are a couple. Sudbury has a large geographic land mass. It's difficult to police. The regional municipality of Sudbury has eight satellite police stations. Response times sometimes can take a long period, particularly if vehicles are centred in one area of the region.
The other thing that impacts on the city is that we presently take overload from Toronto and other Metro jails that is placed in Sudbury's maximum security installation right in downtown Sudbury at the courthouse facility. A concern is that people who come there to serve their time often receive their bus pass and their meal allowance when they're done, but they don't leave. We're actually importing some of the crime that you've probably read the chief of police is concerned about. Those are issues.
Separately, I know we should probably be looking at, and the Regional Municipality of Sudbury Police Force is actually looking at, a search-and-rescue program, because we've had situations where searches take place. We have a relatively hostile climate. It doesn't allow you half a day for response times. If you don't have people mobilized and out there in a hurry, you could have lost hunters, blueberry pickers in severe jeopardy.
Mr Ford: So it's a very serious problem.
Mr Caverson: I think so.
Mr Peter L. Preston (Brant-Haldimand): I just have one question. Something I'm very interested in is Bill C-68, the Firearms Act. Our minister, Minister Runciman, feels that it won't keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. I'm of the same opinion. The great cost to administer the smuggling problem is going to overwhelm us. First of all, is there any concern in your area about this? How do you feel about it?
Mr Caverson: Bill C-68 addresses a number of issues, one being the safe storage of firearms. I have read and followed what the minister is doing, as well as the other four provinces that intend to launch the constitutional challenge under the Constitution Act.
Personally, it concerns me from one perspective, primarily in who's going to police it. Is it going to take officers off the road who will be addressing someone's residence three hours a day, five hours a day? What's the cost going to be?
I know with respect to smuggling it's a federal issue. The borders of the country are federally mandated and federally monitored. It's very possible that Bill C-68 is an attempt by the federal government to download the cost of policing in Ontario for its own borders on to the Ontario government.
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The issue could be one that has to be addressed very carefully. I know that locally we are a large, rural community. There are a lot of people who do the natural thing up there, which is hunting or fishing or the like. I think a good number of people see it as an intrusion to personal privacy, property rights. I know the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police has endorsed Bill C-68, or at least they did in its infancy. I don't know if that was just political; I couldn't really tell you.
I personally would look at it very cautiously from an expenditure viewpoint and an actual practicality viewpoint. I don't know how effective it can be because I don't know too many criminals who actually could get an FAC today or would retain one after being dealt with by the justice system.
Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): Good morning, Guy. Welcome. You should have phoned me last evening; we could have gotten together. Guy is a former student of mine, and this is as close to a conflict of interest as I'll ever have with a Conservative appointment. But let me tell you, Guy, I ask the same two questions of every Sudbury appointee, because they are of critical importance to me. Are you hard of hearing?
Mr Caverson: No, sir.
Mr Bartolucci: I refer to it because Ray Poratto had a great deal of difficulty hearing the questions of the New Democratic Party and the Liberal Party. We wouldn't want you to have to go through that, because we could rearrange the seating here.
The second question is, after this appointment, do you plan on getting so fed up with this government that you're going to leave the country?
Mr Caverson: No, sir.
Mr Bartolucci: Because that's what happened with another appointee who was appointed to a commission here. He decided to go back to school in Ireland and pursue his career in Ireland. We truly miss that individual, and you know who I'm talking about, because he was a valuable member of the medical community.
Having asked those two questions and knowing that you don't have any problem hearing our questions, let me just ask you a very few questions related specifically to the impact of pending legislation on our community and your reaction to it as a member of the police services board. That has to do with Bill 75, the VLT legislation. Are you in favour of VLTs?
Mr Caverson: At this stage, I don't have enough information on which to make an informed opinion. There is an issue with respect to the video lottery terminals, but I am reluctant to express an opinion. I like to have the facts before me. There are a couple of words that don't exist in my vocabulary: "assume" and "can't." But I would take a hard look at them, because it's like anything else that you bring on in this country. We've moved ahead rather rapidly with casinos. They're the next onset. I think it's something that the chief and the regional police service in and of itself would be very interested in looking at and taking a hard look at.
Mr Bartolucci: That's a fair answer. I'm sure a member of the third party will follow up on questions regarding VLTs.
Let me talk to you a little bit about the city's resolution that was passed regarding video lottery terminals. Are you familiar with the city's recommendation to the province?
Mr Caverson: No, sir, I'm not.
Mr Bartolucci: Would you be in favour, as a member of a police services board, of supporting a resolution passed at city council which would require that if VLT legislation takes place, a percentage of the money obtained locally be given to the police services board for education, for monitoring and enforcement, and if necessary the hiring of additional officers to ensure that the level of crime in a community isn't enhanced because of this legislation?
