ONTARIO EDUCATIONAL COMMUNICATIONS AUTHORITY / OFFICE DE LA TÉLÉCOMMUNICATION ÉDUCATIVE DE L'ONTARIO
CONTENTS
Wednesday 18 December 1991
Appointments review
Verna Hannaford
Frances Adams
Ontario Educational Communications Authority /Office de la télécommunication éducative de l'Ontario
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair: Runciman, Robert W. (Leeds-Grenville PC)
Vice-Chair: McLean, Allan K. (Simcoe East PC)
Carter, Jenny (Peterborough NDP)
Elston, Murray J. (Bruce L)
Frankford, Robert (Scarborough East NDP)
Grandmaître, Bernard (Ottawa East L)
Hayes, Pat (Essex-Kent NDP)
McGuinty, Dalton (Ottawa South L)
Marchese, Rosario (Fort York NDP)
Stockwell, Chris (Etobicoke West PC)
Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay NDP)
Wiseman, Jim (Durham West NDP)
Clerk: Arnott, Douglas
Staff: Pond, David, Research Officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1013 in room 228.
APPOINTMENTS REVIEW
Resuming consideration of intended appointments.
VERNA L. HANNAFORD
The Vice-Chair: We will call the committee to order. We have two appointees to review this morning and, at 11, TVOntario will be back in. Could we have our first appointee, Verna Hannaford. If you would come up to the front, please.
Mrs Hannaford was selected by the official opposition, so we will start with the official opposition.
Mr Grandmaître: Mrs Hannaford, I was going through your curriculum vitae. Can you tell me a little more about your community involvement, because, as you know, one of the requirements to be appointed to a local police board or to any of our agencies reflects very much on your involvement in the community. Did you leave out something in your CV that you should tell us?
Mrs Hannaford: I sent it, but I do not see it here. I am on the Stephen Leacock Home board; I am chairman of the Treasure Island Day Care Centre for the Huronia Regional Centre; on the community advisory board at the Penetanguishene Mental Health Centre; on the Richmond Resource Centre, and I have just been appointed to the Simcoe Legal Services Clinic.
Mr Grandmaître: Thank you. You were born in the area, right? Were you born in Orillia?
Mrs Hannaford: No, I was not. My husband was.
Mr Grandmaître: I see. Are you familiar with your police force?
Mrs Hannaford: Yes.
Mr Grandmaître: How would you describe your police force?
Mrs Hannaford: Very good. There is always room for improvement, but it is a very good police force.
Mr Grandmaître: What would be your objectives or your priorities once you become a real member of the Orillia Police Services Board? What would be your main objective?
Mrs Hannaford: Until I knew what the board was all about, being a new member, I would want to find out what the board was doing, and public education.
Mr Grandmaître: You say until you find out what the board is all about; did you not apply for this appointment?
Mrs Hannaford: Yes, through the paper. There was an ad in the paper.
Mr Grandmaître: What attracted you to apply for this nomination?
Mrs Hannaford: Being on the community advisory board at the Penetanguishene Mental Health Centre, we would like to work back and forth with the different police forces for education on mental illness.
Mr Grandmaître: In other words, you are not familiar with the police budget of Orillia, how it works.
Mrs Hannaford: No, I am not.
Mr Grandmaître: As you know, municipal taxpayers are paying most of the cost of local policing. There has always been a fight -- if I can use the word "fight" -- between municipal councils and the police commission or the police service board as to how the budget should be written. Most municipal councillors claim they are not involved in the discussion at the time the budget is drawn, and the local taxpayers have to pay the cost without really any -- or very little -- participation in the budget procedures. Do you think the elected people should have more of the say because they are paying close to 85% of the cost? Do you think they should have more of a say in the budget process?
Mrs Hannaford: I am sorry, I cannot answer that question.
Mr Grandmaître: Are you familiar with employment equity?
Mrs Hannaford: Yes, I am.
Mr Grandmaître: Do you believe in it?
Mrs Hannaford: Yes, I do.
Mr Grandmaître: Would you know how many female police officers there are in Orillia?
Mrs Hannaford: I am aware of it. At least two or three.
Mr Grandmaître: Do you think this is representative of your population?
Mrs Hannaford: No, I think we need more women.
Mr Grandmaître: Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: Hans, you have three minutes left.
Mr Daigeler: I am just wondering -- you may have answered this a little bit earlier -- have you ever been involved in or do you have some experience with an organization that has a substantial budget that you would have to look at?
Mrs Hannaford: The community advisory board for the Penetanguishene Mental Health Centre and the Leacock home board; we have to look at the budgets for those.
Mr Daigeler: Pardon?
Mrs Hannaford: The Leacock home board and the community advisory board of the Penetanguishene Mental Health Centre; we have to look at the budgets for those.
Mr Daigeler: What budget does the community advisory board look at?
Mrs Hannaford: We look at the hospital budget.
Mr Daigeler: The community advisory board looks at the budget of the whole hospital?
Mrs Hannaford: Yes.
Mr Daigeler: In what way do you look at it?
Mrs Hannaford: I have only been on the board for about two months, so I am not totally familiar with that area.
Mr Daigeler: I see. Have you had any other experience then? You mentioned some other board that you --
Mrs Hannaford: The Leacock home board. I have been on that board for approximately two years.
Mr Daigeler: What is that? Is that a residential retirement home?
Mrs Hannaford: No, it is a tourist attraction.
Mr Daigeler: I see. Does that have a budget then?
Mrs Hannaford: Yes.
Mr Daigeler: Is it something you have to approve?
Mrs Hannaford: It is set up and we look at it to see our projected budget and what our revenues are on that.
Mr Daigeler: Thank you.
Mr Waters: It says here in our background, "Statement of criteria by which an intended appointee is chosen." One of the things is, "Police service boards should reflect the composition of the local community." I guess my question would be, what aspect of the community would you be representative of?
Mrs Hannaford: I do not understand the question.
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Mr Waters: Basically, what do you bring with you to the board? You have mentioned the Penetanguishene Mental Health Centre. What else in that relationship do you bring with you that would be experience that would benefit you?
Mrs Hannaford: As well I have my tourism background -- planning and development, marketing and public relations -- that I feel would add something to the board.
Mr Waters: I am curious, and it is probably an off-topic question, but how did you get involved with Penetanguishene?
Mrs Hannaford: I answered an ad in the paper.
Mr Waters: Sounds like somebody who wants to be busy.
Another statement they make here is, "The individual should be aware of the concerns and values of their community, as well as a confirmed commitment to the guiding principles of the Police Services Act," so I would ask, what would you say is the chief concern the police services board would have to deal with, or police in Orillia would be dealing with at this point in time?
Mrs Hannaford: I think a higher profile in the community, maybe more involvement in the community.
Mr Waters: Those would be all my questions.
Mr Wiseman: I am always concerned about young people. I used to be a teacher in my previous life, and I am always concerned because there seems to be a dearth of things for young people between the ages of 12 and 18 to do. It seems to me this group would have a lot of energy. You have to understand it is probably about 1% or 2% who are getting into trouble.
What can you bring to the police services board that may be able to address or help develop programs that the police can use to --
Mrs Hannaford: The Richmond Resource Centre works with children from the age of approximately seven. We go into the elementary schools and work with the kids up until they are 24, and we have different programs. We are setting up more programs to work with the youth in the community.
Mr Wiseman: Is there really a police force already working in this area?
Mrs Hannaford: Yes, they are working with the Richmond Resource Centre now, back and forth, and they have social workers at the centre. There is not a waiting period. If any child has a problem, he can walk in off the street and talk to somebody and he can get his problems sorted out. Either they are sent on to where they might get counselling for a longer period, or possibly they will be counselled for maybe a couple of weeks. Maybe that is all they need to sort their problems out. But the Richmond Resource Centre does work back and forth with the police and the mental health centre.
Mr Wiseman: Have you worked with this Richmond Resource Centre?
