INTENDED
APPOINTMENTS
HANS KELLER
CONTENTS
Wednesday 24 January 1996
Subcommittee reports
Intended appointments
Hans Keller, City of Timmins Police Services Board
Pierre Lalonde, Ontario Institute for Studies in Education Board of Governors,
Ronald Sutherland, Town of Amherstburg Police Services Board
Neill Iscoe, Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation
Jeffrey Twinn, Pesticides Advisory Committee
Grahame Baskerville, Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton Police Services Board
Lawrence Keogh, Town of New Tecumseth Police Services Board
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Présidente: Laughren, Floyd (Nickel Belt ND)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Martin, Tony (Sault Ste Marie ND)
Bartolucci, Rick (Sudbury L)
*Crozier (Essex South / -Sud L)
*Ford, Douglas B. (Etobicoke-Humber PC)
*Fox, Gary (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings / Prince Edward-Lennox-Hastings-Sud PC)
*Gravelle, Michael (Port Arthur L)
*Johnson, Bert (Perth PC)
*Kormos, Peter (Welland-Thorold ND)
Laughren, Floyd (Nickel Belt ND)
*Leadston, Gary L. (Kitchener-Wilmot PC)
*Martin, Tony (Sault Ste Marie ND)
*Newman, Dan (Scarborough Centre / -Centre PC)
*Preston, Peter L. (Brant-Haldimand PC)
*Ross, Lillian (Mrs) (Hamilton West / -Ouest PC)
*Wood, Bob (London South / -Sud PC)
*In attendance / présents
Substitutions present / Membres remplaçants présents:
Churley, Marilyn (Riverdale ND) for Mr Laughren
Sergio, Mario (Yorkview L) for Mr Bartolucci
Hastings, John (Etobicoke-Rexdale PC) for Mr Newman and for Mr Bert Johnson
Parker, John L. (York East / -Est PC) for Mr Fox
Clerk / Greffière: Manikel, Tannis
Staff / Personnel: Pond, David, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1005 in committee room 1.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT
The Vice-Chair (Mr Tony Martin): Good morning. We'll begin the committee so we can get it over on time. The first piece of business this morning is the adoption of the subcommittee report. I'd ask that somebody perhaps read this into the record.
Mr Bob Wood (London South): I'd like to move that reading of the subcommittee report into the record be dispensed with. Everybody's got a copy and I think there's no point in reading it into the record.
The Vice-Chair: It's quite a lengthy document; it's three pages.
Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): Consent.
The Vice-Chair: Consent? Okay.
Mr Kormos: Yes, Chair, but please, three pages is not a lengthy document. Bill 26, at 211 pages long with a compendium of over 2,000 pages -- that's a lengthy document.
The Vice-Chair: I'll entertain a motion to adopt the subcommittee report.
Mr Bob Wood: I move that the subcommittee report be adopted.
The Vice-Chair: All those in favour? It's adopted.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
HANS KELLER
Review of intended appointment, selected by the third party: Hans Keller, intended appointee as member, City of Timmins Police Services Board.
The Vice-Chair: We'll move to our first appointee this morning, Mr Hans Keller. Welcome, Mr Keller, and we want to thank you for coming this morning to assist us in this very important process we go through here.
Mr Bob Wood: Mr Chair, Mr Keller wishes to make an opening statement.
The Vice-Chair: Go ahead, Mr Keller.
Mr Hans Keller: Good morning, honourable members, ladies and gentlemen. I'm sure you're aware why I'm here, and that is to assume a position as a board member on the Timmins police board. The present government feels I'm qualified to sit as a board member on the Timmins Police Services Board and so do I.
It was suggested by fellow associates and friends that I allow myself to stand as a potential candidate for board member on the Timmins police board. After careful consideration, I allowed myself to stand, knowing that consenting to an appointment would involve giving up some personal and business time. In short, it is time to give back to the community in which I have gained such an immeasurable amount of personal and business satisfaction.
By applying a strict ethic and commonsense approach to everyday matters, I have been able to develop my business to the point where my time is not required on a day-to-day basis. This, I feel, allows me ample time to sit as a board member.
My wife and I manage a company based in Timmins, a company called Erocon Corp, a land reclamation company specializing in mine closure work throughout Ontario and other provinces and associated with mining industries in these provinces. We've been conducting the business for 11 years, employing up to 100 people or more at any given time. Our gross annual payroll receipts are in excess of $2.5 million. As a team, we have goals, we identify them and we aggressively pursue them.
If and when I am appointed to the Timmins police board, my immediate goal will be to familiarize myself with the board's operation and function, gain the confidence of my fellow board members, and eventually get on with the board's business.
I guess that will be my opening. If I seem nervous or hesitant, you'll have to forgive me.
The Vice-Chair: Yes. We'll start the questioning this morning with the government caucus.
Mr Bob Wood: I'd like to put the first question, if I might. Mr Keller, what's your opinion of the existing police station in Timmins? Does the city, in your opinion, need a new building?
Mr Keller: I haven't had an opportunity to sit down with the present board members in Timmins. I'm aware of some of the publicity the issue has gotten in Timmins, but I at this time have not formed an opinion either way.
Mr Gary L. Leadston (Kitchener-Wilmot): Mr Keller, how do you see your role as a commissioner on the police services board? What would you assume would be the most important aspect of that role?
Mr Keller: Facilitating the board's business and complying with the present legislation and seeing that the police service carries out those duties as it's been laid out in the act.
Mr Peter Preston (Brant-Haldimand): How do you feel about the work the police are doing in the community, and how could the relationship between the police and the community be improved?
Mr Keller: Being a resident of Timmins and having had an opportunity to meet various police officers from time to time, in spot checks and the odd speeding ticket, I think they do a remarkably good job. I haven't heard of any incidents where there have been any controversial issues regarding, let's say, police brutality or questionable police practices.
Mrs Lillian Ross (Hamilton West): As a business owner, you have certain professional strengths you could bring to the board. How do you think they could be applied to the board, and what strengths would you bring?
Mr Keller: When I look at the complement of police officers in Timmins, it measures about 73, and their budget is approximately $6.8 million a year. The number of people and the size of the budget are familiar to me. Being in the position where I'm dealing with that many people or more and managing and budgeting a value of income higher than that, I feel I might be able to apply some of the things I have learned in the course of my business to the Timmins police board.
Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber): Mr Keller, have you ever been a victim of crime yourself?
Mr Keller: No, I have not. I was going to make a little joke, actually, but I don't think I will. I've been a victim of overtaxation, if that's a crime.
Mr Ford: No, we're just talking about crime itself.
Mr Keller: No, I have not.
The Vice-Chair: Anybody else from the government caucus? You have about four and a half minutes remaining on your time.
Mr Bob Wood: We'll reserve the balance of our time for possible future questions.
The Vice-Chair: Okay, then we'll move on to the Liberal caucus.
Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): Good morning, Mr Keller. I've read that the Timmins police force has a complement of 73 officers.
Mr Keller: That's correct.
Mr Gravelle: I am from northwestern Ontario, from Thunder Bay, so I know the situation in Thunder Bay in terms of the policing to some degree. Obviously, one of the concerns they have is that there's a need for more police, and they're trying to do some different kinds of policing. Do you have any sense in terms of whether the Timmins police force feels the need for more officers to do the job?
Mr Keller: At this time, I haven't been given an opportunity to examine the extent of the services offered in Timmins in the police service, only what one might read in the newspaper or hear on the radio, so I haven't really been able to formulate a direct opinion on whether the community might need more or less service. I don't know.
Mr Gravelle: Do you have any thoughts in terms of community policing? I don't know whether this is something that's actually happening in Timmins, but certainly in Thunder Bay they've moved back to a concept of community policing, where they've got policemen out on the beat. I wanted your opinion on it.
Mr Keller: I certainly support police on the beat. The more visible exposure the police have in the community, I would think the safer the citizens of the community would feel. I would, so I'm sure they would.
Mr Gravelle: One of the realities in our times is that there are always funding concerns in terms of whether there are enough funds to maintain the level of policing that has been promised. Of course this government, during the last election campaign, made it very clear that it would not in any way do anything that would reduce policing. Is that a concern in Timmins? Is this something the police services board fears now, a concern that there may be less money because the municipalities have less money?
Mr Keller: I think that's a concern for everyone in this day and age, but I can't speak with any direct knowledge of, let's say, the police department's concern or the board's concern at this time, because I haven't had an opportunity to sit down with any of them to discuss it or to look at any of the issues.
Mr Gravelle: You don't seem all that familiar with the policing situation or the police in Timmins, which strikes me as a little odd in terms of going on this particular board. I would tend to think you'd be more familiar with it. How did this appointment come about? Were you invited to --
Mr Keller: It was suggested by several friends in the community who have participated in other community ventures or positions. They felt I would be an excellent candidate to sit on the board based on my background experience in my business operation. Like I said before, after considerable thought I decided to let it stand because I do feel, as one of the silent majority in Ontario, that it's time we start to participate in the way our communities and municipalities are being run.
My lack of knowledge of the current operations of the city police department is likely a matter of fact, but it's one that I will aggressively pursue and inform myself exactly what the needs and potential or future needs will be.
Mr Gravelle: I certainly appreciate your honesty in that, but it does seem odd to be put in this position and not to be more familiar.
Mr Keller: I'm a strong proponent of law and order, and the first and utmost issue is for a municipality to feel safe in its surrounding.
Mr Gravelle: What's the policing situation like, in terms of crime and that, in Timmins? What are the major concerns with which you're familiar?
Mr Keller: I would say that in Timmins, like many other communities, there's a large number of break and enters, and this is one of the greatest concerns, I believe. Of course, you have the odd violent crime that occurs, which is unfortunate, but it does occur. Overall, I would say that the people in Timmins feel very secure with the service that so far is being exercised in Timmins by the police department. I certainly feel safe, and the people I come into contact with really do not have any complaints.
Mr Gravelle: Would it be fair to say that in terms of your philosophy on policing and on crime in general that you have a get-tough policy or "Be tougher"? I guess what I'm looking for is your philosophical position. You talk about believing in law and order, and I think we all do, but I'm trying to get at what that might mean in terms of your position and how you would reflect that on the board.
Mr Keller: As a member of the board, I would be sitting within a quorum and we would no doubt have to carry out what the Attorney General sets down as the punishment for the crime. I guess we all have -- how shall I say it? -- independent views on how law and order should be exercised and how it should be done, but I don't think at this time it would be appropriate for me to say because I don't think it's an issue.
Mr Mario Sergio (Yorkview): Mr Keller, how do you view the possibility of charging for some services provided by the police?
Mr Keller: I'm sorry. Could you repeat that, please?
Mr Sergio: How would you view the fact that the police department may be charging for some of their services?
Mr Keller: How do I feel that they will be charged for some of their services?
Mr Sergio: That they provide to the community, of course.
Mr Keller: I'm sorry. I don't understand that question.
Mr Sergio: Bill 26 may force police departments to charge for some of their services. How do you feel about that?
Mr Keller: I've been out of the country for about a month and a half and I haven't had an opportunity to review Bill 26 or to see what changes there are, and I'm sorry I wasn't made available with that information. If a municipality is to provide a service, it doesn't necessarily matter where the funds would be directed from.
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Mr Sergio: Do you think that taxes paid by taxpayers from residential or commercial, industrial, whatever -- businesses -- should be enough to cover those services or that citizens should be burdened to pay for some other services?
Mr Keller: I would think that the taxpayer feels he's certainly paid enough for the services he's presently getting. I'll stress the law and order issue again. When it comes to feeling safe within a community, if there is a shortfall of revenue and if people are given the choice of, "We'll do with less services and put up with the potential of more risk," I would say they may have to say, "We're going to have to set aside a little bit of extra funds to maintain the high level of service."
Mr Sergio: Would you go to the people and ask for their views before?
Mr Keller: Yes, of course. Sure.
Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South): Good morning, sir. Just a little further to what my colleague was saying, this may be an example of what my colleague was getting at. You have a business, and I don't know whether you have a burglar alarm, but if you do and if you had false alarms, do you feel the police services should charge for false alarms?
Mr Keller: Yes, I do. As a matter of fact, I have alarms in my businesses and in my home, and unfortunately they do go off from time to time. It's my responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen. If I take up the time of the police service, I'll have to pay for it.
Mr Crozier: Using that example, could I generalize and say that therefore you would be open to reviewing services the police provide for which you would charge an additional fee?
Mr Keller: Yes, I would.
Mr Crozier: If someone were from out of town and needed the services of the Timmins police, would you consider charging them a fee?
Mr Keller: I would say that if that's the consensus of the community, I guess they would have to. I'll have to go along with that.
Mr Crozier: I'm not trying to trap you or anything. I'm just trying to find out where you're coming from, that's all.
Mr Keller: I understand.
The Vice-Chair: That's the Liberals' time. Thank you very much. We'll move on to the New Democratic caucus and Ms Churley.
Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): Good morning. I'd like to ask you about a very specific area that is of great concern to me and many other women and of course their families as well across the province --
Interjection: And men.
Ms Churley: And men. I said "and their families." Don't get defensive. That is wife abuse and domestic violence. You mentioned in answer to a question earlier that from what you know about the scene in Timmins, there's the odd violent crime. I'd like to know your view, from what you know about violence against women and domestic violence in Timmins, around the need to have people on the police services board in Timmins and across the province who have a background in this area. The last question: Are you familiar with the new guidelines that our government brought in around police handling of wife assault?
Mr Keller: Just as a general overview, not anything specific that's been engrained in my mind. Number one, I abhor violence of any kind and I certainly abhor wife assault. Thank God, I've never resorted to committing that against my wife; if I did, I'd be dead. But I believe a severe penalty should be exacted upon the perpetrator of any crime, and wife assault is the same. They should be as severely punished for that.
Ms Churley: If I can follow up on this, there was a very striking documentary on CBC last night that focused on a particular woman whom the justice system basically failed throughout, from policing on down. She eventually got suicidal, made attempts with her child, went into hiding. It was a horrendous story. People who work in the field who were interviewed later said this is a very typical story. In fact, the crime itself is similar to others, but the implications around it are very complicated. So that's why I raised it as a particular area.
As a member of the board, if there is not a representative on your board who has some specific background in this area who can help with these specific problems, would you be willing to push for and make sure that there is somebody who has that kind of expertise on the board?
Mr Keller: I would certainly support having someone who's very knowledgeable in that field. If there's a high percentage of, say, wife assaults in the community, I would certainly favour supporting a specific person to address that and look after that issue.
Mr Kormos: Mr Keller, far be it from me to even think about making any inquiries about your speeding tickets.
Mr Keller: Oh, you saw my records, did you?
Mr Kormos: You prepared a résumé, a curriculum vitae, in October 1995. That obviously was in preparation for your interview with a representative of the ministry.
Mr Keller: Could you backtrack again?
Mr Kormos: Your résumé is dated October 1995. That was prepared as a result of your application for this position?
Mr Keller: I was asked to prepare that if I was prepared to let my name stand as a board member, yes.
Mr Kormos: There were no newspaper ads in Timmins regarding this position that you're aware of?
Mr Keller: No, I was not aware of that, if there were.
Mr Kormos: You were simply advised to apply for this position by colleagues and friends?
Mr Keller: No, I wasn't advised. I was asked if --
Mr Kormos: You were prevailed upon by colleagues and friends?
Mr Keller: I was asked if I would be interested in it, and after a couple of weeks of considering that --
Mr Kormos: And these colleagues and friends understood that there was going to be a new appointment to the police services board?
Mr Keller: I believe they did, yes.
Mr Kormos: Notwithstanding that the board already had a full complement?
Mr Keller: That I don't know.
Mr Kormos: You don't know about that?
Mr Keller: No, sir.
Mr Kormos: In preparing this résumé for this position, surely having been involved in the community as a business person as long as you have, you're involved in community activities?
Mr Keller: I've been very active and I've been very busy within my business. I've done a lot of travelling in the past and I haven't informed myself enough of what is going on in the community, but I have found more time and I see more time in the future for myself to get more involved.
Mr Kormos: Fair enough. You seem to have an interest in law-and-order issues, in crime and punishment, is that fair to say?
Mr Keller: Everybody does, yes.
Mr Kormos: You have an interest in that, but that interest wasn't strong enough that you'd want to get involved in, for instance, a board of directors of a women's shelter that accommodates battered women?
Mr Keller: I don't understand what you're getting at.
Mr Kormos: You've never been involved in programs, for instance, to help underprivileged youths, like Big Brothers?
Mr Keller: No.
Mr Kormos: Any other volunteer activities in the community?
Mr Keller: I would say no. I've been, again --
Mr Kormos: Fair enough. You've been very busy.
Mr Keller: I've been busy with my business, building it and trying to make it successful.
Mr Kormos: Fair enough, sir. You had a telephone interview only with a member of the minister's staff. Did you not expect to be interviewed in person?
Mr Keller: I didn't think that was an issue or was something even to consider.
Mr Kormos: Fair enough. How long was the telephone interview?
Mr Keller: I didn't time it.
Mr Kormos: Was it very long at all?
Mr Keller: It all depends on where you're coming from.
Mr Kormos: I'm asking you if it was very long at all. Did it seem to you to be a brief interview or a lengthy interview? I wasn't there.
Mr Keller: It didn't last 15 minutes, if that's what you're getting to.
Mr Kormos: Got you. Were you advised that you'd be attending at this hearing?
Mr Keller: I was informed after I allowed my name to stand that the --
Mr Kormos: Quite right. How long has it been since you were aware that you'd be appearing in front of this committee?
Mr Keller: I didn't get to finish my last question.
Mr Kormos: How long has it been since you were advised that you were going to be appearing in front of this committee?
Mr Keller: I would say that it was mid- to late December.
Mr Kormos: Quite right. And you know that this committee's obligation is to make inquiries of you as to your suitability to serve on the police services board?
Mr Keller: Well, I understand that, yes.
Mr Kormos: You weren't advised of that in December?
Mr Keller: I wasn't aware that I was going to be appearing before this panel here today.
Mr Kormos: Until when?
Mr Keller: Until, like I say, mid-December to late December.
Mr Kormos: And you were told and you were aware that this committee's responsibility was to make inquiries of you as to your suitability to serve on the police services board? Is that correct?
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Mr Keller: Yes.
Mr Kormos: You haven't read the Police Services Act in the period of time from December to today?
Mr Keller: I had a general overview of the act. I haven't committed it to memory.
Mr Kormos: Have you read the Police Services Act?
Mr Keller: Yes.
Mr Kormos: Who provided that to you?
Mr Keller: Actually, the mayor of Timmins did.
Mr Kormos: So you obviously went to him and told him about your appearance before this board.
Mr Keller: No, I didn't go to him.
Mr Kormos: He volunteered the act to you?
Mr Keller: He volunteered it. "Can I be of any assistance to you?" I said I would like to inform myself a little bit as to what's going on and what has to be done.
Mr Kormos: Fair enough. What other inquiries did you make besides obtaining a copy of the Police Services Act from the mayor?
Mr Keller: That was it.
Mr Kormos: You didn't visit any police station?
Mr Keller: No, sir.
Mr Kormos: You didn't talk to any police officers?
Mr Keller: I was out of the country.
Mr Kormos: You didn't talk to any police officers?
Mr Keller: No, sir.
Mr Kormos: You didn't attempt to contact any of the other members of the police services board?
Mr Keller: Not intentionally, no.
Mr Kormos: Did you contact them unintentionally?
Mr Keller: I bumped into one, yes.
Mr Kormos: Did you make inquiries about the role of the board?
Mr Keller: No.
Mr Kormos: Did you inquire about the status of vacancies on the board?
Mr Keller: No.
Mr Kormos: Did you inquire about who you were replacing?
Mr Keller: Pardon me?
Mr Kormos: Did you inquire about who you were replacing?
Mr Keller: No.
Mr Kormos: Have you made any effort to read anything or acquire any material that discusses what policing is in Canada?
Mr Keller: Yes, the information that the mayor gave me --
Mr Kormos: The Police Services Act. Anything else?
Mr Keller: The Police Services Act and the act of governance of the police board, the duties of a board member to work within the quorum of the Timmins police board.
Mr Kormos: Did you make any inquiries about the incidence of violent crime in Timmins?
Mr Keller: No.
Mr Kormos: Did you make any inquiries about the ratio of police officers to citizenry?
Mr Keller: At this time, no.
Mr Kormos: No determination to see whether, comparatively, Timmins was overpoliced or underpoliced?
Mr Keller: As I said before, I arrived back in the country just last Friday. I was aware that I was going to be appearing here before the panel and I made as much effort as I possibly could to inform myself of what I had to in order to prepare myself here for this --
Mr Kormos: In one of your responses you made reference to the word "punishment." You obviously have concerns about the level of punishment or the type of punishment that's meted out for the commission of crimes?
