INTENDED
APPOINTMENTS
SYLVIA HUDSON
CONTENTS
Wednesday 2 October 1996
Election of Vice-Chair
Subcommittee reports
Intended appointments
Mrs Sylvia Hudson
Mr James Clark
Mr Jonas Shepherd
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Président: Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt ND)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt ND)
*Mr RickBartolucci (Sudbury L)
*Mr BruceCrozier (Essex South / -Sud L)
Mr EdDoyle (Wentworth East / -Est PC)
*Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber PC)
*Mr GaryFox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings /
Prince Edward-Lennox-Hastings-Sud PC)
*Mr MichaelGravelle (Port Arthur L)
*Mr BertJohnson (Perth PC)
Mr PeterKormos (Welland-Thorold ND)
*Mr FloydLaughren (Nickel Belt ND)
Mr Gary L. Leadston (Kitchener-Wilmot PC)
*Mr DanNewman (Scarborough Centre / -Centre PC)
*Mr Peter L. Preston (Brant-Haldimand PC)
*Mr TonySilipo (Dovercourt ND)
*Mr BobWood (London South / -Sud PC)
*In attendance /présents
Substitutions present /Membres remplaçants présents:
Mr CarlDeFaria (Mississauga East / -Est PC) for Mr Leadston
Clerk / Greffier: Mr Todd Decker
Staff / Personnel: Mr David Pond, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1004 in room 228.
ELECTION OF VICE-CHAIR
The Chair (Mr Floyd Laughren): Are we ready to start, ladies and gentlemen? I will recognize Mr Wood.
Mr Bob Wood (London South): Mr Chair, I'd like to nominate Mr Tony Silipo as Vice-Chair of the committee.
The Chair: Mr Silipo has been nominated as Vice-Chair. It does not require a seconder. Are there any further nominations for Vice-Chair? Hearing none, Mr Silipo, will you accept the nomination as Vice-Chair?
Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): I will, thank you, sir.
The Chair: Thank you, and may I welcome you to the committee.
Mr Bob Wood: I wonder, Mr Chairman, if I might also move that Mr Silipo replace Mr Martin in the membership of the subcommittee on committee business.
The Chair: You have heard the motion. Any debate? If not, all in favour? Opposed? It's carried. Thank you for that.
Mr Bob Wood: I might say, for the purpose of the record, those of course are decisions of the New Democratic Party, which is entitled to make those decisions on those matters.
The Chair: Yes.
Mr Silipo: Something like that, otherwise --
Mr Peter L. Preston (Brant-Haldimand): But we agree.
The Chair: Yes, that was very clear.
Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): Those are the type of decisions that seem to make sense.
The Chair: Yes.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORTS
The Chair: The next order of business is the report of the subcommittee. I think you have it in front of you.
Mr Bob Wood: Mr Chair, I'd like to move the adoption of the report of the subcommittee of September 10, 1996.
The Chair: That one deals with the September 4 certificates. Any debate on the motion by Mr Wood? If not, all in favour? Opposed? It's carried. Thank you for that.
The next item of business is the report of the subcommittee dated Tuesday, September 17.
Mr Bob Wood: Mr Chair, I'd like to move the adoption of the report of the subcommittee of September 17, 1996.
The Chair: Any debate? All in favour? Opposed? It's carried. Thank you for that.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
SYLVIA HUDSON
Review of intended appointment, selected by third party: Sylvia Hudson, intended appointee as member, Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board.
The Chair: Mrs Hudson, welcome to the committee. Please be seated and be comfortable. We have a tradition of each party having 10 minutes to talk to you, and you have an opportunity to make any opening statement you might want to make. It's not necessary, but please feel free to make any opening statement you'd like.
Mrs Sylvia Hudson: Good morning, everyone, and thank you for having me here. I just want to thank you for meeting with me today and giving me an opportunity to discuss my appointment.
Just to fill you in a little on my background, I was born in Port Antonio in Jamaica. I have been married for almost 20 years. While I was in Jamaica, I worked as a police officer for seven years and have gained extensive knowledge in the criminal justice system in dealing with offenders and law-abiding citizens.
In 1977, I moved to Canada in search of a better future. On my arrival in Canada, I was unable to obtain employment immediately. Therefore, I went to George Brown College, where I studied secretarial courses and office procedure. After graduating from George Brown College, I sought employment as a coding clerk at Christian Children's Fund of Canada. After a few months on the job, the director of Christian Children's Fund of Canada promoted me to supervisor in charge of the coding clerks. CCFC was at the time located at Yonge and St Clair, which was a block from where I lived on Rosehill Avenue.
In 1982, CCFC decided to move their office to Scarborough. It was then that I decided to seek employment elsewhere, as it was too difficult for me to travel to Scarborough.
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My husband was then the supervisor of the computing centre at Ryerson Polytechnic University. He encouraged me to seek employment at that university and at the same time pursue my educational goals. There were several clerical positions available on a contract basis for three months. I applied for the admissions liaison clerk's position. This position I still hold. Two months after my employment at Ryerson, the position became full-time. I am still in that position as an admissions clerk.
During that period I continued to upgrade my education through continuing education, and in 1987 I applied to the school of social work and was admitted into the program. I have since graduated with a bachelor of social work with a minor in public administration. In addition, I have a certificate in management and community studies. I'm currently enrolled in the public administration program.
In 1982, we purchased a home in East York. Moving into the community, I felt the need to do something for my community. I sought volunteer opportunities in the area and was accepted with the Ministry of Community and Social Services, probation. I started working as a volunteer in Yorklea detention home. In 1983, I worked as a life skills worker, helper on the floor, and just a generalist in the detention home.
I became ill in 1985 and eventually moved out of East York into Scarborough. There I started working out of the probation office in Scarborough as a one-to-one with young offenders. The probation office then developed a program called the victim witness interview program. I was asked to participate in that program. The program was rewarding for me, challenging and frustrating: rewarding because I am there with the victims, at their homes or on the telephone, showing empathy and concern and assuring them that somebody cares; frustrating and challenging because it gave me the opportunity to observe and hear at first hand the psychological effects of crime on its victim, and sometimes helplessness.
