CONTENTS
Thursday 14 December 1995
Subcommittee report
Appointment of subcommittee
Committee business
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GENERAL GOVERNMENT
Chair / Président: Carroll, Jack (Chatham-Kent PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Maves, Bart (Niagara Falls PC)
*Carroll, Jack (Chatham-Kent PC)
Danford, Harry (Hastings-Peterborough PC)
Flaherty, Jim (Durham Centre / -Centre PC)
Grandmaître, Bernard (Ottawa East / -Est L)
*Hardeman, Ernie (Oxford PC)
Kells, Morley (Etobicoke-Lakeshore PC)
Marchese, Rosario (Fort York ND)
*Maves, Bart (Niagara Falls PC)
Pupatello, Sandra (Windsor-Sandwich L)
Sergio, Mario (Yorkview L)
Stewart, R. Gary (Peterborough PC)
Tascona, Joseph N. (Simcoe Centre / -Centre PC)
Wood, Len (Cochrane North / -Nord ND)
*Young, Terence H. (Halton Centre / -Centre PC)
*In attendance / présents
Substitutions present / Membres remplaçants présents:
Bassett, Isabel (St Andrew-St Patrick PC) for Mr Tascona
Caplan, Elinore (Oriole L) for Mr Sergio
Clement, Tony (Brampton South / -Sud PC) for Mr Kells
Ecker, Janet (Durham West / -Ouest PC) for Mr Stewart
Gerretsen, John (Kingston and The Islands / Kingston et Les Îles L) for Mrs Pupatello
Johns, Helen (Huron PC) for Mr Danford
Lankin, Frances (Beaches-Woodbine ND) for Mr Marchese
Phillips, Gerry (Scarborough-Agincourt L) for Mr Grandmaître
Sampson, Rob (Mississauga West / -Ouest PC) for Mr Flaherty
Also taking part / Autre participants et participantes:
Gilchrist, Steve (Scarborough East / -Est PC)
Clerk / Greffière: Grannum, Tonia
Staff / Personnel: Gardner, Bob, assistant director, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1543 in committee room 1.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT
The Chair (Mr Jack Carroll): We'll get started. We had copies of the subcommittee report for everybody; however, we've made a few alterations to it and another subcommittee report just before we got together here. If you will permit me, I will go through this. I don't think you have a copy of the amended one, so I will read it. It's what has been agreed to by the subcommittee members.
"Your subcommittee met on December 13, 1995, and on December 14, 1995, and recommends the following with respect to Bill 26, An Act to achieve Fiscal Savings and to promote Economic Prosperity through Public Sector Restructuring, Streamlining and Efficiency and to implement other aspects of the Government's Economic Agenda.
"(1) That witnesses are allotted one half-hour for presentations.
"(2) That public hearings would commence on Monday, December 18, 1995, at 11 am, and that the ministers responsible for the issues in each subcommittee start at 9 am and be allotted a total of one hour and each opposition party be allotted a half-hour for questions.
"(3) That on Friday, December 22, 1995, the committee would end public hearings at 6 pm rather than the motion that was passed in the House that said 9 pm." We changed that to 6 pm in deference to the fact that Christmas is two days later.
"(4) That for Toronto hearings, each caucus provide the clerk of the committee with a list of witnesses," which has been done.
"Witnesses will be scheduled by the clerk of the committee in rounds from the lists provided by the caucuses and the list of those witnesses who independently contacted the clerk's office." In other words, there will be four lists: one provided by the government; one provided by the official opposition; one provided by the third party; and a fourth list of people who've asked to make a presentation and whom no one has laid claim to. So there are four lists, and the clerk, Tonia, will go through in order -- one, two, three, four; one, two, three, four -- so that everyone has an opportunity for an equal number of presentations.
"That those witnesses who telephoned after the deadline" -- the deadline for next week being today -- "be placed on a waiting list and encouraged to send in written submissions." We already know we're going to have quite a few more than we intended.
For the purposes of meetings outside of Toronto, the process is exactly the same, with one small exception, and that is that none of the caucuses will provide a list. They will be provided with the telephone-generated list and they will make up their list from that. Does everybody understand it?
"(5) That the committees travel separately." In other words, we will not travel together as a group. As you know, we're going to split into two committees. We will be travelling separately "to the following communities throughout Ontario," and some of them are wonderful places in the month of January --
Mr Tony Clement (Brampton South): All of them.
Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): I think they're all wonderful.
The Chair: All of them. I'm not used to this political stuff yet.
"Niagara Falls," certainly one of the wonderful ones, "London, Kitchener, Windsor, Ottawa, Sudbury, Thunder Bay, Timmins, Hamilton," and then Peterborough and Kingston will be done on the same day with a half-day in each one. That gives us 11 communities.