Mr Keller: I think those laws are set by the government and it would be inappropriate for me to express my personal view as to --
Mr Kormos: No, it would be entirely appropriate. You're here to express your personal views. That's what we're making inquiries of you about.
Mr Keller: If I'm here as a board member --
Mr Kormos: You're not a board member yet, sir.
Mr Keller: No, I understand that.
Mr Kormos: Go ahead. Do you have views about the type of punishment meted out for the commission of crimes?
Mr Keller: Of course I do.
Mr Kormos: What's that got to do with the police services board? Is that within the ambit of the police services board?
Mr Keller: That has absolutely nothing to do with the police services board.
Mr Kormos: Quite right. The issues of crime, you relate the issue of crime to punishment. What has crime got to do with the police services board, in your view?
Mr Keller: The police services board sets out policy so the police chief can carry out his duties as per his arrangement with the Timmins police board, and a board member oversees what he carries out by law.
Mr Kormos: For example, tell us of three policies that the police services board might consider.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Kormos, your time has transpired. We've got some time left for the government caucus if you had a question or two further.
Mr Bert Johnson (Perth): I wanted to inquire of Mr Keller whether he knows Ted Huffman.
Mr Keller: No, I don't.
Mr Bert Johnson: Ted Huffman was the principal of the secondary school in Timmins, was appointed to the police services board in Listowel a couple of years ago. You have no knowledge of the man at all?
Mr Keller: No, I don't. I'm sorry.
The Vice-Chair: Any further questions from the government caucus? Thank you very much then. That's the end of your time, Mr Keller. We appreciate you coming forward. Your presence here has been helpful.
PIERRE LALONDE
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Pierre Lalonde, intended appointee as member, Ontario Institute for Studies in Education board of governors.
The Vice-Chair: The next interview will be Pierre Lalonde, intended appointee as member, Ontario Institute for Studies in Education board of governors. Welcome, Mr Lalonde. We'll start this round of questions with the official opposition, the Liberal caucus. First, does this candidate want to make an opening statement?
Mr Bob Wood: No, he doesn't.
The Vice-Chair: Okay. Go ahead, Mr Gravelle.
Mr Gravelle: Obviously, there's a number of education-related issues that would be interesting to talk to you about. Do they still call it OISE, the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education? I've had people who have told me it's -- whatever.
Mr Pierre Lalonde: I believe many of us still call it OISE, but now it's OISE/U of T.
Mr Gravelle: I was going to say thank you for not embarrassing me. That's exactly where I want to go; the whole question of the merger, if that's the word. Obviously, there's a number of ways one could interpret that, but in essence, what are your thoughts on the merger of OISE and U of T? Do you think this will be beneficial in terms of what the role of OISE has been over the years? Will it be better for OISE or will there be some limitations?
Mr Lalonde: It's my understanding that in terms of the financial position that OISE did find itself in over the last few years, this merger was going to be helpful to them because of, if I understand correctly, some kind of transitional funding. I also believe that whereby in the past OISE has focused mostly on graduate studies and therefore graduate students, this merger will allow for some interplay between the professors of OISE and, if you wish, the undergraduate students at the U of T, and from my perspective, obviously, with the people in the faculty of education, which I believe will be enriching for young people seeking to become teachers.
Mr Gravelle: Do you have any sense of what guarantees there are, if there are any guarantees, in terms of next year and the year after; whether OISE will continue to function in the role it has? Obviously, we're going through an interesting time in education when the minister is announcing rather major cuts and more recently talked about even larger, rather extraordinary cuts, which are obviously controversial, to put it politely. Certainly when one hears about non-classroom type functions, one wonders whether this merger is the start of something else. I'm just wondering whether you have any insight or any thoughts on that.
Mr Lalonde: To be honest, I don't.
Mr Gravelle: I do want to ask you about your appointment itself. You were recommended by the Ontario Teachers' Federation? Is that correct?
Mr Lalonde: That's right.
Mr Gravelle: What was the process you went through for that? Obviously, you've got a great background and I congratulate you for that. I'm just curious as to the process in terms of how this appointment was made and recommended.
Mr Lalonde: I'll give you my perception of that, sir.
Mr Gravelle: Fair enough.
Mr Lalonde: It's my understanding that in the act, that created OISE way back in the 1960s, I would suspect that back then the teacher federation either insisted, or whatever -- convinced -- members of Parliament or the Legislature that teachers should have a voice on the board of governors of OISE, because many of the services from OISE would be directed at teachers. For those of you who are somewhat familiar with the structure of the profession in Ontario, the Ontario Teachers' Federation is the umbrella body and we have five affiliates. I would suspect that is why we find ourselves with six representatives on the board of governors, one being from OTF itself and the other five people being appointed or nominated by our affiliates, of course approved by our board of governors at OTF.
It's also my understanding, sir, that traditionally the secretary-treasurer of the Ontario Teachers' Federation was often the appointee to the OISE board of governors, although the federation in its 52 years has had only three secretary-treasurers and this person here happens to be an acting secretary-treasurer. He was supposed to be in that role for six weeks. It will soon be a year.
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It's also my understanding that the registrar-designate of the future Ontario College of Teachers, my former boss, was the governor for OTF on OISE. With her new function, she resigned, of course, from the board of governors, and the federation decided at that time that they would appoint the acting secretary-treasurer to replace Mrs Wilson, who was the governor. And that's how I find myself there -- well, as an appointee.
Mr Gravelle: Intended appointee. You're pleased about this, though. You're looking forward to the opportunity to serve in this position, I presume.
Mr Lalonde: Yes, I've been fortunate in my career to have opportunities to serve in many capacities. To tell you exactly what I can expect, I'll be very honest with you, I can't. But everywhere I've been named or appointed, it's been in my nature to give it my best shot, and I'll do it, if I'm appointed.
Mr Sergio: Mr Lalonde, you have indicated you will dedicate yourself on a part-time basis to this particular position. How much time would you dedicate to this particular position?
Mr Lalonde: I'm trying to imagine in my own head how much time this might take. It's my understanding from reading some of the notes -- and I did not go into this dossier very profoundly. When two weeks ago I got a call saying, "Pierre, you're going to be interviewed by a standing committee," my first reaction was, "What?" So I got on to the phone to my former boss. I said, "Did they interview you, too?" And I called some of the colleagues who are on the board of governors. They said: "No, Pierre. This is the first time that this has happened."
Mr Sergio: Things are changing.
Mr Lalonde: Of course, I'm a bit intimidated, but to tell you exactly -- I know there are eight meetings a year, for example. It has been, I think, my practice in the past, whenever I was appointed to any kind of committee, to put in the time required. Sometimes that makes for long days and long weeks, but that's the way I operate.
Mr Sergio: I see. Of course, we all share some concerns with respect to the number of dropouts. What would you suggest? What would you bring that would improve that particular situation?
Mr Lalonde: I don't want to get into an argument here.
Mr Sergio: No, no, just your views.
Mr Lalonde: Even if we were to come to the stage where in Ontario there were to be one sole dropout, I think we still have to be concerned. I believe we must continue to seek ways and fashions of making one's life at school. One of the problems I think we're having is that often our young people do not feel school is part of their life from the moment they get up to the moment they go to sleep, but it happens to be some time in the day that they must spend at school. In other words, I think we need to continue to make the life at school, the curriculum included, relevant to the life of the student.
I don't believe the percentage of dropouts is as high as they believe out there, but we must continue to find the ways and means so that every individual attending our schools finds it relevant and enriching and meaningful.
Mr Crozier: Just a very quick question: it won't take much of an answer. The researcher has pointed out to us that when this merger was first announced there were deans from other universities who were very critical of it, perhaps because they felt the U of T would have some advantage over them. Did you have any comment on that?
Mr Lalonde: Well, no profound comments, sir. From my perspective, universities, like any institution I guess, are in competition one with the other, and there's always that question, that the more clients you have the healthier you believe your institution to be. I can understand that from some deans' perception they would say: "Hey, this is really not fair. I mean, these people have the opportunity to offer the graduate students. Now they're merging with the U of T, which gives the U of T an advantage over us."
I would suspect that somewhere down the road, because of the -- how would I put that in English here? -- sense and that firm commitment to autonomy of the university institution, we may have to start rationalizing and the universities in this province will have to start talking and say: "Hey, the good old days are gone. We cannot afford to offer all kinds of programs. Maybe let's work together to provide the best service to the population of Ontario."
The Vice-Chair: Thank you, Mr Lalonde. We'll move on to the New Democratic caucus.
Mr Kormos: Mr Lalonde, I'm reading your CV and, hearing your response to the questions from the opposition, I can't help but think you're a highly qualified person to assume this position. When I realized that you weren't in fact a government nomination but were nominated by the OTF, I understood how you could distinguish yourself in that way.
Mr Lalonde: I didn't know that.
Mr Kormos: I come from down in the Niagara region. Specifically, I live in Welland, which is of course a Bill 8 community. We have a full range, both a Catholic and a public system, of French-language education now through to community college with the announcement by the last government of the French-language community college based there.
Obviously, you have an interest in French-language education because my presumption -- I may be wrong -- is that when you were teaching elementary school in Sudbury it was in a French-language program?
Mr Lalonde: Yes, sir.
Mr Kormos: There has been some criticism, rightly or wrongly, about the quality of training in French language of our teachers. You're aware of that, I'm sure, justified or not. What type of vision, what type of insight do you have into the need to develop, ensure and maintain quality training for French-language teachers in view of the fact that only a small portion of our post-secondary education is committed to French language in this province?
Mr Lalonde: That's true, unfortunately. No, I think it has been a concern over my career that the quality of teacher training, if you wish, has somewhat been lagging behind what my anglophone colleagues are able to receive. There are many factors involved here. I do recall, though it seems ages ago -- 34 years ago, in fact -- when I went to teachers' college. Back then you were able to go to teachers' college directly from grade 12 and it took some years for the French-language community to have the requirement that a student teacher would have his degree. There were reasons behind that, because if we had gone to that requirement at the same time as our anglophone colleagues had done, we would have found ourselves without teachers in many of our classrooms.
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I do believe that my colleagues from the French-language affiliate in particular and our teacher education committee at OTF, which brings together all of the five affiliates, are very much aware of some of the problems we're having at the French-language institutions. We have, for example, at both the University of Ottawa campus, which has a campus also I believe in Windsor and Oakville, and l'École des sciences de l'éducation in Sudbury, our teacher ed committee has a continuing liaison with both faculties, and on an ongoing basis AEFO/OTF through our committees keep in -- well, not just keep in touch; have these discussions with the faculties to ensure that our program is going to be of high quality. I must admit it's not always easy, the excuse being often at the university level that the resources aren't there.
I'll stop there.
Mr Kormos: I really don't know, but is OISE involved in developing or monitoring or indeed teaching in the French language to any great degree?
Mr Lalonde: I think through the two field centres in particular, the one in northern Ontario out of Sudbury and the one in Ottawa, it's my understanding that OISE, through its field centres, does focus on the needs of the French-language community.
Outside of the main office, if you wish, here in Toronto there is the Centre franco-ontarienne des études. I guess I'm on thin ice here because the francophone teaching community of course is not concentrated enough in the Toronto area, that the access to this particular centre is somewhat limited. So if we were to try and determine what proportion of French-language teachers take courses out of OISE, I would say that the proportion is probably less than it should be.
Mr Kormos: I applaud OTF for their nomination of you and I support francophones at OISE and in these positions with your type of qualifications.
The Vice-Chair: Is that it, then for the third party? Then we'll move to the government caucus.
Mr Dan Newman (Scarborough Centre): Having been nominated by the Ontario Teachers' Federation, what are your interests in serving on the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education?
Mr Lalonde: Cut me short if you think I'm philosophizing here. I've been a teacher at heart, at least maybe not in the classroom, for the last 34 years. I've been in the formal education system, as I say, for 34 years, 11 of those years in Sudbury as a classroom teacher, and I will admit to this day I still miss that. I've also been there as a school principal. I've spent some time, I've had a varied career, as I guess you would call -- they called us back then education agents with the Ministry of Education, two and a half years, and for a good part of my life I've also been involved in teacher professional associations and/or some refer to them as federations and others will call them unions.
Over the years, I believed and I still do and understand better that what makes this place, this planet, what it is to me is strictly people. You take the people away and what've you got? You've got nothing. So over the years, I've remained fascinated, and I still am, by the individual person. For example, and I believe this, there never has been and never will be another Dan Newman.
Mr Newman: If that's good or bad, I don't know.
Mr Lalonde: I'm not going to pass a judgement on that, but in my view, that makes a person unique. When you're a classroom teacher and you've got 30 of those in front of you, that is quite the experience to know that none of those is exactly the same; they're unique. At the same time, I'm fascinated that by nature we are social beings, and I remain fascinated, although I'm a bit disappointed at the pace of the evolution. But it seems to me that with the kind of work we've been doing, more of us are understanding that we're also part of something which is very special called the human race. That particular aspect has fascinated me and I say that that kind of evolution has been through education.
I consider myself very fortunate, with all due respect to other professions, whether we call it politics or medicine etc, to have had the opportunity to provide support and encouragement to a bunch of individual young people or older people to develop their hearts and minds. I'm a lucky person. Of course, as a teacher, I believe the majority of us are constantly looking for better ways to help those kids, to provide that support. I believe that the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, especially through its research component, is providing support to me and my colleagues in exploring that territory of better ways. So that's where my interests lie.
Mr Newman: It's a genuine interest.
Mr Lalonde: I believe it is.
Mr Leadston: Mr Lalonde, the role of OISE, how do you see it developing direction for education for young people in our province, both in the elementary system and the secondary system?
Mr Lalonde: If I understand your question correctly, I get nervous with the expression "providing direction," you know, "OISE has determined that this is the way to go." On the other hand, I would interpret the phrase "providing direction" -- I think that OISE is in a very good position to nurture the debate around the direction we should take. Being what we are, I think we'll always be seeking the direction to take. The moment that direction ignores the people involved, we're going to have rough times. So if I were to try to encapsulate my thoughts on that, I think OISE, because of what it has done in its 30 years of existence and I believe -- and I've heard; I haven't checked it out -- there are many graduates of OISE the world over. In other words, this particular institution is almost unique in the world and I think is in a great position to nurture the debate around the direction we should be going in.
Mr Leadston: How would you stimulate debate, then, on the direction of OISE?
Mr Lalonde: I would think, and here I'm guessing, that I would probably have a small part to play. I understand the role of a board of governors is to provide for the institute the thrusts where we believe they should be going, and I would hope that I would be able to provide some input. I don't think they would all say, "Well, let's listen to Pierre, he knows where we're going," but I would hope to enrich the debate of the governors in terms of where they believe the institute should be going.
Mr Leadston: As you know, all journeys begin with a single step, and if you're at the board table, what would you propose? What part would you offer to stimulate some dialogue and some debate?
Mr Lalonde: I'm not going to pretend, sir, that I'm going to answer that right now. I think I need to get a feel. I've never yet attended, and I don't know if I will, depending on what this committee decides, a board of governors' meeting. For example, I am aware -- at least that was my perception of it -- that the last few months, if not years, the board of governors has been much preoccupied by the merger of OISE with U of T. I would believe, of course, it was a very important thing the governors needed to decide because it meant, is this institution going to continue to exist or not? I would suspect that the governors can now put that aside.
I would like to, I guess, allow myself the opportunity to see at what level the discussions are currently at the board of governors, where the focus is. It's been my practice that if I felt that the focus wasn't necessarily going in the right place, it is both my right and my responsibility to question, that and I would do that.
The Vice-Chair: Any further questions from the government caucus? If not, the third party has four and a half minutes left.
Mr Kormos: We're relinquishing that.
The Vice-Chair: Okay. I want to thank you very much for coming forward, Mr Lalonde. Your time here has certainly been helpful, and somebody will be in touch with you as to what happens re concurrence later this afternoon.
Mr Lalonde: Thank you, sir.
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RONALD SUTHERLAND
Review of intended appointment, selected by third party: Ronald Sutherland, intended appointee as member, Town of Amherstburg Police Services Board.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Sutherland will be our next interviewee. Mr Sutherland is an intended appointee as a member of the Town of Amherstburg Police Services Board. Welcome.
Mr Bob Wood: Mr Chair, Mr Sutherland would like to make a statement, please.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Sutherland, any time you're ready, we're ready.
Mr Ronald Sutherland: Thank you, Mr Chair. First of all, I would just like to say that I'm extremely excited about being here this morning with the possibility that my appointment will stand to the Amherstburg police services board. This is something I've been looking forward to. For a number of years I've wanted to enhance -- perhaps "enhance" isn't the word, but I'll use it anyhow -- my personal stature in the community. I've always been one to be quite involved, not just in the background, as it were. I don't take the glory for things that have been done, but I certainly make myself known and I am definitely committed, not only in my career as a business person but in my volunteer commitments to the community in which I live.
I would just like to state that when the advertisement came into the paper my wife was almost as ecstatic as I was that I could actually get on to a recognized board other than just serving as a vice-chair of the Optimist Club or, in previous years, the Jaycees. I really believe that I have something to contribute to the community and the police services board of Amherstburg.
My objective, of course, is to serve as a board member of the Amherstburg police service commission, and I will make significant contributions through my business experience, my liaison planning, creative problem-solving that I go through on a day-to-day basis through my business and the company that I work for, my effective communication abilities, people skills, collective bargaining etc.
I really believe that new ways have to be found to reduce policing expenditures while at the same time maintaining or improving police services and programs in the community in which I live. To that end, I would like to just say that my community and volunteer services include such things as, through my business I am a volunteer member of the International Freedom Festival of Windsor. I am a volunteer member of the Carousel of Nations of Windsor also. I am a member of the Windsor and Amherstburg chambers of commerce. I was a member of the Amherstburg business improvement area; unfortunately, that has been disbanded about six or eight months ago. However, I am actively one of the renewal or founding members, if you will, along with one of the other business gentlemen in Amherstburg, to resurrect this organization and I hope that it will come to pass within the next few months.
I'm also a member of the Windsor Board of Trade. I am the past chairman -- I've just relinquished the chair -- of the health and safety committee of the Canadian Broadcasting Corp in Windsor. I believe that the experience that I've gained on that particular body will enable me to make proper decisions with the police services board in Amherstburg.
Along with that, I am a management representative on the joint manpower committee with the Canadian Broadcasting Corp and the CUPE and NABET unions. I have experience at the bargaining table in collective bargaining. Therefore, I believe the experience that I've had in that will come indubitably into play as a valued member of the Amherstburg police services, hopefully.
I'll definitely be a major asset to the board in budget setting and control of those budgets. I currently and for the past 10 years with the Canadian Broadcasting Corp annually have had to set a budget that is not just quasi pie in the sky, so to speak: "We spent X dollars last year, so we'll just take that and add 20%." That's not how we work. I work from a zero-base budget each year and have to live and operate within those means. I can see that I can lend that expertise or that knowledge that I've gained from that and the handling of those budgets right along to the Amherstburg police services board at the appropriate times.
I also manage a staff of in excess of 50, which makes it imperative that I can determine adequate personnel, especially in the company that I represent in these times of restraint. I've mentioned before that I have experience in the collective bargaining unit, and I believe that will be an addition and a benefit to the Amherstburg police services board.
I'm a strong believer in ongoing performance reviews, but I mean by that a doublesided review. When I have a review with my staff now, it's not just, "How is your performance doing?" but I ask them to ask me how my performance is doing. I believe that the ongoing sharing of communication between the two, management and staff, can be related to the Amherstburg police services board in the respect that we can share things, that if the Amherstburg police services board is not living up entirely to the expectations of the police chief and/or members, at least things can be discussed; it's not a one-way street.
The bottom line is that, as I say, I'm excited about this intended appointment, hopefully, to the police services board. Over the past 25 years of sales and management, I have taken the initiative to establish myself and achieve increasingly challenging objectives and initiatives, not only for myself, but for my staff and colleagues as well. I have earned a solid reputation, if you will, among subordinates, superiors, business associates and clients as an individual who expects and demands the highest attainable performance from myself and from those I'm associated with. I believe --
The Vice-Chair: Mr Sutherland, we've set aside a maximum of five minutes for opening statements. You've gone beyond that now, so we would ask you to stop at this point. We'll get into the questioning, if you don't mind.
Mr Sutherland: Thank you, Mr Chair. I was just going to end at that moment.
The Vice-Chair: Okay, good. We'll start the questioning this time with the New Democrat caucus.
Mr Kormos: Mr Sutherland, I'm pleased to see that you were interviewed by the public appointments unit and a member of the minister's staff. Were these in-person interviews?