Mrs Hannaford: No. I have children of my own, so I am well aware of the problems that can arise with youth. I have four children from 22 years old down to two and a half years old.
Mr Wiseman: You have a wide experience in terms of work and involvement. In 1985 you took a course on development and structural aids to enhance learning. Would you see this as something you might be able to use for the police force in terms of developing courses and things that the police may be able to use to relate better to teens?
Mrs Hannaford: Yes.
Mr Wiseman: Have you any specific ideas of where you would like that to lead?
Mrs Hannaford: Not right at the moment.
Mr Wiseman: No? Do you know any of the other people who are on the police services board?
Mrs Hannaford: No, I do not.
Mr Wiseman: Okay. I am going to put on my other hat. I like to think of myself as being environmentally aware, and I have been to the Wye Marsh.
Mrs Hannaford: What do you want to know about the Wye Marsh?
Mr Wiseman: How is it doing?
Mrs Hannaford: Well, we are getting better. They have instituted a lot of programs that we had started when I was working there. I was a co-op student there for one summer, and they asked us to set up some programs and they have carried them on. Adopt-a-bird was one of our ideas. It was a girlfriend and myself who worked there.
Mr Wiseman: Can I keep going or am I running out of time?
The Vice-Chair: Now you have got back on the subject, all right, carry on.
Mr Wiseman: Mr McLean, you will see how my mind works with this next question.
The Vice-Chair: I know how it works.
Mr Wiseman: Do you see any possibility, within the police force and within your experience in the natural environment areas, of bringing the two together to heighten the sense of awareness among young people so they have some positive directions and a positive outlook on life?
Mr Grandmaître: Jailbirds, I guess.
Mrs Hannaford: I was going to say, bicycle through the park. The officers could bicycle through the park and do the loop at night when all the teens are out in the summertime.
Mr Wiseman: So there is wildlife in the park?
Mrs Hannaford: Oh yes, lots of it.
Mr Wiseman: Just the people we were talking about. I have no more questions.
Mr Frankford: There is a concept called community policing. Are you familiar with that?
Mrs Hannaford: I have heard something about it, but I am not fully aware of what it is all about.
Mr Frankford: Do you feel that there is any need for a redirection in policing in your community, that it should be more community-based?
Mrs Hannaford: I think all police forces should be more community-based. I honestly think we should go back to the way it used to be where there were more police officers walking the beat and they were very familiar with everybody in the community.
Mr Frankford: Have you had any discussions on the practicality of that?
Mrs Hannaford: No.
The Vice-Chair: Any further questions? I want to thank you for coming before the committee this morning and I wish you every success on the board. It has been a good board and I know you will add to it.
FRANCES ADAMS
The Vice-Chair: The next person is Frances Adams, intended appointee as member of the Lakefield Police Services Board.
Ms Adams: Good morning.
The Vice-Chair: I would like to ask if Mr Waters would take the chair for this one. It was our party that asked for the interview, so I should have the opportunity to ask some questions.
The Acting Chair (Mr Waters): I would ask if you have any opening statements or any comment you wish to make before we get into questions.
Ms Adams: I am pleased to be here. I guess I am curious as to why my name was chosen to come forward for this meeting. Is there something in my past I do not know about? I am seriously interested in the position and hope to be recommended for it.
The Acting Chair (Mr Waters): Thank you. We will start with Mr McLean.
Mr McLean: I guess the reason you were chosen was that when I looked over the reviews, I noticed you had only been in the province a short period of time and I was curious. The background you have -- I have not got it right here. I know you were out west for several years.
Ms Adams: That is right.
Mr McLean: Where did you see this appointment? Was it in the paper, or did you read about it? How did you come to apply?
Ms Adams: I was asked to apply by someone in the village who has been a long-time friend and is a co-worker with Elmer Buchanan, the MPP. I was informed that they were looking to appoint more women to the board -- apparently there have been no women on the Lakefield board in the past -- and that they were looking for a woman with a social services background, which somewhat fits in terms of my personal history.
I have been in Lakefield less than two years. I realize that is a short period of time, and I certainly considered that when I was asked to apply. My work takes me into Peterborough most days, and to a lot of small towns and villages in the region, but to date I have not been able to become very involved in community activities in Lakefield and I saw this as an opportunity to be able to do that, to become more involved in the community and offer my skills to the community.
Also, I am from a small town in northern Ontario and did live for most of my life in Ontario, although I spent nine years in Edmonton.
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Mr McLean: I guess one of the main questions was with regard to your good standing in the community and having a record of community involvement. That was one of the criteria that were laid out. When I was looking through all the different ones who had applied, I was curious about the involvement you had within the community and how familiar you are with the community and the policing within the community.
Ms Adams: I am not as familiar as other appointments to the board will be. Certainly I have a long record of community involvement, but not in Lakefield. I think it can be healthy, however, to have someone somewhat new to the community come on the board who does not have perhaps in detail all the historical -- I do not know -- different pacts or whatever that can happen in a small town.
Mr McLean: How many members are on the board?
Ms Adams: There will be five, I assume.
Mr McLean: The other question I have is, did you know any other people who applied for the position?
Ms Adams: Yes, I do.
Mr McLean: Are you involved with regard to community policing?
Ms Adams: I suppose that depends on how you interpret what that means. I am involved in one piece of work in Peterborough county called the healthy communities project. A member of the Peterborough city police force is also involved in that, so I have had a chance to work with him. I see that as an example of community policing.
Mr McLean: Do you have something specific you would like to see happen with regard to the police services board, more public awareness programs or some type of direction for the police services board. You must have something on your mind you would like to take up as a challenge to become more involved.
Ms Adams: The question that was asked earlier about difficulties with youth and opportunities for youth is something I certainly thought about when I was first contemplating this position. I do not believe it is a serious problem in the village of Lakefield at this point. However, there have been incidents of swarming and so on in Peterborough and in some of the other smaller communities in the county. That concerns me and I think the police services board and the police can act as a catalyst in looking at alternatives for youth. There are a lot of recreational opportunities in our area. Increased volunteer opportunities is another alternative to look at, and I think I have something to offer there.
Mr McLean: What is the population of Lakefield?
Ms Adams: About 2,400.
Mr McLean: Do you see the small-town police force being done away with and more taken over by the OPP? Do you look at that as an alternative? I know 2,400 people paying for a police force is fairly expensive.
Ms Adams: If the town chooses to do that, then it should be the town's choice. In the last week or two, there was a series of bank robberies. I think it was three different small towns in our county. Lakefield was not one of those towns, and the chief of police said he thought a robber would be less likely to choose Lakefield because there is a police force there. I think that may be right.
Mr McLean: I agree with that. That is a very good point. I know some small villages in the county of Simcoe where there are a lot of robberies taking place. It is covered by the OPP and it is very difficult for them to be there, so I think it is an advantage. I will pass for now.
Ms Carter: I would like to welcome you particularly, Frances, because although Lakefield is not actually in my riding, I kind of feel it ought to be. If I were the federal member, it would be.
Mr Elston: You are surely not thinking of running federally?
Ms Carter: No.
Also, since I am the parliamentary assistant for the Ministry of Citizenship, your list of involvements gladdens my heart. I see you have concern with women's issues, literacy, multiculturalism, child care, disabled persons and native issues. That is just about where we are at, the interest in these things.
I am also interested in what was just said about Lakefield not having robberies as much as other places do. I do not know whether you are aware of this, but a writer called John Craig, whose wife still lives in Peterborough, wrote a novel called In Council Rooms Apart. It was all about terrible things that happened during the Second World War; some people told something that was supposed to have been a deadly secret about the Nazis letting big troop ships cross the Atlantic because they wanted to get the men across the sea to fight and so on. This story involved Lakefield, although it was not named. It was there as a place where people who were being hunted could go and be protected by the entire community because it was such an integrated community and nobody would tell on these people and they could go from house to house and so on. I just thought that was interesting.
But what I really wanted to ask you was, how do you feel all these involvements you have had and these interests you have are going to bear fruit when you are on the police services board? I know you just mentioned youth and so on, but there are a lot of other things here too that I think might affect what you would want to achieve on that board.