"(6) That the committee advertise in the daily newspapers of the cities mentioned above and that in Ottawa the committee also advertise in the one French daily, Le Droit.
"The deadline for requests to appear before the committee in the various cities chosen will be one week prior to the date the committee is actually meeting in the city." In other words, if the meeting is scheduled for the 15th in Sudbury, the deadline for a request to appear would be the 8th, and that would be advertised in the newspaper. The only exception to that will be our first meeting on January 8. We will not have a whole week. We'll only have six days for a deadline there because of New Year's Day, so that will be the only exception.
"(7) That the Chair of the committee prepare a press release about the committee's hearings on Bill 26.
"(8) That no witness expenses will be paid" since we are travelling as a very expensive group.
"(9) That the researcher prepare a weekly summary of testimony received.
"(10) That the committee delegate authority to the Chair in consultation with the clerk to make any necessary decisions with respect to scheduling witnesses." Obviously, if they're controversial, I will talk to the subcommittee members, and so will Bart.
That's the subcommittee report.
Mr Clement: There was one thing I noted from our subcommittee that you didn't mention, and I wanted it on the record, with respect to cancellations: that they would be in the same rotation as the cancelled party, so that if there is a cancellation from a name derived from list A, the clerk would then go back to list A rather than to the other lists.
The Chair: That was something that we did agree to and that has been left off. We will add that to the subcommittee report.
Mr Rob Sampson (Mississauga West): What's the deadline for the written submissions for the Toronto hearings?
The Chair: The deadline was today.
Mr Sampson: For written submissions?
The Chair: We did not establish a deadline for written submissions. I presume we would take them up to the end.
Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): Usually written submissions are accepted right until the beginning of the clause-by-clause debate or the last day of the public hearing component, and I think that is appropriate.
Mr Sampson: Can I just clarify? I think you said we were starting on the 18th at 11, and then you said we were starting at 9. Which is it, the 18th being Monday? The public hearings starts at 11?
The Chair: On the 18th, the committee will actually start to sit at 9 o'clock. The first two hours will be devoted to presentations by the minister and the two opposition parties. Public presentations will begin at 11.
Mr Sampson: When are the first deputations starting? They're at 11 on Monday?
The Chair: Yes.
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Mr Sampson: When are they being advised of that, this being Thursday of the week before?
The Chair: Hopefully today. Five o'clock today is the deadline for the three caucuses to have their lists in.
Any other questions about the subcommittee report?
Mr Bart Maves (Niagara Falls): We're travelling to the same cities but at different times?
The Chair: Yes.
Mr Maves: I'm just wondering what the logic behind that was.
The Chair: Maybe we'll let Mr Phillips, who was part of the discussion, explain.
Mr Phillips: Our caucus felt fairly strongly about that, just because, imagine it goes to Hamilton and we've a member in Hamilton. I think the people who are going to present to the committee are probably among the community leaders, the chair of the hospital board, the chairman of the medical association, the various senior people in the health area, plus I suspect the other committee will hear from the mayor, the chief of police, the chief of the fire organization, the president of the chamber of commerce. Our members felt that they wanted to be there to hear both groups, so it was felt that's the only way it could happen. I think many of them felt that if they weren't there, somehow or other, to hear, as I say, the mayor or the chair of the hospital or whatever -- so it was for that reason.
Mr Clement: Just a point of information, Mr Chairman: I don't have it in front of me, but did you mention the rolling deadlines while we're on the road?
The Chair: Yes. One week prior to the date that we will be in the city will be the deadline for a request to appear.
Mr Clement: Except for January 8, in which case it would be January 2.
The Chair: Except for January 8, and I did explain that.
Mr Maves: Will the non-health committee have its own subcommittee? Because if we're in different cities --
The Chair: Yes. There is a motion here for you to appoint your own subcommittee.
Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): Just a technical point, Mr Chair: We've indicated in the subcommittee recommendation that the ads be placed in the dailies of that city, which I think is fine for everything but Timmins. I'm actually not sure that Timmins has a daily, so I hope we would just allow the clerk the flexibility to check that out, and potentially, if we can make the deadline, get it scheduled in the most appropriate weekly in that area.
The Chair: I guess that's fair, that if we have a city where there is not a daily newspaper, we get an appropriate ad in the right weekly. There is a very distinct possibility that we will have substantial lists before you even get around to advertising this.
Mr Phillips: A small thing: I think there was agreement that next week the two committees would meet in the Amethyst Room and another room, but that they would rotate each day; one day would be one group in the Amethyst Room --
The Chair: That's right. So when we arrive at work --
Mrs Janet Ecker (Durham West): Is someone going to tell us which one we're watching?
The Chair: When we arrive at work on Monday morning, the signs will be posted.
