L176H - Fri 4 Apr 1997 / Ven 4 avr 1997

CITY OF TORONTO ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LA CITÉ DE TORONTO

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Report continued from volume G.

1605

CITY OF TORONTO ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LA CITÉ DE TORONTO

Continuing consideration of Bill 103, An Act to replace the seven existing municipal governments of Metropolitan Toronto by incorporating a new municipality to be known as the City of Toronto / Projet de loi 103, Loi visant à remplacer les sept administrations municipales existantes de la communauté urbaine de Toronto en constituant une nouvelle municipalité appelée la cité de Toronto.

The Acting Chair (Mr Bruce Crozier): NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cadorna Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cadorna Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This motion shall be deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caesar Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caesar Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This motion shall be deferred.

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): Point of order, Chair: I heard you wistfully wondering whether this was the last one and I think it's important for the people to know that we are just at the C-a-f part of this exercise. We've completed the A streets and the B streets, but we're only barely into C in the alphabet. Thank you, Mr Chair.

The Acting Chair: Thank you to the member for London Centre. I'm only an hour into my time and I didn't know I was sounding wistful already.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cafon Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cafon Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry?

Interjection: Carried.

Interjection: Carried.

The Acting Chair: Carried.

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): No.

The Acting Chair: I had it carried before the --

Hon Mr Leach: I'm challenging. We're going to challenge it.

Interjections.

The Acting Chair: But the Speaker wasn't here to hear what I did not hear. I did not hear a no before I said "carried" and handed it back to the clerk. I'm sorry.

Interjections.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caines Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caines Avenue living in the urban area."

Hon Mr Leach: Point of order: I'm challenging the rule of the Chair. I maintain that there was a no.

Hon Noble Villeneuve (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, minister responsible for francophone affairs): There was more than one no.

Hon Mr Leach: There was more than one no.

Interjections.

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and The Islands): What's your point? There were two noes.

The Acting Chair: If you'll give me a minute to explain this to the minister. I made no ruling. I merely stated that the motion be carried. I heard that and I said "carried." I had not heard a no before that. I don't know who else in this House can tell what I did or did not hear.

Hon Mr Leach: But I think others in this House can state what they said.

The Acting Chair: Minister, I'm being as fair as I can be. Frankly, Minister, it was you who said no and frankly if you hadn't been carrying on a conversation across the floor, you may have been able to say no more quickly.

Hon Mr Leach: I'm challenging the rule of the chair.

The Acting Chair: The minister has challenged my ruling, so we'll call for the Speaker.

The committee rose and requested a ruling of the Speaker.

The Acting Chair: Speaker, the committee has risen and we've brought you in for a challenge to the Chair, that challenge being on a motion.

Interjection: Pray be seated.

The Speaker (Hon Chris Stockwell): Thank you.

The Acting Chair: I asked, "Shall the motion be carried?" I heard "carried" and heard nothing else until I said "carried," after which I heard a no.

Hon Mr Leach: Point of order.

The Speaker: The challenge was made by?

Interjections: The minister.

The Speaker: Minister.

Hon Mr Leach: There was a no. I said "no." There was a carried, a no --

Interjections.

Hon Mr Leach: But that doesn't call the vote.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Member for Kingston and The Islands, I want to hear the point of order. Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Hon Mr Leach: In my estimation it only takes one no to get the vote called. There was a no, and I said "no."

Interjection: After it had already carried.

Interjection: Point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: I'll be back. Just a second. I'll go to Renfrew North.

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): The point at issue is that the Chair of the committee put the question. The Chair, the umpire whose decision it is to make, said he heard no negative before he made the ruling, before he passed the question. It seems to me, looking at our standing orders, there was a time in this place when we could challenge. Those rules were changed a few years ago.

The question that it seems to me is before the assembly now is very simply this: Does the umpire under these rules -- and standing order 13 is the one that I'm looking at -- continue to have the authority to make the judgements. I listened very carefully. The Chair put the question and, most importantly, the Chair said he heard no "no," and on the basis of what the Chair heard, he moved on. I don't know how there is anything relevant beyond what the Chair said he heard in this instance. I'll go to the chief government whip.

The Speaker: Thank you.

Mr David Turnbull (York Mills): It seems to me that yesterday a similar situation occurred when the member for London Centre rose and indicated that she had in fact voted and there was a ruling in the affirmative.

The Speaker: Member for Oakwood.

Mr Mike Colle (Oakwood): We on the side have been monitoring and listening. We heard no "no" from the other side. It's especially important to remember that it's the minister who's making this challenge. This is the same member who did not hear 400,000 noes from the people --

The Speaker: That isn't even close to being in order. I've got to caution all members. I'm here to hear points of order. That's not a point of order. In fact, if all you're trying to do is create disorder in the House, I would ask you to speak to the point of order. I said I would go to the member for St Catharines-Brock after.

Mr Frank Klees (York-Mackenzie): That's the whole point of this exercise.

The Speaker: Member for -- I know where you're from, but I just can't remember.

Mr Tom Froese (St Catharines-Brock): As you know, this session has been very loud and very debated and sometimes you can hear and sometimes you can't. Sometimes you can hear everything else, but I had said "no."

Mr Gilles Pouliot (Lake Nipigon): What I personally fear, and I was here, with the incident is that we don't deteriorate in "he said" and "he said the opposite" by virtue of the very partisanship that we indulge in this constitutional monarchy of ours.

What is very important, with respect, is not to lose the issue. The Chair was most consistent and deliberate. What happened is that they were asleep at the switch. The Chair, non-partisan ruled that he indeed heard no negative, nothing to the contrary and said "carried," and the tapes will attest to this. I thank you, Mr Speaker.

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Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): I don't envy the position you're in. I would like to speak to the process of appealing a discretionary decision by the Chair. This is not a decision based on precedent, on parliamentary authorities, on standing orders. It's based on the discretion of the Chair, what the Chair heard and an honourable member in the chair exercising that discretion.

I'm not sure where in fact you have leeway to make a decision different from the Chair. I would suggest to you there have been occasions in which the Chair at the time, when challenged by a member saying, "Mr Speaker, he didn't hear me" or "Mr Speaker, I said" as the Chair was beginning to move on, has said: "I'm sorry. You're right, I didn't hear you," and with discretion reverted in the process. There have been other occasions where the Chair has said: "I'm sorry. I was listening very carefully. I heard no such thing and I'm moving on." In a sense, it cuts both ways. The Chair at the time must use their discretion and the chairs have been using their discretion to revert when challenged or to say, "No, I'm sorry, I'm going to proceed."

I don't see an easy way for the Speaker of the assembly to supplant their judgement on an event that happened when they weren't in the chamber for the discretion of the Chair of the committee at the time. When we're not dealing with a question of law, when we're not dealing with a question of interpretation of standing orders, when we're not dealing with a question of parliamentary authority, we're dealing with what we heard.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): It's a matter of opinion. "It's in my opinion," he said.

Ms Lankin: In the opinion of the Chair and the discretion of the Chair, despite what members are saying now, the Chair believed that he listened attentively and heard no negative, that he provided an ample opportunity and then proceeded based on that. Thank you very much.

The Speaker: The minister responsible for privatization.

Hon Rob Sampson (Minister without Portfolio [Privatization]): We'll get that one of these days. To this point, I think it's important to understand that during the proceedings a few minutes ago when the Chair was moving the motion, as you can probably expect at various times throughout the last while the noise level in this chamber has been up and down. I would put it to you that at that point in time there were other discussions being held at that time.

But I think what we're asking is that the Chair in his decision, and now having petitioned that decision to you, consider a precedent that we actually saw in this House on April 2 that was referred to earlier by one of the members here who spoke to this point -- I can't remember which one -- when in fact it was on a government motion that was being considered. Hansard refers to the Chair at that time saying: "Is it the wish of the committee that this government motion carry? I declare the motion carried," at which time a member opposite said, "I said no." The Deputy Chair at that time said; "I didn't hear you. I'm sorry," and then proceeded to put the question again: "All those in favour say `aye.' All those opposed say `nay'," and then made his decision based upon what he had heard at that time.

I think that is a precedent that we are asking the Chair to consider when in fact he in his wisdom decided that he did not hear the gentleman from this side, the minister say no. I in fact did hear the minister say no. I indeed did not say no, but I did hear him say no. I would ask that the Speaker, in consideration of the petition to him, consider the precedent that we have in fact had on this very bill in this very House two days ago.

The Speaker: The Minister for Municipal Affairs.

Hon Mr Leach: All we're requesting is that the question be put again.

The Speaker: Minister of Agriculture.

Hon Mr Villeneuve: Mr Speaker, I, in a previous Parliament, had the very high privilege of occupying both those chairs and being challenged from time to time. I must tell you I was in the House. It was at a point in time when some very high-profile municipal politicians were making their retreat from the galleries here. I did say no. I thought sure I heard some negative from this side. There was a lot of commotion. I appreciate what the Chair of the committee of the whole goes through when there's a lot of commotion, a lot of noise. Yes, you can and you could, quite easily. But I feel very sure that I did say no and I heard some noes.