In 1993, I assisted with the creation and implementation of the victim impact awareness program, which is now being used effectively in the Scarborough office. At the same time, in 1993, I started working as a volunteer reporting officer, enforcing probation orders, setting goals, linking youths to appropriate resources in the community, counselling and other things just to be with the youngsters. I still do some of the victim interviews in an emergency situation.
I would like to add that during my studies at Ryerson I completed four semesters in the criminal justice system. My first was with the Salvation Army correctional service. There I managed a caseload of federal parolees using case management skills, crisis intervention, counselling, problem solving, linking parolees to CORCAN job creation and various programs which help the inmates and offenders back into society.
My second placement was with the Ministry of the Attorney General, the victim witness assistance program, at Scarborough court. There I worked with physically, sexually assaulted women and children, providing counselling, comfort and referrals, accompanying them to court and debriefing them after court, linking these clients to community resources.
I have attended many workshops and have developed extensive skills in leadership, decision-making and problem solving. I work with people of diverse cultural background and adapt readily to the demands of my job.
Since coming to Canada, I have been actively involved, in a quiet way, in some form of community service. Since moving to Scarborough nine years ago, my husband resurrected the Neighbourhood Watch in that community. I have helped him on occasion in walking from door to door handing out flyers regarding police tips for a safer community.
Combined with my education and community service work, I have a broad background and I feel that I am the appropriate person for the job.
The Chair: Thank you, Mrs Hudson. We have a couple of minutes left. Any questions?
Mr Dan Newman (Scarborough Centre): Thank you and welcome, Sylvia, to the committee today. Metropolitan Toronto is a geographically large and diverse area. Can you tell the committee today whose interests you will be representing on the Police Services Board of Metro?
Mrs Hudson: I will be representing the people in the community, and I mean all cultures in my community. I will be working with everyone. I don't want to work with one sector of people, but the entire community.
Mr Preston: You have vast experience in volunteer work. My wife is a teacher in a section 27 school and she's a director of a home for teenage offenders. I know that working with the young offenders has certainly enhanced her knowledge of law and order and various procedures. How do you see it affecting yours?
Mrs Hudson: That also enhanced my knowledge of the criminal justice system. Working with young offenders gave me the insight into how the criminal justice system works. I understand the young offender's point of view. Also, I understand the victim's. I'm really concerned about the victim at this point in time.
Mr Carl DeFaria (Mississauga East): Mrs Hudson, I don't know if you are familiar with the John Brooks Community Foundation and Scholarship Fund in Metro Toronto by any chance --
Mrs Hudson: No, I haven't read anything on that.
Mr DeFaria: How do you see after-school sports programs impacting on young people in Metro as far as improving their situation and avoiding contact with crime?
Mrs Hudson: I think after-school programs, sports activities, for aggression -- probably if the kids are aggressive, contact sports could be effective.
Mr DeFaria: In your work with young offenders -- I practised criminal law for about 18 years and I defended young offenders in court -- do you find that often some people are involved in crime because of boredom and not having activities in the community?
Mrs Hudson: For some of the kids it could be boredom, and some of them are, I think, basically prone to criminal activities. I can't say for boredom, because I think in our community there are lots of activities to alleviate some of this boredom.
The Chair: The time is up, the 10 minutes. Thank you.
Mr Bartolucci: Thank you, Mrs Hudson, for appearing before us this morning. Obviously, the Metro police services board is mammoth in size, it's huge. What do you see as the two main areas of concern in your estimation, and what initiatives will you take to impact on those areas in a positive way?
Mrs Hudson: I think the main issue on the board now is budgeting, and I can't comment on budgeting until I see what is happening -- until I'm on the board and can analyse the budget and see where I can assist in giving some directions or some information on how we could alleviate the cutback and the strain on the budget.
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Mr Bartolucci: A second issue? Is there a second issue that --
Mrs Hudson: There is a second issue on the board, and for me I think it's the black community. I think my community is really looking at someone to be a voice for them. Quite frankly, I want to work with everyone and not with one specific group. I will look at their needs and bring it forward to the board if I'm selected.
Mr Bartolucci: Who approached you to seek this appointment, or was it an initiative you undertook yourself?
Mrs Hudson: I undertook an initiative. I wrote my MPP and I explained to my MPP the need to expand my skills in the area. We looked at various situations, and my MPP and I agreed that the police services board would be an excellent idea for me with my skills and I would be an appropriate candidate for that position.
Mr Bartolucci: Mrs Hudson, what are your views with regard to community-based policing, and how would you either enhance it or lessen the impact of community-based policing in Toronto?
Mrs Hudson: I like community-based policing, and the reason I do like community-based policing is because my husband has been involved with Neighbourhood Watch for many years and I enjoy working alongside with him, protecting our community, and I think each community, if they can do likewise, probably we'll have a safer society.
Mr Bartolucci: Do you feel that Metro is doing enough community-based policing or would you like that to be enhanced?
Mrs Hudson: I haven't studied in depth to see whether it's enough or where it's at, but I am hoping if I'm selected I will read enough on it and see whether it's enough.
Mr Bartolucci: You said you'd like to be a very active voice for the black community, and I commend you for that. Could you relate --
Mrs Hudson: Did I say that I want to be an active voice?
Mr Bartolucci: Yes.
Mrs Hudson: I didn't say that I want to be an active voice; I said I will try to bridge. But I won't be a very active voice, I want to work with everyone.
Mr Bartolucci: Great. That leads right into the second part of the question. If I misunderstood you, I apologize definitely. How are you going to bridge that gap? How can community-based policing bridge that gap?
Mrs Hudson: You are going into the community, you are meeting people, you are getting to know people, and I'm hoping to do likewise. As a matter of fact, I started calling up a few people in my community to get to know them better and to hear their ideas.
Mr Bartolucci: So it's my understanding then -- through you, Mr Chair, a final question -- that as a police services board member, you want to be very active in each of the communities that you represent and that you want to be a hands-on police services board member?
Mrs Hudson: Yes. I want to be effective. I want to hear people's ideas, and I want to be there. I'm hoping for people to give me their ideas so that we can change the system or make the system better or let the system stay as is.
Mr Bartolucci: Thank you very much, Mrs Hudson.
Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): Good morning, Mrs Hudson. Your qualifications seem just excellent, and I'm sure you're going to be just a fine member of the board.