Ms Adams: Certainly for years I have been aware of the need for sensitivity and correct procedures when it comes to the police dealing with domestic violence, with children whose parents may be charged with sexual abuse or abuse, or with a sexual assault victim. I hope the police force in Lakefield is providing a good service in those areas right now and, if not, then I will try to see that I can improve that.
Ms Carter: What about native issues? I believe that is something that does figure in the Lakefield community.
Ms Adams: Curve Lake is not very far away from Lakefield, so I think it does and I think there are opportunities for improving liaison between the band council and people on the reserve and people in the town, definitely. I do not know if I can speak more specifically than that right now.
Ms Carter: Then, of course, there is the question of women's representation on the force, but I guess it is a small force, so that is not as easily done. Do you know how many police there are?
Ms Adams: I think it is three or four. I do not believe there is a female police officer at present, but there has been during the time I have lived in Lakefield.
Mr Wiseman: Lakefield is a tourist area and, as we know, tourism sort of brings its own special problems, with some tourists bringing their bodies and leaving their brains behind on holidays. I think this presents an interesting problem for policing in tourist areas. Have you any thoughts on that, like partying and driving their motor boats too fast and drinking?
Ms Adams: I do not think I can come up with anything. I know the village is very serious about trying to encourage more tourism, particularly in getting more people to dock in Lakefield and spend more time in the village rather than passing on to Buckhorn and so on, and I think maybe the police will have to look at what impact it will have.
Mr Wiseman: Half of my other questions were taken up, but I would like to pursue a little more the young people question, because I think that is part of the question I am asking on tourism.
Ms Adams: Are we finished yet?
Mr Wiseman: Pretty close, I think. You have a very extensive involvement in the community and United Way, and you did mention that Lakefield has managed to avoid swarming and things like that, but it does have some other problems with young people. Have you any ideas about what could be done for that group between 12 and 20, the group that just does not seem to have enough recreational facilities or enough direction in that age group?
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Ms Adams: It is a difficult age. I would never want to go through it myself again. As I said before, I think looking for more opportunities for encouraging teenagers to become more involved in volunteer opportunities is something real. The Lakefield Environmental Action Forum has major recycling events at different times during the year beyond the blue box campaign. A lot of the local high school students were involved in that. I think that is a really good example of how to encourage them to use their time constructively to work on things that are important to them.
To look to that group and similar groups addressing issues that are of concern to high school students, I also know that there tends to be, in a lot of communities, a very narrowly focused view in terms of activities for teenagers. Not everyone is interested in hockey. Alternatives to that need to be addressed, whether drama or whatever. If you have some good ideas --
Mr Grandmaître: I have just two short questions.
Mr Daigeler: I will not be long. I will be short, you be long. How is that?
I read over your background material and found it quite impressive actually. You obviously have some quite intensive background working with people. Can you tell me a little bit more about this responsibility in Alberta? I presume it was the federal department of the Secretary of State that you were working for as a social development officer. Is there a program? Is there a budget? I was not, quite frankly, aware at all that the federal government has something like that. What is it? What does it involve? You say here you provided organizational development assistance to community groups working for social change in Alberta.
Ms Adams: That is right. The Department of the Secretary of State, which has since been somewhat divided between the Secretary of State and the Minister of State (Multiculturalism and Citizenship) also handles post-secondary education, loans and so on. It is somewhat of a mishmash of responsibilities, but it has these programs, the women's program, multiculturalism, the national literacy secretariat, the disabled persons participation program, the native citizens program and so on. These programs are for those designated groups, to ensure they gain equal participation in Canadian society. My role was to assist them in determining what their goals were as communities or groups.
Mr Daigeler: Were you working with a particular group?
Ms Adams: I worked with a lot of different groups. I worked with dozens of groups that were involved with native groups, women's organizations and literacy programs throughout Alberta and the Northwest Territories.
Mr Daigeler: This is a federal program to promote equity, I guess, among designated disadvantaged groups. Is that the idea?
Ms Adams: Essentially. You were not aware of that department?
Mr Daigeler: I was not aware that there were actually people who were sort of, as it were, community activists paid for by the federal government.
Ms Adams: I was not paid to be a community activist. I was paid to assist community groups to reach their objectives. Essentially, to look at it somewhat cynically, as one does from time to time, it is one arm of government assisting organizations to make recommendations or to criticize another arm or level of government. It is one way of ensuring that the voices of particular groups in our society are heard. Those particular groups have not historically had the organizational capacity or the funds to be able to put forward their views, as have many other groups in our society.
Mr Grandmaître: First I must apologize. I did not know where Lakefield was. As a former Minister of Municipal Affairs, I should have known. Now I know.
I am always interested in municipal councils and the composition of the population of a township, municipality or regional government. I find it very strange that you are not responsible. The province of Ontario is responsible for this. The police force consists of seven employees -- five of those employees are constables or uniformed officers -- and there are five members on the police services board. Does that mean there is a supervisor for every constable?
Ms Adams: Five members on the police board?
Mr Grandmaître: Yes.
Ms Adams: I am not sure why that choice was made. I know that in the act a community of my size only needs a three-member board, but the option is there to increase to five. I am not sure whose decision that was.
Mr Grandmaître: I find it strange -- five commissioners and five constables.
Ms Adams: Not necessarily.
Mr Grandmaître: Do you like this one-on-one?
Ms Adams: I suppose you can look at it in a positive way.
Mr Elston: Can you imagine 90,000 MPPs?
Ms Adams: Our role is not solely to be employers. It is also to liaise with the community and with --
Mr Grandmaître: Yes, I realize this. I was chairman of a police commission for seven years. What is the total population of Lakefield?
Ms Adams: About 2,400.
Mr Grandmaître: Looking at your budget, you are way below the provincial average. Keep this up. Congratulations.
Ms Adams: Thank you. I cannot claim responsibility for that.
The Vice-Chair: Any other questions? Mr Elston, you did not have any?
Mr Elston: No, I did not.
The Vice-Chair: No further questions. Thank you for attending before the committee. I wish you every success in your term on the police services board in Lakefield, Ontario.
Ms Adams: Thank you very much.
The Vice-Chair: The committee would like to deal with the concurrences in the intended appointees. Do you want to deal with it today? Is there any member who objects to having them confirmed today? If no member objects, Mr Wiseman moves concurrence of the appointees.
Mr Daigeler: Is it possible to ask questions beforehand?
The Vice-Chair: No, I do not think so. I think if you object to it, then --
Mr Daigeler: Can I make a comment?
The Vice-Chair: Yes, you can comment on it, sure.
Mr Daigeler: I just would like to know, seeing that this is the first time I am subbing on this committee --
Mr Grandmaître: And he is never coming back is what he told me.
Mr Daigeler: It depends on what answer I get to my question. It was indicated here that the candidates are recommended to the minister by the appointments advisory committee. Is it possible to know in particular why the appointments advisory committee recommended the first person, Mrs Hannaford?
Mr Wiseman: No.
The Vice-Chair: We do not know why. Does anybody know why?
Mr Wiseman: They send them here, we screen them and send them on to bigger and better things.
Mr Elston: No. They are screened, then they are sent here and then we --
The Vice-Chair: That is right.
Mr Wiseman: It is all in the view of the world, Mr Elston; it is all the way the world spins.
Mr Daigeler: I could not figure out at all what her qualifications would be for this position. I can see on the second person, but not on the first.
Mr Waters: On how this is done, it is my understanding that what they are trying to do with the police services board, as with some of the other ones, is get a cross-section from the community. If you had five lawyers who applied to be on the police services board and there was one member of the general public, obviously that member of the general public would come through the system, so that there is a good cross-section representative of the entire community. I suspect that is probably why both of these ladies were put forward, their names brought forward, to fill up the cross-section of the community.