The Speaker: The member for Ottawa Centre.

Mr Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre): While everyone is sharing their views on what they saw happen, I indeed did hear the minister say no. However, it was on the second portion of asking the question. On the first one, "Is it the wish this be carried?" there was a voice vote, "Carried," pause, "Carried," and at that point it's my recollection the minister did say no, perhaps assuming it was the first question being asked. But at that point it's my understanding that it had passed and that was the decision of the Chair.

The Speaker: Thank you very much. I appreciate all the input from all the members. I think it would be appropriate to take a 30-minute recess to review the submissions.

The House recessed from 1627 to 1716.

The Speaker: Thank you to the members for your submissions on that point of order. I appreciate the time it took and they were certainly helpful. I have taken the unusual step of reviewing the tape of the vote on the amendment in question. I had the technicians turn the background noise up in order to be able to hear, to enable me to have the best appreciation for what occurred. I have to say to this House that what is on the tape could not be any more clear. The Chair of the committee put the question and no dissenting voice was heard until after he declared it carried. On a question put, the Chair actively listens for that dissenting voice in order to determine whether a voice vote is required. The Chair heard no dissenting voice. I could hear no dissenting voice on the tape.

I have no choice but to uphold the ruling of the Chair. If the committee of the whole has taken a decision through inadvertence that the majority did not intend, it is open to the committee to reverse that decision with unanimous consent. Thank you.

House in committee of the whole.

Hon David Johnson (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet, Government House Leader): Mr Chair, in view of the Speaker's ruling, then, and I think the members opposite having gone through the last 1,200 or 1,500 amendments which are, as we all know, precisely the same except for one different street name in there, it is pretty clear what the will of the House, the will of the committee of the whole, the will of all of the members, would have been on that particular item. The Speaker's ruling has indicated that he could not discern a no vote on the tape, but it's pretty clear that we had some 1,200 or 1,500 -- I don't know what we're up to now -- similar situations with similar noes, certainly what the will of this House would be. I would ask that there be unanimous consent that this matter, that particular item be reopened and we put the question again on that particular item.

The Chair (Mr Gilles E. Morin): Just give me a few seconds.

Do we have unanimous consent to retake the vote on the motion that referred to Cafon Court? There's no consent.

We will now deal with an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caines Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caines Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry?

Hon David Johnson: On a point of order, Mr Chair: This amendment is purporting to add a new subsection, 24(4), but as we all know at this point, the previous NDP amendment has already been passed. It was just passed -- the Speaker has made a ruling on that -- and so it did add subsection 24(4). I would submit to you that as a result this amendment and the remaining 7,000 or 8,000 or however many we've got left, however many streets there are, are out of order. If there is no section there, then one can add that section. However, if there is already a section there with that number, which there is as we speak now because it has been passed, one can amend that particular section, one can delete that section, one could delete that section and then add something else, but one cannot add a section that already exists. At this point in time this section does exist because the previous amendment has been approved.

The motion is very clear. It says, "I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection...." It does not say that the bill be amended by revising or deleting or anything else. It says that the bill be amended by adding a subsection. Mr Chair, that subsection already exists; therefore, this amendment is out of order because it cannot be added because it already exists. I ask for your ruling in that regard, Mr Chair.

Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): Mr Chair, on this point: I obviously understand the argument that the government House leader is making. Let me say to you that I believe it should not be adopted because these amendments have been drafted, first of all, in exactly the way in which the precedents, as we understand them, are to be, which is that you draft each amendment as if the previous one did not exist. You do them in a way that if in fact this amendment were to carry, then automatically, in the writing of it, it would be 24(5). This is the understanding that we were given in drafting these and in checking them with legislative counsel, that in fact you have to draft them in this way, as if the previous amendments were non-existent, because each amendment is seeking to amend an existing section in the bill, not a previous amendment.

An amendment cannot be drafted in a way to amend, on the face of it, a previous amendment that's also being presented. An amendment can only be drafted to amend an existing section of the bill. Therefore, every single amendment has to be checked against that rule.

Then there is a process, which has been followed in this place, in this Legislative Assembly, as is in every other parliament, that the clerks go through and renumber the amendments based on the final content of the bill, based on what amendments in fact have been adopted by the time that the bill goes on from this stage to the next stage. That, I think, is the proper construction, the proper way in which this approach has been taken many, many times. So I think that the government House leader is wrong on this one.

Hon David Johnson: I would submit again that it may well be that it would be convenient if the next one was renumbered to read subsection 24(5), but that's not how it's presented. It is presented as subsection 24(4) and the fact remains that subsection 24(4) already exists, already is there and therefore cannot be added. It can be revised or deleted or whatever, but it cannot be added.

The Chair: I will take a recess for about 10 minutes. I shall be back.

The committee recessed from 1730 to 1745.

The Chair: The issue at hand is that since one amendment has now carried which adds a subsection 24(4), the subsequent amendments are rendered out of order since there is now a subsection 24(4) in the bill. It has been a long-standing practice in this House that editorial renumbering is done by legislative counsel under the authority of standing order 138(b), which reads as follows:

"The office of the legislative counsel shall...revise, print and put marginal notes on all public and private bills and generally be responsible for the correctness of all such bills in their various stages."

This is the very situation that is contemplated by that standing order. I therefore find that the amendment is in order.

Hon David Johnson: Mr Chair, thank you for your ruling, but I do challenge that ruling.

The Chair: I will suspend the proceedings and contact the Speaker.

The committee rose and requested a ruling of the Speaker.

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The Speaker: Government House leader.

Hon David Johnson: There was a ruling that you made previously, not too long ago, involving Cafon Court I think it is I believe in the city of Etobicoke, whereby an NDP amendment, one of some 8,000 or 9,000, each of which references either a different street or a different lake or a different stadium or a different island or a different industrial zone, inside or outside of Metropolitan Toronto, which one of our members --

Interjections.

The Speaker: I appreciate the interjections. It's points of order. You will in fact be given an opportunity, if you wish, to make your submissions.

Interjection.

The Speaker: The member for Lake Nipigon, I'll preside. Thank you.

Hon David Johnson: Each of which, I must say, one of our members calculated based on a total cost to run this House of $250,000 a day. It would cost about $1,000 --

The Speaker: Government House leader, the point of order, please.

Hon David Johnson: That amendment, having been carried, does add subsection (4) to section 24 of the bill. The next amendment, which has just been put, which I've asked for the Chair and subsequently yourself to rule on, also purports to add, and the key word here is "add", subsection (4) to section 24.

It's certainly been my experience, and I suspect yours through many years in government, that if there is an existing section, an existing subsection, as there now is in this bill because subsection (4) section 24 has now been officially passed, then one can revise that subsection, one can delete that subsection, but one cannot add something that is already there. That is the source of my query as to whether this in fact is in order.

Now, in the ruling, the Chair of the committee of the whole has quoted section 138 of the standing orders, part (b), which references the ability of the office of the legislative counsel to "revise, print and put marginal notes on all public and private bills and generally be responsible for the correctness of all such bills in their various stages."

That would seem to me to be of a minor administrative nature and involve tidying up the bills. What we're talking about here in my submission is the adding of a whole new clause that already exists, and the key word again here, in the operative section is, "I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding," -- adding -- "the following subsection" and it's already there.

So I would submit that section (b), being a minor and in detail cleaning up of whatever is there already, should not pertain to adding something that's already there. I would ask for your ruling in that regard, to rule that this amendment is out of order and not only this amendment but the subsequent 7,000 streets and islands and lakes which are yet to come also out of order.

Mr Wildman: The government House leader is attempting to make a mountain out of a molehill. The Chair ruled based on rule 138(b), clearly. All of us who have had experience in this House and committees know that when amendments are put to bills and are passed, it leads to a renumbering of the subsequent sections and any subsequent amendments that might be put in passing. That is in fact an editorial revision which is carried out on a routine basis by legislative counsel in cleaning up the legislation for final printing.

That's the way it's always been done and if the government House leader were correct in his assertion, it would simply be a way of precluding any further amendments. All the government would have to do, on any particular section, is move an amendment initially and would then preclude any other amendments that had already been filed, but were not numbered, taking into account the amendment that had been passed, would rule them out of order. That would be patently ridiculous. All of us know it would be patently ridiculous and I suspect the government House leader himself knows that.

The fact is the Chair of the committee of the whole House has ruled properly. It's an unfortunate situation that his ruling was challenged and I think it's incumbent upon you, as Speaker, to uphold the ruling of the Chair.

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Fort William): I would just add that I think the clarity of the decision rendered by the Chair of the committee is evident. If we were to think in terms of a committee at which there are NDP amendments and Liberal amendments that would create the same section and subsection, as indeed there undoubtedly are if we were able to get to the set of Liberal amendments on this bill, they only become revised in the event that both of those amendments were to pass.

I would think that the whole issue of revision of the numbers and the numbering of them, as the standing order indicates, is done by the Clerk on passage of amendments to the bill. In terms of the sheer volume being a problem in terms of the revision process, I think volume would only become a problem if it is the government's intent to pass significantly more of the amendments before us.