I wanted to ask you though, it's been about a year since the province reduced their social assistance payments by about 22%, and I think we had a number of fears in relation to that, in terms of how difficult it would be to maintain housing for people on social assistance. I think one of the other issues that was of concern was that with lower incomes there'd be a greater desperation in a variety of ways to survive, and I guess I'm wondering, even in terms of the young offenders you've seen, whether or not you have any opinion in terms of the impact that's had, particularly in terms of young people and whether or not that has forced them into more desperate straits which might get them into some kind of trouble?
Mrs Hudson: I don't see cutting of social services affecting where I've been working as a volunteer. It's the same system for years, and I don't see any effect of any cuts on social services causing young offenders to be committing crime less or more.
Mr Gravelle: Have I got a little more time?
The Chair: Yes.
Mr Gravelle: Can I ask you also, in terms of the review of policing that's going on across the province, obviously one of the aspects that is being looked at is having sort of alternative forms of revenue for the police forces. I think, again, there can be some concerns about that in terms of that taking the police away from their goals. I know they talk about maintaining core services and non-core services -- I just would like to have your opinion on the concept -- and literally charging for certain services that now simply have been part of the police activities and what your opinion is on seeking revenue by alternative sources.
Mrs Hudson: When I read some of the articles pertaining to alternative funding, I don't think it's appropriate at this point in time to comment on whether charging fees for an alarm system is appropriate or not. I'll have to be on the board to see if these are appropriate things to be done. I can't really comment on that.
Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South): Good morning. Further to Mr Gravelle's question about the effect of reduction in social assistance and its effect on the community and in essence on crime, you said you don't see an effect one way or another. What do you base that opinion on?
Mrs Hudson: Because my caseload and what I have been seeing in the office, I haven't seen any difference, and so I'm basing my opinion on what's in my office.
Mr Crozier: So it's practical, on-the-street experience?
Mrs Hudson: The same old story, so to speak.
Mr Crozier: The majority of members are appointed by the province. You'll be a provincial appointment. The majority of the expenses are paid by the municipality. I was on a police services board of a small community. In fact the size of your police force is about a third of the size of my whole community. How do you feel about the ratio of provincial appointments to local municipal appointments as compared to the ratio of funding? Do you think that municipalities should have more control over the appointments?
Mrs Hudson: I think that's provincial legislation based upon the Constitution. I can't say how I feel about that, because I think it's a constitutional matter.
Mr Crozier: We are free to give our opinions. Does that mean though -- I don't mean to be pressing about it, I'm curious -- that you just simply don't have an opinion or that you feel that you --
Mrs Hudson: I think I should work within the guidelines of the government, because if it's a constitutional matter whether the provincial government should have a greater say on the police services, then so be it.
Mr Crozier: You're correct, it is a matter of legislation, which can be changed of course. I was just curious how you felt about it. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr Crozier. We'll move on.
Mr Silipo: Mrs Hudson, good morning. Could you tell us, please, if you are now or have ever been a member of any political party?
Mrs Hudson: No.
Mr Silipo: Could you talk to us, please --
Mrs Hudson: Excuse me. I want to say that I was a member of a political party about 15 years ago, when I was living in the Rosedale area. I was a cardholder, if that's what you call a member.
Mr Silipo: Yes.
Mrs Hudson: I am no longer a cardholder of a party.
Mr Silipo: You were a member of which political party?
Mrs Hudson: The PCs.
Mr Silipo: I want to just pursue a couple of the areas that have already been touched on. First, let me just say that my impression from what you've said and your résumé is that you bring a fair amount of expertise in terms of work in this area. I don't know if you'd be the first person who's been a police officer appointed to this board -- you certainly would be the only one currently -- but also your volunteer work brings an interesting perspective. My impression is that the work you have done has been very much behind the scenes. You're going into a board that, whether we like it or not, is very much in the public limelight for a variety of reasons. I'd just like you to talk a little about that, about your level of comfort going into that.
Obviously, since you're here, you feel you are comfortable with that, but I'd like you to talk about how you see yourself dealing with that. I don't have to tell you that you would be filling a vacancy, a position that was held by someone who, whatever one can say about him, certainly had no hesitation in speaking his mind on various issues, and I say that without passing judgement of any kind on Mr Minors. I think it's a real issue that you're going to have to deal with, that somebody's going to ask you at some point in some way, and I wanted to ask you here.
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Mrs Hudson: I know it's a challenge, but I'm willing to face a challenge. I'm willing to learn as I go along and I'm a quick learner. I realize that it will be a challenge and I'm expected to perform. That I'll do. I've done so on many occasions in other jobs and I don't anticipate any really big problems.
Mr Silipo: You'll be stepping into what is, in my view, a very political function, small-p political; I'm not talking here about about partisan politics at all. In listening to some of the answers that you've given to some of the questions around funding etc, I want to pursue those. I appreciate that in some areas you may not have enough information on which you can make a decision or take a position, but I also want to suggest that you're not going to have that ability for very long. Your opinion is going to be sought. Your views are going to be sought. You're going to have to take positions.
I just want to hear a little bit more about what you think of, first, the whole general level of funding that exists with police services. We have a government that went into the last election and committed itself to maintaining funding for law enforcement. We have police associations, the provincial one and the Metro one, which you'll be dealing with, that have used words like "betrayal" in describing the actions of Mike Harris and Mr Runciman in cutting funding to police services. As a member of the board, whether you like it or not, you're going to have to take positions on that at some point. I'd like to hear a little more about what you think. Can that action from the government continue as far as you're concerned? Can those cuts continue and we still have a level of police services in Metro Toronto that is adequate?
Mrs Hudson: The cuts were necessary. If the government doesn't have any money, then the cuts are necessary. We have to look at means where we can still keep an effective police force. I really can't comment on that until I see areas in the police force where there are duplications or areas where we could cut without damaging the security of society.
Mr Silipo: Do you think it's okay for police officers to have to pay a user fee of $200 when they apply to be considered for a job as a police officer?
Mrs Hudson: My opinion? Why not? If you're going to a university, you have to pay a user fee.
Mr Silipo: This is not for training; there's another fee for that we could talk about. I'm talking about the processing of a job application. It's different than going to university. When you applied for your current position as the admissions clerk, did you have to pay a fee?