The Vice-Chair: If I could bring you up to date on it, there was an appointment made to the Orillia Police Services Board and then that person resigned before he took office. The city council and the police services board sent in names of recommendations. None of them had been accepted either time. I guess the question is right. This lady applied and the review board accepted her.
Mr Daigeler: I understand and appreciate that obviously not all of these people will have any in-depth knowledge of the particular work they are applying for, but I think there should be at least some basic knowledge and appreciation of what their work will entail. I did not get that at all with the first person. I was just wondering what --
The Vice-Chair: I think we have had a fair discussion on this. I think we should put the question. If there is anybody opposed to a vote taking place on either one of these, I would like them to indicate. If there are not, then we will proceed. All those in favour of Mr Wiseman's motion?
Motion agreed to.
Mr Daigeler: I do not know whether this is recorded, but I am not opposed on the second one. I thought you were doing this person by person.
The Vice-Chair: I was just going to ask the clerk now. I thought we did them one at a time.
Mr Waters: The last while we have been lumping them together, for the last month or two. If you want to propose that one goes ahead and the other does not, then we have done that historically as well.
The Vice-Chair: That is right. It is not recorded.
Interjection.
The Vice-Chair: I observed that it was not unanimous.
Mr Daigeler: I just wanted to say that I have no objection on the second person.
The Vice-Chair: Right. That is on the record.
We are dealing at 11 o'clock with the TVOntario review, if I could have your attention. That is in full view of everyone. That will be at 11 o'clock. Do we want to adjourn for five minutes and start at 11 sharp?
The committee recessed at 1053.
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ONTARIO EDUCATIONAL COMMUNICATIONS AUTHORITY / OFFICE DE LA TÉLÉCOMMUNICATION ÉDUCATIVE DE L'ONTARIO
The Vice-Chair: Would the members take their places, please. We would like to proceed with the further review of TVO. It is my understanding that we have a specific subject to be discussed and we have only an hour, so I would like to know if you have any opening remarks. If you have, we will give you a maximum of 10 minutes. Would you tell us who you are, your names, for Hansard, so that we know who is before us.
Mr Bowers: My name is Peter Bowers. I am the chief operating officer of TVOntario. As of December 16 I have been asked by the board of directors of TVOntario to be responsible for all the duties of the chief executive officer until the government appoints Mr Ostry's successor.
I would like to introduce my colleagues with me today. Rhéal Leroux is a member of TVOntario's board of directors. Jacques Bensimon is the managing director of French programming at TVOntario. Ross Mayot is managing director of community/government and corporate development.
We welcome the opportunity to provide you with the information on La Chaîne. With your approval, I would like to propose the following process. Mr Leroux would read a brief statement from Erica Cherney, vice-chair of the board who, during the interregnum, is carrying out the responsibilities of the chair. Mr Bensimon will follow as a brief outline of La Chaîne's foundation and mandate. I will conclude with a succinct presentation based on some four charts which we have prepared for you providing the financial data you requested. We can keep within the 10-minute time line.
If we can proceed on that basis, I would just make one point of clarification. When we refer to La Chaîne, we refer to the French-language programming service TVO provides. When we refer to TVO we are referring to the English-language programming service. When we refer to TVOntario we are talking about the entire organization. With that, I turn it over to Mr Leroux.
Mr Elston: It is my understanding that the matter before us has been raised by Mr Runciman. May I ask if he is coming?
The Vice-Chair: Mr Runciman had to go back to the riding. He had a funeral he had to attend unexpectedly.
Mr Elston: I know we probably do not want to disadvantage people, but must we compel this going forward without the sponsor?
The Vice-Chair: That will be up to the committee.
Mr Elston: I do not want to inconvenience anyone but I think the proponent of this activity ought to be here.
The Vice-Chair: I agree with you. However, he was unexpectedly delayed.
Mr Elston: Yes, and I am not blaming him for it. In my view some of us are quite interested in La Chaîne, but perhaps for other reasons, and I think it is interesting that the person who has most been critical is absent.
Mr Marchese: I should point out that it was I who wanted to have the figures. Mr Runciman has different views on La Chaîne altogether and I agree with the member that it would be good to have him here, given his views and what he is likely to say in the future on this. But I would prefer to proceed, given my interest and many others' in terms of getting the figures we wanted.
Mr Elston: As long as it is understood that we may need to bring the people back. Is that what I am to understand?
The Vice-Chair: That may happen.
Mr Elston: Or are we to conclude this today?
The Vice-Chair: Yes, that may happen. Your point is very well taken. I think we should proceed at this time. Mr Leroux.
M. Leroux : Membres du comité, au nom du bureau de direction de La Châine de TVOntario, je tiens à vous remercier de nous avoir invités et de nous donner la chance de pouvoir présenter un peu les aspects positifs et financiers de l'existence de La Chaîne.
In light of the committee's follow-up today, the board of directors of TVO particularly welcomes this opportunity to share with committee members our pride in La Chaîne. I am confident that M. Bowers, M. Mayot and M. Bensimon will provide you with the portrayal of an educational broadcaster whose role is integral to the survival and prosperity of Ontario French-speaking communities. We are pleased that today's discussion will allow them to inform you on the strong support for La Chaîne from government ministries, teachers' associations, francophone groups and student associations.
Le conseil d'administration est profondément convaincu que La Chaîne réponde de façon unique et essentielle aux besoins critiques des Ontariens de langue française dans les domaines éducatifs, linguistiques et culturels.
At a time when the need for formal and informal learning is greater than ever, at a time when constitutional issues have made all Canadians aware of the need to expand the common ground between francophone and anglophone throughout Canada, and in light of the legislative responsibilities associated with Bill 8, the board of directors of TVOntario affirms its continuing support for La Chaîne.
J'aimerais aussi profiter de l'occasion pour avoir donné la chance d'avoir la traduction simultanée ce matin, permettant aux francophones de ce comité de pouvoir s'exprimer dans la langue de leur choix.
Je vais être heureux au cours de la réunion de pouvoir répondre, au nom du bureau de direction, à toutes les questions des membres du comité. Merci.
Mr Bowers: We would like Mr Bensimon to brief you on the establishment of La Chaîne.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Bensimon.
Mr Bensimon: I wrote the presentation about La Chaîne de TVOntario, but in full respect of the committee's use of time, I would rather distribute copies of it for your consideration. It is available here. I will take just a few minutes to attract your attention to four points which could be helpful for the committee's deliberation.
First of all, contrary to a general broadcaster that scrambles for viewerships, competing somewhere between sports, news and Hollywood soaps, we pride ourselves at La Chaîne on being a grass-roots network fully dedicated to lifelong learning for all francophones and francophiles in Ontario.
Second, within the curriculum guidelines of partners like the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Colleges and Universities, schools and colleges in this province, our goal is to serve the educational and learning needs of Ontarians in French, from preschoolers to distance education, from illiteracy courses to teachers' training. Our learning system is considered today one of the most important inventory of such programs available in French in this country -- a true heritage to our children.
Third, since the inception of La Chaîne, we have been responsible for training many young Ontarians in the television business by providing on-the-job trades and skills and therefore have been an incentive to job employment. This has stimulated the creation of independent production companies in our province. In turn, it has allowed us to access new sources of leverage funding for TVOntario.
Fourth and finally, in these days of morose news on the future of our country and the economic turmoil we are living through, La Chaîne is a success story, not because I say so but because others across Canada and the world have attributed us awards to tell us how good our programs are. Canadian and foreign broadcasters seek our partnership. Our series are bought around the world and it is allowing us to tap into new markets such as la francophonie of 170 million people strong.
One final thought: When francophones speak in Ontario about La Chaîne, they do not speak about La Chaîne only; they speak about notre Chaîne. In these days when foreign and US satellite signals are about to enter into our homes, I do not know of too many broadcasters who can speak about such commitment from their viewers.
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Mr Bowers: I have tabled with your secretary four charts which I think explain our financial situation. If I may very briefly explain them to you, we could then be ready for any questions you have.