Mr Sutherland: By telephone, sir.
Mr Kormos: In both cases?
Mr Sutherland: Yes.
Mr Kormos: How long were the interviews?
Mr Sutherland: In excess of a half an hour, I believe.
Mr Kormos: Really? Each one?
Mr Sutherland: For sure the one; I'm not exactly sure about the other. I'm sorry.
Mr Kormos: Far more thorough than in the case of some others, that's certainly true. You make reference to the Progressive Conservative Party philosophy relating to crime and punishment. That's fair enough. What is the Progressive Conservative Party philosophy relating to crime and punishment?
Mr Sutherland: As I understand the party's philosophy on crime and punishment, it's the -- I could read it exactly to you.
Mr Kormos: Sure.
Mr Sutherland: I have it here somewhere, but I'm not going to delve into it. I'm sure I can't quote it verbatim. However, suffice it to say: Fair equity for all. Wife abuse is foremost in the front lines, along with employment equity, gun control etc.
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Mr Kormos: So the Progressive Conservative Party philosophy as to crime profiles -- wife abuse is a target?
Mr Sutherland: I believe that it is. This is my personal opinion, but I believe it is certainly one of the numbers of things that is on the agenda that has to be addressed.
Mr Kormos: Fair enough. Gun control?
Mr Sutherland: The same.
Mr Kormos: That gun control is a goal?
Mr Sutherland: I believe that it is an enactment of that, yes.
Mr Kormos: Because, of course, the chiefs of police of Ontario endorsed the federal gun control legislation.
Mr Sutherland: As I understand it, yes.
Mr Kormos: So you're supportive of that?
Mr Sutherland: I am.
Mr Kormos: It being consistent with Progressive Conservative Party philosophy?
Mr Sutherland: Yes, sir.
Mr Kormos: With respect to employment equity, it's important that police forces reflect the communities that they're policing?
Mr Sutherland: Yes, that's true.
Mr Kormos: That there be women on those police forces?
Mr Sutherland: Yes.
Mr Kormos: And that there be members of visible minority groups?
Mr Sutherland: Yes, sir.
Mr Kormos: And, in so far as I suppose they can be accommodated, persons with disabilities?
Mr Sutherland: I would go as far as to agree with you on that, yes.
Mr Kormos: Not accommodate, but in terms of the role that they can play in a policing unit?
Mr Sutherland: Yes, sir.
Mr Kormos: So of course employment equity is something that's of concern to you?
Mr Sutherland: Yes, it is.
Mr Kormos: I'm quite pleased, I tell you, to hear that. So targeting spousal abuse -- and I'm sure Ms Churley will want to speak to that -- is important, giving effect to employment equity, because, you see, the Police Services Act had some special standards with respect to providing for equity on police forces. You're aware of that, aren't you?
Mr Sutherland: Yes, I am.
Mr Kormos: You, of course, endorse those.
Mr Sutherland: Let me answer it in this respect: Providing I'm appointed to the Amherstburg Police Services Board, yes, I will ensure that those policies are adhered to.
Mr Kormos: And the employment equity legislation will be adhered to?
Mr Sutherland: Yes, sir.
Mr Kormos: You'll ensure that?
Mr Sutherland: I will.
Mr Kormos: I'm pleased to hear that. Mind you, the Conservatives repealed the employment equity legislation and the similar legislation under the Police Services Act. I'm pleased to see that you will use your position on the board to give effect to them.
Now, the issue of punishment: What's the Progressive Conservative Party philosophy at it applies to punishment?
Mr Sutherland: I believe that the victim's rights have to be protected in the fact that more protection has to be given to the victims than has been in the past.
Mr Kormos: What's the policing role in that regard?
Mr Sutherland: I believe that, if I could just take a specific and revert it back to perhaps wife abuse, each police officer who is attending a particular situation as such has to make sure, just to take a simple thing that I would take as a normal thing to do, to ensure that they stay at the scene of the perpetrated crime, if you will, until such time as the premises are safe -- you know, that type of thing.
Mr Kormos: Okay, thank you. I'm sure Ms Churley has some questions.
Ms Churley: I did want to pursue the question of wife abuse with you. The NDP government came out with a set of guidelines which I believe you seem to be somewhat familiar with, which heartens me.
I wanted to ask you a question around representation on police services boards. I don't know what yours will look like, if you should be appointed at the end of the day, but overall I will be bringing up with the government later on the fact that I have some concerns about representatives of women and other people who have a background specifically in working in shelters and specifically with battered women, women fleeing from domestic violence, women who are being stalked. I'm seeing that there's, in general, removal of these people by this government from the board. I'm certainly not asking you to comment on your views on what the government is doing. I am asking you to comment on your views as to how you would deal with that, if you should be sitting on your board and find that there may have been people whose background was in this area who have been removed and that there's nobody to replace them. Would that concern you and would you, as a board member, actively lobby or work with the government and your board to make sure that representation is there?
Mr Sutherland: Okay, let me answer the first part of that question with yes. The second part is that, to my understanding, if I am appointed as a replacement -- not a replacement; there's a vacancy on the board of Amherstburg. I'm not displacing anyone, so we're not knocking a woman out of the chair, if that's what you're leading to or that's the intent of the question.
Ms Churley: I honestly am not sure in your case, but I know in other areas it's happening.
Mr Sutherland: All I can comment on is the position I'm applying for and am seeking wholeheartedly, and that is that there's a vacancy on the board. I know I can fill it. My qualifications, in all areas that I've touched on previously, I believe more than qualify me for this particular position. In speaking to the chair of the Amherstburg police services board, Darlene Labonte -- I've not met the lady in person, but I have spoken to her on the phone -- I asked her specific questions. Is there somebody who's taking on the Employment Equity Act thing, wife assault things, the things that you have just mentioned. I understand that one of the board members I do know, Wayne Hurst, has championed that particular cause and I've already been invited to sit on his committee, should I be appointed. Yes, I'm very concerned about this and I will do something about it.
Ms Churley: Good. Do you believe, from your knowledge and reports that have been in the public lately, that there is systemic racism throughout the justice system? Do you have any views, if you believe that there may be problems there, on what should be done about it?
Mr Sutherland: There, again, I don't believe that this forum is for me to speculate on what is or is not, on the whole, in general. I can only relate to the position that I'm applying for and I don't believe there are any issues at this point in Amherstburg, that I know of anyhow.
Ms Churley: But that's something, in answer to a previous question by my colleague Mr Kormos, that I was pleased to hear that you have concerns and interest in. So given the fact that the government has repealed the Employment Equity Act and the employment equity act of the police act as well, how would you propose dealing with the need to make sure that there is equity and true representation on the police services board that actively and accurately represents the community?
Mr Sutherland: I hope my opening remarks covered that in general to a certain extent. My employer has an employment equity act also, and we comply. I'm a firm believer that it's okay to advertise and solicit applications from minorities when hiring and this type of thing. However, I am a firm believer that only someone who is properly qualified for the position should be the one who is hired, ultimately. That's the only way I can answer that question.
Ms Churley: Yes, I think we all believe in that. Obviously, there are disagreements on our legislation in terms of quotas or not. I say that there weren't quotas, that the act was very clear about hiring people who were best-qualified. The issue, of course, is the glass ceiling for women and the issue is around whether or not you can actually find a person from minorities who has the same or better qualifications and get them in the door. I think those are some of the concerns that you mentioned and that I'm getting at, that we have to take steps to make sure that people from racial minorities and women have the opportunity to get in the door and have an equal opportunity.
Mr Sutherland: Correct, and I agree with you on that.
Ms Churley: Good. Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: We'll move on to the government caucus.
Mr Bob Wood: You understand, sir, that the Employment Equity Act has been repealed.
Mr Sutherland: Yes, I do.
Mr Bob Wood: On the board, you would enforce the current policies of the government of Ontario with respect to human rights?
Mr Sutherland: Without question.
Mr Bob Wood: Thank you. Those are my questions.
Mr Preston: Mr Sutherland, you've answered most of my questions with your introductory statement.
Mr Sutherland: I hoped to.
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Mr Preston: You mentioned budgets, your work with budgets and financing. What challenges do you see in the community with regard to police service expenditures?
Mr Sutherland: Being as I'm not exactly privy at this point, because I haven't been appointed yet, I don't believe that I can speak exactly to dollars and cents, if you will, other than that I am aware that the police budget in Amherstburg is somewhere around $1.5 million annually. Whether that's too much, too low or whatever, I can't comment at this point. However, I do believe that with my past experience with my employer of having to set budgets annually, I will certainly lend whatever experience I have gained to the board in not only setting these budgets, but administering them on a proper basis.
Mr Preston: So there's not been any publicity regarding new buildings, too many police, not enough police, new cruisers?
Mr Sutherland: No. Well, as a matter of fact, there was a new cruiser purchased here in the not-too-distant past. Now, I can't tell you if it was a month ago or six months ago, but I do know, in talking to the chair of the Amherstburg police services board, that she did say that the car had to be replaced because it fell apart out somewhere. It may still be in a ditch; I don't know.
Mrs Ross: I don't know very much about Amherstburg, but can you tell me approximately what the population might be there?
Mr Sutherland: It's exactly 10,000 -- and maybe one, if we had a baby today.
Mrs Ross: The reason I asked is that in my community, with about 500,000 people in the region, we have what we call community-based policing. It's felt that community-based policing would provide greater visibility of police in the communities they're attached to. Personally, I think that community-based policing would work better in a community such as yours rather than in a community such as mine. Do you have any views on that?
Mr Sutherland: Not particularly. I'm all in favour of the best police force, no matter where it comes from, in the community in which I live. I might add that you mentioned that you don't know much about Amherstburg. Let me just say this: It's God's country. Please come and visit us.
Mrs Ross: Can I ask you if you think that as a member of the police services board, should you be appointed, part of your role would be to work with the police force in your area to provide greater visibility in the community?
Mr Sutherland: I'm glad you asked that question, because currently in my role as the sales manager for the Canadian Broadcasting Corp in southern Ontario I have embarked upon a national campaign that we've been running for -- I believe this is the seventh year now. I'll just hold this up. I don't know if anyone can see it or not, but it's Extreme Attitudes Against Drunk Driving, and this is geared directly to the graduating students right across Canada. We've put this in place with the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. What I did in my area is I tied this in with the city police of Windsor. I hope to expand into Essex county with the thing next year and have them involved so that they're more visible in this, because I really believe that drinking and driving is a big problem. If the young folks who are graduating today are not aware of the fact of what can happen, I think the police forces that are involved -- and I'd like to believe that the police where I live are involved with the community at large, but I'm in favour of the more exposure that we can have of our police forces, the better. I like to live in a very safe community, and that's one of the reasons I'm applying for this board, so that I can help in whatever way I can contribute to my community.
The Vice-Chair: We'll now move on to the Liberal caucus.
Mr Crozier: Good morning, Mr Sutherland. We haven't had the opportunity to meet.
Mr Sutherland: Unfortunately, I would like to correct you: We have met.
Mr Crozier: Where was that?
Mr Sutherland: I believe you attended a meeting of the Save Our Sands Committee at the Verdi Club last summer of which I was one of the chairs.
Mr Kormos: So now you say, "Of course I remember you."
Mr Crozier: I was just testing him. Now that you've put me on the spot --
Mr Sutherland: Well, I figured I'd attack you before you do me.
Mr Crozier: I'm not here to attack you. No, sir. In fact, I'll concur with you that Amherstburg certainly is in God's country and I would invite them to come as well. How long have you lived in Amherstburg?
Mr Sutherland: It will be 10 years next month.
Mr Crozier: I see you do have a pretty extensive involvement in community affairs, but mostly in the city of Windsor. What is it that you've been involved in in Amherstburg?
Mr Sutherland: As I mentioned before, most recently in the Save Our Sands Committee, with the destruction that went on with the island there. I have been involved with the BIA, as I mentioned, and the chamber of commerce. I am a member of the Amherstburg Performing Arts. I'm involved in slow pitch, as far as playing baseball is concerned. I'm a very avid boater. I belong to the Sun Parlour boat club, which gets us out and into the community and what not. I just really feel that the involvement that I've had through my business dictates that I do it in Windsor for the most part. However, I live in Amherstburg and I want to do more there.
Mr Crozier: That's great. When you mention the Save Our Sands Committee, and I was there, although it was basically a federal issue, but I certainly was interested in it -- it's an area that has been used for many years, as we all know, and I too wanted to see a resolution to that.
There was some suggestion that there may have even been a bit of civil disobedience in connection with that or at least a suggestion that they occupy the Sands and so forth. Did you agree with that?
Mr Sutherland: That was never the intent of the committee that I was a member of. Along with the chairman, Dick Malott, we strongly said to Mr Carl Gibb, the mayor of Malden township, that no one in any of the so-called civil whatevers was endorsed by the membership that I belong to. However, we were all a part of the flotilla of the 200 or 300 boats that made the parade with --
Mr Crozier: Yes. Oh, sure.
Mr Sutherland: I mean, the OPP were certainly aware of it. All it was was a demonstration to show that we in fact needed that beach back, but no one trespassed or whatever.
Mr Crozier: But the point was that there were some people there who suggested some civil disobedience. I just wanted to see how you felt about that.
Mr Sutherland: They were not part of our group. In any organization, you're going to find some vigilant whatevers, and they were not part of our group at all.
Mr Crozier: You mentioned in your objectives that you would put emphasis on the government's philosophy relating to crime and punishment, and then in answer to Mr Kormos you mentioned gun control. Are you in favour of gun control?
Mr Sutherland: As far as it goes to protect the police officers, yes.
Mr Crozier: As far as the federal legislation is concerned.
Mr Sutherland: I don't believe that I'm in a position to comment on federal policy at this level and I don't intend to. Suffice it to say --
Mr Crozier: With all due respect, Mr Sutherland, the police services board and the police in the town of Amherstburg are going to have to deal with guns and gun control. I was just interested to know how you felt about it.
Mr Sutherland: Okay. Fair question. Then I'll answer that. I'm in favour of gun control. I don't own a gun myself and I don't believe that anyone should own a gun unless they really have a need for it. I don't know what else I can say to that.
Mr Crozier: The Solicitor General, who in a sense is the real boss over the police services, has gone as far as going to Ottawa, being opposed to the gun control legislation. Yet, as Mr Kormos has pointed out, the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police is in favour. So where does that leave you, do you think, as a member of the police services board?
Mr Sutherland: I'll take that as having been appointed, now that you say I'm a member of the police services board.
Mr Crozier: I'm sure we'll concur in your appointment.
Mr Sutherland: I will answer it in this way. I will do my utmost to carry out the policies that are set so that the police force of Amherstburg adheres to all of the policies and procedures.
Mr Crozier: But you will be setting policy in some areas.
Mr Sutherland: I presume that will be part of my role, yes.
Mr Crozier: Yes. Do you know where it is that you can influence policy?
Mr Sutherland: At this point I don't know if I could comment knowledgeably, no.
Mr Crozier: You mentioned budgets and control. Are you aware of the budget process as far as it's concerned with police services boards, how it works, ie, between yourselves and town council?
Mr Sutherland: I'm not sure of the exact format, but it can't be altogether different from what I have to work with or any budget-setting process, in theory.
Mr Crozier: What I would suggest is that you as a police services board, with your chief, of course, will establish a budget that will then be presented to town council. Town council may not agree with that budget, ie, it may be too high. How would you feel about that?
Mr Sutherland: Number one, I believe that with Bill Gibb, the mayor of the town, being on the police services board, along with Tom Hamilton, who is a councillor, we would have had those discussions in the inner circle, if you will, on the police services board and those issues would have been solved before they went to town council, I would presume.
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Mr Crozier: You may be in for a surprise.
Mr Sutherland: I'm sure I will be, but I've got broad shoulders and I can take the heat.
Mr Crozier: I'm sure you have. What happens then is that the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services is actually the final word, so it isn't even anyone in the town of Amherstburg who has the final word on your police budget.
Mr Sutherland: You're correct, but I understand there is an appeal process that can be invoked or whatever.
Mr Crozier: Yes. In fact, the Association of Municipalities of Ontario has endorsed the idea that there should be a majority of elected town officials on a police services board, as opposed to the way it is now, where the majority is appointed. How do you feel about that balance?
Mr Sutherland: Because I have not been, as far as I know, appointed, I applied outside for a vacancy.
Mr Crozier: Yes, but you're a taxpayer.
Mr Sutherland: I'm a taxpayer. It really wouldn't matter personally to me, I don't think. I could be proved wrong in due course.
Mr Crozier: You don't think it'll make any difference that some people would think that the appointed majority is not as accountable as the elected minority on the police services board?
Mr Sutherland: I would certainly hope that a forum such as this would determine whether or not an appointee versus whatever would be qualified.
Mr Crozier: No, not qualifications. I think you're qualified. I'm asking you how you feel about the balance, where there is a majority of unelected appointees to a police services board as opposed to elected. As a taxpayer, you have no concern about that?
Mr Sutherland: I don't believe it to be an issue. Maybe it is.
Mr Crozier: I'm saying it is a bit of an issue in that the Association of Municipalities of Ontario, who are elected officials, feels that the majority on a police services board -- in fact, there are some who even feel it should be a committee of council. Perhaps I could ask it that way: As a taxpayer, would you prefer that the police services board be made up of elected officials?
Mr Sutherland: Not necessarily.
Mr Crozier: Not necessarily. So you think there should be some appointed officials. For what reason?
Mr Sutherland: Being as I'm not an appointee, I don't think I can answer that question.
Mr Crozier: What we're trying to determine is, though, how you feel as an appointee. Let's assume that you are. You feel budget-setting and control are important, but what I'm getting at is that the town council, which sets the tax rate and collects the taxes, in the end doesn't have any control over it. I wonder how you feel about that as a taxpayer and as a probable appointee to the board.
Mr Sutherland: I thought that town council did have control over what the board recommends as a budget-setting process. Am I wrong in that?
Mr Crozier: No, I wouldn't say you're wrong. I'm just saying the process is that if the town council turns your budget down and you as a police services board insist on that budget, it then goes to the Ontario civilian commission, and the commission then will determine.
Mr Sutherland: Correct.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much, Mr Crozier and Mr Sutherland. Your time has come to an end.
Mr Crozier: Good to meet you again.
Mr Sutherland: My pleasure again.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you for coming forward today, Mr Sutherland. Your presence has been quite helpful.
Mr Sutherland: Thank you very much. Could I just close with one 12-second statement?
The Vice-Chair: Twelve seconds.
Mr Sutherland: On behalf of my employer, I would like to thank you for watching CBC television last night.
Ms Churley: Are you a salesman?
Mr Kormos: A sales manager.
NEILL ISCOE
Review of intended appointment, selected by government party: Neill Iscoe, intended appointee as professional member, Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation.
Mr Kormos: The final interview is Dr Iscoe. Dr Iscoe is here. Please, Chair, I want to apologize now to Dr Iscoe. The government called him before this committee. I've read his curriculum vitae. He's an outstanding member of the profession who is obviously and without any question qualified to serve in this position. He's a very busy person. There's no question about his qualifications. His application for the appointment was sent to the government by the chair of the Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation. I can't for the life of me understand why he was pulled out of what I'm sure is a very busy work schedule and brought down here.
I move that the committee dispense with an interview of Dr Iscoe, and I can indicate on my own behalf and on behalf of my colleague that we will be, of course, supporting enthusiastically his appointment. Why the government would ask him to come down here, in view of the purpose of this committee, beats me.
Mr Bob Wood: Mr Chair, there are certain issues we'd like to discuss with him and we propose to proceed with the hearing.
Mr Kormos: I put a motion out.
The Vice-Chair: There's a motion on the floor. Those in favour of dispensing, please raise their hand? Those opposed? The motion is lost. Dr Iscoe is our next interview. Would you come forward and make yourself comfortable. Does Dr Iscoe have an opening --
Dr Neill Iscoe: I do, Mr Chairman, if you'd be so kind.
The Vice-Chair: You have a maximum of five minutes for that. It comes out of the government caucus's time.
Dr Iscoe: First of all, I'd like to introduce my partner at the cancer society, Miss Penny Thomsen, who's the executive director of the Ontario division of the Canadian Cancer Society. I would like to send the regrets of Mr Jack Shapiro, chairman of the board of the Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, who unfortunately had a conflict today and couldn't be present.
Mr Chairman, I would like to thank you and your committee for the opportunity to make a few remarks before answering any questions you may have.
I'm here before you as a nominee to the board of the Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, and if approved would represent the concerns of the Ontario division of the Canadian Cancer Society. I'm also an employee of the Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation and work as a medical oncologist at the Toronto-Sunnybrook Regional Cancer Centre. The views I express today are meant to represent the Canadian Cancer Society, and at no time should they be interpreted as representing the Toronto-Sunnybrook Regional Cancer Centre, Sunnybrook Health Science Centre or the University of Toronto.