Mrs Hudson: No, I didn't have to.
Mr Silipo: Do you think that people applying for jobs like police officers should have to pay a fee to have their job application processed?
Mrs Hudson: I have to look at the economic climate. We're in a tough economic climate and if these are areas where we can find funding, perhaps a $200 fee is not a bad idea.
Mr Silipo: So you would support user fees as a way to deal with the cuts in police services budgets?
Mrs Hudson: I can't at this point in time, but to be realistic, where's the money going to come from? You have look at areas where we can get the money.
Mr Silipo: These are issues you're going to be confronted with very quickly if you get appointed to this position. You may be able to not state an opinion on these things firmly today, but you're not going to have that luxury, I suggest, for very long.
Mrs Hudson: I understand that.
Mr Silipo: One of the other areas I want to touch on you talked about earlier, ie, the question of not just the black community but the whole issue of relationships between the police in Metropolitan Toronto and a number of the communities, particularly the visible minority communities. I'd like you to talk a little more about what you as a member of the board would do individually and what kinds of things you would urge the board to do to improve the relationship between the police and the various communities. We hear almost daily, unfortunately, of incidents that take place that result in parents of victims or relatives of victims feeling that there is racism within the police services. Leaving aside whether that's true or not, that feeling is there, that sense is there, and I just would like to know what you see as your role as a member of this board in dealing with that issue.
Mrs Hudson: I think my role will be listening to the community -- my community -- and bringing ideas. If training is necessary for police officers, then maybe that would be a suggestion. But my focus really is to bring peace within my community and allow a bridge between the police and my community.
Mr Silipo: Do you believe there has been systemic racism in the police services in Metropolitan Toronto?
Mrs Hudson: I can't answer that question without knowing. I have never been in the police force, I have never experienced racism from the police, so I can't really answer that question. If I'm selected and sit on the board, then I can look at things that are happening and analyse whether this is true.
Mr Silipo: What's your impression, as a member of the public, of the state of relationships and the issue of racism?
Mrs Hudson: As I said before, I have never had any problems with police officers, I have never had any dealings where I suspect racism exists, so I can't answer that question. If racism was forced upon me or I was confronted in my years in Canada, then I certainly could answer that question, but I've never had to.
Mr Silipo: Do you support or oppose the concept of civilian governance of police in the province, ie, that the governing structure should continue as it is but also that in terms of incidents that occur there ought to continue to be an ability by people outside of the force to review actions that police officers take?
Mrs Hudson: Again, I can't answer without knowing the depths and knowing how the civilian board works. I can't answer that question.
Mr Silipo: You're going to be going into a situation where you will have to deal with those issues. I wouldn't expect you to have full, fleshed-out positions. I have to tell you I'm a little surprised you don't have some views or some thoughts on those because those are very much some of the issues that are going to be on your plate.
Mrs Hudson: There was a review paper recently in June where the government is looking at budgeting. They're looking at the civilian board. Those things are in progress. They are working in progress now and I can't answer any question regarding that because there is a paper out on what the government is looking at.
The Chair: Ms Hudson, the time allotted for your appearance before the committee has been used up. Thank you very much for appearing before the committee today.
Mrs Hudson: Thank you for having me.
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JAMES CLARK
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: James Clark, intended appointee as member, City of Kingston Police Services Board.
The Chair: Welcome to the committee this morning. We appreciate your presence here. If you wish, you can make a few opening remarks and then we'll get on with the interview.
Mr James Clark: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman and members of the committee. I understand you have a copy of the brief résumé I submitted for your consideration. I won't take the time to reiterate all of those things you have in front of you. As you can gather from what has been submitted, however, I've been quite active and involved in community service over a number of years.
I have lived in Kingston essentially all of my life. For the past six or seven years, I've been a resident of Pittsburgh township. Pittsburgh township is one of the adjoining municipalities which has entered into a restructuring arrangement or partnership with the municipality of Kingston.
As a lifelong resident of Kingston, I'm certainly familiar with the community. My familiarity, however, with the Kingston police services is somewhat limited. Having submitted my name to the committee for consideration, I wasn't aware of whether it was appropriate at the time to discuss any potential appointment with the police chief or with the chairman of the present Kingston Police Services Board, so at the moment my knowledge of local police services has been rather limited to that which most residents would be familiar with through the news, the media, the press, what have you.
This past week, however, I did have the opportunity to meet with the current chair of the police services board in Kingston. I also had the opportunity to meet with the chief of police. In preparation for this meeting, I have attempted to learn as much as I possibly can about the operation of the Kingston police services in Kingston. I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have to the best of my ability.
Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings): Good morning, Mr Clark. How does your business background give you an asset to sit on this board?
Mr Clark: I've been directly in business for the past 16 years. I've certainly had the opportunity to implement a lot of theoretical things that I might have learned in school and what not in terms of business practices and management practices, so I understand what works in reality and what doesn't work in reality. I certainly understand the whole process of budgeting and reading a financial statement.
In my own work, my brother and I are business partners. We own the company St Lawrence Cruise Lines. I'm particularly involved in marketing, advertising, personnel, media relations and that sort of thing. My brother looks after the operational side. I think a lot of the skills that I've developed in those areas would be beneficial to sitting on the police services committee.
Mr Preston: What are the specific concerns regarding policing in your community?
Mr Clark: I think the big concern and the big issue really has to do with this new restructuring program that's taking place in Kingston. There has been, as long as I can remember, dating back to the 1970s and I'm sure even before then, a desire of a number of people in that whole area to amalgamate, or for annexation. These were words that people were uncomfortable with. In the past two years the municipalities of Kingston, first of all, and the adjoining municipalities have come together, taken a look at the governance of that area and come to the conclusion that it makes a great deal of sense for them to come together in a new partnership.
When they do that, it raises a whole number of issues. We have a municipal police force in Kingston. Kingston township has contracts with the OPP and the OPP also look after the policing of Pittsburgh township. There is a transition committee which currently exists, consisting of the mayor and the two reeves of the townships, and they will have to deal with a whole host of issues. Obviously, one of the issues that's going to have to be dealt with is the issue of policing for that new community. I think that's one of the major issues.
Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber): Why do you feel you are qualified to represent your community as a member of the police services board?