The first chart is a pie chart of the total expenditures of TVOntario for the year 1990-91. The expenditures in 1990-91 totalled $91.6 million. The major categories were: programming, 58%; distribution, 11%; administration, 10%; revenue-generating activities, 11%; capital expenditures, 8%, and 2% on research and development.
Just a very quick breakdown on programming: The $53 million on programming includes $40.5 million for program production, co-production and acquisitions of programs. It includes $4.5 million for program support activities, $2.7 million for educational services, $5.8 million for promotion of the network and services and $1.6 million for operation of our network office, which does the scheduling of the programs and that sort of thing.
The second chart is a comparison of the English and French programming expenditures. As you will see, we spend 68% of our expenditures on the English service, plus the common services that the English service uses, and we spend 32% of our expenditures on the French programming service.
I think it is important to recognize the impact of shared services. Approximately 47% of our expenditures represent a sharing of common resources between both services. For example, broadcast distribution, operation of the transmitters, research and development, administration, project funding and capital expenditures are all expenditures which are shared between the two networks.
Chart 3 is an explanation of how the programming money for La Chaîne is spent. I will ask Jack Bensimon to explain this chart to you very briefly.
Mr Bensimon: We are starting with the enfance and jeunesse sector of activities combined with their utilization. You have a picture of fully dedicated commitment to educational programming that is very closely worked out with the Ministry of Education and other partners.
If you look at the 39% dealing with adults, it is important to understand that it continues the educational element. It includes distance education, training of teachers, formal courses with colleges and universities throughout the province, and illiteracy.
Mr Bowers: Finally, chart 4 is really an explanation of the sources of revenue for La Chaîne. You will see that the revenue for La Chaîne amounts to $28.7 million. The first slice, which is identified as "Project," is shorthand for project funding. These are projects where we go out and secure funding both from government and the private sector to support program production.
Seven per cent of the revenue comes from sales of our programs and from membership revenues; 22% is for conditional grants -- these are grants we receive from the government to do specific types of programming; 27% is for the base funding. Finally, 24% is funding specifically for the operation of La Chaîne.
I would also note that in 1990-91 the province, under the former Liberal government, approved permanent funding for the support of La Chaîne. This amounts to $6.9 million. We also receive other programming support for curriculum-based programming. These approached $19 million in 1990-91. A significant portion of these were earmarked for La Chaîne. This is in recognition of the province's desire to support the use of French in Ontario.
That concludes our introductory presentation, and we are available for questions.
M. Grandmaître : Je crois que notre comité ne s'est jamais arrêté pour questionner la qualité de la programmation de La Chaîne française. Je crois que c'était reconnu dès le début que La Chaîne de TVO présentait une programmation de grande qualité. Par contre, si je peux revenir à vos tableaux, j'aimerais plus d'explications surtout sur les tableaux 2 et 3, et sur numéro 4, les revenus.
La chose qui nous a sauté aux yeux à une réunion préalable à laquelle le Président, Monsieur Runciman, a fait allusion, c'est que La Chaîne dépensait entre 30 % et 35 % du budget total de TVO. C'était la question primordiale. A ce moment-là, selon les chiffres qu'on avait avancés, seulement 180 mille personnes de langue française regardaient La Chaîne et par contre, 2 millions d'Ontariens regardaient ou écoutaient TVO.
Je ne vois pas le 30 % ou le 35 % que je crois M. Ostry avait mentionné. Pouvez-vous m'expliquer ce matin quelles sont les vraies dépenses et les revenus de La Chaîne?
Mr Bowers: I believe I understand the question, but I am sorry, I do not have a translation unit. So I believe you asked for, first of all --
Mr Grandmaître: A detailed explanation, because we were told previously that the total cost of La Chaîne was equal to between 30% and 35% of the total TVO budget. When I look at chart 2 and chart 4, the expenditures and revenue, can you explain or can you provide me with more details or a better breakdown of the total cost of operating La Chaîne and the total revenues by La Chaîne? Do they really equal between 30% and 35% of the total operating costs of TVO?
Mr Bowers: A more exact figure is that 32% of the total expenditures of TVOntario are attributed to the operation of La Chaîne. On the revenue side, 32% of the revenue received by TVOntario is attributed to La Chaîne. So when Mr Ostry said 30% to 35%, the figure is more exactly 32%.
M. Leroux : Si vous me permettez d'être un petit peu plus précis là-dessus, Monsieur Grandmaître, c'est que 17 % du budget de TVO est strictement affecté à la programmation de La Chaîne ; le 15 % c'est des services mis en commun, qui est une évaluation des coûts de personnel, des coûts de publicité, des coûts un peu de tout et ça fait un total, les deux combinés, de 32 %. Mais il ne faut pas oublier qu'il y a des revenus qui sont liés à l'existence même de La Chaîne. Pour l'entente fédérale-provinciale, le fédéral contribue aux revenus de La Chaîne strictement parce que c'est une chaîne. Dans ce sens-là il y a des revenus qui sont justifiés strictement parce qu'il y a un réseau français.
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M. Grandmaître : Alors vous me dites, Monsieur Leroux, que l'entente fédérale-provinciale permet à La Chaîne de recevoir des octrois spéciaux.
M. Leroux : Oui, historiquement en 1985, Susan Fish, ministre du Parti conservateur, et Marcel Masse, ministre du Parti conservateur, ont annoncé la création de La Chaîne dans une entente fédérale de 30 millions de dollars. Le Parti conservateur du temps avait annoncé une contribution de 50 % de ce montant. Cette entente a été signée au début de 1986 avec les Libéraux, était poursuivie, et la création de La Chaîne a eu lieu le 1erjanvier 1987. Cette entente fédérale-provinciale existe depuis 1985 alors que Susan Fish, ministre de la Culture et des Communications du moment, avait signé l'entente avec Marcel Masse. C'est strictement lié à La Chaîne.
M. Grandmaître : Une dernière question, Monsieur le Président : Si La Chaîne n'existait pas, quelles seraient vos prévisions des coûts d'opération de TVOntario?
M. Leroux : Je vais vous donner une réponse. Quand La Chaîne n'existait pas, 17 % du budget de TVOntario était pour la programmation de langue française. Depuis l'existence, d'une vingtaine d'années, de la télévision de langue anglaise du réseau, on a toujours consacré une journée ou une programmation à la télévision. Il y avait 17 % du budget de l'ensemble de TVO à ce moment-là qui était pour la partie française. On ne peut pas dire que ça n'existait pas. Ça fait 20 ans que ça existe.
Dans un deuxième temps, si vous prenez le tableau 4, il y a beaucoup de projets qui sont financés par l'entreprise privée ou par des agences ou par des ministères qui sont strictement liés à la réalisation d'émissions en français. Ce n'est pas une question de prendre des sous et puis les mettre dans une autre boîte. Il y a la vente de nos programmes, ce qui représente 7 %. Bien, si ça n'existait pas, ce ne seraient pas des revenus. Et il y a les octrois conditionnels que je disais tantôt, du fédéral, qui sont aussi des conditionnels qui existent dans une programmation française. Si je lis bien votre question, je ne connais pas tous les détails, Monsieur Grandmaître, mais la grande majorité de ces revenus-là n'existerait pas s'il n'y avait pas La Chaîne.
M. Daigeler : Le tableau 2, j'ai un peu de difficulté à comprendre exactement ce que veut dire les services communs. Il y a deux colonnes : un service commun français et un en anglais. Je pensais que ça devrait être une unité. C'est commun anglophone et francophone, je suppose, alors comment est-ce que ça se fait qu'il y en a deux ?
Mr Bowers: There is only one common service. This is the allocation of the cost of those common services to the English service and to the French service. We have one engineering department. We have one distribution department. They provide services to both English and French.
M. Daigeler : C'est l'allocation. Sur quelle base est-ce que vous avez fait cette distribution ?
Mr Bowers: In some cases the services are provided discreetly and solely to a particular service and we can take the total cost of that. In the case of administrative cost we have to allocate the cost on whatever rational basis we can find.