Mr Caverson: I wouldn't see any problem with trying to make sure that funds generated in the north remain in the north. I think I'd be a proponent of that whether it was lottery terminals or a toll road.
Mr Bartolucci: Then you would be in agreement with the city's recommendation to ensure that a portion of that money remains with the local police services board.
Mr Caverson: I don't see that it would be inappropriate.
Mr Bartolucci: Do you also agree with the city's resolution that they not be put into licensed establishments or bars?
Mr Caverson: Without having detailed information on how they will operate, how they will be monitored, what kind of security implementations will be necessary, just off the top of my head I'd say you're going to make money off these things. People are going to play these video lottery terminals with large amounts of money in their pockets or with small amounts.
I don't know what the impact is on the owner of a bar. There are issues with regard to alcohol liability. Are people operating these machines of games of chance responsible when they're consuming alcohol? Are they capable of making the decision to part with $200 or $300 of their hard-earned money which otherwise might put food on the table for their families? It's a difficult question that I would reserve opinion on until I have more information.
Mr Bartolucci: I think your opinion suggests exactly what I wanted the committee to find out about you. I'll be supporting Guy's nomination because I know him to be a very individual thinker. I'm going to talk to the committee about the composition the three appointees will bring to the Sudbury Regional Police Services Board. You all know how seriously I take police services board appointees; I was a former member of a police services board and took the job very seriously.
I don't often praise the government for making wise choices when it comes to intended appointees or appointees. I'm not in favour of Ray Poratto and the style he brings to anything. I'm not in favour of your appointments to our northern Ontario heritage fund because they didn't bring the concerns that certainly Sudbury has with regard to the north.
I want you to understand that in his answer Guy speaks very much for the north and that the three people you've appointed to the police services board in Sudbury bring a very unique style. Jeanne Warwick is a businessperson in Sudbury who brings a great deal of business sense to that board. Her appointment wasn't challenged by us because it was a good one. Paul Stopciati is their second appointee and he's very close with the chief and the deputy chief. I see that as being very important as well, because there has to be that type of member on a police services board.
Guy is a very independent thinker who will bring a very unique approach to the board. He will be quite vocal in his positions and ideas. Without answering he has already disagreed with the government and the government's direction. I think that's going to happen more and more because I believe him to be very concerned about the community and about policing. I know that because we shared a property together. Actually, our camps were beside each other and we talked at length about policing in Sudbury several years ago.
His family and mine are very good friends. I don't know what happened to Guy, but I could always count on Mr and Mrs Caverson to put a sign on their grass when I was running as an alderman or as regional councillor. Guy decided he would pursue his political career in a different way and is president of the Sudbury PC association, and I'm sure that will be questioned or commented on later.
The Chair: Mr Bartolucci, you shouldn't worry so much about it. He lives in my riding.
Mr Bartolucci: I know, and he also invites grandchildren of the Chair to birthday parties.
I just want to ask one question in closing, because I will be supporting your appointment: Will you allow your political bent ever to interfere with your role as a police services board member?
Mr Caverson: Absolutely not.
Mr Bartolucci: Thank you.
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Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): I don't know a lot of people who know you, but those who do have spoken highly of you. I anticipate, on behalf of this caucus, supporting your nomination as well. I don't know for the life of me why you wouldn't have put down under volunteer experience your role as president of the Conservative riding association?
Mr Caverson: Yes, that's correct.
Mr Kormos: For the life of me I don't understand why you wouldn't want to include that in the list of volunteer service.
Mr Caverson: When I applied I didn't think I had much of a chance of making it to the police services board. I pulled an old résumé. I thought there was enough that was substantive and dealt with the material facts of my background that would make it relevant. I also anticipated that I would be asked if there was any political affiliation.
Mr Kormos: Besides, I guess the people to whom it was important would know anyway, right?
Mr Caverson: I believe so.
Mr Kormos: You put down under volunteer experience Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters. What type of work do you do with them?
Mr Caverson: I'm just a member. I contribute $25 or $50 a year, $100 a year in annual dues. I was involved, this would be a long time ago, with the Sudbury Game and Fish Protective Association. I attended meetings and that kind of thing.
Mr Kormos: That would be under memberships as compared to volunteer work. Fair enough, and similarly for the Sudbury Game and Fish Protective Association?
Mr Caverson: They are one and the same.
Mr Kormos: So you're a member of these organizations.
Mr Caverson: Yes.
Mr Kormos: And the Trail Plan Association?
Mr Caverson: In its infancy I was avidly riding snowmobiles and involved with the Border Dill Snowmobile Club, the building of its trails and contributions in that regard. They also approached me to be the auditor of the Sudbury Trail Plan Association.
Mr Kormos: Okay, fair enough. Auditor.