The Speaker: The minister for privatization.

Hon Mr Sampson: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I knew you'd get it.

I want to rise on this point to discuss a few issues that I think might be relevant, and I hope are relevant, to this topic.

One is that clearly we've seen so far, and I can't remember what the number is, over 1,000 -- a few number -- of these particular amendments which are substantially the same wording with the exception of the change of the street. These have all been tabled by the NDP.

I think it's important to note in the wording of these amendments that they in fact presented these amendments collectively together, so they knew that they would be considered together. These are not amendments that frankly in committee may come up subsequent to the hearing of amendments originally tabled. Clearly they understood the full content and the full weight and the full purpose of these amendments when they were drafted by themselves in this very House.

In that regard, I would say to you they clearly believed that there was potential for one amendment to be accepted and potentially all the others not, or they had clearly meant that all of them would be accepted, in which case I would put to you, sir, that they would have numbered them such and worded them such that one was an amendment of an amendment of an amendment, or that they were all bundled into one amendment.

I'm trying to draw your attention to the fact that the intent here, I don't think, was to have us consider these as a bundle but as separately. Therefore, if they're considered separately, the consideration of a subsequent amendment to the section would be not in order because it would be substantially altering the content and the thrust of that amended section of the bill.

I want to draw your attention to the comment that was raised by the Chair in his order. He was referring to 138(b) which deals with the revision printing and marginal notes on public and private bills. I believe you know that as it relates to marginal notes, the reference there is not in regard to the numbering of a bill but to the notes that are on the side of a bill on each section, drawing attention to the public what is considered by that particular --

Interjection.

The Speaker: The member for Cochrane South, come to order.

Hon Mr Sampson: -- drawing the consideration by the reader of the bill to what the content of that particular section might be. For instance, in the very bill we're considering now, the marginal note for 24 is "regulations," telling us that section 24 will deal with regulations.

The reference to marginal notes here, I put to you, is not the numbering of a section but the content of that section. There is nothing in the wording of 138(b) that gives the office of the legislative counsel the authority to renumber. If that were the case, I would put to you that it would have said "renumber." "Revised" means frankly to change the bill in accordance with the decisions of this House. "Printing" is quite clear, the printing of the bill as subsequently revised. As I put to you, the marginal note issue is not referring to the changing of the numbering or the sequencing of the items of the bill, but clearly the words on the side of the page. There is nothing here that says the office of the legislative counsel has the authority to renumber a particular clause or section of a bill. That must be done as part of the motions and the amendments that are put to this House or to any other committee for consideration.

1800

I say in summing up, it's not clear to me in reviewing what has transacted in this House, since we started reviewing these particular amendments, that it was the purpose of the movers of these particular amendments, the NDP, to have them considered in bulk. They clearly wanted them to be considered separately and so they were prepared to have some accepted and some not accepted. One has now been decided by this House to have been accepted. I would say, then, subsequent amendments referring to this very subsection that is now in fact in the bill are not in order because they indeed would be amendments to amendments, and as you know, Mr Speaker, amendments to amendments must be considered first before the original amendment motion.

The Speaker: Thank you. The member for Fort -- no, for Dovercourt.

Mr Silipo: I know it's been a long day, Speaker.

The reason why the amendment that we have presented in this particular amendment is drafted with section 24(4) is because we have followed the rules and the long-standing practice of this place and others which indicate that when you are placing amendments you are required to draft them against the bill as it exists at that point in time, because that is the only reasonable construction and the only reasonable way in which multiple amendments, whether they are coming from one party or one member or whether they are coming from a multitude of parties, can be dealt with.

It is at the end of that process, when the committee or the House, as the case may be, has made a decision on what amendments it is going to make to an existing piece of legislation and passes the bill as amended that then the job of the clerk as envisioned in rule 138(b), a very important function not a very superficial one, as the government House leader would have you believe, but a very important one kicks in, which is to, "Revise, print and" -- yes -- "put marginal notes" -- we're not arguing here about marginal notes -- "on all public and private bills" -- and this is the other important -- "and generally be responsible for the correctness of all such bills in their various stages."

I would say to you, Speaker, that what has happened is completely within the rules as set out in the standing orders and certainly as set out in precedents and practice of the Legislative Assembly and its committees, which is that amendments are drafted against the bill as it exists. Once the decisions are made about which amendments are approved or not, then there is a renumbering, if that is required. Clearly in this case that would be required. If subsequent amendments to the one that has already been approved, 24(4), would be passed, then a renumbering would be required to subsequent amendments, and if not, then it would stand as it is.

Mr Conway: I want to just make, on the point that's been raised by the honourable member and spoken to by several members, some observations in that respect myself and summarize what I believe has happened and where we are, because I do think this is germane to the ruling that you're being asked to make.

We have an important piece of government legislation before the House affecting over two million people in Metropolitan Toronto, Bill 103. We are being guided through this process by a time allocation motion which the House passed on January 29, 1997. We are at the committee of the whole stage and amendments are being proposed. A few moments ago an opposition amendment carried, and as I understand it the effect of the amendment which the committee has now carried is essentially the following. I don't know how many people had an opportunity to look at this, but I've just in recent moments had a chance to reflect on this, and I think as we go forward we all of us ought to know what it is we have done and where we are.

This committee of the whole a few moments ago passed the following motion that essentially says that the regulatory section of this important bill -- the committee of the whole has approved an amendment that says for those Ontarians living at Cafon Court in the city of Etobicoke, the rules of this bill's application will vary in this respect, because here's what the committee of the whole has passed:

"Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cafon Court" -- in the city of Etobicoke -- "living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of" -- said street --

The Speaker: Order. I just need to relate this back to the point of order that's at hand, which is, as I understand, 138(b).

Mr Conway: Listen, I've got some experience in these matters and I just want the House to know what it has done. We've passed in this committee an amendment that says there will be a group of people in the city of Etobicoke who will be treated in a very special way. The special circumstances are for purposes of this debate relevant in one particular respect. There's a 60-day period, as I read this amendment, that the minister shall provide notice of a public hearing; there's a 30-day period. All I'm saying is that as I read the amendment that the committee has passed, if you live on Cafon Court, you're going to be treated specially --

Interjection.

Mr Conway: No, hear me out. You're going to be treated specially and there's going to be from this day forward not less than 60 days before the provisions of the amendment that the committee has just passed are met.

I come back to, with that in mind, the committee has passed that amendment. Now I've got a time allocation motion that is --

Interjection.

Mr Conway: Trust me, this is not trivial, just so you know what we've done. We've amended the bill in a critical way as it applies in terms of its application to one part of Metropolitan Toronto. As I read the amendment for it's application in Cafon Court, it is going to be at least two months --

The Speaker: Member for Renfrew North, I appreciate you standing on this. I get the sense you're in the point of debating the amendment or at least explaining the amendment, and I appreciate that, but I need to hear the point of order which was brought up by the government House leader. If you could move directly to that I'd appreciate it.

Mr Conway: I'm happy to do that. That's my reading of the impact of the amendment that the committee has passed, and I've got in my hand a time allocation motion that is governing the rest of this process. The committee was asked a short time ago to give consent to reopen the question. The committee denied consent. As I understand it, assuming no other change, this bill will now proceed and will be reported with this Cafon Court amendment intact.

The Speaker: That's correct.

Mr Conway: We will then under the January 29, 1997, time allocation motion go forward for one sessional day and another question will be put, "Shall the bill be read a third time?" We can't undo the Cafon Court amendment without consent. I'm not aware of any provisions under our rules that will allow that.

I just want to make the point for the House that the House in committee of the whole has made a decision. It is a significant decision with significant --

The Speaker: Member for Renfrew North, I appreciate the point you're making. As I understand it, the point you're making I think is kind of an interesting point of order, to be quite honest, and it may have far-reaching impacts on this bill. I understand that. But the problem I have is it's got nothing to do with what I'm doing here. I appreciate your input. I appreciate your insight, and as usual it's interesting, but I think I've heard enough from both sides. I would like to take a five-minute recess, review this and report back.

The House recessed from 1810 to 1818.

The Speaker: Thank you for your submissions, to the members from all sides of the House. I've reviewed the submissions. Let me just say that this practice, I think, would be considered accepted in the standing orders. To set this down as far as precedent or practice is concerned, you could find, since we started meeting here as the province of Ontario, literally thousands of examples of renumbering. Without any discussion or debate, I will uphold the ruling of the Chair.

House in committee of the whole.

Interjections.

The Chair: I won't accept any exchanges between the floor. If you want to talk to each other, do it outside.

I will reintroduce the NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation"

Ms Lankin: On a point of order, Mr Chair. I don't believe there is a quorum.

The Chair: Would you please verify if there is quorum.

Clerk at the Table (Ms Lisa Freedman): A quorum is not present, Chair.

The Chair ordered the bells rung.

Clerk at the Table: Quorum is now present, Chair.