The Canadian Cancer Society is a national, community-based organization of volunteers whose mission is the eradication of cancer and the enhancement of the quality of life of people living with cancer. The activities resulting from this mission can be broadly grouped into research whose aim is the eradication of cancer, and programs designed to enhance the quality of life of people living with cancer.
This government should be aware that the Canadian Cancer society remains the single largest funder of cancer research in this country. Approximately $34 million of the $78 million it receives annually as charitable contributions from Canadians in all walks of life is forwarded to its research partner, the National Cancer Institute of Canada, in support of research. In total, the society has forwarded over half a billion dollars to the institute since it first invested in research in 1946.
The society's goal of enhancing the quality of life of people living with cancer is supported through its patient services programs, which provide peer support and transportation, and efforts to prevent cancer through tobacco control activities and the promotion of healthier lifestyles through public education.
Though I am a physician, the Canadian Cancer Society is not a medically driven group. We leave issues of therapy to the professionals. However, the society does have a role in promoting the views of professionals to the public as an educational activity.
In Ontario, the society depends on volunteers to fulfil its mission and counts itself fortunate to be able to rely on 130,000 Ontarians, ranging from the many residential canvassers, who spend perhaps five to 10 hours per year, to the division president, who spends up to 40 hours per month volunteering time in support of the mission.
The society is well aware of the pressures faced by governments today and is keen to take an active role in the reorganization of cancer care services. To this end, the society believes its long-standing relationship with the OCTRF will provide an effective springboard for the changes to come. More importantly, the missions of our two organizations are sufficiently similar that it is impossible to see how our objectives can differ.
Finally, I am reminded of the comments made by Dr Jacques Cantin, a past president of the Canadian Cancer Society, when he first became a society volunteer many years ago. He had responded to a patient's concerns and was reminded by this man, "Oh, I thought you worked for me." As volunteers in the society, we work for and advocate on behalf of the cancer patients of the present and the cancer patients of the future. The fact that this can be done as a member of the board of the senior cancer organization in the province can only assist in the attainment of our common goals.
Let me close by again thanking the committee for the opportunity to come before you. I would be pleased to answer any questions you have.
The Vice-Chair: We'll start the questioning in this round with the government side.
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Mr Leadston: Dr Iscoe, I personally appreciate the opportunity first of all to meet you and have an opportunity to ask you some questions. You certainly have a very impressive background and one that I strongly admire. I share some of the comments of my colleague in that I realize your time and energy are important in other areas, perhaps far more important than sitting here responding to questions. Nevertheless, I'd like to know the relationship between the Canadian Cancer Society and the Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation. Are they really essentially one and the same or can you enlighten me on that relationship?
Dr Iscoe: They're not even close to being one and the same. The Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation is governed by the Cancer Act as it's established by this Parliament. It may have charitable status in terms of being able to raise moneys and things of that nature. However, its mandate is to provide for treatment and services, research and education. The Cancer Society, which was established -- what, about 60 years ago now?
Interjection.
Dr Iscoe: Yes, in 1938. It initially was established as a lay organization -- and I emphasize that because that's very distinct from the way it's run in the United States -- whose mission was to inform people about cancer in general, that early diagnosis might enhance people's chances, and I guess has evolved over time, some eight or 10 years later, into supporting research as an activity, and has continued to evolve, with tobacco control activities when the first Surgeon General's report came out, to branch out into areas where as a lay group, if you can leverage people with small amounts of dollars to do large amounts of work, you might be able to do it with volunteers.
The organization is totally dependent on volunteers to do that, whereas the Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation uses paid employees and is only now looking at, if you will, support groups within its own organizations to enhance its activities as well. So the two are different. We have, as I said, common goals, and the extent to which we can move collectively together to those common goals can only enhance the objectives.
Mr Leadston: Is that an objective, to blend the two bodies?
Dr Iscoe: Speaking for the society, I would think not; from a perspective within the foundation, I would think not as well. I think there's benefit in keeping the identity separate, by far and away. The society is a national organization. It's basically a federation of the provincial divisions and territories, so it very much mirrors the Canadian federation as it exists.
Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings): I'm interested in the foundation's funding. Would a lot of this, or any of it, be done through fund-raising campaigns?
Dr Iscoe: All of it? No, I shouldn't say all of it. The moneys come, as I said, through donations. The donations may come in the form of bequests, from people who die and leave moneys. They may or may not be cancer patients themselves. They may come in the form of donations in memoriam. In other words, at the time of death of a cancer patient sometimes people wish to donate or the family makes it known they wish, in lieu of flowers or the like, to donate to the cancer society. A good deal of it, and Penny can help me in this regard, comes from the sort of campaign that people think of in April, with the daffodils, where door-to-door canvassers go forth.
We're endeavouring to enhance our fund-raising capability. It's quite frankly been static over the last number of years and some of that relates to the fact that the economic times are tough; some of it relates to the fact that there's a competitive marketplace for the cancer research or cancer support dollar. We're not the only player. We were for umpteen decades, but we're not the only player now. It's our task, if you will, to make the society's activities more attractive to the donor than other groups' activities.
Mr Fox: So are you satisfied with the amount of money that you're getting at the present time? You never are; you could always use more.
Dr Iscoe: I'd never be satisfied.
Mr Fox: Percentagewise, would you come close?
Dr Iscoe: No. If you ask me, am I happy where we are right now, I'd be happy if we could keep up with the cost of inflation. We've been flat-lined for about five or six years. That poses immense problems for the research venture. For those of you who don't know, the National Cancer Institute of Canada has disbanded the Terry Fox support program for researchers and they've had to do so in order to support research projects. The funding for personnel as a support issue is dying in order to support the projects themselves. That's a reflection of the fact that there's a flat line that goes towards our research partner.
Mr Bob Wood: What's the number one thing you'd like to see happen at the foundation next year?
Dr Iscoe: Personally, and I suspect there will be opportunity for discussion at the foundation board, I think there must be a way at an operational level, not necessarily at the policy level the board deals with but at an operational level, that deals with day-to-day crunch issues that I face as a physician and a practitioner, about how we can allocate the dollars most effectively.
That body, however it's constituted, will have to have public input. I don't think it's appropriate for the medical community or the people who have some sort of status within the foundation or other bodies to take that unto themselves. The decisions, as I see them, are going to be nigh unto impossible without hurting somebody or having somebody believe they're being hurt. It's absolutely critical to have a public presence to focus the discussion and to bear witness to the process that takes place. The decisions that are going to be made are not going to be made cavalierly, but without a public presence there it may be perceived that they were made cavalierly.
The Vice-Chair: We'll now move to the Liberals.
Mr Gravelle: Good morning, Dr Iscoe. I certainly share the feelings that Mr Kormos mentioned earlier, and I did feel sort of guilty, thinking that you're an incredibly busy man, and obviously your résumé is more than impressive. But in that you're here, I may as well take the opportunity to ask you some questions, and please excuse me if they are not very well-informed, because like many people we operate with a superficial awareness and perhaps just a fear level in terms of knowledge of cancer itself.
There's a chart the legislative researcher managed to give us in terms of the types of cancer that occur and the numbers in Canada. There were certain cancers that were more frequent 20 years ago and there are certain cancers that are more frequent now. I guess the cure rate has changed a great deal in the last 20 years as well. Is a lot of it based on research, or is it based on prevention? That's one question. The other is, is it a simple question? I know one should be careful about using the word "cure," but is it your opinion that there would be a likelihood that the incidence of a number of cancers could go down were you to have a lot more funding?
Dr Iscoe: Thanks for the opportunity to try to address some of these questions. To deal with the first question, the issue of what constitutes research and new knowledge is fairly fundamental. You made the comment, is it an issue of research or prevention? I would submit to you that you can only prevent what you know is worthwhile to prevent. Smoking legislation and anti-tobacco control activities came about as a result of research that was started in the UK back in the late 1940s in a cohort of doctors that demonstrated quite clearly then, and it's remained true to this day, that people who smoked had a far greater mortality from a host of conditions. That was research. It translates into prevention activities. The issues of dietary habits and sun exposure are not as clear, although people believe that the information is consistent enough to act upon, so that translates into prevention activities. It all comes from knowledge, and knowledge is only as good as the quality of the information you get, and that's basically a research issue.
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The second question was, if you put more money into the research pot, would you be further ahead? Yes, but if you ask me whether you'd be further ahead totally in cancer, I would answer that by saying that you'll be totally ahead in a lot of ways you wouldn't even have anticipated.
I have told people within the Ontario division board, many of whom are laypeople like yourselves, that you have a drug to break up clots after a heart attack because genetic engineering came on line. The only reason genetic engineering came on line is because somebody was interested in a gene problem. The only gene problem that really made a big difference to the public health issue is cancer.
Cancer research bears fruit in areas where you don't expect it. People have identified the gene for cystic fibrosis because of the same technologies. When people get into gene therapy now, the techniques are the same. Basic research will bear fruit in areas you don't anticipate, and some of the National Cancer Institute research offspring have nothing to do with cancer altogether.
Whether it will bear fruit in the cancers that have proved rather refractory or resistant to the types of things we've done to date, I can't judge that. I would be hopeful that we make advances by small increments, not generally by leaps and bounds. The question is, where do you put your efforts? You have to do it somewhere, and that's what the institute's for, to decide where they think the moneys would be best spent. I hope that's helpful.
Mr Gravelle: Absolutely. Canada, I understand, is one of the slower countries -- perhaps that's the wrong phrasing, but certainly it takes the longest time to approve new drugs that can be of use for a number of cases. I'm thinking probably of 3TC right now for the AIDS virus in terms of the use in the US and in Canada, but there are other drugs as well. There is a longer process, it seems, in Canada than in many other countries. That's my understanding, and again it's a layman's understanding. Are you comfortable giving me an opinion on whether this is a good thing? I think one understands why there's a careful process in terms of approving new drugs for various therapies. I'm just curious as to your point of view.
Dr Iscoe: I think the process is totally appropriate. What we're talking about is a perceptual gap. When a new drug comes along it is portrayed as the best thing since sliced bread when in fact it's incremental and it's not necessarily the best thing since sliced bread. It may add months to people's lives; for a small percentage of people maybe it'll add a large number of months. If you came across something that was actually curative in a situation that was otherwise not curative, it wouldn't take long to approve it. It's when the information is at the margin where it takes some time and you've got to collect the pounds of information.
Mr Gravelle: Could I ask you one more thing that probably is somewhat contentious too? It's related to your previous comments in terms of prevention. We're obviously going through a time when the health care system is under a great deal of strain in terms of cost and how funds are used, and one aspect -- this is actually in Bill 26 -- is the potential that people may be put in a position where they don't necessarily receive service because of their lifestyle habits. In other words, there's a correlation between smoking and various illnesses and a correlation between dietary habits and some other things. People may be told they cannot receive medical counsel because of their lifestyle habits. Do you have an opinion on that?
Dr Iscoe: Personally, yes, and as a society member, yes. That's totally indefensible -- end of statement.
The Vice-Chair: We'll move to the NDP's time.
Ms Churley: I agree with my colleague and others that we very much support your appointment and don't necessarily need to question you about the foundation, although it's not as if we know everything about it --
Mr Kormos: Mind you, Doctor, my having made that statement could well have skewered you with the Tory members, and I apologize if that happens.
Dr Iscoe: I appreciate that.
Ms Churley: That's true. I'd like to let you know that the legislative research service gave us some background, which I took the opportunity to read, about the foundation. I must admit that I didn't know a whole lot about it before now.
I would like to follow up on the question asked by Mr Fox about funding. If I heard you correctly, what you said is that you've been flat-lined.
Dr Iscoe: The cancer society is flat-lined. I'm not adequately familiar with the budget of the foundation over the last number of years to be able to make a comment about that.
Ms Churley: I see, because of course you haven't received your appointment yet, so you can't comment on whether the foundation itself is getting adequate funding. But that is something I assume you'd have an interest in, in terms of making sure that you can do the job.
Dr Iscoe: The question relates to what constitutes adequate funding?
Ms Churley: Yes.
Dr Iscoe: You can always put money into more roads; the question is what constitutes an adequate level of road maintenance and road safety. At a certain point, it would reach the law of diminishing returns. It becomes a much more emotional issue, because you're talking about what people perceive are their lives in terms of whether the funding is adequate. But I would submit to you that you could raise the same issue with any area within the health care field. If you were to pour money into one area at the expense of another, I don't think the society would support that either.
Ms Churley: Do you have any ideas at this point, if you have to make some of these hard changes because of decreased funding, where your priorities would be?
Dr Iscoe: No. The priorities for me would be, as I stated earlier to Mr Wood, to try to establish a process with public input so that the public would be participants in the decisions at an operational level that says, "We'll do treatment A versus treatment B." I don't see that as an issue that a board can deal with usefully, because the boards don't meet as often as these issues come up and because debates around these issues alone will consume the whole board's time, for one issue alone. I think some structure needs to be put in place, and as I said, with public participation.
Ms Churley: For the foundation now -- or do you know? -- is there some system in place that includes public participation?
Dr Iscoe: There are public members on the board, as I'm sure this committee is well aware, people who are meant to represent the public as opposed to other appointees because they may have some special skills in the business world or they're used to managing large organizations or the like; if you will, for want of a better way of putting it, people who are meant to represent grass roots. The foundation has done that. The local regional treatment centres within the foundation, to some degree or another, have all started that process so they have some grass-roots input and grass-roots participation in decisions that affect the lives of the people they serve, and I think that's to their credit.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much. Those are our questions for today. We appreciate your coming forward this morning. Your presence here has been very helpful.
That's it for this morning, ladies and gentlemen. We'll be back this afternoon at 2 o'clock, starting sharp on the hour. Those who are on the subcommittee will have a brief meeting now.
The committee recessed from 1158 to 1407.
JEFFREY TWINN
Review of intended appointment, selected by opposition party: Jeffrey Twinn, intended appointee as member, Pesticides Advisory Committee.
The Vice-Chair: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We'll kick off the afternoon's activities by inviting Mr Jeffrey Twinn, an intended appointee as member of the Pesticides Advisory Committee. Each caucus gets 10 minutes. If Mr Twinn wants to make an opening statement, he's more than welcome to do that, and that will come out of the government caucus's 10 minutes.
Mr Jeffrey Twinn: First of all, I came from Ottawa this morning, and it's the first time I've seen grass since Halloween. We had another six inches last night.
To give a little background on myself, my family is three generations in the pest control business. Actually, my grandfather was one of the leading entomologists with Agriculture Canada. He was a doctor of entomology, and he pioneered black fly and mosquito control in Canada at the time we had encephalitis and malaria outbreaks. Then into the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, my father and brother were involved with it as well.
In the 1980s, I got involved with it, and I've taken it one step further: I've put it on to an environmental edge. I have, since 1988, developed an allergy to a product called chloropyrophos, which is also known as Dursban. I knew if I was to stay in the industry I had to change my whole approach.
In 1990, we took the largest board of education in the Ottawa-Carleton area, which was then spraying schools -- I saw protests and everything -- and I said: "Give me six months. We won't charge you. Let's try some alternative methods." Since then we've been able to get away from chemical applications in the school boards, and I do virtually every school board now in Ottawa-Carleton.
We do one of the hospitals as well now on the pesticide alternative program. I also teach the pesticide licensing course for the Ministry of the Environment at Algonquin College. I haven't this year, but I have in past years. I also consult for the school boards, hospitals, Algonquin College as well, on pest control problems. During the past two years, I've been an active member on the board of directors of the Ontario Pest Control Association. As well, I'm involved with the Canadian Pest Control Association in trying to get new environment-friendly products brought into Canada from the US that are currently backlogged in registration procedures.
The reason I feel I would be a good candidate for this type of position is that I really see the end use of all the products that come into this province. I see them from the time they're introduced to the time they're brought down to our level, which is application, or the consumer.
The pest control industry currently across the country is a $100-million industry, which protects billions of dollars in commodities, health and safety, and of course food products. We provide a very necessary service in the pest control industry. I think we're starting to move away from the 1950s and the 1960s where we were using the harsher chemicals. What we need is a little more access to the amazing products coming out of the United States now, which are getting away from the chemical applications and going into other things like funguses, which attack insects and break them down, insect growth regulators, which are hormones that only attack the insects but have very little effect on mammals.
Those are the areas I'm interested in and I have really taken an interest in trying to take the expertise I've gained over the years and bring it to this committee as somebody who sees where the industry's going over the next 10 years. Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much. We'll start the questioning with the Liberal caucus.
Mr Crozier: Good afternoon, Mr Twinn, and thank you for coming. I'm going to briefly read from some information that's been given to us by research and then I'd like your comments. It has to do with the role that's played federally and how we play the role provincially.
It says, provincially, under the Pesticides Act, the advisory committee reviews the act and its regulations, of course, but, "In addition, the committee recommends classifications for all new federally registered pesticide products before they are sold, stored or used in Ontario; administers and evaluates the results of a research program on pesticides; and publishes an annual report."
On pesticide regulation in Canada, it says it's divided between the federal and provincial governments. "In general terms, the federal government is responsible for registration, classification and labelling, while provincial governments regulate the storage, sale and use...."
The problem, as it's seen in the agricultural community I come from, with this long bureaucratic process we go through -- as a layperson I would ask, if the government of Canada says it's okay, why do we go through what we do in the province of Ontario before it can be used in agriculture? I'm speaking of agriculture specifically.
Mr Twinn: I've always had a passion for streamlining. I think the main necessity for what the Ontario Ministry of Environment does is that it regulates the application and use of products. As far as scheduling products into the province, that has been delayed and our association has complained about that as well. Quebec will get products six months in advance of us because of the delay of scheduling.
In a lot of cases it is duplicated, because Health Canada, which does the registrations, has a recommended scheduling of the product already when it comes out. A classic example of that is a product called Demon, which is cypermethrin; it's organic. Quebec scheduled it as a class 3 pesticide, which means it can be used by somebody who isn't as qualified as a schedule 2. Schedule 2 is a restricted product that is for licensed applicators only. Yet Diazinon, Dursban, a whole host of them are schedule 3 because they were registered years ago. In that case, I think the scheduling should be taken off them by recommendation of the feds, who have taken the EPA recommendations and put it into the Health Canada ones. Plus, in Canada we have the advantage of doing dual testing.
Mr Crozier: Are you familiar with an insecticide called Admire?
Mr Twinn: I know it's an agricultural insecticide. I'm not familiar with the trade name, though, as to the active ingredient.
Mr Crozier: The active ingredient -- and I probably won't be able to pronounce this -- is imidacloprid. I want to give the committee an example of our concern with this long, bureaucratic system we have to go through. For example, this was registered for emergency use last year on potatoes, and we're not sure whether they've given it the full-blown go-ahead yet, and now tomato growers want it. It's to get rid of a little bug. I wondered if you were familiar with it.
Mr Twinn: I'm familiar with the situation. They get a limited-use registration from Health Canada. The problem is more or less at the federal level, which will allow a product to be brought in on a limited-use registration in any type of circumstance, if it can be shown that it's for that one purpose at that one time of year or whatever.
The other end of the problem is that the company that's selling it to you for that limited-use registration is down in the US, and they say: "Canada's got a population of about half of California, and it's going to cost us $30 million or $40 million to register this label. We don't think it's feasible for us to do that in Canada because we can go sell it in California and not have to pay the extra money."
Most of the problem, we have always found, is at the federal level, not the provincial. The provincial is quite quick to get the product out. I attended a seminar with Health Canada last November where we talked to the person in charge of registering these products, and they've assured us that streamlining will be coming; of course, they assured us that last year. But they said they are streamlining it now so they can take applications from the US and they're not going to be duplicating the tests that have already been made by the EPA in the US. That's where everything was bogged down.
Mr Crozier: You've kind of hit the nail on the head. Do you feel that in your position on the advisory committee at a provincial level you could actively promote this streamlining? Would you do that? Do you see where you could do that?
Mr Twinn: One of my goals is to do that. I was talking to one of the people from the Pesticides Advisory Committee. They said they were discussing having a meeting in July in Ottawa, their monthly meeting in Ottawa at Health Canada, at the pesticide registration. That's a big step right there in trying to pressure the government.
It was Agriculture Canada; they moved it into Health Canada, because they were both responsible for registering, and then it went into Health Canada where it sort of sat on the back shelf for the last eight months while they've been trying to rearrange their bureaucracy to get it going. They assured us it'll only take two to four years now to get a product registered.