Mr Clark: I suppose, first of all, because I have a very keen interest in the Kingston community. I've been particularly active for a number of years in the community. The idea of a safe community is one that I cherish a great deal and one that I would like to see preserved.
I have a number of skills that I've developed over the years. I was a teacher at St Lawrence College for 18 years, and I was involved in a number of things. For the first two years while teaching at St Lawrence College, I taught inmates in the penitentiary. I was responsible for the training of faculty members at St Lawrence College. I was responsible for their professional development, for their orientation.
I spent a few years as a coordinator of the correctional worker program. I was involved in setting up group homes and placements for students who were involved in corrections. I'm familiar with that area.
I was also involved in a number of projects related to crime prevention. A colleague and I initiated a program called a detached worker program. It basically was an attempt to identify -- I don't like to use the term, but -- pre-delinquent youth, youth who were having a number of difficulties and, if they continued, there was a likelihood they might find themselves in trouble. We were, through the school system, able to identify some of those children who were having difficulty. We matched them up with youth workers, with correctional workers and so on, on a one-to-one basis, identified the inappropriate behaviour, established contracts and tried to eliminate some of that inappropriate behaviour.
The bottom line is that I've been involved in a number of those things, but to add to that, the teaching responsibilities I had at St Lawrence College had to do with a lot of organizational things such as leadership and motivation and decision-making and problem-solving and conflict resolution and those kinds of things. I'd like to think that I have some skill in those areas and I think that would be useful to the police services board.
Mr Ford: It sounds like you do have a few skills there.
The Chair: Any more questions?
Mr Bob Wood: We'll reserve the balance of our time.
Mr Bartolucci: Thank you very much for presenting before us this morning. I look at your résumé and I see you're a former alderman of the city of Kingston. How many terms?
Mr Clark: Just one term, from 1978 to 1980.
Mr Bartolucci: At that time, did you have any interest in serving as a city-council-appointed member?
Mr Clark: Had it worked out, I would have been interested, but the way those things were determined, rookie aldermen were not likely to end up on the police commission at the time.
Mr Bartolucci: Being a former alderman, I probably know what committee you got on. We won't talk about that here.
In your one term, you probably debated the idea around the council table about the representation proportions on police services boards. Are you in agreement with the way it's designated now, as the three and two?
Mr Clark: We didn't debate that at the time and I don't know the answer to that question. I understand that because municipalities essentially pay the shot, they would like to have more representation on the police services board. On the other hand, I also recognize that provincial legislation governs, through the Police Services Act, the activities of the police services board and that the province expects certain standards to be adhered to. At the moment there are some checks and balances in the system the way it exists. Having not sat on the police commission, I don't know the answer to that question. I know it's an issue. I don't have enough information to really give an opinion as to what would be best, but it's obviously something that should be explored.
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Mr Bartolucci: You said you met with the present chair of the board and the police chief.
Mr Clark: Yes.
Mr Bartolucci: Are they in favour of your appointment, if it happens? Did you talk to them about that?
Mr Clark: That really wasn't discussed. They were very cooperative. I think they're anxious to have the final member of that board. Who that might be, they really haven't said.
Mr Bartolucci: Have you known both of them for several years?
Mr Clark: I haven't known either of them.
Mr Bartolucci: Just one final question: What do you feel about community-based policing in Kingston? Should it be enhanced?
Mr Clark: I like the idea of community-based policing. It's hard to get a handle on exactly what community-based policing is, because I think it's unique from community to community. I know that the chief of police is a very strong advocate of community-based policing. We spent some time talking about the kinds of activities that Kingston police are involved in in that regard. I think it adds a whole other dimension, the dimension of prevention of crime, familiarity with the community, being an integral part of the community, and anything you can do in that regard has got to be of benefit to any community, quite frankly.
Mr Crozier: Good morning, sir. I see that you were a former commissioner on the St Lawrence Parks Commission. When was that?
Mr Clark: Oh, goodness gracious.
Mr Crozier: It was that long ago?
Mr Clark: I'm not exactly sure, but it would have been around 1983 or 1984, something like that.
Mr Crozier: I was curious, because this committee carried out an extensive review of the St Lawrence Parks Commission just a couple of years ago, and the commission was not without some considerable problems. I just wondered where your relationship and serving on that was relative to the --
Mr Clark: Actually, the chairman at the time was Jimmy Auld, so it was that long ago.
Mr Crozier: Does the fact that there are, what, two federal prisons within the municipal boundary of the city of --
Mr Clark: Seven.
Mr Crozier: Seven within the larger area. I'm thinking of downtown Kingston. There are that many?
Mr Clark: There are that many.
Mr Crozier: Does that present any unique problems when it comes to policing in the city of Kingston?
Mr Clark: I think it does. I think it puts an extraordinary demand on the Kingston police. Years ago -- it's not in my résumé. I have been involved in the penitentiary service. I worked for the penitentiary service very early on, at Millhaven penitentiary. I was involved with the John Howard Society -- I am a past president of the John Howard Society -- and worked with some parolees.
Years ago, inmates leaving the penitentiaries would go home, back to the communities they originally came from. More recently, there's a tendency for them to stay in the Kingston area. Obviously, we have a disproportionate number of inmates in the Kingston area. It does put an added demand on our police services. It's a concern. It's a concern for the people of the community.
Mr Crozier: Having been a past president of the John Howard Society, do you have any comment on, as I perceive it, the move today towards incarceration as opposed to rehabilitation; in other words, lock them up and throw the key away? Are you still involved with the John Howard Society?
Mr Clark: No, I'm not, but I'm certainly opposed to that whole concept of lock them up and throw the key away. They're going to get out eventually, and I think the programs that penitentiaries and so on put on are very useful. There are all kinds of rehabilitation programs that are effective and that work well, and I think we should be encouraging those kinds of programs.
Mr Crozier: I ask that knowing you won't have any direct control over it as a member of the police services board, but I think your attitude towards it, the advice you can give in the whole area of policing, would be beneficial.
Mr Silipo: Mr Clark, good morning. Could you tell us, please, if you are now or ever have been a member of any political party?
Mr Clark: I couldn't tell you whether I am at the moment. I have certainly, with the odd exception, always voted Conservative. Whether I am a card-carrying member or not usually depends on whether the constituency has caught up with me to pay my dues, and I'm not sure whether they've caught up with me recently.