Mr Caverson: I was not the auditor. I suggested to them they should be cautious about making millions of miles of trails. That ended up forcing the fees from $50 to what is now $130. Maintenance goes up every time you increase a kilometre of trail.
Mr Kormos: I was interested in what you had to say because you included volunteer experience with the Sudbury Regional Police/OPP/ARF Sober Driver Program and Safe and Sober Snowmobiler Program. What was your role with these again?
Mr Caverson: I was involved in fund-raising for the initiation of the program. I also volunteered to participate in the video production of it.
Mr Kormos: Oh, I see, when you were the designated driver, this was in a video.
Mr Caverson: Yes.
Mr Kormos: I'm not suggesting you had to act to be the sober driver, but it was an acting role.
Mr Caverson: I guess you could call it that.
Mr Kormos: I just asked because they're under volunteer experience and I wanted to put them into context.
You indicate you completed post-graduate courses at Laurentian University. Was it a master's program?
Mr Caverson: Yes, it was.
Mr Kormos: But you didn't get the master's.
Mr Caverson: I didn't finish it, sir.
Mr Kormos: Did you specifically seek the position on the police services board?
Mr Caverson: Yes, sir. I applied.
Mr Kormos: Because of the ad in local newspapers?
Mr Caverson: No, sir. The reason I applied is that I have a fair amount of time available to myself by virtue of being, I suppose the expression is, successful in business. One day a police officer pulled into my driveway. He was on routine patrol in our neighbourhood. We were chatting in the driveway when a call came from the communications centre to his vehicle. As he picked up the radio to respond he couldn't get back to them. They couldn't hear him talking from my driveway in Walden to downtown Sudbury. On that day I asked him: "What's wrong with your radio? Isn't that the new one?" He said, "Yes, it is." I said, "Didn't that cost you a million or so dollars?" He said, "Yes, but it's not working that well." I said, "You might use a can and a string; it might be a lot better," because he couldn't communicate with them.
I'm a licensed amateur radio operator. I have a licensed amateur radio station. I thought at that time if ever an opening had come up on the police services board I would like to have been there when they bought this radio station because I could have asked them: "How many towers are you getting? How many repeaters? What kind of power generation do they have? What kind of reception? Where are they going to be located?" I understand that now they have to install a new tower to make this radio system, which cost a lot of money, work.
I thought it made sense, when there was an opportunity made known to me that the board had a position or two open at the time, so I followed up on it. I thought that's one thing that would be --
Mr Kormos: Sure. The material we get, which is rather sparse, says that the vacancy was advertised in the local newspapers. But it wasn't in response to it that you submitted your application.
Mr Caverson: No, sir. I was just made aware through the riding association that there was a vacancy on the police services board.
Mr Kormos: Oh, through the riding association.
Mr Caverson: Yes, that's correct.
Mr Kormos: Why not?
Mr Caverson: Exactly.
Mr Kormos: Thank you, sir.
Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings): I have a question. I'd like to know if Mr Bartolucci was on that police services committee when this radio equipment purchase --
Mr Bartolucci: May I answer, Mr Chair? I wasn't, but do you know who was the chief at the time? The Progressive Conservative candidate in Sudbury was Richard Zanibbi. Mr Fox, again your party shows its bad business practices by spending how many? Wasn't it $1.6 million?
Mr Caverson: It was a million and something.
Mr Bartolucci: On a police communications system that doesn't work, approved by the PC candidate for the riding of Sudbury, who was unsuccessful and ended up in third place. Thank you.
The Chair: The committee will understand that neither Mr Fox nor Mr Bartolucci is an intended appointee here this morning.
Mr Caverson, I thank you for coming before the committee and responding to the questions.
Mr Caverson: Thank you, members of the committee.
Mr Preston: Thank you, sir, for using the education you received towards making the proper decision.
Mr Bartolucci: We always told him to be very community-minded and involve himself in the community, and Guy has always done that.
Mr Preston: You did an excellent job, sir.
Mr Kormos: But you screwed up on the political background.
Mr Bartolucci: His sister is still working on him.
Mr Preston: He took the great experience that was given to him and made the proper decision.
The Chair: Besides, you don't know which sign he puts on his lawn these days.
Okay, we're open for business. Mr Wood.
Mr Bob Wood: I move concurrence in the intended appointment of Mr Caverson.
The Chair: You've heard the motion. Is there any debate on Mr Wood's motion?
Mr Bartolucci: Just a point of clarification, Mr Chair: It wasn't the official opposition who asked the intended appointee to appear as a witness; it was the third party, and I'd just like to make sure that's on the record.
The Chair: Are you ready for the question? All those in favour of this appointment? Opposed? Carried unanimously.
Any other business for the committee? If not, we're adjourned.
The committee adjourned at 1028.