The Chair: "I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caines Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caines Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cairncross Place living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cairncross Place living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cairns Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cairns Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

I just want to remind the members that when there is a vote and you stand, you should be in your seat.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cairnside Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cairnside Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caithness Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caithness Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

1830

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calais Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calais Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caldari Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caldari Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calderon Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calderon Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calderstone Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calderstone Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caldow Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caldow Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion should say "aye." All those opposed to the motion should say "nay." I declare the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

1840

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caldy Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caldy Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Ms Shelley Martel (Sudbury East): On a point of order, Mr Chair: In the interest of time I will withdraw the next amendment.

The Chair: Caledonia.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caledonia Park Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caledonia Park Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caledonia Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caledonia Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caley Terrace living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caley Terrace living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calibre Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calibre Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calico Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calico Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

1850

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Callender Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Callender Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Callowhill Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Callowhill Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calm Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calm Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calora Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calora Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calstock Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calstock Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

1900

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calthorpe Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calthorpe Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calumet Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calumet Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill" --

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

-- "be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calverley Trail living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calverley Trail living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Ms Martel: On a point of order, Mr Chair. In the interest of time, I will withdraw the next amendment.

The Chair: NDP motion:

Interjections.

The Chair: The member for Lake Nipigon. The member for Sudbury. The member for Sudbury East. The member for Simcoe East. Minister. The member for Lake Nipigon. Order. Order. I won't accept any exchange between the two floors. I'm reading amendments and pay attention to it, please.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:"

Interjections.

The Chair: Minister. The member for Lake Nipigon. I just asked you to refrain from exchanging words between yourselves. Would you please --

Interjections.

The Chair: Please.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calvin Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calvin Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

Interjection: Dispense.

The Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Calvington Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Calvington Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

1910

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camarel Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camarel Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

The Second Deputy Chair (Mr Bert Johnson): This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camberley Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camberley Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,"

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order, please.

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camberwell Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:"

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order, please. Order.

"`1. The minister has given notice" --

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order.

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camberwell Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee that this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camborne Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camborne Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cambrai Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cambrai Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cambrian Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cambrian living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote stands deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cambridge Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cambridge Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is this the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

1920

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camden Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camden Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camelot Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camelot Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cameo Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cameo Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

Ms Martel: On a point of order, Mr Chair: In the interests of time I will withdraw the next amendment.

The Second Deputy Chair: This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cameron Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cameron Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote stands deferred.

Ms Martel: On a point of order, Mr Chair: In the interests of time I will withdraw the next amendment.

The Second Deputy Chair: I want to ask the member for Sudbury East, is it Cameron Cr or Cameron Crescent that you're withdrawing?

Ms Martel: I'm assuming that Cr is also Crescent.

The Second Deputy Chair: Sometimes some people consider it a short form. But it's Cr that you're withdrawing?

Ms Martel: Yes.

The Second Deputy Chair: It is done.

Mr Wildman: Some people think cur is a male dog.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order. As long as you're not calling each other that, it's fine, but I don't want that to be going back and forth. There is no talking back and forth. You're in your seats. You're to listen attentively to what I'm reading and I don't want that talk back and forth. I want order on both sides of this House.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cameron Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cameron Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote stands deferred.

Ms Martel: On a point of order, Mr Chair: In the interests of time I will withdraw the next amendment.

Mr Bart Maves (Niagara Falls): Point of order, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: No. I want to rule on this one and then I'm going to get back to you. I want to be sure I'm following with the member for Sudbury East. You want to withdraw the residents of Cameron Lake? So be it.

I want to recognize the member for Niagara on a point of order.

Mr Maves: That amendment was withdrawn because of time or because it was a lake rather than a street?

The Second Deputy Chair: I don't know. Did you want to add anything to why it's withdrawn?

Ms Martel: No.

Mrs McLeod: It was left out of Mike's omnibus list.

Ms Lankin: On a point of order, Mr Chair: I don't believe there's a quorum.

The Second Deputy Chair: I'll check for you. Would you please check and see if there is a quorum present in the House right now.

Clerk at the Table: A quorum is present, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cameron Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cameron Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote stands deferred.

1930

This also is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camilla Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camilla Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

Mr Pouliot: Point of order: I don't believe the House is duly constituted. Quorum call, please.

The Second Deputy Chair: I'll ask the person at the table to check if there's a quorum. Would you please check to see if there's a quorum?

Clerk at the Table: A quorum is not present, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair ordered the bells rung.

Clerk at the Table: A quorum is now present, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camlac Place living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camlac Place living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this House this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote stands deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camor Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camor Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Campania Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Campania Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this House this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Campbell Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Campbell Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

Ms Martel: Mr Chair, In the interests of time, I will withdraw the next amendment.

The Second Deputy Chair: Listen, I don't mind reading it if you don't want to.

Mr Pouliot: You're doing a fine job.

Ms Martel: It's up to you, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: Withdrawn.

Mr Pouliot: We missed you this afternoon.

The Second Deputy Chair: I was here this afternoon.

Mr Ernie Hardeman (Oxford): Mr Chair, on a point of order: In process, I was just wondering how I would identify the one that was withdrawn.

Ms Martel: It's all in the package that we gave you.

Mr Hardeman: I don't have the package. I'm not sure how I would identify the amendment that was withdrawn without some identification as to what that amendment would be.

The Second Deputy Chair: I would explain to you that it was Campbell Avenue and it was an identical one to the one that was before you. Since you aren't, I won't.

Mrs McLeod: Since he wasn't in his seat.

Ms Martel: Point of order, Mr Chair: If I could be helpful to the members, they could check with their House leader. They were given two copies of all of these amendments and they could follow along, as we are, if they really wanted to know what was happening.

The Second Deputy Chair: We appreciate the suggestion. Thank you very much.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:"

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order, please. Order. Would the member for Lake Nipigon come to order. Would the member for Hamilton East come to order. Would the member for Quinte in his wrong seat come to order.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Campbell Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Campbell Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

1940

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is defeated.

Mrs Boyd: Really cute trick, Mr Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camperdown Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camperdown Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

I want to just stop. I've been thinking for a moment and I want to address the member for London Centre. You made a comment. I either have to know the reason for it or I'm going to have to ask you to withdraw it.

Mrs Boyd: The reason for it was you turned to the government and said, "Will those in favour of the vote, say `aye.'" And then you turned to us and said, "All those against the motion say `nay.'" Quite frankly, I think you are well aware that people look to the Chair as a signal for what the situation is. It was a partisan action.

The Second Deputy Chair: I want to address that because I look with my eyes and I listen with my ears and I don't get the two confused, because they can be going in different directions. So sometimes I will listen to something over here, even though I'm looking in this direction, and vice versa. I do not accept your allegation that it is a trick and I would ask you to withdraw that.

Mrs Boyd: Certainly, Mr Chair, I withdraw.

The Second Deputy Chair: Thank you.

I will endeavour to be as fair and reasonable as I can. I am not about to have any tricks or anything else. I don't indulge in those kinds of things. But I do have a very difficult task. We have gone through 26 of these identical motions and if I make a mistake, I'm willing to try to fix it or to apologize or do anything else that I can. But I don't indulge in those tricks and I want that to be very, very clear.

The Chair recognizes the member for Lake Nipigon. Why are you standing?

Mr Pouliot: On a point of order.

The Second Deputy Chair: Yes, the Chair recognizes you on a point of order.

Mr Pouliot: I don't think I would do your job for any money and you're to be commended. This is also stamina --

The Second Deputy Chair: Your point of order?

Mr Pouliot: The point of order is this: You have mentioned, with respect, that the amendments were identical. Each and every amendment stands solitaire. To some, they may appear to be webbed or meshed, but they are not. Every amendment is an amendment by itself.

The Second Deputy Chair: So the point is?

Mr Pouliot: The point was made this afternoon. Thank you.

The Second Deputy Chair: That is not a point of order.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camrose Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camrose Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of the committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Camwood Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Camwood Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Ms Martel: Point of order, Mr Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: The Chair recognizes the member for Sudbury East on a point of order.

Ms Martel: In the interests of time, I will withdraw the next amendment.

Mr Jim Flaherty (Durham Centre): On that point of order.

The Second Deputy Chair: The Chair recognizes the member for Durham Centre.

Mr Flaherty: I listened to the member opposite say that in the interests of time, she wishes to withdraw that motion on behalf of the NDP. In fact, that motion mentions a place that is not a place and I'd ask you to rule it our of order, another machine-produced document wasting taxpayers' money from the NDP opposition.

The Second Deputy Chair: My ruling, the member for Durham Centre, is that it is not a point of order. The member for Sudbury East, it is withdrawn.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canadian Place living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canadian Place living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

1950

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canadian Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canadian Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This morning or last night, one time when I was here, we had some flowers. I have a particular allergy to pollens. I know that it's unintentional and so on. There's another one. If you wouldn't mind, I don't know how far away, but even in the lounge wouldn't be too bad. I'd appreciate that. Thanks ever so much. I think I'll proceed. The other member will be back, and if there's a vote before he is, I'll hold off on it.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canadine Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canadine Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Everyone is back. Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canarctic Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canarctic Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." It's my opinion the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

Mr Flaherty: On a point of order, Mr Chair: The next motion is also an NDP motion, and again it is an example of a machine-produced amendment that repeats the name of the same street, Canarctic Drive, another example of the phenomenon known as "garbage in, garbage out." I'd ask that you rule it out of order, sir.