Mr Silipo: I know that problem.
Let's talk about budgets. You probably know, from discussions you've had, about the level of cuts that have affected the Kingston area in terms of police services budgets: $1.2 million in cuts this year. What's your sense of how that's going to impact on the level of police services in Kingston and area?
Mr Clark: It's a big cut for Kingston. There was a tremendous demand on the municipality of Kingston to produce a zero budget increase this past year. I'm sure, through compromise and negotiation, the Kingston police services board agreed to cut that budget by $1.2 million.
I understand that the Kingston community is particularly pleased with police services in Kingston, that they're satisfied. A recent poll indicated that 87% of the people in the community are satisfied with police services. I think a cut of that extent will no doubt affect the ability of the police to carry out the kinds of things they should.
The chief of police, in our discussion, is of the opinion that they've been able to manage. I'm also aware that 92% of the budget has to do with the wages and benefits and that there's very little room to cut. I know from talking with the chief that in 1995 they had an agreement to hire eight new constables, and then in 1996 when they did experience the cut of $1.2 million, through early retirements and that sort of thing they lost seven senior officers, something in the order of 125 years of senior police service. That sort of loss will have an effect, I believe. I don't think the rest is being perceived by the community at this point in time, but that sort of loss is a big loss to the Kingston community.
Mr Silipo: And presumably, if there are further cuts, that's going to make the situation not just worse, but untenable.
Mr Clark: I don't have enough information to answer that with the kind of knowledge I should have in that area. But you would want to take a very hard look at any further cuts, for sure.
Mr Silipo: Are you familiar with the traffic offender program that's been set up in Kingston?
Mr Clark: Yes, somewhat.
Mr Silipo: You probably know more about it than I do, then, but my understanding is that under this program, speeders are charged $55 and offered a driving course rather than receiving demerit points and provincial fines. The impact is that the money that flows into that stays with the Kingston police rather than going to the provincial coffers. What's your view of that?
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Mr Clark: That particular program I think is a good program. I like the concept of the educational component that's associated with it. I think it is an alternative source of funding that works and works well because of the educational component that's associated with it.
Mr Silipo: Is the keeping of the money locally a bit of a slap in the face to the provincial level?
Mr Clark: That's terrific. As far as the Kingston police services is concerned, it's terrific that they're getting to keep the money.
Mr Silipo: I'm sure it is. I gather that this year it will total about $275,000.
Mr Clark: That's what I understand.
Mr Silipo: On this whole question, just to go on from there, in terms of where you would draw the line as to of what is appropriate and what isn't appropriate as far as alternative ways of financing police services, obviously there is a very clear direction from this government, I would argue, that that should be the way of the future, and many people have made many salient points in opposition to that. I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts about what is appropriate in terms of either user fees or any other form of generating funds that police services should get into, and when we have crossed the line.
Mr Clark: I think it's quite legitimate to ask departments, whatever department it happens to be, to look for creative sources of funding. By the same token, the funding of something like police services, which is based on a fair means of raising taxes -- I think taxpayers expect when they pay taxes that they're going to receive certain services. One of the services they expect they will receive as a result of having paid taxes is police services, and I like that concept. But by the same token, to ask departments to look for creative sources of funding, I think they should.
In the case of Kingston, where they have come upon this traffic offender program with the educational component which may reduce traffic offences, I think that's terrific. There may be all kinds other creative opportunities there for alternative sources of funding.
You asked where it crosses the line. I think where some of those things cross the line is when it becomes very commercialized. I know in Kingston also we have the Kiwanis Club, which has donated I have no idea how much money, but they've been very much behind the community volunteer policing of the community. They now have something like 40 volunteers who are out doing foot patrol and vehicle patrol and that sort of thing of the Kingston community, all funded by the Kiwanis Club. That's terrific, in my view.
Mr Silipo: How would you describe the level of relationships in Kingston between the police force and the communities, particularly the minority communities? I appreciate that the dynamics in Kingston may not be the same as in an area like Metropolitan Toronto.
Mr Clark: As I said earlier, I think there's a high level of satisfaction on the part of the community respect for the Kingston police. In my experience, in all of the years that I've been in Kingston, I think the Kingston police have had a fantastic relationship with the community. You are probably aware that Kingston recently hired a new police chief. I've had the opportunity not only to sit down and talk with him, but he did provide me with a copy of his résumé and so on. He has an absolutely incredible, interesting background when it comes to equity employment and those kinds of things, so I think we can expect some very good things of him in the future.
The Chair: If there are no further questions, Mr Clark, thank you for your appearance before the committee and for your thoughtful responses. We appreciate it.
JONAS SHEPHERD
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition: Jonas Shepherd, intended appointee as member, Council of the College of Chiropodists of Ontario.
The Chair: Mr Shepherd, welcome to the committee this morning. We are glad you're here. If you wish to make a few opening comments, please feel free to do so.
Rev Jonas Shepherd: A preacher brings a few notes with him. I was feeling a little, when I was walking into this place, like Daniel must have felt walking into the lions' den. But the lions never offered him coffee when he came in, so I feel a little better.
I came to Canada, as a boy of 14 approaching 15, in 1929 when the Canadian government was bringing boatloads of us from Great Britain and Europe, specifying we must work on farms for at least five years and then we'd be free to stay and become citizens. They made contracts for us with farmers for the tremendous pay of $10 a month plus room and board, which then we thought wasn't bad at all. But then at the time of the crash, most of the farmers found it almost impossible to even meet the terms of that contract, so I found myself without work in the middle of the crash, working for individual farmers a day at a time, part-time labouring and also working in print shops. In spite of those difficult days, I want to say that Canada's been good to me. I could have done nothing better than apply myself to work my way, even in those years, past the high school level and theological schools to the master's degree level, concluding my schooling at Knox College here in Toronto.
With the outbreak of the Second World War, I served with the Irish Regiment of Canada, Toronto unit, as stretcher-bearer, being honoured by receiving the Military Medal from King George VI in a decorative ceremony at Buckingham Palace on my way home. I thought that was a distinctive honour until I discovered there were 280 other men receiving similar honours at the same parade.