In the case of satellite distribution, both the English service and the French service use one transponder, so in that case it is allocated on a 50-50 basis. In the case of operating the transmitters, there are, I think, 25 English-language transmitters and three French-language transmitters so we allocate the vast preponderance of the cost of operating the transmitters to the English service.
In the case of the chief operating officer -- myself -- we try to come up with as good a basis. In my case, it would be allocated on the basis of the revenues we generate for both services, so it is roughly one third, two thirds.
M. Daigeler : Qui est-ce qui prend ces décisions-là ? Est-ce que c'est le conseil ou est-ce que c'est vous ?
Mr Bowers: It is the senior management who make recommendations to the board. The board ultimately approves the budget, so the board approves the policy. We do the technical administration work.
M. Daigeler : Quelle est la relation de La Chaîne avec le service similaire au Québec ? Est-ce qu'il y a d'autres provinces au Canada qui ont un même service ?
Mr Bowers: I would think Jacques Bensimon is the right person to answer that question.
M. Bensimon : Nous travaillons de très près. Si, par exemple, on regarde une recommandation importante qui a été faite au mois d'août à Windsor par l'Association canadienne d'éducation de langue française, qui est le regroupement de tous les enseignants à travers le Canada, ces gens-là ont dit que La Chaîne devrait être accessible à l'ensemble des Canadiens, à l'ensemble des francophones. C'est pour vous donner une ampleur de l'appréciation, si vous voulez, de l'ensemble des enseignants sur notre matériel.
Ceci dit, nous travaillons de très près avec Radio-Canada, avec Radio-Québec, qui est notre contrepartie régionale au Québec, et très souvent avec l'Association des télédiffuseurs éducatifs du Canada, qui est le regroupement à travers le Canada de toutes les télévisions éducatives. Nous combinions nos efforts pour coproduire ou pour acheter certaines émissions ensemble et, en dehors de notre propre pays, avec tout ce qui est chaîne de type éducative, incluant la France, par exemple, avec le Centre national des outils pédagogiques, qui a signé avec nous une entente importante pour aussi coproduire des émissions.
Mr Daigeler : One final one; je l'avais oublié. M. Leroux avait dit que 17 % du budget était toujours réservé pour une programmation française. Alors, vraiment, il n'y a pas eu de changements dans l'allocution des dépenses.
Mr Leroux : Il y a toujours une participation assez importante de TVO à l'existence même de programmes en français et à la création de programmes. Les budgets supplémentaires qui ont été créés lors de la venue de La Chaîne l'ont été principalement sur une entente fédérale-provinciale, sous de nouvelles sources de revenus avec d'autres partenaires et aussi avec la vente de notre équipement, alors le 1er janvier 1987, La Chaîne n'a pas occasionné à TVO une nouvelle dépense qui n'était pas connue. Il y avait déjà un pourcentage ; 17 % de ce budget-là était déjà alloué à l'existence du programme français.
Je voudrais revenir aussi, comme membre du conseil d'administration, à votre question concernant l'utilisation. Le bureau de direction de TVOntario a mandaté La Chaîne et la direction anglaise de la programmation à travailler conjointement à la réalisation d'émissions. Il est évident qu'il y a la section anglaise qui fait 90 % ou 95 % de ses programmes en anglais, et aussi la direction française. Mais contrairement à Radio-Canada où l'on voit deux identités, le bureau de direction de TVO a demandé que la programmation soit divisée mais que des services en commun existent. A Radio-Canada ce sont deux mondes différents.
C'est autour de ça, ces services en commun, que vous avez posé votre question. On partage un peu, tout le monde, les dépenses reliées au personnel, à la direction et à la publicité.
M. Marchese : Je veux tout d'abord vous saluer et vous féliciter.
I want to preface my remarks by saying I am a strong supporter of La Chaîne and wish it to continue in the way it has existed for quite some time now.
My first question is to the Chair. We had asked that this report be given to us in advance of the meeting. Can I ask what difficulties we had in getting it before today?
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The Chair: The researcher will answer that one.
Mr Pond: I cannot remember the exact date, but when the committee met and decided to have representatives of the Authority come back I was asked to contact them and I did. I asked them to provide some written material. As I recall, they indicated they would be able to get it to the committee before today. As far as I know, this is the first time the committee has seen the written material.
Mr Marchese: It is always a problem because many of us want to reflect on the figures that will be before us. It is always important to get it in advance so we can think about those figures and be a little more prepared for the kinds of questions we want to ask. I just wanted to get a sense of why it did not come before us.
The Vice-Chair: Perhaps you could ask the people at the front why we did not get it.
Mr Bowers: I would ask Ross to respond.
Mr Mayot: It is my understanding that when we were advised that you would like to have us back for some discussion on the general area of La Chaîne, we never received any formal specific questions to which we could reply. I apologize if there was an expectation that you were going to get a response to specific questions, but to my knowledge we never were advised specifically what you wanted to speak with us about today.
Mr Marchese: I see. Our request was actually to get whatever it is that you would produce before us in advance, as opposed to answering particular questions. But I appreciate the answer. The reason we have had some difficulties, at least myself, is because when Mr Ostry came before this committee he raised some points.
One of the points was that La Chaîne consumed 30% to 35% of TVOntario's entire budget. I thought that was inaccurate. That is one of the reasons we wanted to have you here. But the figures more or less indicate there is that kind of expenditure. That is fine. What concerned me more was the other comment that followed that. To paraphrase it, he was concerned that La Chaîne not become a burden on the authority's scarce resources. Is that view shared by many in TVO, either board or administration? Was that simply a personal view that may have been stated? Or are you all here to indicate, as you have been, complete support for La Chaîne?
Mr Bowers: First of all, we are here to indicate complete support for La Chaîne. I think the thrust of his remark was essentially a plea that the government support us sufficiently so that we can program both services adequately.
M. Leroux : Si je peux répondre un peu politiquement à votre question, quand Monsieur Ostry était haut fonctionnaire à Ottawa aussi bien qu'ici à Toronto, il avait la réputation d'être une personne très dévouée à l'organisme qu'il défendait. A tout moment, s'il pouvait demander ou faire un plaidoyer pour plus d'argent pour l'organisme qu'il dirigeait, c'était un peu la réputation qu'il avait. Dans ce sens-là c'est absolument normal ; on sait comme membres du bureau des gouverneurs qu'il nous fait tout le temps des plaidoyers pour avoir plus d'argent.
Je pense que vous avez visé le conseil d'administration. Unanimement, le conseil d'administration, encore à peine six mois, a répété son appui complet à La Chaîne face à la future demande que nous devons faire auprès du CRTC. C'est unanime et pour nous, membres du bureau de direction, et je parle au nom de tous les membres, La Chaîne fait partie intégrante de TVO. Ce n'est certainement pas un fardeau du point de vue de l'administration.
Mr Marchese: I do not mind individuals talking about the support they need to be able to carry on with their programming. The difficulty I had was that he focused on French programming and he made it appear as if that was dragging down the programming in general, talking about the difficulties for TVO in general. If he had talked generally about needing more financial resources for TVO, which includes French programming and English programming, it would not have been so bad. For me it was the particular focus he appeared to be giving to La Chaîne and saying that it is becoming a burden on the Authority's scarce resources. As you put it, I have no difficulty with that. As I read it, it did create some difficulties for me.
But I want to continue with some questions, because what I wanted to put on record are specific things that I think need to be said about La Chaîne. I want any one of you to talk about, if you have not already done so, the penetration level of La Chaîne to the French community, which numbers 500,000 or more, and TVO English programming and its penetration level, and how the two compare.
Mr Bowers: I would ask Jacques Bensimon if he would start the response to that question.
Mr Bensimon: We are talking about a potential audience among the franophones in this province of French mother tongue of about 500,000 people. The average audience for La Chaîne is 184,000. The key factor in all this, and I will give you some figures, is that we are at this point reaching 46% of all francophone children in this province who view La Chaîne on a weekly basis.