Mr Crozier: What happens is that to some extent, I assume, the pesticides are used in the United States. They ship the product into Canada. To what degree do we regulate that? Or is it simply that a product gets used down there and we eat it, but we can't use it here because it isn't registered yet?
Mr Twinn: You mean if they're spraying the oranges with ethylene dibromide, it's not registered in Canada, but it's still used in the States?
Mr Crozier: Yes.
Mr Twinn: It's really hard. I mean, where do we start? Tobacco is one of the major sources of taking DDT into your body; when you ignite a cigarette, you are actually inhaling the DDT into your lungs and it deposits into your fat cells and sits there. Third World countries use DDT on tobacco crops and everything else, and every time you lose weight that DDT goes into your blood. Where do we start? Do we start with tobacco and say, "We won't bring in tobacco, so that really limits it"? Then we go with fresh fruits like oranges and apples and peaches, and it just goes on and on.
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The world uses far too many chemicals. A lot of the stuff coming out of the US now is far superior. Their research is probably 20 years ahead of ours in pesticides, the stuff they've come out with. Purdue University has done a marvellous job in bringing out new, safe, organic products and everything else. We have to get our federal government up to speed to bring these products to us so we can register them for use in Ontario. Then maybe down the road we can look at products coming from the Third World. Tobacco from Mexico is full of DDT.
Mr Crozier: I'm certainly counting on you to do that from the provincial standpoint. I have no problem whatsoever in getting after that doggone federal government and its bureaucracy to do this. I'm glad to hear that's the approach you would take.
Mr Twinn: Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: It's now the NDP's time.
Ms Churley: I'm going to come at this from the environmental perspective, which is a slightly different perspective from my colleague from the Liberal Party, but I'm sure he would agree that these are very valid questions.
Vis-à-vis the concerns around competitiveness in the agricultural business, I understand that the issues raised are extremely important ones. But on the other side of the coin, it's interesting that this morning we had somebody who has been appointed to the Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation. We didn't go into a lot of details about the many assumed causes of cancer and proven causes of cancer, but we do have some information about some pesticides -- some more dangerous than others -- being harmful to human health, including that in some cases they can cause cancer.
I understand that one of the roles of the Pesticides Advisory Committee is to help protect the health of Ontarians, that you can go beyond the federal regulatory structure. It's my understanding that we do have in some cases more stringent controls than perhaps in other provinces.
Mr Twinn: We do.
Ms Churley: I thought so. That brings up the whole question around competitiveness, when we have that problem and the issue you brought up about the kind of chemicals on fruits and vegetables from Mexico. I know that's a big, difficult issue to resolve but I'm really strongly in support and favour of limiting, to the extent we can, pesticide use that can be harmful to human health, also in areas beyond agriculture, in domestic uses: lawns and, in cities, on urban ways.
Having laid a little groundwork, I would like you to expand a bit on what you said in your introduction, which I was very pleased to hear: the work you have done on alternative methods. Do you have any idea of where we're going with that in Ontario, what kind of input you could provide, and how you see the balance between the two, given the problems being discussed here today?
Mr Twinn: First of all, just to correct, I didn't say I didn't like the provincial waiting period over the federal; it is a good place for second thought. But another purpose of the committee is research, publications which help our industry, help the lawn care industry, help the agricultural industry. It plays a very important role in that.
What have I done to this point in the industry myself? We had pioneered schools that had environmentally sensitive children in certain schools where they had cockroaches. Of course, that's sort of the curse of mankind: Two roaches make 100,000 roaches a year, and a misapplication of a chemical will only get rid of 90% of them, and then 30 days later you have the whole population built back plus 10% more. They carry disease and everything else. So we had to look at alternatives. We've used roach baits, we've used monitors, lures, everything possible, and we've been able to get rid of them where the sanitation's high and everything on those levels, rather than rush in and just start to spray.
The most important thing we found was monitoring. In all our accounts and all the lecturing I do it's so important that you monitor so that when the first evidence of an infestation of any insect is found -- whether it's agriculture, because you can use integrated pest management in agriculture, you can use flying lure traps and everything else. When those insects first appear, that's the time an application may be needed, or, in this case, using alternative methods. They're easy to control at the beginning. It's when you walk into a situation where the building's moving or the field is gone already that you have a problem. There are more insects per square acre in the planet than there are people.
Ms Churley: That's an interesting fact.
Mr Twinn: Yes, and insects are our main competitor for food source on the planet. When they originally brought out pesticide, the reason they did this was the fact that they needed famine control. Today we have methods other than just the pesticides.
In answering your question, "Where do you see it moving in the next 10 years?" the Ontario Pest Control Association, that I'm with, is doing update training things across the province for all the people in the association. Landscape Ontario is doing the same thing. They're trying to get away from the chemical dependencies. There's a guy right now in Waterloo who's pioneered a new way to do lawn care; it's excellent. It's called Total Plant Health Care. It's excellent. The other organic methods were never proven to work. His method works. So we can look forward to seeing that coming over the next few years.
Ms Churley: So you seem to even be excited about looking at some of these alternative, non-pesticide chemicals.
Mr Twinn: Well, I have two kids in school and they have to grow up and eat out of the food chain as well, and I'm a sufferer of pesticide allergies. I have very little tolerance to organophosphates, which is the main chemical in lawn care for chinch-bug and it's also a main product to use for cockroaches and other things.
Ms Churley: Do you have any contact, in your present capacity, and do you work with environmental groups who are specifically working in this area, and what kind of relationship do you have?
Mr Twinn: No. They drag me out of the cupboard every time they do pesticide debate talks, though, for the municipal councils up in Ottawa. So that's the only time that I really have any exposure to that.
Ms Churley: I think my colleague has a question.
Mr Kormos: Around five minutes, according to my watch.
The Vice-Chair: You've got about four minutes.
Mr Kormos: Thank you, Chair. We'll defer to your watch.
Thank you, kindly. I think everybody here is pretty impressed with what you've come up with. Had you ever applied for a BAC -- boards, agencies, commissions -- appointment before?
Mr Twinn: No, I haven't.
Mr Kormos: What happened in your life that prompted your application for this position?
Mr Twinn: Our company has grown significantly over the last 15 years. I have the luxury of having since last spring two new employees. I decided to start teaching and do other things. That's what the motivating factor was.
Mr Kormos: You were clearly aware of the board.
Mr Twinn: Oh, that's part of what we teach. OPAC is one of the few actual committees that is right in an act; it's in the Pesticides Act.
Mr Kormos: You see, I suppose I should cut to the chase, because I haven't got too much time left. Our job here, among other things, is to find out all the Tory hacks that the government is appointing.
Ms Churley: "Are you a Tory hack?" Is that what you're saying?
Mr Kormos: Not that the last government was particularly good at patronage; I mean, I think we appointed more Liberals and Tories than we did New Democrats, and there's a whole lot of angry ones out there in our ridings. There's nothing wrong with patronage as long as it's competent people. Now, there were a couple of stinkers here already today. You fortunately, to your credit, are not in that group of Tory hack stinkers. Let's cut to the chase. Is your MPP a Tory? Did you vote for him and support him and that's how you picked up this plum position that pays so much?
Mr Twinn: My MPP is Jean-Marc Lalonde. I live in Prescott-Russell. He's a Liberal.
Mr Kormos: I'm sorry. I hope I didn't screw you up now.
Mr Bob Wood: All right, that's the end.
Interjections: Next.
Mr Kormos: Go ahead.
Mr Twinn: Did I vote for him and everything? Well, I'm not going to mention that.
Mr Kormos: I'm not going to ask you how you voted. Did you actively campaign for a Tory candidate, contribute money? That's public record.
Mr Twinn: I did not contribute money. I did, with Pierre Leduc's campaign for the PCs in Prescott-Russell -- he came to me and asked me to consult, because we are an agricultural riding, on crop protection. And that's what I did.
Mr Kormos: If the Tories would appoint more people like you, the boards, agencies and commissions would be in a hell of a lot better shape, instead of some of those stinker hacks that you brought before us this morning. Thank you, sir.
Mr Preston: If he agrees with you, sir, you must have something to hide.
Mr Twinn: Oh, no. What have I done?
The Vice-Chair: You still have a minute and a half left, Mr Kormos.
Mr Kormos: Ms Churley may want to talk to this gentleman.
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Ms Churley: I already did, but I wanted to make sure my colleague had time for his very important, urgent question: "Are you a Tory hack?"
Mr Kormos: I didn't have to ask it, because we can tell which ones are the Tories hacks. They're the incompetent ones.
Ms Churley: I wanted to ask you a direct question. Would you consider yourself to be an environmentalist?
Mr Twinn: An "environmentalist." That's an interesting term, and it's a loaded question.
Ms Churley: I'm not asking you if you're a feminist, now. That's really loaded. That's next.
Mr Twinn: I think I'm a realist. Often environmentalists, as you put the term, live on -- the left side? No. They often live in a reality that isn't there. Industry doesn't see them, unfortunately. I think I'm a realist. I think I can exist within a framework and change the system so that it would become environmentally friendly at a practical cost, and that's the reality of it.
The reality of it is that Greenpeace has been protesting the nuclear testing in the South Pacific and nothing has happened. So the reality is, you've got work with the system that's there. So I guess I'm a realist, and I want my kids to grow up in an environment that isn't going to have pesticides.
Ms Churley: So not withstanding your realist view of what environmentalism is all about, because of your kids and your own allergies, you're certainly not averse to working with the government, and indeed perhaps pushing the government, if you know of the existence of pesticides where there is evidence that it causes harm to human health. What I'm trying to get at it is, I'd like to know that I can count on you to fight for the health of the people of Ontario.
Mr Twinn: Absolutely. But you've got remember that pesticides also --
The Vice-Chair: Your time is up. We need to move on to the Conservative caucus. Maybe they'll ask you the same question; who knows? But you have about six and a half minutes left.
Mr Leadston: You obviously have a very impressive background and involvement, and certainly you're eloquent in speaking to the subject, because it's very enlightening to myself and I'm sure to everyone in this room. What would you see as the major purpose of the advisory board, in terms of being there? What would be your focus? Is there any one particular area that you would concentrate on?
Mr Twinn: I think one thing that we'd be looking at is the streamlining to get products in. There's always a need. Why I was stating there are more insects per square acre than there are people is there will always be a need for some measure of control. The streamlining of the system; research is very important. I think that's the way to the future with chemical controls. As the earth reaches six billion people, if we don't have a handle on the bugs, we're going to have mass famine. So these are things that are coming. Global warming could offset so we'll actually need more chemicals to offset the fact that certain insects will thrive better, and they will adapt to global warming; we may not.
I'd see research as being the main one. I would see helping maybe in education as well, which is the licensing part of it. That's another focus. Of course, the other important thing too is trying to make the act and regulations a little different than it is, I hope over the next few years, because that act was written 25 years ago.
Mr Leadston: Just a supplementary. As a country, we do import a great abundance of produce and consumable goods -- I don't mean automobiles and tires and things like that. But what role would the advisory group play with Third World countries? You spoke of Mexico with tobacco and other parts of the world that foodstuffs are being imported from and we're consuming. What role would that advisory group play?
Mr Twinn: In bringing in these products? I think what it is is that we are limited on how much power the province really has. It's the feds who will -- all we can do is recommend and say, "Whoa, look what's in our tobacco" or "Look, ethylene dibromide in our oranges" or something like this, so that it is public knowledge, because you just can't stop the flood of this stuff that comes in. I don't think it's practical. I think what we have to do is, again, the education, to inform the consumer that these products are in this, and you eat them or you smoke them or whatever you're doing with them at your own risk. I think that's part of what I was talking about, the education of it.
Mr Leadston: Is DDT widely used throughout the Third World countries?
Mr Twinn: It still is, yes.
Mr Fox: As a user of pesticides and insecticides -- and you did say the US is 20 years ahead of us in research -- the US standards don't qualify in Ontario without provincial review, yet we eat the US produce six months of the year. I have a problem with this. As far as the Ontario Pesticides Advisory Committee, it's duplication with the feds. The thing is, other provinces could be duplicating too and also doing the same research that we're doing here in Ontario. So my strong feeling is we don't need this in Ontario. We should put our efforts into a federal program, and you'd be part of that. Comment?
Mr Twinn: First of all, yes. Am I doing myself out of a job here? What you say is true. I'm sorry, it is. I agree. We're not talking here about second schools of thought and everything else; we're talking about keeping up. The chemical industry is changing, not quite as fast but almost as fast as the computer industry. What we knew about a product two years ago isn't true today. Products available are coming in so quickly. Bureaucracies slow that down. They take all that information that's old now and we debate it too long, and by then who knows where the usage went? That's the other problem.
Streamlining is very important. The EPA -- it takes about two or three years to get a product into the US. That's because they really do streamline them through. We have one extra test in Canada. We do what's called efficacy testing, which means that the product must do what the label says it does, which I fully agree on. We can take their health and safety data, but we should at least have the efficacy data. The label should do what it says it does.
But what we do, what goes on at the federal level, is horrible. If the application is written wrong, they don't respond, and six months later they're there saying, "How come we never got a response?" "Well, you didn't sign this part of the application" or "Oh, gee, sorry, there was a typo so we threw it out." This is true. This is what goes on there. It's completely non-user-friendly, and I think that's why streamlining is really important.
Mr Fox: The biggest sticker to US chemicals is the fact that they're in US measurements and we're in metric and we're not allowed to bring them across the border on that base. The other problem is that's got to be corrected here, because we could have a bootleg system out there; that's got to be controlled.
Mr Twinn: In agriculture, there is. I think another area of concern that nobody's really aware of as well is that the lawn care and the structural pest control industries only use about 11% or 12% of the total pesticides used in Ontario. Over 50% is used by the homeowner, and the rest is agriculture. So the homeowner uses the majority of it, the neighbour who stands out there in the sandals and the shorts and sprays the lawn in the high wind drifts, and my kid's running across it because there are no signs.
I think those are things we can address, because in Ontario we're responsible for enforcement regulations. In BC, you cannot walk in and just buy Killex. You have to walk to the back, and you get a lesson on what's on the label and what you have to do and when it can be done. In Ontario, we don't have that yet. You can go to Canadian Tire and just pick up whatever you want.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much, Mr Twinn. We are appreciative of your effort to get here today, and your being here has been helpful.
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GRAHAME BASKERVILLE
Review of intended appointment, selected by the third party: Grahame Baskerville, intended appointee as member, Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton Police Services Board.
The Chair: Next on the list this afternoon is Mr Grahame Baskerville. Mr Baskerville, please make yourself comfortable. I believe you were going to make an opening statement; that will come out of the Conservative caucus's time.
Mr Grahame Baskerville: I thought I'd just give a little résumé of who I am and what I've done and how I feel I bring some talents to this position in the Ottawa-Carleton police services board.
I've been employed for the past five years as a senior audit officer in the management audit division of the Department of National Defence. Prior to that time I completed 34 years in both the regular and reserve components of the Canadian Forces. This service included integrated exchange positions with two foreign governments as well as a variety of positions as an operations and as a staff officer. I have represented these countries as well as Canada at international meetings, committees and conferences, where I believe I developed negotiating and diplomatic skills which will be apropos to the position I'm being reviewed for.
Also in my terms in the service, and particularly as the commanding officer of a major militia unit, I've been responsible for the planning and conduct of training, all aspects of administration, recruiting of personnel, and the financial management of a significant pay budget.
In previous Canadian Forces and public service employment I've gained experience in general management, human resource management, project management, organizational analysis, policy development, budgeting and financial control. My previous employment, as well as my post-graduate training in operations research, has allowed me to develop skills that are related to the review and analysis of organizations and their practices and procedures, budget analysis, analysis and development of policies and procedures, all of which I believe will allow me to contribute to the proceedings of the board and to carry out my responsibility as a member of the Ottawa-Carleton police services board.
I believe I will bring to the police board an approach that is pragmatic, which will allow me, with other members of the board, to make decisions based on the logical presentation of facts and evidence. I believe my past experience will allow me to quickly understand and become familiar with the operations of the police force and to identify the top priority areas.
I will be looking forward to fostering the amalgamation process of the previous separate police services and to identifying, along with the chief of police and members of the board, areas in which efficiencies and economy can be realized, yet still maintaining the effectiveness of the police service in these times of fiscal restraint.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much, Mr Baskerville. We will start the questioning with the New Democrats.
Mr Kormos: There's a couple of areas, sir, I've got to tell you, that are of some concern, and please tell us whether you've been quoted correctly at all. One is a newspaper report where you're written as having said that "The police service is a parallel structure to the military." I appreciate your military background and the experience that one acquires there. My sense, from speaking with police associations, is that there is great pleasure among police officers at a drift away from the traditional paramilitary structure of the police force. Are you pleased with that drift, and how do you reconcile that then with the reference to the parallel structure to the military?
Mr Baskerville: What I was quoted was, I was asked by the press what I brought to it, and they asked me about my military experience. I pointed out there is a parallel structure in that the police have operations which are similar to what -- you have a command and control element so you can control police operations. That is parallel. The police force has to recruit, to have standards of recruitment and training. Those again are very much related to the activities that take place in the military. There is a hierarchy, because there are sergeants who are responsible for beats and patrol areas, there are inspectors, so there is a supervisory level which parallels that of many organizations, not just military but many businesses, what have you. So there is that structure.
So I was saying that in terms of my military experience and the knowledge of how operations work and how command and control works and some of the skills that police officers need, this parallelism, if you want, would allow me to have an appreciation and perhaps a good understanding of what police officers are required to do and how they could be assisted in carrying out their responsibilities.
Mr Kormos: Of course, police forces aren't unionized but police associations have, over the recent past, become more and more akin to unions, speaking out clearly on behalf of their membership. Although Ottawa-Carleton may not be cited as a very specific example, certainly in Toronto we've seen worker actions taken in protest of unpopular or unfair, perceived as unfair, decisions by supervision. What's your sense of the role of police associations and the rights of police officers vis-à-vis this, granted, model of hierarchy of command?
Mr Baskerville: You say they are not a union. Yes, they're probably not legally such but they function as such and represent the interests of police officers as a whole. The police services board has the role of negotiating with the associations in terms of remuneration and the contracts that they have. You were saying, how do I see them fitting in with a hierarchical situation?
Mr Kormos: Yes. Is there a conflict there, in your view?
Mr Baskerville: I see no conflict if there's good communications between the -- I hate to use the term "command level," but perhaps between the supervisory or executive level of the police service and the board. If there are good relations, if there's good understanding, then it's not becoming hierarchical, in the sense that it becomes part of negotiating, on communicating with them to identify their concerns and to address them in a pragmatic approach so that we can give the people the protection the citizens want.
I would say, with respect to this hierarchical structure, when you are in a police situation where there is an emergency or something goes on, then yes, it's very definitely hierarchical and it is a command. An inspector of police or a sergeant of police will give instructions to police constables and expect them to be carried out, because that is what has to happen when operations are ongoing and you are trying to apprehend criminals, or things of this nature.
Mr Kormos: You understand, I'm sure, that the government may have illegally terminated the four police services board members after the Hydro decision and there have certainly been reports of pending litigation.
Mr Baskerville: I was made aware of that in the press when in fact my name was announced.
Mr Kormos: Quite right. Are you prepared to defer your appointment until these people have served out their term, if indeed they were, as it appears to be, illegally fired and the government is forced to reinstate them to the police board?
Mr Baskerville: I believe the process is that they are order-in-council appointments, and my understanding of our constitutional system of government is that they are at the pleasure of Her Majesty, and therefore Her Majesty's or Her Majesty's government's wishes, to terminate or appoint. That is at the option of the government and therefore I have no particular comment to make on that.
Mr Kormos: Fair enough. You also have been quoted as saying that the makeup of the police force should reflect the community, and again, granted, it's a brief quote in the paper and a brief reference, but you don't appear gung-ho about visible-minority and women police officers.
Mr Baskerville: That is not true. I was asked what I thought about hiring minorities and so on and I made the statement, and you obviously have a quote there.
Mr Kormos: "`Ideally, police should reflect the community, but there are other parameters,' he said."
Mr Baskerville: That is right. First of all I'll state that I believe what I said is true and hence I believe that women, aboriginals, visible minorities should be recruited into the force and have the opportunity for career advancement. I believe that policies and practice for recruiting and employment should be inclusive and improve opportunities for underrepresented groups.
However, I do not believe that ethnicity or gender should outweigh knowledge, skills and abilities. To that end, I do not support the use of rigid quotas. I don't support the hiring of unqualified persons. I don't support the lowering of standards and waiving consideration of merit or giving preferential treatment.