We acquired very little in the way of medical training as far as stretcher-bearers in the field were concerned. When we had a casualty, all we did was stop the bleeding, splint 'em, keep them warm and get them out. On the medical officer's staff, I discovered that Napoleon wasn't telling the truth when he said an army travels on its stomach. I sure discovered that soldiers travelled on their feet. Multiplied problems were experienced then, and now, by the old vets as they get older. I did considerable in the way of amateur massaging of feet, under the very strict observation of a very strict medical officer. He drove me nuts.
Taken again on strength after the war on the now reserve regiment, still the Toronto Irish, I suddenly jumped from the rank of corporal to that of captain. The boys who served with me in the line were quite impressed with my decorations on my shoulder. I never told them I was just a buck private in the chaplaincy, but that was all right.
I've served as pastor in churches in Ontario, Edmonton and Grand Cayman Island. While in the British West Indies I discovered a small army of underprivileged children, severely retarded mentally, disabilities associated with hip problems -- we had to teach them how to stand and had a little classroom fixed up with overhead ropes and overhead ladders for them to get walking and so forth -- and sight, and almost impossible to stumble away at some reading. In our church we organized this Lighthouse School, which turned out to be a tremendous thing, and has in intervening years, for kids with all sorts of foot problems.
Now that I'm in retirement -- my wife doesn't believe that's true -- I've been occupied on Mr Jackson's committee of activity with seniors and their problems, mainly occupied with our senior citizens annual seminar. Many of them, I discover, have foot problems. Everybody tells us that we oldsters -- now I'm 82 -- get soft up here, but I find we get soft at the other end. It's amazing how much this is so. My legs started to go first, gentlemen, and so will yours. Maybe your heads too.
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After three years of that seminar committee, I complained that the committee was sending home between 400 and 600 old folk every year full of warnings about cancer and fellows who were operating scams to rob them and everything, and we ought to send them home feeling good instead of sorry for themselves. Well, that meant I was stuck to wind up the presentations. Gentlemen, it's always risky to urge something else on a committee level. You get stuck with a job you didn't expect. Anyway, we've done this for eight years. I even have a sample from one of the speeches if you want it. Nobody will ask me for that.
While I lack expertise in this particular area of feet, I have been for several years a recipient of treatment myself. I believe this will enable me to be of additional service to the particular committee, particularly after occupying myself for about 50 years in the areas of counselling, particularly with problem cases. I can make a contribution here and I would like the privilege of doing so.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr Shepherd. Are there any questions?
Mr Preston: Well, sir, a very good presentation. I'm very sorry I missed the first part of it, but I'm happy to hear you admit that you don't know anything about your feet; very few people do. But that really doesn't matter in this situation, because you're going to be there to represent the consumer. What do you feel your role should be as a representative of the consumer?
Mr Shepherd: I have one basic concern. When I went to one person to assist me doing a job -- by the way, I was taking care of a couple of thick toenails for years, but gradually I found they were getting farther away; either that or there was an interruption in the middle and it was harder to get there. So I did get some professional help and soon discovered that they were able to help me in a wonderful fashion. But the moment that took place, somehow or other word got around in the community and there were at least six professionals, whatever name they used -- they were long words that I'd never heard before -- who specialized in this. I asked them, "Do you have a sheet of paper or anything?" as far as authority is concerned to exercise this particular what I think is a medical concern. They always gave me an evasive answer.
I think they're coming out of the woods to take care of these needs of these dear old people they're talking about. I think that's an area that absolutely must be looked into.
Mr Newman: I just want to begin by thanking Reverend Shepherd for your wise counsel and advice there for the future. My question is, as a member of your community, how do you feel that you'll represent a broad community perspective while serving on the Council of the College of Chiropodists?
Mr Shepherd: I think the one issue I mentioned is a vital one, and that would be my number one priority. But there are a lot of people out there my age and older, and even a lot younger, who have a need of this sort of attention who just aren't getting it. Somehow or other we need to get around to these people that there is professional attention for these folk which won't cost them that much.
Mr Ford: Mr Shepherd, I have to tell you I had a question here but I just want to thank you for being you, because you're a gentleman I consider has an extensive background in public service and it's just a pleasure having you here and talking to you. I think this feeling, as you can see, generates around this room. I just want to thank you for coming. I have no further questions.
Mr Shepherd: Thank you. The lions' den isn't so bad.
The Chair: We're only halfway through.
Mr Ford: I think he can well handle himself, believe me.
Mr Bob Wood: We will reserve the balance of our time.
Mr Crozier: Good morning, sir, and welcome. I need your help in this area. What's the difference between a chiropodist and a podiatrist?
Mr Shepherd: Am I supposed to know that answer, Mr Chairman?
Mr Crozier: No, no.
Mr Shepherd: I think the one --
Mr Crozier: The point is, sir, I don't know the difference, so --
Mr Shepherd: I think the one is authorized to do surgery and the other is not.
Mr Crozier: Okay. It's my understanding, and again I need your help, this is a regulated health profession of course, and it has its own college. Are they paid, do you know, by OHIP, by our normal medical services?
Mr Shepherd: I've been advised that it's not, but I'm one of those fortunate people who have the benefit of the -- I'm a VIP, in case you don't know it, the veterans' independence program. That takes care of everything that OHIP doesn't. That's all I can say about that. I think it should be.
Mr Crozier: That was my next question: Do you consider it a serious and widespread enough need that it should be? You've answered that you think it should. Would you then be active in trying to convince the Ministry of Health that this should be covered by OHIP?
Mr Shepherd: I'm not sure whether that would be my area of concern, but it certainly would overlap it. What I would do immediately, I can't say.
Mr Crozier: Well, you've helped me, anyway, and I appreciate that.
Mr Gravelle: Good morning, Rev Shepherd, and welcome. I'm sure you're going to be an excellent addition to this group and I'm sure you'll give them very wise counsel as well. You mentioned in your opening remarks that you were serving on Minister Jackson's committee on seniors' issues.
Mr Shepherd: That's right.
Mr Gravelle: How did that come about? Were you invited to sit on that? I'm just curious how that came about.