Mr Pouliot: Mr Chair?

The Second Deputy Chair: Is this on the same point of order?

Mr Pouliot: It is indeed.

The Second Deputy Chair: The Chair recognizes the member for Lake Nipigon on the same point of order.

Mr Pouliot: Thank you very kindly, Mr Chair. Simply put, if the people of Ontario knew about the $3 million that were spent --

The Second Deputy Chair: No, no.

Mr Pouliot: -- in refurbishing the Premier's office we would have a better duplicating machine.

The Second Deputy Chair: No, I'm sorry. I want to know the point --

Mr Pouliot: In the interests of time, we will withdraw the following motion.

The Second Deputy Chair: The member for Lake Nipigon --

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: I'm sorry. I'm addressing the member for Lake Nipigon. When I'm addressing you, I'd like to have your attention. That is not a point of order.

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Would the member for Lake Nipigon come to order.

I'm making my ruling to the member for Durham Centre. It is a point of order and this identical one is out of order.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canary Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canary Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

2000

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cancara Gate living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cancara Gate living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Candis Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Candis Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Candle Lite Way living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Candle Lite Way living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Candlewood Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Candlewood Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Candy Court Way living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Candy Court Way living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour please say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cane Grass Way living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order.

"`The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cane Grass Way living in the urban area.

"`The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it.

Mrs Boyd: Point of order, Mr Speaker: In the last amendment, as you went through you did not read the numbers out. It would help the members to follow if you would read the numbers out. You simply went down from paragraph to paragraph using words and not numbers.

The Second Deputy Chair: I'd like to address that. I had been reading the numbers and I had done it for 104 of them during one term and 82 another and a point came up about television and so on, so I was watching my television. I noticed that the Deputy Speaker was not using them, so I didn't. But it is a point of order. If you want me to say those numbers as they go down, then we should all be consistent and we'll do that all the time, or we'll try to, anyway.

Mrs Boyd: May I tell you that I really appreciate that you're attempting to deal with some of the criticisms that have been levelled. It is very important to read those numbers as you go down. I'm not aware of another Deputy Speaker not using those numbers and I can assure you that if I am in the House and those numbers aren't used, I will draw it to another Deputy Speaker's attention as well.

The Second Deputy Chair: This was the Deputy Speaker, not one of the deputy chairs. I've ruled on that. That's okay then?

Hon Mr Sampson: Mr Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: The Chair recognizes the minister from --

Hon Mr Sampson: Here we go again.

The Second Deputy Chair: No, no, I want to get the right part of this as well. I've been mixed up in Durham region; I don't want to do the same with Mississauga. The minister from Mississauga West.

Hon Mr Sampson: Mr Chair, we just heard from the opposition that they were concerned that we must be very clear about ordering and the numbers in an amendment. I thought we had a ruling from the Speaker that the orders and the numbers in an amendment weren't necessary and I was wondering whether or not we have an issue here that's being drawn to our attention that the opposition would like us to give serious consideration to all the numbers in the amendment, whether they be the main number or a subcomponent. If so, perhaps we should draw the Speaker's attention to that.

The Second Deputy Chair: I'll get a ruling on that if you just give me a minute.

2010

Hon Mr Sampson: Could you inform the chamber why we have some dead air space?

The Second Deputy Chair: As I understand it we're getting a ruling on your point of order. I'm getting some help on making a ruling on your point of order, because as you're aware if I'm wrong you can and might appeal it to the Speaker and that would take time away from the other thing. I think it's a good point and I like to be right if I can, and if I can't we'll go some other way, but I'd like to wait and get the right information.

I'd like to address the point of order from the member for Mississauga West. My ruling on your point of order is that the numbers from 1 to 5 going down the left-hand side are numbering the paragraphs, and I may choose to read them or may choose not to read them as I see fit. That is my ruling.

Mrs Boyd: I couldn't hear your ruling.

The Second Deputy Chair: I'm sorry. My ruling is that the numbers 1 through 5 down the left-hand side of this motion are paragraph numbers, and I can read them or not, depending on whether I want to. Because this contradicts my ruling to you a few minutes ago, I thought I should tell you that these paragraph numbers as well, the same thing that's over there, they're 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, they number the paragraphs, and they aren't significant. I do not have to read them or I can. Because you're saying that it helps you follow through, then I'll probably try to read them as much and as often as I can.

Are we ready to proceed?

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cane Grass Way living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cane Grass Way living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

2020

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canerouth Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canerouth Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canfield Place living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canfield Place living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canham Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canham Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canlish Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canlish Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canmore Boulevard living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canmore Boulevard living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Mr Chair: I wish to withdraw the next amendment because it has no street designation following the name "Canmotor."

The Second Deputy Chair: Okay. That is a point of order, and it's withdrawn.

Mr Flaherty: On a point of order, Mr Chair: I was going to ask you to rule that out of order because this machine-produced, garbage amendment simply refers to something called "Canmotor," not any identifiable place in the city of Toronto. I would ask, then, Chair, that you rule out of order the duplicate one that's with it called Canmotor Avenue, which is duplicitous and is a copy with the same street appellation as the one that has already been withdrawn by the member whose party continues to produce these garbage-in, garbage-out, computerized, machine-made amendments.

The Second Deputy Chair: Just a moment, please.

I'm addressing my ruling to the member for Durham Centre. Canmotor has been withdrawn. We are not on the one that you have requested to be ruled out of order yet, so that is not a point of order.

Mrs Boyd: I have a point of order, Mr Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: I'm sorry, I did tell you I'd get back to you and I almost went on without that, and I apologize. The Chair recognizes the member for London Centre on a point of order.

Mrs Boyd: I just want to assure you that we have marked the ones where there are errors. We have very faithfully all day been withdrawing those motions, because it is not appropriate for this committee to be spending time on motions that are not correct. I would remind you, Mr Chair, that we are under a time allocation motion. If we were in committee of the whole without a time allocation motion, we would be able to debate these things and there would be changes and revisions and amendments to amendments; because we're under this time allocation motion, we cannot. It is not unusual to find that there are errors in a motion that has been put forward and submitted.

The Second Deputy Chair: I understand, but that is not a point of order.

Mr Flaherty: On a point of order, Mr Chair: I'm pleased to hear from the member opposite that she has, with the assistance of her party members, identified every duplicate motion of the 13,000 or so. Would she please identify them now for the committee of the whole House so that they can all be withdrawn now to save the taxpayers of Ontario countless thousands of dollars. I'd ask that you make that ruling.

2030

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order. I want to address that. That is not a point of order. As I understand the rules, that could only be done with unanimous consent? There's no unanimous consent.

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order. Would the members please come to order. I have some important amendments to read that I want to get into the record. Order.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canmotor Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canmotor Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canning Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canning Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cannon Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cannon Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of the committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cannonbury Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cannonbury Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour say "aye." All those opposed say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

Mr Flaherty: Point of order, Mr Chair: Regretfully, I am obliged to rise once again, sir, because the New Democratic Party has again put forward amendments that are duplicitous. The next two amendments before you refer to the same streets and I'd ask that you rule them out of order and that you also make a ruling that all duplicitous amendments, all of the ones that have been filed by the party -- and the member says she has identified them -- that she identify them for the Chair in the House so that we will not continue to waste taxpayers' time on duplicitous motions.

Mrs Boyd: On that point of order, Mr Speaker: It's the same order, Mr Speaker.

The Second Deputy Chair: I will address some comments to the member for Durham Centre and despite my inclination I'm going to let the member for London Centre speak on the same point of order.

Mrs Boyd: Mr Speaker, the member is quite right; there is a duplication here. As I said earlier, as we go through these, we will withdraw any of the motions that do not have a street designation or are duplicates in any way. That's what we've been doing all day. It is not appropriate -- and you already ruled on it -- that there would have to be unanimous consent to go through and name all the ones we're going to withdraw. It's much faster to do that as we go. It will take much more time and the members of the government have been complaining now for several days about the length of time this is taking. It will take longer if we do not do it in an orderly fashion and do it as we go along.

The Second Deputy Chair: If there was some communication of passing that, then it wouldn't be an irritant.

My ruling on the point of order, to the member for Durham Centre, is that the one I have in front of me -- I can only rule on things now. I have in front of me one that I will have to read. If it wasn't proper, somebody would bring it to my attention, I would hope, and the next one and so on. But right now I have in front of me an amendment that is in order.

2040

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): The Conservative member was out of order.

The Second Deputy Chair: The member for Cochrane North is out of order.

An NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canongate Trail living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canongate Trail living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Mr Chair: This is a duplicated motion of the one we just passed. I'd like to withdraw it.

The Second Deputy Chair: That is a point of order.

Mr Flaherty: On this same point, Chair, there are many duplicates. I don't know why the NDP opposition didn't read their amendments before they filed them with the House. I don't know why the supporters in the Liberal Party did not read the amendments and are not following them clearly because they'd see these duplications. To save time, why can't the party opposite immediately list -- as the member for London Centre has said, she knows the duplicitous ones, she knows the duplications. Why can't she list them now for the sake of the House, so they do not waste the time of the House on these duplicitous amendments?