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Ms Churley: Just to follow up on that, it's an area of great concern to me. I agree with what you just said in terms of how hiring should be done by merit. But one of the problems that we found, that certainly our government found -- and the employment equity has been removed as we envisioned it and there's nothing in its place now -- is that there are a lot of qualified people out there among women and racial minorities. The problem we saw is that there were difficulties and impediments to those people getting their foot in the door to prove that they might be the best candidate, or in fact they have different cultural ways of expressing themselves or whatever so are sometimes misunderstood.
So I think we agree to the end we want, to see the best people hired, but maybe we disagree about the method. I'd like to know how you would envision making sure that those racial minorities and women are represented to reflect their community, your community. It absolutely is very important to the police themselves to have minorities within, say, my community, which has Chinese- and Vietnamese-speaking people. The police need these people to be able to work with them in those communities, so how would you see doing that?
Mr Baskerville: It's a very valid question. I would like to start by saying that in my present position -- I'm in the federal public service -- I'm a member of an employment equity advisory group within our particular organization and I am very familiar with how the federal government act applies to federal government employees. Taking a page from their notes, I believe what we are into is an education process of all members of the police force, especially those at managerial levels. We have to reduce barriers. We have to also go out to the communities and promote the idea that "Yes, we want you people; if you're qualified and meet the standards, we want you in the police services."
When I lived in Toronto a number of years ago, there were problems here of getting members of the oriental community to even step forward. I understand they've taken quite a bit of action and even at one point got people on loan from the Hong Kong police services and so on because they had a problem. But there was not, as I understand, at the time any particular desire for members who were oriental to join the police service, so there has to be a multilevel approach.
We have to get the message out that we're looking for good people from these groups and also the management of the police force has to be prepared to eliminate barriers for their recruitment and their promotion and advancement. So it's education, essentially.
Ms Churley: I only have 20 seconds left. Would you support having a gender balance and a real balance of backgrounds on the police services board in Ottawa-Carleton, and would you work for that?
Mr Baskerville: On the police services board?
Ms Churley: On the board itself.
Mr Baskerville: First of all, I'm not responsible for putting nominations forward.
Ms Churley: Absolutely not. That's not my question. But would you as a board member --
Mr Baskerville: Put it this way: I can work with members of all sorts of groups. I've done so in my military experience. I've done it in the public service, whether they're women, ethnic groups, what have you. I have no problems. It is somebody else's decision who they want on a particular board, and I would look forward to -- if there are members on a board who are women or of an ethnic background, I have no problem working with them. I won't say, again coming back, who is best for the job.
Ms Churley: I wish I had more time to follow up on that.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much. We'll now move along to the Conservative caucus.
Mr John Hastings (Etobicoke-Rexdale): Mr Baskerville, I'd like to hear from you regarding your sense of innovation as a priority in serving on the police commission in Ottawa-Carleton. I would imagine that budgets will be severely declining there, and in most police organizations today a large number of our cops aren't on the beat, they aren't involved in front-line activities. Unfortunately, in many instances they are captives of administrative systems that require a lot of paper being pushed through to get convictions etc.
I'd like to know specifically how you would use your background from national defence to reduce the amount of paperwork and to get the few cops we have left in our organizations out into the community. Do you have specific suggestions in that regard?
Mr Baskerville: I don't have specific suggestions line by line, but I know what I will be looking at. In fact, Chief Ford phoned me on Monday asking if I needed some information, and had I received copies of their most recent budget submission? I spoke with him and I raised my concerns about exactly what you said. He said they are taking actions, in many ways, of considering special constables to take over some of the roles, civilianizing some positions, which in effect reduces the wage cost because the most costly part is the -- I wouldn't say the highest salary, but the incrementally higher salaries that a police constable has compared to a special constable or a civilian employee. Those are areas that I would look at. I would want to see the process of how work is done. Perhaps I can bring my background to get in and sort of do a management consulting type of survey in particular areas to identify how we can release people.
For instance, we talked about the mini-police station, community policing, and that's one part of it, and community policing is not just these mini-police stations. There are other things. How cost-effective is it to have a first-class constable sitting behind a counter phoning people, distributing pamphlets and so on? The work has to be done and it's part of that communication with the community, but there is an area that again we should look at. It was in the budget submission by the chief of police that these are areas they're going to look at. I would certainly be following up in those particular areas.
Mr Bob Wood: Are you prepared to implement the human rights policies of the Ontario government when you're on this board?
Mr Baskerville: Policies and laws have to be obeyed, so therefore, if it is legislation, then we as a board have a requirement to conform to the legislation. I don't know if there's a bit more behind your question. I understand, for instance, the employment equity provision of the Police Services Act was just rescinded before Christmas.
Mr Bob Wood: I think you've answered the question. The answer to my question is yes, I take it.
Mr Baskerville: Yes, I would.
Mr Bob Wood: Okay. The second question I have: I'm told that the Ottawa Citizen said this about you:
"If the Ottawa-Carleton police services board becomes a tougher, more efficient organization, Grahame Baskerville will be one of those responsible."
I hope that speculation is correct, and if it is, I'd like you to tell me what you would propose to do in order to achieve a tougher, more efficient organization?
Mr Baskerville: They were querying me very much, like you people are today, of what background I bring, and I mentioned my management experience. What I see doing is, with the other members of the board, looking very carefully at all the processes, procedures, hierarchies, the organization to see how we can get more policemen out doing police work and the support services and so on being reduced to those things that are essential to providing good community policing. We'll also be having to look at how the structure is done.
The chief of police, I understand, is looking at a different organization with respect to setting up districts. We'll have to look at that very carefully. We'll also have to make sure that all the police energy is not focused just on the urban core, the city of Ottawa, that all the other municipalities, especially what are sometimes referred to as the lower-tier municipalities -- in other words, the rural townships -- get adequate policing. These are all the areas that I would want to look at and hopefully I will take, as a I said earlier, a pragmatic approach.
I want the police administration to come forward with ideas and I will be looking for things where they can spell out in dollars-and-cents terms what savings they can achieve; and for anything they want to do, what the impact would be on direct police activities, because there is a rising concern with crime in the city and we have to get out there and fight it. Crime does not remain in one city. It spreads over boundaries, from one municipality into the other, which is why actually I'm in favour of this amalgamated police force. I think once we get over the initial readjustment phase, it can support and deliver a very good service to the citizens of the Ottawa-Carleton region.
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Mr Leadston: Sir, how did you come to know about the vacancy on the board and how were you approached?
Mr Baskerville: I didn't know that there was a "vacancy." I was approached to see if my name could be allowed to go forward for this. After some discussion of what was involved I said: "Very well, put my name forward if you feel that I can serve my community." That is what happened. Then later on I was interviewed by many people.
Mr Leadston: Who approached you initially?
Mr Baskerville: Initially it was my member of provincial Parliament who said that my name had come up as being a suitable person, and would I allow him to send it forward? Unofficially, I've come to learn that there was discussion locally among other MPPs and other local and municipal politicians discussing suitable candidates and so on. Then I was approached by people in the Ministry of the Solicitor General. By that time I realized it had reached that level and they reviewed me and interviewed me, so here I am today.
The Vice-Chair: We'll now move to the Liberal caucus for their questions.
Mr Crozier: Good afternoon, Mr Baskerville. Who is your provincial member of Parliament?
Mr Baskerville: Mine is the member for Nepean, Mr John Baird.
Mr Crozier: That's a Conservative member, right?
Mr Baskerville: Yes, he's a Conservative member.
Mr Crozier: In hearing you before the committee, I'm impressed by what you've had to say and I'm sure that you understand the circumstances under which you were appointed --
Mr Baskerville: Yes, I do.
Mr Crozier: -- although you may not be aware of the circumstances in which the persons you are replacing were taken off the board. I want to make sure that you feel comfortable, being appointed to the police services board, in that it's my information that under section 25 of the Police Services Act, 1990, it says after a hearing of the commission -- this is the Ontario --
Mr Baskerville: Police service commission, is it?
Mr Crozier: No. It's the Ontario civil commission, or the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services; it may not be civil. The Ontario civilian commission -- that "after a hearing" of the commission, and it's determined that "a member...is not performing" his or her duties or "is guilty of misconduct," the commission "may remove or suspend the member." Only if the commission has suspended or removed a member from office shall "the Lieutenant Governor in Council...appoint a person to replace the" removed member. My understanding is that part II clearly directs that the investigation, suspension or removal of the board member is to be done by the civilian commission. Do you have any knowledge of that process?
Mr Baskerville: Now that you mention it, I recall reading that in general when I was reading the Police Services Act. I will admit that I am not familiar with every detailed clause of it, but I have read the Police Services Act and what you have just said refreshes my memory. I'm not a lawyer and I don't think it would be right for me to comment on the legality of how the law or regulations pertaining to the law should be interpreted. I have perhaps my own opinions and so on which I would develop over time, but in that particular case I don't really think I'm competent to comment on how that provision should or should not be enacted.
Mr Crozier: That's fine. If your appointment should conclude in your being on the board, would you object if you were removed from the board for any reason other than those that I have given?
Mr Baskerville: I think it was Mr Kormos who raised this earlier, and I said our present system of government, in the Lieutenant Governor in Council, has that authority; I understand order-in-council appointments can be terminated. I may be wrong, but I'm comfortable living within that system.
Mr Crozier: But with all due respect, we just covered a section that you said refreshed your memory, where it doesn't simply say that a person can be removed. There has to be cause.
Let me put it this way: If your best advice were given to the government, would you suggest that appointments to the police services board and removal of members should not be political, but that there should be the fact that they were not performing their duty or were guilty of misconduct?
Mr Baskerville: Again, I'm not of the legal profession, and what you're saying --
Mr Crozier: You must have an opinion, though. Do you have an opinion as a taxpayer?
Mr Baskerville: What you're saying, Mr Crozier, is right, just taking those words, but perhaps in the context of the overall act it's specifically for misconduct or non-performance. There are perhaps other acts, other legislation, which allows people to be removed. I do not know the details and therefore I don't think I can really comment.
Mr Crozier: It's my intention, before the day is over, Mr Chair, to put a question on the committee's record asking the Solicitor General for some explanation relative to the act in terms of why certain members of the board were removed recently.
Mr Kormos: On a point of order, Mr Chair: It's not Mr Baskerville who's going to be in trouble; it's these guys who'd better transfer their homes into their spouses' hands.
Mr Sergio: Mr Chair, this takes a lot of time. That should be out of their five minutes.
Mr Kormos: Far be it from me to take your time.
The Vice-Chair: I stopped the clock, so go ahead.
Mr Sergio: That's very nice of you. Mr Baskerville, how long have you been living in the area?
Mr Baskerville: In the Ottawa-Carleton area?
Mr Sergio: Or Nepean, or wherever.
Mr Baskerville: I have been living in my present residence for eight years. Prior to that, I was three years in Metro Toronto; prior to that it was five years in Nepean; prior to that I was living in the United Kingdom; prior to that the United States. Probably the greatest percentage of time in my adult life I've lived in the Ottawa-Carleton area.
Mr Sergio: At the beginning of your presentation you said that because of your experience you would be able to quickly recognize a priority problem area. Would you know offhand of any particular priority problem you would like to tackle if appointed to the commission?
Mr Baskerville: Yes. There is an ongoing thing that has to be resolved --
Mr Sergio: I have a couple of other questions, if you can be brief, please.
Mr Baskerville: Yes. One is getting the contracts with the senior officers' association and the civilian employees done, because right now we're still working under separate work contracts. Those have to be negotiated and finalized.
The other thing is the question of the Ontario Provincial Police -- which is now on contract; it has to be renewed, and it's bogging down -- for the areas they police. That would be an issue we'd have to resolve and might have to look at whether our police force would pick that up.
Mr Sergio: In answer to another question, you mentioned that there is a severe crime problem which must be attacked. Are you aware of a severe crime problem? What would you suggest, what kind of program would you be contemplating to assist in that particular problem?
Mr Baskerville: Based on my knowledge, which I get from the press and so on -- I have not demanded any detailed thing from the police yet until such time as my appointment is confirmed -- there is concern about rising drug problems. The police have just had some recent success: In cooperation with other police forces, they did a very large drug bust and apprehended many people.
There is also teenage crime. There was a very bad incident recently with some teenagers who captured and tortured some other teenagers in a most violent and degrading way with respect to their private parts. That is a cause of concern, that this type of violent crime is occurring in such young people. If I am appointed, I will have to discuss that with other members of the board and with the police force, how we can best get information about what is happening out there and so on.
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Mr Sergio: Given the aura of budget cuts and so forth and considering the number of problems, how would you maintain the level of services and possibly improve other services in the area with less money?
Mr Baskerville: I think I've already alluded to some. We have to get in and cut out the paper fat, you might say, and the unnecessary procedures, and also look at putting policemen out working, either doing detective work or patrolling, not having them pushing files and doing other work. As many police officers as possible should be on hardcore police work. Also, substitute them with other people such as special constables or civilians, and we might even look at considering an auxiliary police force. One does not exist in the new -- there were some auxiliary police units in some of the other cities. That is another area we could consider.
Mr Crozier: I just have one last question. With the enthusiasm with which you've answered, you certainly are interested in this appointment, but I would like to get a handle on at what point you would be involved. In other words, a police services board member, from my experience, generally deals with the budgets. Of course, if there's a vacancy of the chief or deputy chief you get directly involved in that, because that's immediately below that level. But when it comes to appointments to the force itself, the police, generally that recommendation comes from the chief in that they go through the hiring process. Do you see yourself getting involved in the detail of the hiring process?
Mr Baskerville: There's a section of the act which says that the police services board should not get involved in the day-to-day running of the affairs. Perhaps the previous board may have been doing a little too much of that; I shouldn't really make a comment on that. However, yes, I do believe we can obtain information about what's going on, and I mentioned standards.
In the new police force we have to develop -- and it's an ongoing process -- the recruiting and promotion standards, because right now they reflect the separate police forces. This is an area that has to be worked on. We would give the policies, and then the chief and the deputy chiefs would develop the details. I see the board as providing general guidance of what we would like to see and then I believe we have the right to review the policies and procedures they have developed under our guidance, which is part of our supervisory role in the performance of the chief and his deputies.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you, Mr Baskerville. It was good of you to come today. Your being here was helpful.
Mr Baskerville: Thank you very much.
LAWRENCE KEOGH
Review of intended appointment, selected by third party: Lawrence Keogh, intended appointee as member, Town of New Tecumseth Police Services Board.
The Vice-Chair: The next person on the agenda is Mr Lawrence Keogh, intended appointee as member, Town of New Tecumseth Police Services Board. Mr Keogh, are you going to make an opening statement?
Mr Lawrence Keogh: I certainly would, if that's all right.
The Vice-Chair: No problem. As we've always done, it comes out of the Conservative caucus's time.
Mr Keogh: First of all, I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to serve on this police services board for New Tecumseth. I'd have to say that my past experiences and the skills I have developed certainly will make this appointment, I think, very appropriate.
Just a bit of background: As the principal for 11 years of Banting Memorial High School, which is the largest of 14 high schools in Simcoe county, I certainly developed expertise in assisting with the development of policies and guidelines, the review process, report writing and the implementation of a multitude of regulations and terms of several acts.
Many initiatives adopted by other schools in Simcoe county, both separate and public, were pioneered at Banting. The team approach made the implementation of these new initiatives much easier. With a total staff at Banting of 190, 130 of whom are teaching staff, I was always hiring, conducting reviews, planning professional development; therefore, employment equity, health and safety, and team-building were always at the forefront.
The staff and students at Banting worked as a team very closely with the community, including many initiatives with the local police force, such as Crime Stoppers, Students Against Drunk Driving, Operation Lookout, and the resource police officer who comes to Banting two afternoons a week. That initiative, which is now in its fourth year, has just been adopted by St Thomas Aquinas High School in Tottenham.
Banting provides lifelong learning for the people of the entire municipality of New Tecumseth and beyond. With a day school population of 2,000 and the multifaceted evening and weekend programs, Banting has been the educational, cultural and recreational centre for a large area, including this municipality. A school-community board of management on which I currently sit also has developed a 13-acre recreational complex adjacent to the school.
With this broad exposure over many years, through long days and evenings, I gained a reputation in the community of trust and energy, of being a good listener and a facilitator of change. Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: We'll start the questioning with the Conservative caucus.
Mr Ford: Mr Keogh, what goals do you have in mind for the board?
Mr Keogh: I attended their meeting on Monday night. I certainly have been working with members of the board and with the police officers in the area for 20 years. I attended their meeting to see what the priorities were and if they were in line with what I might have.
Some of their priorities were to get an extended service office in Alliston. The one we have right now, the lease is running out in March, so we have to replace that because we really are pushing for community policing. The community has its own police committee now, and they're initiating a program called Road Watch, which they adopted from Caledon, which I think in turn they adopted from somewhere out west. I'm very much in favour of promoting that one; to continue the initiatives that the school has set up with Students Against Drunk Driving; Operation Lookout, which just began in 1994. And I was very pleased at the meeting on Monday night, when they had the officer who had been visiting Banting for four years; he was turning that over to a new officer so he could gain further experience --
Mr Ford: What ideas, Mr Keogh, are you bringing, new, fresh ideas?
Mr Keogh: I would like to raise the awareness level that the police services board is in place and have it as a vehicle for better communication with the community, because I believe with the restraints going on in budget, policing is going to become more of a community matter and the public should get involved as well.
There's a review of alarm systems. I have some good input on false alarms in a school of my size, so I have some ideas along that line as well.
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Mrs Ross: Mr Keogh, I'm particularly interested in the work you have done with students. I've heard of MADD, but I wasn't aware that SADD existed. Does it exist in other parts of the province?
Mr Keogh: Yes. In different forms, it exists across the province. There's a countermeasures program which takes place which is put on by the Solicitor General's office, I believe. We have attended that every year. My understanding is that that's been moved from December now till next month, February. We put on workshops for other schools in the county, and they come together with programs that would enhance that. St Thomas Aquinas, our neighbouring school, adopted their program from Banting as well.
Mrs Ross: Can you tell me how big a community New Tecumseth is?
Mr Keogh: It's about 15 miles by 10 miles. Our busing, which takes in a little more than New Tecumseth, covers about 350 square miles.
Mrs Ross: So it's a relatively small community in terms of population.
Mr Keogh: It's sparsely populated in a good part of the area, yes.
Mrs Ross: I have a real bugaboo about community policing. Do you know what community policing is?
Mr Keogh: Community policing is getting everyone involved and getting the officers out on the beat more than sitting in offices punching in reports on computers.
Mrs Ross: Do you think it's a good concept? In New Tecumseth now, do they have community policing?
Mr Keogh: They have community policing. I think it can improve. They have these extended offices. The centre is in Beeton, which is pretty central in New Tecumseth. They have an office in Tottenham and an office in Alliston, which gives them a presence in those two communities. Just last year, the police started using bicycles in the summertime, and it's mandatory for them to be on the sidewalks in the urban areas during part of the summer, when it's tolerable to be out there.
Mr Newman: What are some of the challenges facing the police in the community of New Tecumseth?
Mr Keogh: The new regulations coming through. How to address wife assault -- that's an issue they're reviewing now and trying to respond to that. It certainly isn't a high incidence. I think three were reported in the month of December, and there were no charges laid; there were no grounds for charges. We're looking at these false alarms. It isn't a major disruption, but if it's a problem, should we be recouping some of the time and money spent there?
Mr Newman: You're talking about repeated false alarms?
Mr Keogh: You have to keep in mind that we have a contract OPP force, so they have regulations and guidelines they have set out. Also, how do you free up the police from writing reports and getting them out to public policing issues?
Mr Newman: What is the population of New Tecumseth?
Mr Keogh: It's 21,000. I think you've got a figure of 19,000 or something on the records now, but it's about 21,000.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Preston, do you have a quick question?
Mr Preston: A quick one: How did you get here, sir? Why did you apply for this situation?
Mr Keogh: First of all, the police services board has five members. It's only mandatory for them to have three by the population, and I was aware that the vacancy was there since June. The vice-chair left her position; I think she moved out of the area. This is my second year of retirement, so I was looking for something to do. I had some references that I should apply, so I contacted the government down here to find out what the possibilities were. As a matter of fact, I talked to a couple of my former students who work in this building, who were able to give me some ideas of what the job would entail. I applied, and obviously I've been recommended.
Mr Preston: So it's pretty well on your own initiative that you got here.
Mr Keogh: I got some help --
The Vice-Chair: We'll move on to the Liberal caucus.
Mr Sergio: Sir, you were just saying you had some help. Some help from whom?
Mr Keogh: I asked some questions about, what is the police services board about? I got some information and it was referred to me that we have a secretary right in the municipality, so I went to Pat Belisle and got some information there.
Mr Sergio: I see. You didn't notice it being advertised in the paper?
Mr Keogh: I did not see any advertisement in the paper, no.