Mr Shepherd: I'm not sure. I had a couple of older folk visit me one day -- well, those ladies would be insulted if I called them older people -- who said they needed help. They wanted to know, was I very busy? Well, of course preachers always shoot a line about how desperately busy they are. But they wanted me to get on this committee. That's just how it happened. Cam Jackson's one man who's done a tremendous amount of work in the area of senior citizens. That is how this came about, I think.
Mr Gravelle: I'm curious about some of the things that have gone on on that panel, and it actually ties into a health question. One of the issues I've heard about this past summer has been the addition of user fees to the seniors in terms of the Ontario drug benefit plan. July 15, I believe, was the day it started happening. We had a large number of seniors who were pretty upset and pretty shaken to discover they had to start paying a $2 user fee or they had to pay the $100 fee up front, even though some of them were in the wrong income category.
I realize you speak to a lot of seniors' groups. Is that an issue you've heard a lot about in the seniors' community as you've gone around, and was it an issue you discussed on Mr Jackson's panel?
Mr Shepherd: Yes, I've found it's a subject everywhere. Even in our particular constituency, some folk are worried. As I said, I'm one of the fortunate ones: This has taken care of me, my Green Shield that is issued to me.
I don't think I'd mind something like $2 for a visit to a professional office like that. However, that is a problem for a lot of folk on such limited income. I would be interested, though, in associating myself with an appeal for consideration of this particular item. My own member has known that, that I was concerned about it for a long time.
Mr Gravelle: We heard from people, many of whom are on a fixed income and low income, and a $2 fee per prescription was something they found very difficult. The larger problem was that a lot of them were put in the wrong category of income and they were forced to pay $100 up front even though they shouldn't have. A lot of them didn't have that level of income, and we were concerned that they weren't able to get the prescriptions they needed. It was a big issue in our riding, and we understand that about 40,000 people across the province were miscategorized, which caused a great many problems. I'm just curious about whether that's been a big issue and how you felt about it.
Mr Shepherd: I think a lot has to be put into it, and both sides should be getting their heads together and doing something to alleviate this thing. This is what I've been saying.
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Mr Silipo: Rev Shepherd, good morning. I was interested very much in your observation about which of our extremities goes first. I suspect there may be a different rule for politicians, though, than the one you describe.
Let me ask you the question I ask all people who come before us. Are you now or have you ever been a member of a political party?
Mr Shepherd: Yes.
Mr Silipo: Which would that be?
Mr Shepherd: I think they would call me a card-carrying member of the Conservative Party.
Mr Silipo: Fair enough. You mentioned your work and relationship with Mr Jackson. Was it through Mr Jackson that you became interested in this particular position?
Mr Shepherd: I'm not aware, really. I agree that may have been, but somebody from the committee phoned me and informed me that my name had been mentioned. I'm not denying that. It may have been.
Mr Silipo: That's fine. You mentioned that one of your first areas in terms of priorities would be to look at the question of -- I would use the term "unlicensed practitioners." I don't know if that captures what you were saying. I hope it does. What do you think needs to be done in that area? This is not, as some of my colleagues mentioned earlier, necessarily an area of health care that many of us would put at the top of our list as something that we would know about, and I'm quite prepared to admit my ignorance of a lot of the work that's done in this area. Is there any room, in your view, for people outside the profession to exercise any parts of this work, or would your approach be to say that people who do this work ought to be strictly licensed practitioners?
Mr Shepherd: Surely there's a forum where people who do mere massage -- as I said, in the army sort of thing. But this certainly wouldn't equip me in any way to do anything else, maybe to try to ease a few aches by loosening up some part of the foot, but anything beyond that should certainly be a licensed practitioner.
The Chair: Rev Shepherd, thank you for coming before the committee. We enjoyed your presence here this morning.
Mr Shepherd: Can I have another coffee?
The Chair: I just tried to get one and there's none left.
That completes the review of intended appointments. We move to the next item on the agenda, which is the issue of concurrences. Shall we deal first with Ms Hudson?
Mr Preston: I'll move concurrence.
Mr Newman: Can we have a recorded vote?
The Chair: Sure.
Mr Preston has moved concurrence in the appointment of Ms Hudson. Any comments? Do you want to reserve your comments?
Mr Preston: I'll reserve the comments.
Mr Silipo: I just want to say briefly that I will be supporting the appointment of Mrs Hudson, but I also want to put on the record some concerns I have. They're not sufficient for me to vote against the appointment, but I was concerned and I would be remiss if I didn't put on the record what seemed to me to be either a hesitation or not having gotten into some of the issues that, as I pointed out in my questions to her, she will have to deal with. I say this with all due respect to my colleagues, I think as the only member from Metro Toronto here --
Mr Newman: There are two others.
Mr Silipo: My apologies. I do believe we all understand the dynamics of the police services board in Metro Toronto. I want to wish Ms Hudson well, because I certainly expect that her appointment will carry here today, but I do have some reservations. I hope she uses the energy which she obviously has to address some of those. If she does that, she could become a very useful member of that board.
The Chair: Any other comments on Ms Hudson? You wanted a recorded vote?
Mr Bob Wood: We do require a recorded vote, Mr Chair.
Ayes
Bartolucci, Crozier, DeFaria, Ford, Fox, Gravelle, Bert Johnson, Newman, Preston, Silipo, Bob Wood.
The Chair: It's unanimous.
The second intended appointment was Mr Clark to the City of Kingston Police Services Board.
Mr Bob Wood: I move concurrence in the intended appointment of Mr Clark.
Mr Bartolucci: A recorded vote, please, Mr Chair. We need that.
The Chair: Are there any comments, first of all, on the motion of Mr Wood? If not, are you ready for the question?
Ayes
Bartolucci, Crozier, DeFaria, Ford, Fox, Gravelle, Bert Johnson, Newman, Preston, Silipo, Bob Wood.
The Chair: That's unanimous agreement.
The final concurrence is for Mr Jonas Shepherd.
Mr Bob Wood: I move concurrence in the intended appointment of Mr Shepherd.
The Chair: You've heard the motion. Any comments on it? All those in favour? Opposed? It's carried unanimously.
Mr Ford: We don't want to record that one?
The Chair: Nobody asked for it. Is there any other business before the committee?
Mr Bob Wood: Can we have a brief discussion of the subcommittee after this committee completes?
The Chair: Right now. Thank you all very much. We're adjourned.
The committee adjourned at 1127.