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: That is a point of order. The only remedy to it is unanimous consent, and if I read things right, we don't have that.

I wanted to address a comment to the member for Hamilton East. It is quite unparliamentary to shout out in this chamber. I shouldn't have to warn you.

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): I guess I'm the only one, Mr Speaker.

The Second Deputy Chair: Also, while I'm addressing you, I'd appreciate you not talking.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canso Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canso Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cantel Path living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cantel Path living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canterbury Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canterbury Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canterbury Place living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canterbury Place living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canterbury Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canterbury Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cantle Path living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cantle Path living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

2050

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canton Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canton Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canvarco Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canvarco Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

Mr Flaherty: Point of order.

Mrs Boyd: Point of order.

The Second Deputy Chair: The Chair recognizes the member for Durham Centre.

Mr Flaherty: Thank you, Chair. Regretfully, again, we're faced with the lack of care by the NDP opposition supported by the Liberals here in this House where the next motion, the next amendment, which they say they have reviewed, I suppose, because otherwise I'm sure they wouldn't present it to this House, doesn't refer to a street or a place or anywhere identifiable in the urban area, simply to something called Canyon. I'd ask that you rule it out of order.

The Second Deputy Chair: That is a point of order.

Mrs Boyd: We are prepared to withdraw it, Mr Chair. That is why I was saying, "Point of order."

The Second Deputy Chair: Canyon is out of order and we will proceed.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canyon Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canyon Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Canzone Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Canzone Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

2100

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Capella Starway living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Capella Starway living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Capri Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Capri Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Capella Starway living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied'" --

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Mr Chair: You're going the wrong way. We've already done Capella Starway. You should be on Capstan Court.

The Second Deputy Chair: Oh, the one in front of me said Capella Starway.

Mrs Boyd: Yes, but you had the wrong one in front of you. Somebody handed you the wrong one. We had already passed Capella Starway.

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: Order. I want to address the member for London Centre.

Interjections.

The Second Deputy Chair: It's five after 9, I've gone through about 65 of these and I'm getting a little irritated. I'd like to get on with this and make this ruling. I want to address the member for London Centre and I want the attention particularly --

Interjection.

The Second Deputy Chair: You will come to order.

Mr Len Wood: Sorry, Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: I accept your apology.

The second-last one I did was Capri Road. The last one I did was Capella Starway. The one I have in front of me now is Capstan Court. Now, what am I doing wrong?

Mrs Boyd: Excuse, Mr Chair, you repeated Capella Starway. I was just telling you that you had repeated Capella Starway and that we're on Capstan Court, that's all. I didn't want us to pass one twice.

The Second Deputy Chair: We're on Capstan Court now. Is that the right road, street, court?

Mrs Boyd: Court.

The Second Deputy Chair: By the way, that was my mistake. I got the wrong ones and I got them mixed up. I apologize for any mistakes that I make. I try my best. I have a very difficult situation. We're on two-hour shifts. I try to do this as expediently as I can, under very difficult circumstances. I'm up over 60 or 65, which is way, way low. I think I should be able to do one a minute, which would give us 120 of these through each two-hour shift, so I guess I apologize for not going faster.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Capstan Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Capstan Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Captain Hall Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Captain Hall Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

Mr Flaherty: On a point of order, Mr Chair: Once again, there's a problem with the shoddy work by the opposition in the preparation of their amendments. The next amendment refers to something called Captains Way and the one after that to something called Captains Way Court. The member for London Centre has assured the House that she's identified all of her party's mistakes, of which there are many, in these machine-produced amendments and she wants to save time in this House. She knows the order; she just made that clear to you. I ask, sir, that you ask the member to identify to the Chair which one of these motions refers to a legal place in the urban area, and if she can't, that you rule them both out order, seriatim.

The Second Deputy Chair: What's that word?

Mrs Boyd: One after the other.

The Second Deputy Chair: The reason I winced is that in the place I come from, we call that tandem.

I'm seeking your assurances that these are proper unless I hear otherwise.

Mrs Boyd: It's my information, Mr Chair, that there is a Captains Way and a Captains Way Court. Those of us who know subdivisions know that's not an unusual thing. That is my information.

The Second Deputy Chair: Thank you.

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Captains Way living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Captains Way living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the wish of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

2110

This is an NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Captains Way Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied'" --

Mr Steve Gilchrist (Scarborough East): On a point of order, Mr Chair: A moment ago you ruled on a point from my colleague from Durham Centre and in the rebuttal the member for London Centre indicated it was her understanding that in fact there was both a Captains Way and a Captains Way Court. Given that is a very blunt statement, a statement of fact, I wonder if the member opposite could be asked where she derives that information and cite the authority, because the street in question is in Scarborough. There is only one within the urban area. Under the standing orders it is illegal for us to consider the same question twice. It is the same street being referred to. It must be, because there is only one. Accordingly, under standing order 51, we cannot consider this amendment.

Mrs Boyd: Point of order, Mr Chair.

The Second Deputy Chair: No, it's not my way to take two things on a point of order. I'll address this first. I'm addressing the member for Scarborough East on a point of order. I'm taking these the best way I can, on the best information and so on, and my ruling on your point of order is that it's not a point of order. It's been ruled on before.

Mr Len Wood: Good evening.

The Second Deputy Chair: Are you here to participate? If you are, would you take your seat. You're standing between me and a member of this Legislature who is trying to get my attention so I can make a ruling.

Mrs McLeod: On a point of order, Mr Chairman: Since the member for Scarborough East has returned and is holding up the Perly guide, which he has sought to introduce into the Legislative Assembly as an authoritative resource, and may wish to use it in the future in order to delay the proceedings, which you are attempting to expedite as much as possible, we'd just like to recall that I believe it was at 3:32 am on Friday, which would have been April 3, the Speaker ruled that the resources that could be used as resources in the Legislative Assembly were the standing orders, Beauchesne and Erskine May, but not the Perly guide.

The Second Deputy Chair: That is not a point of order. I've already ruled on his.

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Captains Way Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Is it the request of this committee this motion carry? All those in favour, say "aye." All those opposed, say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

The First Deputy Chair (Ms Marilyn Churley): NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carabob Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carabob Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caracas Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caracas Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

2120

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caravan Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caravan Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cardell Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cardell Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cardiff Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cardiff Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4) --

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cardigan Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cardigan Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cardinal Place living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cardinal Place living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Madam Chair: The next motion, Cardwell, has no street designation. We would like to withdraw it.

The First Deputy Chair: Withdrawn.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cardwell Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cardwell Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

2130

NDP motion, subsection 24(4) --

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cardy Place living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cardy Place living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carew Gate living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carew Gate living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carey Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carey Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carhartt Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carhartt Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Cariboo Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Cariboo Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

2140

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caribou Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caribou Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carisbrooke Square living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carisbrooke Square living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carlisle Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carlisle Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carl Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carl Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

Could I ask members, if you want to converse across the floor, to leave the chamber.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carl Shep Way living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carl Shep Way living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Madam Chair: the next motion should be withdrawn. It is a variation on the one that we just passed, but the real one was the one that we just passed.

The First Deputy Chair: Okay. I don't have it in front of me yet. I'll take a look at it and compare. Do you mind if I finish with this one first?

Mr Flaherty: A mistake by the opposition --

The First Deputy Chair: The second one is a variation. It's just a gap between "Shep" and "Way" in this one. So you want to withdraw this one? Which one should be withdrawn.

Mrs Boyd: Madam Speaker, as I understand it, the one we passed, had the space. It is a person's name "Carl Shep" Way. The one that ought to be withdrawn is Shepway together in one word, as I understand it.

The First Deputy Chair: Okay. Great. Thank you.

2150

Mrs Boyd: While I'm on my feet, two more points of order. Obviously, the computer went nuts at this point, because the next two ones ought to be done. There is one that is Carlaw that has no --

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Order please, I need to hear this. Okay. Which ones do you need withdrawn?

Mrs Boyd: The next one is Carlaw with no street designation and so it should be withdrawn. Then there is a duplication of Carlaw Avenue so the next one that's Carlaw Avenue should also be withdrawn.

The First Deputy Chair: Okay. They shall be withdrawn. Yes, member for Durham East.

Mr Flaherty: Could we hear from the member why Carlaw Avenue is withdrawn and why Carlaw is withdrawn. Are they both not real places? Are the NDP winging motions about? Are we assuming there is no Carlaw Avenue in this urban area?

The First Deputy Chair: I ruled on this last night. I am going to do so again. We're past the hour which was designated for questions and comments. We are now into the voice vote passing of the amendments. So there is no latitude for questions and comments. She does not have to, nor under the rules can there be, questions back and forth. She has withdrawn those, and that's the end of it.

Mr Flaherty: The withdrawal is on the basis that these are not places and that the computer made a mistake. I think it's well known by many people --

The First Deputy Chair: Take your seat, please. As I explained to you, if we were in a period where there was room, under the rules, for questions and comments, we could get into debate and discussion and questions, but now we're past that allocated time, and we're just simply voice voting the amendments.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:"

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): On a point of order: Is there a quorum present?

The First Deputy Chair: I'll check. Clerk, is there a quorum present?

Clerk Assistant (Ms Deborah Deller): A quorum is not present.