Mr Sergio: I notice from your résumé here that you've been teaching in the Alliston area since the early 1960s.
Mr Keogh: That's right.
Mr Sergio: How long have you been living in the area?
Mr Keogh: I was born in New Tecumseth. I worked in Toronto for seven years with Ontario Hydro and I moved back there and started teaching in 1963.
Mr Sergio: Have you been involved in the community there, in the Alliston area? Have you been active?
Mr Keogh: I've been most involved in the community, running the school, which is right in the Alliston community. The doors are open from 7 in the morning till 10 at night and the community has full use of the school.
Mr Sergio: If you had to identify a particular problem connected with the local police department there, what would it be?
Mr Keogh: I'm going from the report which I received -- we get a monthly report at the police services board -- which shows in almost every category the incidents are down, so I can't cite a problem there. The problem is the multitude of paper that they have to deal with and the difficulty in getting them out doing what most of us would prefer they do: interact with the community.
Mr Sergio: So crime, drugs, is not a problem in the area?
Mr Keogh: The only thing that's been up is I guess the same as across the province: The RIDE program came up with a few more incidents this year and theft for this one year is up slightly, but all the other areas are down, very considerably. A good example of that is frauds are down from 155 to 116, break and enters from 184 to 116. Those are the reports that came out in the meeting on Monday night, which was the annual report.
Mr Sergio: If you get the appointment and you're faced with budget cuts, where would you cut?
Mr Keogh: First of all, budget is a matter between the town and the OPP. We don't get involved. That's one thing: When you have a contract with the OPP, the police services board is not involved in budget. They're involved in recommendations about the level of policing, and that would certainly constitute the number of officers. Where would we cut? Maybe one of the things we could do is start charging for false alarms. I know that will bring a lot of revenue, but as principal of that high school I would love to have seen a charge for that same teacher who put it off four times in one year. So I think in some areas like that maybe there's some possibility of recouping.
Mr Sergio: I know that you live in a very touristic region, area. If someone just visiting or going through were to need assistance, would you charge someone -- a tourist, let's say -- because he happens to call in the police department for assistance?
Mr Keogh: On a drug charge?
Mr Sergio: No, he may be stuck on the road or whatever, stopping for assistance.
Mr Keogh: I didn't get a clear handle on that question.
Mr Sergio: If a tourist going through your region would be in need of assistance, would you be charging that particular citizen or tourist a fee for a particular service?
Mr Keogh: A lot of the occurrences that take place in our municipality are people who are passing through. A lot of the thefts are certainly not by residents of New Tecumseth. A lot of thefts are from people outside New Tecumseth. Quite a few of the accidents, and unfortunately fatalities, are from people who are driving through. We're right on a highway.
Mr Crozier: How much time do we have?
The Vice-Chair: You have about six minutes left.
Mr Sergio: And I was rushing.
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Mr Crozier: Thank you, sir, for coming today. I want to get some feeling as to the impact that you feel you can have on your police services board. In that my experience has been from a municipality where the municipality had its own police force, with the OPP on a contract basis, I would feel that perhaps the police services board couldn't have quite the influence on its police service, since it's the OPP. Do you feel there's any impediment there because it is the OPP and not your own municipal police force?
Mr Keogh: I certainly do, but there are a lot of benefits as well. When I had those questions, I decided yesterday to go and visit with Sergeant Allan, who is the sergeant for our area. He's the sergeant for the detachment, and 26 of the 48 policemen serve in New Tecumseth.
One of the concerns was employment equity. When I saw his figures, that 12 out of 48 were females and two were visible minorities, that record isn't as good as my staff at Banting, so I was interested in how that might be improved and what influences he had in hiring. He said he had some influences and they have worked out. But that's one area where we don't have a direct contact. Some of their regulations they like to follow, which are OPP regulations, such as the false alarm, which is a guideline they have put out.
But on the other hand, we have the support of the entire 48 officers if we need them. The training, especially on the new firearms, was all done by the OPP. As a matter of fact, I believe the chief of firearms for Ontario is an OPP officer. If we needed a task force or a force to come in against some major crime in the area, then that's available to us in Barrie, and the fact that the OPP centre is moving to Orillia is a benefit to us as well. So the benefits certainly outweigh the few areas of concern that I might have.
Mr Crozier: That's interesting because, as I had said, my experience hadn't been where there was an OPP force. When you said you were concerned about the number, there were 12 female officers, did you say, and two visible minorities? Where those the figures?
Mr Keogh: That's right, out of 48.
Mr Crozier: You were concerned about that. Was your concern that it was too many or too few?
Mr Keogh: I would sooner have a balance. As an example, when I started hiring at Banting, there were 28 positions of responsibility and there were seven females. When I left Banting, there were 29 positions of responsibility and there were 13 females.
Mr Crozier: So what do you consider a balance? Our population is what? Females outnumber us a bit. Do you feel the balance would be more than 50% female?
Mr Keogh: I never would work on statistics, but certainly a better representation. Now that New Tecumseth is becoming more multicultural, with the introduction of Honda plants, then I would like to see that area represented as well.
Mr Crozier: Thank you, sir. I think under these circumstances, if you're concurred in, I wish you well in obtaining your objectives.
The Vice-Chair: Is that all the questioning from the Liberal caucus? Okay. Then we'll move on to the New Democrats.
Mr Kormos: Thank you, Mr Keogh. You attended a meeting of the police services board?
Mr Keogh: Yes.
Mr Kormos: That was to prepare yourself, to bring yourself up to speed for the appointment?
Mr Keogh: It's a public meeting.
Mr Kormos: Yes, I understand.
Mr Keogh: I was the only person from the public, and one news reporter.
Mr Kormos: You obviously knew that this meeting was taking place here at Queen's Park today.
Mr Keogh: Oh, yes.
Mr Kormos: And you made inquiries, as you say, of an OPP sergeant?
Mr Keogh: I know Sergeant Allan very well. I worked with him on a Honda community funding committee for years, so I know him very well.
Mr Kormos: You spoke to him about policing, and obviously you have in the past.
Mr Keogh: Yes.
Mr Kormos: And knowing that you were coming here, you've made an effort to bring yourself, as I say, up to speed on what's going on in the community.
Mr Keogh: I was very aware of policing in the community, but such things as the number of occurrences and incidents of different types, I wanted to know that and what was the situation in employment equity and how might that be addressed with the contract situation. Those are the kinds of questions. Do they have the new firearms and are they using the hollow-point bullets? Those are things that I wanted to investigate.
Mr Kormos: Again, you obviously have an interest in serving on the police services board.
Mr Keogh: Certainly.
Mr Kormos: It's not just a matter of filling time or picking up the occasional per diem.
Mr Keogh: No. I don't even know what that is, but apparently it's pretty minor.
Mr Kormos: You should stick around here for a while. We've got whoppers floating around here in terms of per diems. What I'm trying to establish is that, knowing that you were coming to this committee, you took the interest and you took the time to do some inquiries even though you hadn't been fully appointed to the police services board yet.
Mr Keogh: That's right.
Mr Kormos: You did that because, among other things, you knew you were going to be coming here and you were going to be asked questions about your views on certain things.
Mr Keogh: I did it before the meeting today rather than before I attended my first meeting, yes. Had I not done it in the last week or so -- and I've been boning up on this for quite a while, because the rumour has been out there in the community, so I've had the odd chat with the secretary and with Sergeant Allan. I did my homework before today rather than before the February meeting if in fact I'm successful today.
Mr Kormos: I've got to tell you now I admire that; I think the rest of the members of this committee do. You certainly distinguish yourself from some of the other people who appeared here today who had little interest and no desire to brief themselves before they came here.
You talk about the volume of paper by police. Expand on that a little bit, please.
Mr Keogh: Well, I see in this package, which comes out every month, for instance, the number of hours. When we have 26.66 officers' time, it's not the same 26.66 officers; it could be any of the 48 assigned to a municipality on any particular day. So in order to come up with the hours -- and if there is a break-in, then they might get extra officers coming, so those hours and minutes have to be calculated and tabulated. There's a lot of paperwork. When I drive through Alliston, I see the police car sitting out and the police officer is doing his reporting in the car rather than in the office across the street. But still, I would sooner see him walking on the street.
Mr Kormos: Do you understand what he's doing, though, when he's doing the paperwork?
Mr Keogh: He could be filling out a use-of-force form, he could be filling out the times that he had to draw his firearm, and those are very minimal in Simcoe county. There might be one occurrence a month of use of force. I think there was one occurrence of high speeding.
Mr Kormos: Quite right, but surely you consider it important to record that data, don't you?
Mr Keogh: Oh, definitely.
Mr Kormos: Because when the police officer is in court, he's going to have to rely upon his written records to give testimony.
Mr Keogh: That's been made very clear to me a number of times police officers have come into the school and questioned the students.
Mr Kormos: Quite right, but it's in this area I'm having difficulty. I appreciate that there's voluminous paperwork involved in police work. What's your response to that? You seem to have observed that -- fair enough; you and I are ad idem -- and you agree that it's important. So what is your spin on it, what is your slant on it?
Mr Keogh: The direction I'd like to head on that, if it hasn't already been discussed with the police services board members, is to discuss it -- and Sergeant Allan attends those meetings except if they go in camera, which they very seldom do -- to determine if there are ways, with the use of additional computers, to bring this time together more. Are there officers hiding behind writing reports rather than getting out there?
Mr Kormos: Wouldn't it be so nice for a police officer to have a little dictation machine so he can dictate it and a clerk typist can type it after the fact?
Mr Keogh: I don't know whether they have those or not.
Mr Kormos: This is the last government that's ever going to fund that sort of resource for either the OPP or regional police forces. Wouldn't that be part of the solution?
Mr Keogh: It could be, certainly. I used that as a principal. When I was driving home from a meeting, I'd dictate what I wanted my secretary to type the next day.
Mr Kormos: But you know the police officers have to sit there and write this stuff out in longhand or punch out two-finger typewriting for what seems like deathly hours to them, let me tell you.
Mr Keogh: The officer sitting right out there was doing that. He had his little book, writing away.
Mr Kormos: What would your future goals be in terms of policing in the community? Again, you talked very candidly about the makeup of the police force and how you want it to reflect your community. What would your goals be in terms of the type of police presence in the community, what police should be doing?
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Mr Keogh: I really am in support of these extended offices, where there's an office in Tottenham and an office in Alliston and the main office in Beeton. I would certainly support them on getting out on their bicycles and on the street. Besides that, though, I know from school that I could not have handled the environment at the school without the help of these groups that I established. I think there's ample room to establish further groups that will be very effective, and Road Watch is only one of them.
Mr Kormos: You heard the last person here before you talk about the use of civilian staff as compared to police officers -- civilian or special officers. You know that police officers are terribly concerned, at the OPP and regional and local police levels, about their replacement by civilian staff, don't you?
Mr Keogh: Yes, but when I was talking at the meeting the other night, there was some discussion about auxiliary police.
Mr Kormos: And you say there's no auxiliary police program in the Alliston-New Tecumseth area?
Mr Keogh: There was in the past, but they're just looking at resurrecting it again.
Mr Kormos: You'd be supportive of that?
Mr Keogh: Once I knew more about the parameters of their responsibilities, yes.
Mr Kormos: Do you believe in such a thing as minimum staffing, and that is to say that a community of a certain size needs a minimum number of professional police officers if it's going to be adequately protected?
Mr Keogh: Very much so. I would never suggest reducing the number of police officers.
Mr Kormos: But you also know that this government has got police officers under attack, along with most other workers in this province, and is going to be forcing regions and communities to reduce the amount of policing. How do you reconcile your task then with what clearly is the agenda of the government?
Mr Keogh: I think just merely cutting the budget doesn't necessarily mean cutting the number of police officers, even though I'm sure, the same as in teaching, salary is the biggest part of the budget. There's got to be other ways that we can cut costs and not reduce. There's no intention in our municipality of reducing the number of police officers.
Mr Kormos: Thank you kindly, sir. I appreciate your time here.
The Vice-Chair: Any further questions from the New Democratic caucus? That's it then for Mr Keogh. Thank you very much for coming today. Your being here has been helpful.
Mr Keogh: Thank you very much. I really enjoyed this experience.
Mr Kormos: Enjoy the police services board. And don't let these bastards here at Queen's Park reduce the number of cops in the municipalities.
Mr Keogh: We'll look after that.
The Vice-Chair: We have a couple of things. We'll start with the concurrence process and, as we've been doing to date, we'll go through each one individually. The first on the table is Mr Hans Keller. Would somebody move concurrence?
Mr Bob Wood: I move concurrence in the intended appointment of Hans Keller to the Timmins police services board.
The Vice-Chair: Any discussion on that?
Mr Kormos: Please, Chair. A nice person, no two ways about it, long-time businessman and apparently successful. He talked about he how was out of province for a while, came back home to Timmins and took over his ailing father's business. But I think it's incredibly important that police services boards have people on them who are a cross-section of the community and who are intimately involved in various facets of the community.
This gentleman was very candid, and I appreciate that he indicates that he was very preoccupied with his business activity, but wasn't able to identify a single activity in the community other than running his business. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not suggesting that he was delinquent in any way, shape or form, but to be on the police services board and to be able to bring those very human skills to it, I think surely this government would have expected somebody who would have had more experience in the community, who would have been in touch somehow with any one of a number of elements of the community that are impacted in one way or another by the function of a police force.
The second concern about this gentleman -- and I contrast him very much with Mr Keogh, who was here most recently, and indeed even with Mr Baskerville before him -- is that the gentleman had done no preparatory work whatsoever. He seemed to have absolutely no interest in pursuing by virtue of inquiring of anybody, interviewing anybody, visiting with anybody, meeting with anybody. I give a person credit who will go to a police services board meeting before they're on the police services board so they have a half-assed idea about what's going on there before they come here. This gentleman didn't. He didn't avail himself of even the most modest level of inquiry.
I am fearful -- not that this man lacks integrity, not that he is anything other than the hardest working, most honest person. But surely the Tories can do better than that. Surely, at this early stage in them forming the government they're not reduced to taking off the group W bench, to picking up off a second string when it comes to appointments. These are very important positions, increasingly so for the next three and a half or four years, with the incredible pressures that are being applied on police forces as a result of this government's cutbacks, clawbacks and axing.
I'm indicating to you, Chair, that I will not be supporting this appointment. Surely the members of that community -- and again no disparagement of the gentleman at all, but he has done nothing to demonstrate a unique ability or an interest to serve his community and his police force by virtue of service on the police services board. A most disappointing recommendation from this government. I just can't believe that's the best they can do.
Ms Churley: I have to concur with my colleague on this one. I know I'm not going to agree with all of the polices from Tory government appointees, and I don't expect that. I want the opportunity, and this committee gives me the opportunity, to raise questions of concern to me, which I did, and not surprisingly I wasn't totally satisfied with all the answers and the lack of expertise in areas such as violence against women. I wasn't necessarily surprised by that, but I agree with my colleague Mr Kormos that this particular candidate, in my view, was pure patronage. I don't think I'm even going to be so kind, which surprises me, as my colleague in this particular appointee, Mr Keller. I thought it was appalling, his lack of knowledge about his community, about what police services boards do; not even apparently having read background information knowing that he was coming before this committee.
Notwithstanding that I was not satisfied with some of his positions, or non-positions, on some of the questions I asked, what appeared to be his almost complete lack of interest in what it is he's been asked to do astounds me. So I will not be supporting this recommendation and I agree with my colleague that I think the Tories can do a whole lot better than that. I would ask my colleagues, some of whom weren't here to hear his responses -- but believe me, we are not exaggerating. You will read the Hansard later. This was a problem that you might think about not supporting this particular recommendation today.
Mr Leadston: Obviously, I don't share the views that were expressed by both members. I think the gentleman obviously answered the tough questions in a very clear, concise manner, in a businessperson's approach. My sense is that he does have a very strong commitment to his family, and that's obviously indicated in some of the material. To what degree, with this ailing father, I'm not sure, but he was answering quite openly and honestly, and certainly his responses were not coloured by rumours, by talking to -- I think someone asked, "Have you talked to the policeman on the street?" or something. I don't think his responses were coloured at all in any fashion in the process. I think he would devote a great deal of energy and commitment to the position, as he has done to his business, which is quite successful. I'm sure he would make a strong contribution to the police services board.
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Mr Sergio: Just briefly, I don't totally disagree with my colleagues at my left, if I may say.
Mr Kormos: Damn right.
Ms Churley: You certainly may. Please do.
Mr Sergio: Of course, he didn't shine like the other candidates. Perhaps they were better candidates, better chosen-candidates, better-qualified candidates. Perhaps they indeed take the time to avail themselves of information with respect to the position and so forth. I'm not so sure that it's totally his fault. If it is a question of a commitment, let's say, from the government side, perhaps he took it as a fait accompli so he didn't have to go and delve a little bit deeper into preparing himself for the meeting here.
So I don't want to be speaking totally negatively on behalf of Mr Keller. This is the point that I agree with Mr Kormos: he didn't show that keen interest of serving his community as much as he did show it for his business skills or his own business venture.
Again, because of his unpreparedness, he didn't shine as some of the other candidates. Perhaps he would do a good job as a member of the commission up there, but I wonder if there are other people we should seek out from that particular community, perhaps better qualified. I was a little bit disappointed on the question with respect to how much time he would dedicate to this particular position.
If ultimately we have to go with Mr Keller, so be it, but I wouldn't mind to see another person coming down from that area. So at this stage I'm not prepared to support him either. If it carries, I have no particular problem with it. I think he may offer his contribution in a very positive manner, but at the moment I'm not prepared to say that I'm totally satisfied, as I have been with most of the other candidates this afternoon.
Mr Bob Wood: I may add simply this: I was quite favourably impressed by his extensive and excellent business background, which I think is exactly what's needed, given the sort of financial issues that all these police services boards are going to be facing. I think that was a very strong recommendation of him for this position. He's obviously a busy person and that's understandable. He's prepared to commit himself to this position and I think he'll do a lot of good on the board.
The Vice-Chair: Okay, any further --
Mr Kormos: Recorded vote, please.
The Vice-Chair: A recorded vote.
Ayes
Ford, Hastings, Leadston, Newman, Parker, Ross, Wood (London South).
Nays
Churley, Crozier, Kormos, Sergio.
The Vice-Chair: I declare the motion carried.
Mr Kormos: Mr Chair, I move concurrence with the recommendation of the appointment of Mr Lalonde.
The Vice-Chair: Concurrence has been moved: Mr Lalonde to the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education. Any comment? Mr Sergio.
Mr Sergio: That's fine. I have no comment.
Mr Kormos: Mr Chair, in my view this is an excellent appointment. I congratulate the Ontario Teachers' Federation for making him their nominee to OISE. He's bilingual. He has an extensive background. He has a progressive outlook. I have no hesitation in supporting this recommendation. It's unfortunate that the Tory hacks who were being put forward weren't of the same calibre as Mr Lalonde.
The Vice-Chair: Any further comment? If not, all those in favour, please raise their hands. All those opposed? Unanimous. Carried.
Mr Crozier: Mr Chair, I would move concurrence with the appointment of Ronald Sutherland to the town of Amherstburg Police Services Board.
The Vice-Chair: Any comment?
Mr Kormos: This committee has an incredibly important function, notwithstanding that the persistent exercise of the power of the majority by the Tory members overrides that function as often as not.
Let's reflect, please, for the briefest of moments, on what Mr Sutherland had to tell this committee. Of course, not being a member of the Conservative Party, I, along with Ms Churley, seized on his reference to pursuing policing from the Progressive Conservative Party perspective of crime and punishment. Well, to my great surprise, when I asked this gentleman to identify the Progressive Conservative approach to crime and punishment, he talked about equity --
Ms Churley: Employment equity.
Mr Kormos: -- employment equity, he talked about prioritizing victims of spousal abuse, victims of domestic violence. And then, as I paid close attention through the balance of questioning, he was, in a very slovenly way, trying to construct his responses depending upon who was asking the questions, trying to curry favour with one or the other.
Now, mind you, in this group here, it's hard to realize you can't have your cake and eat it too. Here we're dealing with a government that has beat up on beaten women and certainly hasn't prioritized them in any way, shape or form. Here's a government that's beaten up on women, minorities and the disabled when it comes to employment equity, repealed both the Employment Equity Act and the employment equity provisions of the Police Services Act. So I found that peculiar.
Mr Sutherland comes across as a little bit of either a person who's very much out of touch with what's going on in the province, he either grossly misunderstands what is a very clear agenda of the Tories when it comes to things like women and spousal abuse and equity issues, or he's trying to be all things to all people. He's either a flim-flam artist or he's stupid. In either case, with all due respect to Mr Crozier, who moved his acceptance, I find once again his responses were oftentimes peculiar, oftentimes outright inappropriate.