Mr Phillips: Just for each of us to know when to put a clean shirt on. I'm in the Amethyst Room; I'll wear my clean shirt.
The Chair: This room is also televised, but not on anything too exciting.
If there are no further questions on the subcommittee report, I'll have a motion for the adoption of the subcommittee report.
All those in favour? Opposed, if any? Thank you very much on the subcommittee report.
Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and The Islands): Who will be chairing the second committee?
The Chair: We've got a motion here now for that. We're just trying to get the names sorted out on it. As you know, the motion passed in the House allowing for this committee to split into two pieces, so what we will be doing here is putting forward a motion to form a subcommittee which will be empowered to do certain things.
APPOINTMENT OF SUBCOMMITTEE
Mr Clement: I'd like to move that a subcommittee be established for the purpose of receiving evidence during the weeks of December 18, 1995, January 8, 1996, and January 15, 1996, from 9 am to 9 pm, on schedules A, B, C, D, E, J, K, L, M, N, O, P and Q of Bill 26, An Act to achieve Fiscal Savings and to promote Economic Prosperity through Public Sector Restructuring, Streamlining and Efficiency and to implement other aspects of the Government's Economic Agenda; that the subcommittee be composed of the following members: Mr Maves as Chair, Mr Tascona as Vice-Chair, Mr Grandmaître, Mrs Pupatello, Mr Wood, Mr Flaherty, Mr Young and Mr Hardeman; that substitution be permitted on the subcommittee in accordance with standing order 110(c); that the subcommittee be authorized to adjourn from place to place in Ontario in accordance with standing order 121(a); that a majority of the members of the subcommittee, including the Chair, shall constitute a quorum; and that a full Hansard service be provided for all meetings of the subcommittee at which evidence is received.
The Chair: Does everyone understand that motion?
Mrs Caplan: The only thing is, is that going to be the subcommittee that's doing health?
The Chair: No, that's the subcommittee that's doing everything other than health.
Mr Phillips: I think I made a mistake. It should have been Mr Gerretsen and myself on that.
The Chair: Yes, but we have to name the original committee members, then substitutions take place. So we've named the original committee members on that subcommittee.
Any other questions on that?
All those in favour of that motion? Any opposed?
Mr Maves, your committee now can pass the motion independently when you meet to form a subcommittee, and the clerk has that motion for you.
COMMITTEE BUSINESS
The Chair: While Tonia's handing out a copy of an ad, sometimes when witnesses are called people tend to want to appear later on in the week. When witnesses are called, they refuse to meet on Monday or Tuesday. They say they can't be here on Monday or Tuesday. Tonia needs a little bit of a club to fill in the Mondays and Tuesdays. Her suggestion is that if they say they cannot appear on Monday or Tuesday, they're then told that they have to go to the bottom of the list.
Mrs Caplan: Say that again?
The Chair: Tonia has experienced problems with people not wanting to appear on Mondays and Tuesdays and everyone wanting to be in the latter part of the week. She needs a little bit of a club to be able to say to people, "We need to fill up Monday and Tuesday also." What she's suggesting is that she be able to say to people, if they refuse to appear on Monday and Tuesday, they have to take their chances in going to the bottom of the list.
Mrs Caplan: The only thing that I would suggest is that there are some on that list that I know would like to request a specific day, and perhaps we could talk about that, so that could be accommodated wherever possible for the timing, because some are working on substantial presentations that will not be ready until Wednesday or Thursday or Friday.
The Chair: The problem with that, especially in Toronto, when we start making those calls this afternoon or tomorrow, is that everybody's going to say, "I'm not ready for Monday."
Mr Gerretsen: Who makes the choice then as to who should come on Monday?
The Chair: Each party has given us a list of priorities, so she would go with the first person on the list who would be the first person she would call for the first spot.
Mr Gerretsen: As long as it's known to them that they can't come when they want, that they may be pushed down to the bottom of the list and probably not be heard at all, I'm sure they'll be here.
The Chair: Tonia would like us to give her the approval to do that. Does anybody have a problem with that? She won't misuse it. We don't need a motion for that, do we? Does everybody agree on that? Okay.
Now the copy of the ad: There would be two separate ads, obviously. One would be this ad. The other one would be an ad that just said "matters relating to health issues," because of course they're two separate committees, and they would have the phone, the location of the meeting and that kind of information in it. We're just looking at the format of the ad. Anybody see a problem with it? Rob?
Mr Sampson: In this copy of the ad you've got the bullet points for the location, the time and the hotel, but you don't for the dates. Just make sure it doesn't get printed for Monday, January 15, in all the ads; that's what I'm getting at.
The Chair: Oh, the people in the clerk's office are very efficient. They would not --
Mr Sampson: It might slip through and I'd hate to see everybody showing up on January 15.