The First Deputy Chair ordered the bells rung.

Clerk Assistant: A quorum is now present, Chair.

The First Deputy Chair: NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carlaw Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:'"

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Order, please. NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carlaw Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carlaw Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. This vote is deferred.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carling Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carling Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carlingview Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carlingview Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

2200

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carlingwood Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carlingwood Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

Mr Klees: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carlisle Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carlisle Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carlson Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:'"

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Order, please.

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carlson Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,'"

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Madam Speaker: The Minister of Citizenship ought to know better than to speak to people in the gallery. I know that you have had to correct other members in the past, and she has done this again and again.

The First Deputy Chair: I would caution --

Interjection.

The First Deputy Chair: The member for London Centre, if you will give me an opportunity to respond, I will caution all members. You know the rules. If you want to change the rules you can do that by unanimous consent in legislative committee. You can't do it here tonight. You can't talk to members in the gallery. Thank you.

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carlton Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carlton Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

2210

Mr Silipo: On a point of order: Chair, you will recall that earlier this afternoon, I believe it was, this committee passed an amendment to one of the motions that we passed with respect to the residents of Cafon Court. I thought it would be in order for me to tell you that in fact, with my colleague Mr Bisson, we attended at Cafon Court this evening to talk to some of the residents and discovered that in fact 80% of them are against the megacity, and they said very clearly --

The First Deputy Chair: Thank you.

Mr Silipo: Mr di Donato said very clearly --

The First Deputy Chair: You do not have a point of order.

Mr Silipo: He would like Mr Harris to visit them and talk to them --

The First Deputy Chair: Come to order.

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: You come to order. Everybody come to order. You are out of order. You are out of order in speaking to me that way. Thank you.

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Point of order, the member for Cochrane South. I must have some order to hear points of order. Could you take your seat for a moment, please. I want to say to all members, I cannot hear to determine if there is a point of order or not, when everybody starts drowning out the voice who is asking for the point of order. I heard about three sentences, and after that, I was unable to hear. If you wish me to judge fairly, the best I can, as fairly for all sides of the House, you must let me listen to the point of order. Thank you.

Mr Silipo: Chair --

The First Deputy Chair: You were, as it happened, out of order. It was not a point of order. Member for Cochrane South.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I want to, by way of the standing orders, say that I too was on Cafon Court, and it does have to do with the standing orders specifically.

The First Deputy Chair: Get to your point of order immediately.

Mr Bisson: I'm getting specifically to the point of order. I noticed on going to Cafon Court that there was a sign entering that court. It said "No Exit," and I think that's where the government finds itself on this policy, having no exit.

The First Deputy Chair: That is not a point of order. Are we ready to get back to the amendments?

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Order, please. Are we ready?

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

Mrs Helen Johns (Huron): Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carluke Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carluke Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carlyle Street living in the urban area shall be made'" --

Mrs Johns: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

-- "`unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carlyle Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carmel Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carmel Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the amendment carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Mr Silipo: On a point of order, Chair: I believe that the next amendment that we are dealing with deals with the residents of Carmichael Avenue. I just think that it would be highly in order if the residents of Carmichael Avenue were to receive the same rights that the residents of Cafon Crescent received earlier, particularly in light of the comments made to us by Peter and Mary Jansen and by Joe di Donato and by Mr Elio Pagliei, who would like these rights -- they live on Cafon Crescent. They would like to see these rights extended to citizens right across Metropolitan Toronto.

2220

The First Deputy Chair: That is not a point of order. Thank you.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carmichael Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carmichael Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carnarvon Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carnarvon Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carnarvon Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carnarvon Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carnation Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carnation Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:"

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carncastle Gate living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carncastle Gate living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carnegie Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carnegie Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

2230

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carney Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carney Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation," --

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carnforth Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carnforth Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1)'" --

Mrs McLeod: Madam Chair, I don't think there's a quorum.

The First Deputy Chair: Clerk, is there a quorum?

Clerk at the Table (Ms Lisa Freedman): A quorum is not present, Chair.

The First Deputy Chair ordered the bells rung.

Clerk at the Table: A quorum is present now, Chair.

The First Deputy Chair: A quorum is present.

"`Public consultation.

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carnival Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carnival Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." All those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote will be deferred.

NDP motion -- could I have order, please. Order. Member for Cochrane North, come to order -- subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carnwath Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carnwath Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

2240

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carol Wrenway living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carol Wrenway living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:" --

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carolbreen Square living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carolbreen Square living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24" --

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caroline Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caroline Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carondale Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carondale Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caronia Square living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caronia Square living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caronport Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caronport Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The motion will be deferred.

2250

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Caronridge Crescent living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Caronridge Crescent living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carousel Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied'" --

Interjection: Dispense.

The First Deputy Chair: Dispense? No.

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carousel Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Mrs Boyd: On a point of order, Madam Chair: The next amendment that we have in front of us does not have a street designation after the name "Carr," so it is to be withdrawn --

Interjection.

The First Deputy Chair: Sorry, I can't hear. You want to withdraw it?

Mrs Boyd: Yes.

The First Deputy Chair: Let me check. Okay. It's withdrawn.

Member for Scarborough East, you had a point of order?

Mr Gilchrist: Madam Chair, I appreciate the member opposite for London Centre having identified the next amendment that had been tabled by the NDP as being defective. I would draw to your attention today that it is also duplicated on the next two amendments and I would ask you to withdraw one or the other. One says "Carr Street" and one says "Carr Street Court." I don't think any of the municipalities would give two addresses like that, so I suggest that Carr Street is likely the correct one, once again demonstrating a complete lack of attention.

I wonder if in the course of this, at some point, you would invite the member opposite to indicate how much money of taxpayers' dollars was spent in producing these erroneous photocopies and how many trees were killed by these pro-environmentalists to be able to hold up the affairs of this House.

The First Deputy Chair: I'm ready to rule on your point of order if you're ready to hear it. The second half of your point of order was not a point of order. On your first point, I must tell you, I have one amendment in front of me, which I am going to deal with at this time. I do not have the other amendment at this point. I shall move this amendment at this particular time.

Interjection.

The First Deputy Chair: No, I am certainly not. I have one amendment in front of me.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carr Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carr Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Could I ask, please, government members to my right to try to keep it down. It's so close to me, it's very difficult for me to hear.

Hon Cameron Jackson (Minister without Portfolio [Seniors Issues]): And government members to your left?

The First Deputy Chair: I think you know what I mean, member for Burlington South. It's fine to talk, but keep it down a little bit. Thank you.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carr Street Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied'" --

Mr Gilchrist: Point of order, Madam Chair: You chose not to rule on it in advance, and that's certainly understandable, but obviously no municipality gives two names to streets like that. Obviously there's a typographical error. There can only be one Carr Street; there can't be a Carr Street Court. While it may be inane enough for them to have introduced an amendment, no municipality is that inane that they would have given two names to a street. Clearly, in the case of a typographical error, you are bound to look beyond that to the intent of an amendment. You can't debate a duplicate; you can't debate an amendment a second time. According to standing order 51, it is therefore inadmissible.

2300

I would also --

The First Deputy Chair: Member for Scarborough East, I have listened a great deal now to your point of order. Unfortunately it is --

Mr Gilchrist: Selectively indulgent.

The First Deputy Chair: It is not a point of order. The Speaker has already ruled on this. We cannot judge, as Chairs here, on the basis of Perly's. It's as simple as that. We cannot do so. The only persons who can withdraw these amendments are the movers. If that is not done, then I cannot withdraw them based on a point of order.

As I said, in case people want to bring up this point of order again, I want to remind you that I cannot judge whether or not the name of a street is actually valid and I cannot judge by Perly's. That is my ruling. I shall now proceed with the amendment.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carr Street Court living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carr Street Court living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carriage Lane living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carriage Lane living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Interjections.

The First Deputy Chair: Order, please. Thank you.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carrick Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carrick Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion, please say "aye." Those opposed, please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Mrs Boyd: A point of order, Madam Chair: I wonder if you could inform the member for London North --

The First Deputy Chair: Just a moment, I can't hear you. Order. I have a point of order and I can't hear.

Mrs Boyd: Well, Madam Speaker, it does sound more like a cocktail party than a legislature right now, certainly in the government benches.

The First Deputy Chair: Could I please just have your point of order.

Mrs Boyd: My point of order is that you might inform the member for London North and the member for York East that their conversation can be overheard in the earphones.

2310

The First Deputy Chair: Although it is not technically a point of order, I think that it's kind of you to assist in that way, and the Clerk will pass that information on. Perhaps you can tell me all about it later.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carrier Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carrier Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." Those opposed please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Mr Doug Galt (Northumberland): There were only four.

The First Deputy Chair: I saw five, but thank you --

Interjections.

The Chair: Order. We don't whistle in the House. It's totally out of order.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carrington Avenue living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carrington Avenue living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carroll Street living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carroll Street living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

2320

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean): Point of order, Mr Chair.

The Chair: I only accept points of order on the amendments, okay?

M. Baird : J'ai un point d'ordre très sérieux, Monsieur le Président. C'est que la Loi 8 dit très clairement :

Les projets de loi de caractère public de l'Assemblée qui sont présentés après le 1er janvier 1991 sont présentés et adoptés en français et en anglais.