The second thing is that if we are entering into the field, and it is important that we speak about the niche-type of programming we are into, we are not a broadcaster trying to compete with Radio-Canada or CTV. We are in the education business and as such one has to take into consideration that there are schools out there that are using our programs on a daily basis.
The way it happens is that, for example, since the creation of La Chaîne we have a system called the Vipsrights, which are cassettes sent to schools. Of those cassettes which are sold or given to schools, 25% are coming from La Chaîne. If we are talking about the catalogue we have in terms of immersion programming, for example, at this point the catalogue represents 90% of the programs that are used in immersion schools. What we would like to talk about in our case is not viewers, but learners. When we are talking about learners, we are getting into a whole different field, and I wish that would be appreciated.
Mr Marchese: I also appreciate that. That was part of my second question in terms of who the main users are, and I think you have answered that fairly well. In terms of the penetration, you touched on it in part, but I wanted to know the relative penetration differences between TVO English programming and how many it reaches in the English language programming and TVO French and how many it reaches relative to its own numbers. Do we have those comparative numbers?
Mr Bowers: I would ask Ross to respond.
Mr Mayot: If I may, just by way of distinguishing between the distribution systems per se and the audiences. As the committee members may recall from our appearance in August, the English language distribution system that has built up over the years in terms of transmitters and cable now allows us to reach 97% of the people of Ontario. In comparison, the French language network, La Chaîne, which is reliant predominantly upon cable, is at about a 75 percentile in terms of access. In other words, 75% of the people can even get it. In relation to that, we have submitted some plans to try to enhance the La Chaîne network so that the actual ability to receive the service can be increased.
Mr Marchese: Okay, Ross, but when you break that down further, the signal is able to reach 75% of the entire francophone community?
Mr Mayot: That is correct.
Mr Marchese: The signal of the English reaches 95%. Of that, when you break it down in terms of viewers, I know there is a higher rate of penetration within that 75 percentile of the people who can be reached. There is a higher rate of penetration with francophones than there is with the English and that is all I wanted to establish. But you do not have the figures?
Mr Mayot: You mean the relationship between the viewers and how many people watch on a weekly basis. On the English side it is something under two million viewers per week, and as Jacques said, on the French side it is about 180,000. In terms of the ratios, I have not worked those out but it could be modestly higher in relative terms on the French side, yes.
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Mr Marchese: Does Jacques have those?
Mr Bensimon: No, I do not have the numbers.
Mr Marchese: I just wanted to establish that it is higher penetration level of TVO and La Chaîne in terms of how many people watch La Chaîne and how many people watch English programming; it is a higher ratio.
The other question I wanted to ask was the cost of educational programming, English and French. Do we have the relative cost differences between the two?
Mr Bowers: It may take us a moment just to try to pull those figures from our information.
Mr Bensimon: I could in the meantime give you an idea of what it means for us, and we are looking at chart 2, which points to a direct budget of $15.4 million. For that amount, in our case, we produce and co-produce the equivalent of 333 hours of original programming. But if you break it down into production, co-production and acquisition, overall La Chaîne has access to 1,519 hours of new programming per year, which represents a breakdown of $10,138 per hour.
I would like also to stress the fact that when the CBC or Radio-Québec produces a show for $150,000 to $800,000, in our case that is a budget that allows us to produce 13 30-minute programs that at times have a shelf life of about 10 years and that are used by many generations of Ontarians. Because when you display a mathematics or a trigonometry aspect of learning, that goes on living. It is not like a news program or a documentary that dies out.
I do not have the figures to compare with the English, though.
Mr Bowers: I can give you an approximation of the ratio in La Chaîne. We do not have the numbers for the TVO English service here. In terms of direct programming, we spend $5.998 million in adult in the French service; we spend $7.7 million for services to what we call enfance and jeunesse, as well as utilisation, which is working with the teachers. So the ratio of $7.7 million to $6 million is a sort of raw, very rough estimate of the ratio of the amount of money we spend for formal education. I say that is rough because included in the $6 million for adults is adult education. Things like adult literacy, distance education and teacher education are all included in that $6 million. So within the ratio, even more of the money would be spent on formal education than those numbers would indicate. We can certainly get you the numbers for the other service; we just do not have them with us.
Mr Marchese: I want to make up one last question and then I want to give you some figures for the purposes of information so that they go on the record. Almost 50% of francophones have not completed high school, and illiteracy levels among francophones are twice those of non-francophones. That was alluded to earlier. Only 43% of francophones have access to a college campus offering programs in French within 40 kilometres.
In comparison, more than 90% of Ontarians can access English-language programs. The participation rate of francophones in post-secondary education is half that of non-francophones. They tend to be marginalized into low-skill, low-paying and high-risk sectors of the economy, and 80% of francophones live in the regions of the province characterized by weak economies. Further, francophone women are particularly marginalized. They tend to occupy non-unionized jobs, and twice as many women as men earn less than $10,000 per year. In 1986, 40% of francophone men and 70% of the women were earning less than $20,000.
In your view, do these figures confirm for us why it is essential to have La Chaîne in existence?
Mr Bowers: Jacques and then Rhéal.
Mr Bensimon: That is basically what our program is all about. If I take back every one of the items you have listed, in terms of literacy we are working very closely with the grouping of the 26 francophone illiteracy organizations in this province. We are entering now into phase 2 after having produced a major program three years ago on this subject.
In terms of colleges, we work very closely with the Cité collégiale. We have a memorandum of understanding with the Cité collégiale, a three-part understanding where we train some of the people; we work with them. Some of the students of the Cité collégiale have now been hired by La Chaîne. We work also with all colleges and universities. I am including Laurentian, Ottawa, etc.
In terms of the difficulty of the youth in a francophone area, a year and a half ago we opened a sector dedicated to that age group, and we have an advisory body made up of youths, of francophones throughout the province, to advise us on the matter.
In terms of distance education, the difficulty of reaching the population is the bulk of what Peter was pointing out in the adult programming area. In terms of formal courses, a lot of the subjects that have been touched upon, such as women's issues or violence in the family, are courses that now are available within our catalogue.
M. Leroux : Permettez-moi un dernier commentaire. Le rôle des fonctionnaires est de nous donner les chiffres précis sur l'existence de La Chaîne et sur les coûts, mais je pense que le rôle des gens qui prennent les décicions c'est de voir aussi à aider au développement d'une communauté.
Les chiffres de la communauté franco-ontarienne que vous avez présentés démontrent le besoin réel de faire des efforts. Quand on fait des efforts, des fois il y a des coûts associés à ces effort-là pour donner une chance égale. Il ne faudrait pas le cacher ; quand la communauté franco-ontarienne faisait des démarches auprès du premier ministre du temps, Bill Davis, pour la création de La Chaîne, c'était exactement pour donner aux jeunes Franco-Ontariens et aux jeunes Franco-Ontariennes les mêmes droits et les mêmes chances qu'aux autres. Ce n'est que depuis 1987 qu'un jeune, qu'il soit franco-jeunesse ou dans une autre école, a accès à La Chaîne et à la même justice.
Par contre, pour corriger tous les problèmes, ça va demander encore plus d'efforts, plus d'énergie, et malheureusement, dans bien des cas, plus de dollars.
M. Marchese : D'accord. Merci à vous tous.
Mr Wiseman: I have a couple of questions. You run a public request for funds, donations. How does that compare in terms of money coming in? How much money comes in from the La Chaîne side and from the TVO side?
Mr Bowers: I will ask Ross to respond to that. It is his area.
Mr Mayot: Our membership campaign generates just short of $4 million a year. That is overall, including the contributions that come in from the francophone component of society.
Recognizing that there may be a different approach to take with the francophone community around membership, we established last year the first telethon. It is on La Chaîne and it is a direct appeal to the francophone community. It turned out to be very successful as a startup initiative. We will be having our second telethon at the end of February 1992, so we are not only developing the overall membership campaign appealing to all Ontarians, but are recognizing the special measures that might be appropriate for the francophone community. Jacques may have a perspective on the telethon as well.