As well, you'll recall that he was questioned about homework that he had done prior to coming here, in preparation for and in anticipation of this committee hearing.
Again, I tell my colleagues from the Tory party, we'll be reading about this police services board, if this appointment is approved, I predict within, in this case, two years' time. Within two years' time, we'll be reading about Amherstburg and its police services board.
This, again, is not an acceptable appointment. If this is what these people think quality is, then my fears about the next three and a half years in this province are compounded exponentially. I'm not going to be supporting that appointment.
Mr Crozier: I knew in moving concurrence with Mr Sutherland that no doubt Mr Kormos would have something to say about me having done that. I was anticipating what his comments might be and in this case, I much prefer to side with the government than with Mr Kormos.
Mr Bob Wood: Perhaps I might make a brief comment on this. I think he has a good community record, he understands the business issues, and I think he's demonstrated sufficient qualifications for appointment to this board.
Ms Churley: May I say at this point, I'm not supporting the recommendation, for the same reason as my colleague. I wasn't going to speak, but I just want to back up what Mr Kormos said, that there seemed to be absolute confusion around the questions about what the priorities of this government are in terms of policing. He gave different answers to different people on that, and that alarmed me.
After we're finished concurrence, I have some questions, and I'm not quite sure how to do it, but I'll do it later. I have some questions.
I think the committee needs a report on the kind of balance that the boards, the commissions, are made up of by these new appointments. I keep hearing about the importance of the business perspective on boards. I agree that there's an importance of business perspective but, my goodness, there's also a real importance to have that balance there, and I'm really concerned that the members of this government are looking too much to making sure that the business perspective is there and is ignoring some of the other very important components in the kinds of backgrounds that people need to have.
I am not supporting this person because I don't believe he has a very clear understanding of the kinds of issues that people need to be aware of and care about to make sure there's a balanced perspective on the board.
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The Vice-Chair: Any further comment? If not --
Mr Kormos: Recorded vote.
The Vice-Chair: Recorded vote.
Ayes
Crozier, Ford, Hastings, Leadston, Newman, Parker, Ross, Sergio, Wood (London South).
Nays
Churley, Kormos.
The Vice-Chair: I declare the motion carried.
Next up is Mr Iscoe.
Ms Churley: I'd like to move concurrence for the appointment of Dr Iscoe.
The Vice-Chair: Okay, any comment on the concurrence on Dr Iscoe? If no comment, all those in favour of the appointment of Dr Iscoe? All those opposed? I declare the motion carried.
We'll now go on to Mr Twinn, to the Pesticides Advisory Committee. Will somebody move concurrence of Mr Twinn?
Mr Leadston: So moved.
The Vice-Chair: Any comment on that appointment? If not, all those in favour of the appointment of Mr Twinn raise their hands. All those opposed? Carried.
The next appointment is Mr Baskerville, to the Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton Police Services Board. Will somebody move concurrence?
Mr Bob Wood: I move.
The Vice-Chair: Comment?
Mr Sergio: Do you want to take the first crack, Peter? Yes, I think he wants to go first.
Mr Kormos: The first cut is the deepest. Mr Baskerville, other than one concern that I have, and while his militaristic model of policing may not be what I understand police officers' goals to be when it comes to designing and operating a police force, again, he's a man of integrity, a man of a great deal of experience, no two ways about it.
I have some concern where he talks about the fact that there should be the substitution of police officers by civilians so that police officers can be doing hardcore police work. Again, that betrays somebody, or reveals somebody who hasn't spent a whole lot of time talking to cops. The fact is, and I say one of the other people had a far clearer understanding of the fact that there's technology that can be used by police to facilitate report writing and so on, but the police officer is always a police officer. Whether that police officer is delivering summonses or subpoenas, whether that police officer is in schools doing prophylactic work within the community, doing preventive policing, whether that police officer is in attendance at a courthouse, the fact is the police officer is always on duty, and there is a great deal of fear among policing ranks, especially with this government, this government that promised -- there's a difference between a broken promise and a lie, Chair, so maybe it wasn't a promise after all, but this government that stated that it was a law-and-order government and that it would not put either firefighters or cops under attack. There's a lot of concern among police officers and concerned citizens throughout this province that there is going to be an understaffing of police forces, there's going to be a substitution of police officers with civilians, and I tell you that, I think, is a very dangerous perspective, and Mr Baskerville seems eager to support that move. I disagree with Mr Baskerville in that regard; so do a whole lot of police officers in this province. But otherwise the man shows, demonstrates, some qualities.
I've got a more profound concern, though, and that is that I am not going to be a party, nor should this committee be a party, to an illegal act. The provincial government illegally terminated four members of the Ottawa-Carleton polices services board. All four of those people were appointees who had had prior police services board experience before their most recent appointment to the Ottawa-Carleton police services board.
They are being replaced by, subject to this committee, and I know this committee is going to be considering one Peter Vice, who was a Tory campaign manager; one Anne Boudreau, who is the daughter-in-law of the deputy mayor of Gloucester and also a well-known Tory; one Al Bouwers, who is a former mayor of Osgoode and a Tory member; and of course by Mr Baskerville. Mr Baskerville may well be a Tory. That's fine. He's a career civil servant and would appear not to have been actively, publicly -- he certainly isn't a defeated mayor or the daughter-in-law of a deputy mayor or a Tory campaign manager.
This government has illegally fired, terminated, four extremely competent, extremely qualified members of the Ottawa-Carleton police services board. I encourage those four people to litigate and to sue the butts off of anybody who happens to be in their scopes.
Mr Leadston: On a point of order, Mr Chair: Is the purpose of this committee to recommend the applicants to the various positions, as we've done today? Is that our purpose? Aside from the interviewing process, our goal is to recommend --
The Vice-Chair: It is to interview and then to move either concurrence or non-concurrence with their appointment, and this is quite in order.
Mr Leadston: So our role, in terms of how a board or commission deals with the applicants in terms of dismissal -- it's not the function of this committee to make any determination with that regard. Our function is to interview and to merely recommend the applicant, and that's where our responsibility ends.
The Vice-Chair: That's right, and what is happening here is within the scope of that.
Mr Leadston: Well, I don't believe that's within the scope of our mandate, what's being proposed and what's being discussed, and I ask the Chair for some clarification.
The Vice-Chair: The member is simply putting on the record his thoughts re this appointment, and that's within the purview of this committee to do.
Mr Kormos: Thank you, Chair. Unfortunately, I lost my train; I'm going to have to back up a couple of sentences. That always happens when people interrupt me.
In any event, we've got illegal dismissal of four competent and creditable and hard-serving police services board members who reflect a broad range of interests in the community to accommodate three clear Tory hacks and Mr Baskerville, who I'm not accusing of being a Tory hack and who I recognize is competent. As I say, I encourage those people to litigate. They have, as I understand it, a term that extends well through this year and perhaps even into next year.
I am not going to be a party, and I don't believe this committee should -- and I caution committee members to conduct themselves with some concern -- to an illegal and immoral attack on the four former police services board members of Carleton who were illegally dismissed, terminated to make way for a whack of Tory patronage appointments.
In view of that, I believe I am compelled, and I shall act accordingly, to oppose this appointment. Once Ms Dewar or Ms Hunter or Ms Leroux or Ms Hayes -- it's interesting. Four women are going to be replaced by three men and one woman. That's a very interesting proposition. This government's attack on women didn't stop with single mothers raising their children in poverty, it didn't stop with a tax on abused women who sought out the shelter of second-stage housing, but knows no bounds. This government is clearly an anti-woman one, is clearly a patronage one, and it clearly has no hesitation in engaging in illegalities to pursue its goals. I certainly can't support this. It would be entirely inappropriate. If these guys want to put their butts on the line in terms of being subpoenaed as witnesses or being defendants in civil litigation, let them; not me, by any stretch of the imagination.
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Mr Sergio: I want to make some comments strictly on the applicant and the merits. I'm not convinced that this is the right person for this particular appointment, Mr Chair. He comes with a lot of experience but, no offence to our staff here, he brings with himself a tremendous bureaucratic, federal experience, and you cannot apply that in a local, community-based police community.
There was nothing that I have acknowledged in his presentation where he has softened his views. Again, no offence to our staff here; I just can't see how we can totally neglect the interest of a community when it comes especially to police affairs that we are debating totally from the principle which is community-based policing.
He has offered nothing at all whatsoever with respect to community issues, how he would work with that. He has strictly restricted his comments to, with an iron fist, if you will, how he would run the police commission. I really don't think he has left any flexibility as a policeman, if you will, as a superior of the police staff up there, that he would be flexible enough to show the community that governing or running a local community, from a police point of view, that would be the case, and I think that's where flexibility must be shown.
If we can't ensure that, then we cannot say that we have, especially in those smaller communities, a police-based community. We just can't have it. If we have at the helm of a police commission people such as Mr Baskerville -- and he brings a lot of wonderful experience, no question about that, but this is a totally new game for him. He comes from a different school, where he was trained and he worked for many, many years in a very different field, and this is totally new. Maybe he would change with time once he was in that position, but I just can't see putting a man like that with such a view. He has shown that he's got blinkers on when it comes to community, community-based police activities, and I just didn't see him as the right person to be appointed on the commission at that particular place.
I have a lot of doubts. It's not that I have some doubts; I have a lot of doubts appointing Mr Baskerville to the Ottawa-Carleton police services board, and I can't support it. Mr Chair, I would move that the appointment be not now made, if it's in order. If it isn't, then I just give notice that I won't be supporting that appointment.
The Vice-Chair: There is a motion on the floor and you can certainly vote against that motion.
Mr Sergio: That's fine. Thank you.
Ms Churley: I don't support this appointment, or this recommendation. I'm not even going to go into the details of some of the concerns I had with his responses to some questions.
My concern, particularly about the Ottawa-Carleton police services board, is bigger than that, and at the very least I would recommend today to even the Conservative members of the committee to support deferring a decision on the Ottawa-Carleton appointee. I believe that given particularly what happened with Hydro and the fact that a similar kind of event happened where the minister signed the papers to fire five board members, saying that they did a great job but they're trying to save money so therefore they were going to be let go -- the minister said very nice things about it. It turned out that the government was breaking the law in firing these people, and the courts confirmed that.
I believe that in this case there's a very good chance the same thing could happen again. It makes sense to me for the government members to recommend that the minister responsible go back and take a look at the law again in the Police Services Act and perhaps save taxpayers the money if in fact they have broken the law, as they did with the Hydro board, and not put these people who are here today through any more if it turns out that they can't be appointed because the four women who are being kicked off -- the government is commanded by the court to reinstate these people. There's a chance that may happen. Then there are these particular people, including Mr Baskerville, who was here today, who have really put themselves out, who have expectations, and it won't happen. It will also cost the taxpayers money. So that's my recommendation.
I also want to say that I have some real concerns about the composition of this board, and we don't have it in front of us today, but I do see we have four women, and only one of those, it's my understanding, was a card-carrying New Democrat. But we have four women with extensive expertise, having sat on other police services boards and having worked in areas of violence against women and in a whole bunch of community areas, who have been thrown off the board. We haven't been given any reasons why. I'm really concerned that the balance of the board, which our government in fact did maintain -- there was some business representation, there was community-background representation, policing kind of law-and-order representation, but you need that balance of expertise.
What I'm suggesting here is that no decision be made on this one today, that this committee -- and I don't know if it's in our purview or not -- go back to the minister and the government and say that given the complexities and the disarray over perhaps another illegal action by this government in throwing these very competent people off, this is not the time to be appointing anybody until that situation is resolved.
My motion is to defer any decision on this until the government has resolved this pending lawsuit.
Mr Kormos: It's just going to cost the taxpayers more and more money.
The Vice-Chair: There's a motion to defer, and a motion to defer is non-debatable. So we'll take a vote on the motion to defer.
Mr Kormos: A recorded vote.
The Vice-Chair: All those in favour of deferring? A recorded vote.
Ayes
Churley, Crozier, Kormos, Sergio.
Nays
Ford, Hastings, Leadston, Newman, Parker, Ross, Wood (London South).
The Vice-Chair: That motion being lost, any further --
Mr Bob Wood: I'd actually like to make a brief comment. I think in fact this man is an outstandingly good appointment. He has a very great background in everything that's needed on a police commission. He has the experience in dealing with people. He has the experience in how a large organization operates. He has the experience in developing budgets. I think he's an excellent appointment.
Mr Kormos: The question? Recorded.
The Vice-Chair: All those in favour of concurrence with this appointment? A recorded vote.
Ayes
Ford, Hastings, Leadston, Newman, Parker, Ross, Wood (London South).
Nays
Churley, Crozier, Kormos, Sergio.
The Vice-Chair: The motion is carried.
Ms Churley: On a point of order, Mr Chair: May I ask a question? I have some requests to make on reports on police services boards. I guess I do that at the end of the concurrence, do I?
The Vice-Chair: We could entertain those questions at that time, yes.
The next appointment is Mr Keogh to the Town of New Tecumseth Police Services Board. Could I have a motion for concurrence?
Mr Bob Wood: I move concurrence.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Wood moves concurrence.
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Mr Kormos: I'm going to support this. This gentleman came here and displayed, in contrast to some of the other appointees presented by the government, an enthusiasm about his police services board, an ability and an interest sufficient to make inquiries, to attend a board meeting, to talk with police officers, OPP officers in this instance, about the board and about police work.
He is committed to equity. He is committed to maintaining levels of policing such that the community is secure, notwithstanding that this government, the Mike Harris Tory government, wants to take police officers out of our communities and expose households and individuals to greater and greater danger from crime.
He could well have voted Tory in June of last year. As a teacher he might have been ticked off enough with the previous government over the social contract, but if he thought he was mad then, he's clearly mad 10 times over now in terms of what this government has done to our educational system and to professionals employed there. I'm pleased to support him. I think he's a refreshing and bright and insightful and progressive candidate.
The Acting Chair (Mr Bruce Crozier): Any further discussion?
All those in favour? Opposed? There being none, carried.
That deals with those items that are on the agenda, I believe. Ms Churley, you had comments.
Ms Churley: I have.
Mr Bob Wood: Just so we're aware of this, I think at some point we're going to deal with the adoption of the subcommittee report. I'm sorry to interrupt you.
The Acting Chair: We'll take care of that, sir.
Ms Churley: I'll just be very quick. I've expressed my concerns before. I have broad concerns about the makeup of police services boards under this government, province-wide. I'm concerned that the necessary balance between community experience, policing experience, law and order, business experience, is being eroded. I'm concerned about gender equity and the representation of minorities, particularly in urban areas.
What I would like to ask, therefore, is if the committee can request -- and this is where I need a little help -- if it's the minister or whoever, to provide to the committee a profile of the police services boards to date across the province so that we can take a look at it and determine, as a committee, whether that kind of balance that's needed, particularly in this day and age -- with so many new and specific problems in our communities, we need to look and I think it would help all of us to get an overview and see if that balance is maintained, to see where there are problems, and then the committee can certainly make recommendations back to the appointments secretariat and the appropriate minister if the balance appears to be tipped too much one way or the other.
The Acting Chair: It's my understanding that you can put that question on the record and to the minister. But just to make sure that's the case, I'll ask the clerk. Is that correct? Yes, that question will be directed to the minister for a reply.
Mr Kormos: I know we're close to wrapping up and considering the subcommittee's report, but I do want to make reference -- I've got my member's committee expense report here. I understand the per diem rate is $76, tax-free, plus a $23 tax-free meal allowance.
The Acting Chair: It's $27.
Mr Kormos: My God, it's been a long time since I took one -- $27. That comes out to over $100. I've made note over the last several weeks during the Bill 26 hearings that a one-day tax-free per diem for a member of this committee or other committees is more than what David Tsubouchi has told an unemployed poor person to live on in terms of food for a whole month. I find it incredible that a government that imposes that sort of demand on our poorest and weakest would then fill out its members' expenses. Under normal conditions I wouldn't fill mine, but I want to tell you why I'm filling mine out today, Chair, and I want to put this on the record. It's important.
I have a constituent in Welland-Thorold. Her name is Stella May Williams. She is 48 years old, mother of a daughter and grandmother of two. Stella May Williams had, for most of her adult life, suffered from mental illness, suffered periods of hospitalization and lengthy and constantly changing protocols of treatment. In the recent past she began to feel a little stronger and a little more capable and had actually started working. She was working 10 to 15 hours a week at a laundromat, earning minimum wage, on her feet, with the heat and the noise of the machines but doing the very best she could. Three weeks before Christmas she received a letter from Community and Social Services advising her that she somehow didn't fit the disability eligibility requirements of this new government, of the Mike Harris government.
Three days after receiving that letter she killed herself, leaving behind a few modest possessions, leaving behind a daughter, friends who loved her, family who cared about her and two grandchildren. She also left behind a poignant suicide note indicating very clearly to anybody who read it, and read it carefully, that she felt there wasn't room for her in Mike Harris's Ontario and that she was too weak, too crushed to fight back. She just couldn't bear the thought of being evicted in January, of not being able to buy the most modest of gifts for her grandchildren from the family benefits allowance received.
She got a welfare funeral. Her family, her daughter and grandchildren, were allowed to spend two hours with her because that's what a welfare funeral consists of. There's no money in this struggling family, yet there's a strong desire by her daughter and grandchildren to erect a modest monument to her. So I'm going to fill out this member's committee expense report, Chair, and I'm going to collect the money and I'm going to place it into a trust account on behalf of Stella May Williams and on behalf of gathering enough money to erect a modest monument, which I am told will cost anywhere from $1,000 to $1,500.
As I say, under other circumstances I wouldn't be filling out my member's committee expense report, but I do want to say this: This government, as far as Ms Williams's daughter and family and friends are concerned, took Ms Williams's life as much as they took that modest amount of support that a disabled person should be entitled to. Ms Williams was not the author of any of her own misfortune. She had no control over the fact that she was afflicted with a serious mental illness, but she did display courage and tenacity until even that was robbed from her by a government that says there's no place for Stella May Williams and her like here in the province of Ontario.
So I want to go on record to clearly demonstrate why I'm taking this member's committee expense report. I'd be pleased if all the other members took their expenses today and I'd be pleased to accept them and acknowledge them in that same trust account to erect a small monument in the public graveyard in Welland to a brave lady who was attacked by vicious government policies.
The Acting Chair: Thank you. The next order of business, then, will be -- I'm sorry.
Mr Sergio: Mr Chair, I had a question. I'm sorry, I'm new to the process here.
First of all, can I ask why staff can't answer to the entire committee when we have a question instead of just whispering in the ear of the Chair?
The Acting Chair: Do you have a problem with that?
Mr Sergio: Yes, I do, perhaps because I'm used to hearing the answer freely and openly.
The Acting Chair: For example, what question was it?
Mr Sergio: The previous question from Ms Churley here.
The Acting Chair: I was the one who asked the clerk. It wasn't a question of the committee.
Mr Sergio: Is this normal or --
The Acting Chair: Yes.
Mr Sergio: Just a question of process.
The Acting Chair: Yes, but the clerk might have something to say.
Mr Sergio: Okay, that's fine. But this wasn't my question, Mr Chair.
My question is, and this would help me and perhaps would assist other members of the committee, why can't we have the information on the other candidates? I know there is one person who is being recommended by the government, if you will, or recommended by the other two parties, but why can't we have the data, personal information on the other candidates available to us? Any particular reason?
The Acting Chair: I can give you an answer to that, but does anyone else want to offer an opinion?
Mr Sergio: The reason why?
Mr Bob Wood: You're on.
Mr Sergio: Okay, if we had thousands of applications I could see.
The Acting Chair: If I could be bold enough to suggest, it is the appointments in council that we are delegated to deal with, and the appointments in council is the list of names and the information that's put before us. Any applications, any background, anything that happened prior to that as far as the selection is concerned I don't think is within the jurisdiction of this committee.
Mr Sergio: I get the wind: bureaucracies. Okay.
The Acting Chair: And I'm on your side.
Mr Sergio: Thank you.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT
The Acting Chair: That being it, we'll then deal with the report of the subcommittee, Wednesday, January 24, 1996.
Mr Bob Wood: I'd like to move the adoption of that report, Mr Chair, and move that the reading of it be dispensed with.
Mr Kormos: This is the subcommittee of what date, sir?
The Acting Chair: Today.
Mr Kormos: I don't think people have received a copy of that.
The Acting Chair: You were handed copies of the minutes, yes.
Mr Kormos: Everybody received one? Okay. I am aware of what it says.
The Acting Chair: Any other question? All those in favour? Opposed? Carried.
That being the business for the day, we stand adjourned.
The committee adjourned at 1631.