Mr Phillips: When we're travelling, I'm not sure we agreed we'll go right till 9 o'clock at night. I thought there was some discussion that we may have to break at --
The Chair: Yes, the times will be established.
Mr Phillips: That's fine.
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The Chair: The House approved 9 to 9. Travelling time has to be in that, so when we see the logistics of the travelling time, then we'll know what hours we can actually set, so that will be decided as we go along.
Mr Sampson: We are getting into the minutiae of detail here, but periodically, as we've seen today outside, throughout the winter Mother Nature does play havoc, which may force us not to actually get to a particular location or perhaps play havoc with some deputants who can't get from one place to the other in the allotted time. I don't expect any decision here on that matter, but I think we're going to have to show some flexibility and have to deal with the inevitable fact that we may not get to Sudbury.
The Chair: We basically have no flexibility because we're locked into a very tight schedule.
Mr Sampson: So if we're snowed out of Sudbury, Sudbury's off the list. That's the way it works.
The Chair: I guess the best we'd be able to do then would be to have written submissions from the people who are going to present. Everybody will understand the problem with weather. We don't have an extra week to add in anywhere because we're tied into clause-by-clause. We have to hope that doesn't happen, and if it happens, we'll deal with it as it comes up.
Mr Phillips: I'd hate you to miss out on Kingston, John.
Mr Gerretsen: I'm somewhat concerned about that day being split, because it can take quite a long time to get either from Peterborough to Kingston or vice versa in this kind of weather. I'd like to have some indication -- in the other places the committee can sit 12 hours, taking travel time out of it. What do you propose to do with respect to that split day? What kind of time factor are we talking about?
Mr Phillips: I think what we said was, if I might defend the subcommittee, if it's Kingston in the morning, we would be there the night before. We would start sharply at 9 o'clock and we would sit a little bit later in Peterborough. I think that's what we said.
Mr Gerretsen: So, for example, you'd go 9 to 1 and then 5 to 9, allowing four hours to travel and get settled and what have you.
Mr Phillips: I wouldn't think you'd allow four hours.
The Chair: I think what we agreed to was that we'd kind of leave it up to the Chair's discretion. We want to accommodate as many people as we can in both Peterborough and Kingston. If that happens to be a very long day, then it becomes a very long day. We'll see what the requests are before we decide, but we want to be fair. Yes, Mr Maves?
Mr Maves: Just referring back to attending different cities on different days, the question is that when we come back to do clause-by-clause, do all members at that point come back and discuss and vote on clause-by-clause, all aspects of the bill?
The Chair: That's right. We come back together as one committee to do clause-by-clause.
Mr Maves: How would the members not involved in the health side, for instance, when we come back to do clause-by-clause, having not been able to discuss with our colleagues or our members opposite during our travels about the hearings of that day, be able to informatively vote on clause-by-clause?
Mr Gerretsen: It's no different than the 60 amendments on Bill 7 that nobody had.
Mr Maves: I'd just like to go on record to say I actually did have those amendments.
Mr Terence H. Young (Halton Centre): For the record, so did I.
Ms Lankin: On a point of privilege, Mr Chairman: You had them before we did.
Mr Maves: Not before. I sat there and read them with you.
The Chair: Mr Maves, the researcher has informed me that all members of the committee will get the summaries. You will get the summary of your committee, you will get the summary of the health committee and you will have an opportunity to read the summary of the submissions. There will be that input available to all members, despite the fact that they're not on both sides.
Mr Maves: I just wanted that concern to be noted. Thank you.
Mr Gerretsen: And I echoed the Vice-Chair's concern.
The Chair: That basically is the extent of the business we have to conduct.
Mr Maves, you'll have to get together with your committee to decide on a Vice-Chair. Yes, Mrs Johns?
Mrs Helen Johns (Huron): Given that I've never been on committee before, can you explain how we move from one place to another? Are we just going to all drive our own cars from place to place?
The Chair: We will be travelling together. Basically, the north will be airplanes and the route up and down the 401, we'll have a bus.
Mrs Johns: We're all going together?
The Chair: The clerk takes care of all the travel arrangements, so you just pack your suitcase.
Mrs Johns: We just travel together for the week.
The Chair: We just travel together and we'll become real good friends.
If there's nothing else, if nobody else has any questions, enjoy your weekend and we'll see you Monday morning at 9 o'clock. I guess the decision about which room each of us will be in we'll know when we get here on Monday.
Mr Maves: I take it Tonia will be the clerk on the health side. Which clerk will be on the non-health side?
The Chair: Lynn at the back will be the clerk on the non-health side.
Thank you very much. Have a good weekend.
The committee adjourned at 1606.