Mr Bensimon: If I could be allowed to speak just a few minutes about this telethon, it was by itself a happening on the air. It was incredible the way it was lived through. Basically it ended up with $100,000 that was given by a community of 500,000 people. On top of that, this year we have a commitment from Ontario's regrouping of francophone teachers, l'Association des enseignantes et des enseignants franco-ontariens, to have its members fully participate in the process themselves and commit themselves. We are talking about 6,000 teachers related to l'AEFO who commit their full participation and support.
We had participation from la Fédération des caisses populaires where all the employees collected money in order to give it to La Chaîne. It is that kind of grass roots we are reaching into when we are doing it at the La Chaîne level, but we are only doing it for the second year. TVO, on the English side, has been doing it for much longer than that.
Mr Wiseman: We have talked basically in dollars and cents here for the last almost 50 minutes. Is there any way you can give us a little bit better appreciation -- I know some of it has already been there -- of the true value in terms of societal needs and fulfilling the needs of the francophone community in Ontario that cannot be measured in dollars and cents? With that grass-roots outpouring of support in dollars and cents we can see that, but is there any other way you can give us some sense of the value?
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Mr Daigeler: I think you should ask Mr Runciman that question.
Mr Wiseman: Well, the question will be in Hansard and therefore it will be on the record.
The Vice-Chair: Direct your question to the witness, please.
Mr Wiseman: Sorry. Carry on.
Mr Bowers: First of all, let me say we have one more document we would like to table with you. It is called Récents témoignages sur La Chaîne de TVOntario. This is a series of quotations from various francophone groups around the province commenting on the impact of La Chaîne on their activities. I am going to ask Jacques to respond a little further.
I just want to make one other point, which is that when we were talking audience statistics, we were talking about the Bureau of Broadcast Measurement statistics. They measure, as imperfect as they are, the at-home audience. They do not measure the audience in the schools; they do not measure the teachers' use and that sort of thing.
With those comments, perhaps Jacques may want to speak just a little further about the impact of La Chaîne on the francophone community.
Mr Bensimon: Just for the record, Mr Wiseman, I would simply state that La Chaîne's mandate is really derived not from its funding but from public policy. It is important to straighten that out.
Perhaps I could be allowed just a few minutes. In this time of a lot of uncertainty at the level of our country, we have through La Chaîne, as Ontarians, given a voice to a lot of people who up to now were absent from the democratic process. I think what we sense on a daily basis at La Chaîne is that, be it from a child who can recognize his peers on the screen and recognize himself as an Ontarian and as somebody belonging to this country, that effort is quite unique and quite exceptional in this country. It is all a tribute to our province and to what we have done.
On top of that is the fact that you have a forum, a place of debate where you can exchange, where you can bring a different point of view on this country, aside from the point of view that is too often monolithically given to Quebec as far as francophones are concerned. We now have francophones who are able to state their views in this province at all kinds of levels, be it youth, children in school, etc.
I think above and beyond that is the kind of cross-cultural element Mr Rhéal Leroux was talking about. We have an institution, TVOntario, which is fully integrated. We might be on different floors as far as the English side and the francophone side, but the exchange that is taking place is of immense value.
I will just cite an example. There is a program on the English side called Imprint, and on the French side A comme Artiste. They got together and produced a program this week where they basically translated for each other's viewers, but we had it on one screen for the two of us and the two cultures were out there exchanging. That says a lot in this day and age. In my estimation, as an immigrant coming from another country, it proves to me that my father was right when he told me that in this country there is a fairer equality and there is cohabitation between French and English in this province.
Mr Bowers: Perhaps I could just ask Mr Leroux to comment from the perspective of the board.
M. Leroux : Comme homme d'affaires, il est toujours difficile de ne pas ramener les choses sur le plan économique. Je pense qu'on a parlé de dollars. Moi, j'aimerais seulement finaliser votre question en vous parlant de retombées économiques. La Chaîne a permis à des jeunes Franco-Ontariens et à des jeunes Franco-Ontariennes de devenir des techniciens, de devenir des réalisateurs et de devenir aussi des recherchistes. Il y a tout un impact économique qui n'a pas été mentionné ce matin qui a été créé dans cette province par la création de La Chaîne. On a créé des emplois. De ces emplois, on a créé des professionels, des techniciens ou des réalisateurs pour réaliser les émissions de La Chaîne, alors ça c'est un impact. Je suis très heureux de votre question parce qu'on ne peut pas évaluer un programme strictement basé sur des dollars et des sous et en comparant entre l'anglais et le français.
Le dernier point que j'aimerais mentionner, et je trouve qu'il n'a pas encore été assez mentionné ce matin, c'est que La Chaîne est aussi un service pour la communauté anglophone. La Chaîne vise les 500 000 anglophones de cette province qui comprennent ou parlent le français ou qui sont dans des écoles d'immersion. Ça, c'est important au niveau de La Chaîne. Au bureau de direction, on donne continuellement des directives à notre personnel de ne jamais oublier ces 500 000 anglophones qui regardent La Chaîne une heure ou quelque temps par semaine et qui peuvent aussi se procurer les émissions pour améliorer leur langue seconde.
Mr Wiseman: I agree with the last one because I am one of those people. I am not very conversant in French, but I am working at it when I watch La Chaîne, to pick up some, whatever I can.
The last question I have stems from my background as an educator. As Ross knows, I taught for 15 years. I used TVOntario extensively. I saw the value of it, either entire shows or using clips that were useful in the classroom and stimulated discussion and gave a perspective that was not always available from paper and straight verbal descriptions. So I do understand the value of the educational aspect of both the French and English sides.
My question has to do with measurement. I do not know if you can answer this or if you have done any studying, but are you able to measure at all the educational aspect of La Chaîne in terms of literacy and so on in the audience you are reaching? Can you measure that at all, to give us any kind of sense of how successful you are in terms of improving the quality of life that Rosario just indicated, in terms of making that a better part of the world?
Mr Bowers: Perhaps two bits of evidence: One is the response of the francophone community which we will table with you. Another is the study we do with the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education in terms of the use of TVO and La Chaîne programs in the classrooms and the growth of use by teachers over a five-year period, that sort of thing. We could table that study with you as well. It is a very positive result. I cannot quote the figures off the top of my head, but it is very encouraging growth in both the French service and the English service in terms of use of programs.
Perhaps Jacques would like to respond a little further in terms of the success factors.
Mr Leroux: As a direct answer to the impact on illiteracy, it is something which is hard to measure. As somebody who is in the teaching field, I could give you a figure. The use of video, since the creation of La Chaîne in school, has moved from 35% to 84% in classroom use in the francophone schools. That gives you an idea of the impact.
As you know, every program in that pie you have in there which deals with education is developed very closely with the Ministry of Education guidelines and curriculum guidelines. As far as that is concerned, we meet on a regular basis with the Ministry of Education. We meet on a regular basis with the 26 illiteracy groups. Last year, we had 1,007 participant teachers in courses that we give when we move around the country and workshops that we organize.
We work very closely with the University of Ottawa as far as training teachers in the teaching of science is concerned. On top of that, starting in January, we have a new twice-a-week program that will be on-line direct to teachers throughout the province in order to help them in training, but also in order to exchange among themselves as to the different approaches that are made to the pedagogical element by different teachers throughout the province. That would be a live program repeated at a different time during the day.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you for appearing before the committee this morning, you and your group, Mr Bowers. We appreciate it. The hearings now will be concluded. If we need further input, we will be in touch.
Mr Bowers: Thank you very much for the opportunity to appear. We can provide you with any information if you require it.
The Vice-Chair: I have asked the clerk to contact the subcommittee members for a specific time to meet tomorrow. I think it would be appropriate if Mr Runciman was here, because of the fact of our scheduling for January and February. If that is agreeable to the subcommittee, then we will meet tomorrow. The committee now stands adjourned.
The committee adjourned at 1201.