Je voudrais demander si les amendements qui sont présentés par notre collègue du Nouveau Parti démocratique sont présentés en anglais et en français.

Le Président : Je vais vous répondre tout simplement : si les amendements étaient à la table en français, je les lirais en français. Ils sont tous en anglais, donc je n'ai pas de choix que de les lire en anglais.

Ms Lankin: Mr Chair, I just want you to know that we in fact can provide them in French as well, and there is an option for them to be adopted in both official languages. I think that's a very good idea, I say to the member for Nepean, because we could be here for 80 days and 80 nights.

Interjection.

The Chair: The member for Scarborough East, order.

Interjections.

The Chair: The member for Hamilton East, I won't warn you any more. Monsieur le Ministre, je vous demande d'être à l'ordre.

Interjection.

Le Président : Oui, je comprends, mais il faut l'être.

NDP motion:

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carsbrooke Road living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied:

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carsbrooke Road living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. Deferred vote.

Monsieur le Ministre, si ça relève de l'amendement.

L'hon M. Villeneuve : Oui. Un point d'ordre, Monsieur le Président : Nous avons 11 500 amendements faisant affaire avec. J'ai même à en entendre un en français.

Le Président : Je suis certain que vous avez compris. Il n'y a pas de problème. Ça va ? Oui.

NDP motion, subsection 24(4):

"I move that section 24 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

"`Public consultation

"`(4) Despite subsection (1), no regulation that may affect the residents of Carscadden Drive living in the urban area shall be made unless the following conditions have first been satisfied'" --

Interjections.

The Chair: I will continue when you keep quiet.

"`1. The minister has given notice of the proposed regulation, in a manner that will come to the attention of the residents of Carscadden Drive living in the urban area.

"`2. The minister has considered all written submissions made by members of the public that his office received within 30 days after the notice was given.

"`3. If 10 or more persons requested a public hearing within 30 days after the notice was given, a public hearing has been held and the minister has considered all oral submissions made at the hearing.

"`4. The minister shall give three weeks' notice of a public hearing, in the same manner as the notice under paragraph 1.

"`5. The notice under paragraph 1 shall,

"`i. include a copy of the proposed regulation,

"`ii. tell members of the public where and how to obtain, without charge, a copy of this act together with background material,

"`iii. advise members of the public of their rights under paragraphs 2, 3 and 4,

"`iv. advise members of the public where their written submissions and requests for a public hearing should be sent.'"

Shall the motion carry? All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye." All those opposed will please say "nay." In my opinion, the nays have it. The vote is deferred.

Mr Baird: Point of order, Mr Chair.

The Chair: On a point of order on the amendment only.

M. Baird : C'est bien sur les points d'ordre très sérieux. C'est sur mon dernier point d'ordre. La Loi 8, article 3(2) est très claire :

Les projets de loi de caractère public de l'Assemblée qui sont présentés après le 1er janvier 1991 sont présentés et adoptés en français et en anglais.

J'ai une question très sérieuse. Si les amendements du Nouveau Parti démocratique ne sont pas présentés avant 2 h mercredi, s'ils sont en ordre, à votre bureau dans les deux langues -- selon la Loi 8 c'est très clair -- bien sûr que les amendements du gouvernement qui sont présentés par M. Leach sont dans les deux langues comme c'est contenu dans la Loi 8, et c'est très sérieux -- si les amendement sont en ordre ? Est-ce qu'on peut avoir une opinion sur cette politique ?

Le Président : J'ai bien compris votre question. Laissez-moi quelques minutes. Je crois connaître la réponse mais je vais vérifier tout simplement.

Interjection.

The Chair: The member for Durham East, order, please.

Le Président : La réponse a été confirmée. C'est que la loi a été traduite en français et en anglais. Les amendements qui sont présentés présentement en Chambre sont en anglais, mais une fois que l'amendement sera accepté, il sera traduit en français et placé dans la loi.

2330

L'hon M. Villeneuve : Un point d'ordre, Monsieur le Président : Nous avons eu, par erreur, je crois, un amendement qui a été accepté. Si l'amendement n'était pas bilingue, est-ce que l'amendement est accepté ?

Le Président : L'amendement, à mon point de vue, et je vais vérifier encore -- à mon point de vue; ce n'est pas la loi -- c'est que le rendement, le jugement qui a été porté, faisait allusion à la loi, à l'amendement qui a été écrit en anglais. Si cet amendement-là avait été accepté, à mon point de vue, il aurait été traduit. Par contre, vous me posez une question technique qui demande peut-être des recherches plus prolongées. Mais ce qu'on peut faire, en attendant, c'est de continuer à lire les amendements jusqu'au temps qu'on puisse avoir la réponse définitive, si ça vous plaît.

L'hon Mr Villeneuve: Je crois que c'est important parce ce que nous avons eu un amendement qui a été accepté, puis je ne crois pas que l'amendement ait été dans la langue française, et je crois qu'à ce moment-là, peut-être, cela peut rendre l'amendement annulé.

Le Président : Voici c'est que l'amendement qui a été passé cet après-midi va être traduit en français, et il sera mis dans la loi en français. Alors, c'est la réponse.

L'hon M. Villeneuve : Mais l'amendement n'était pas dans les deux langues officielles.

Le Président : Non, mais comme j'ai expliqué tout à l'heure, les amendements ont été présentés en anglais, et une fois que l'amendement est accepté, il est traduit en français. Ça fait du sens aussi. On ne sait pas si l'amendement va être passé ou non. On ne sait pas s'il va être admis dans la loi. Alors, une fois que l'amendement est passé, il est traduit et il est mis dans la loi.

L'hon M. Villeneuve: Je mets tout simplement mes conditions. Je suis inquiet que des amendements -- d'accord, 11 500 amendements -- mais, par contre, ceux qui sont acceptés --

Le Président : -- sont traduits.

L'hon M. Villeneuve : C'est important. Pour moi --

Mr Len Wood: You're not worried about shutting down Montfort Hospital.

The Chair: Order. That has nothing to do with the point of order, the member for Cochrane North.

Alors, prenez ma parole là-dessus, c'est que je vous dis tout simplement, et je vais vérifier -- si je fais une erreur, je corrigerai l'erreur -- c'est que l'amendement à la loi a été passé en anglais et il sera traduit. C'est aussi simple que ça. S'il y a -- écoutez-moi bien aussi -- une difficulté technique, elle sera corrigée et elle sera bien corrigée.

Le député de Nepean.

M. Baird : J'ai beaucoup de respect et de l'admiration pour votre opinion, Monsieur le Président. Selon moi, le projet de loi dit "présentés et adoptés" dans cette Chambre.

I have a lot of respect for you, Mr Chair, and I think you do an admirable job. I just feel very strongly on this, and with the greatest of respect to you and to your office, I would like a ruling from the Speaker and would challenge that ruling.

The Chair: If this is your wish, we'll do so.

The committee rose and requested a ruling of the Speaker.

2342

The Speaker: The member for Nepean.

Mr Baird: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. We appreciate your returning and look forward to your giving your guidance. I will certainly try to be as succinct and clear as possible in my point of order.

The French Language Services Act, known as Bill 8, passed more than 10 years ago in this place, laid out some very specific and clear criteria. In the amended version, subsection 3(2) reads clearly, "Bills of the Legislative Assembly introduced after the 1st day of January 1991 shall be introduced and enacted in both English and French." "Introduced" and "enacted" are two very important words in that issue. What it implies is that the bill must be introduced so that we can we make consideration of the act in both languages, neither having superiority over the other, and enacted, which is I think what we're doing now.

"Introduced": We would want them in both languages so we could make our decision on whether we wanted to support or reject those bills. "Enacted": So that when we did conduct the act of voting we could be in a position (a) to make a value judgement whether we approved with respect to the content of the bill and (b) to ensure that, in our job as legislators, both languages with equal standing have the exact same meaning. There have been cases where one translation has been interpreted differently by the courts from the other translation.

That's why they have to be introduced and enacted at the very same time, so that we as legislators can undertake our function, both after introduction and in the process of enacting. The amendments to legislation are of sufficient importance to require that, as a part of the bill, they be introduced and enacted in both languages.

Translations are done before we consider them. The translators, with great respect, don't have the power to write legislation after we have enacted it. We, as legislators, have a responsibility to ensure that those translations are sufficiently acceptable and reasonably written, in our judgement, in order for us to be able to undertake our function. We cannot undertake our function if we adopt an English-language translation in this House and then after this place closes down, after we leave, there are translators somewhere at the Legislative Assembly and legal counsel drafting legislation after the people's representatives have passed that legislation. That is a very, very important distinction.

It's important to state as well that under Bill 8, the French Language Services Act, neither language is translated into the other in terms of legislation. Both languages have equal standing in this place. So it's not a matter of saying we'll take one language and translate it into the other. We have the right, as legislators, to have those presented twice, because if a court and a judge can interpret legislation in French, we've got to see what that French text is like, because there have been cases, most notably in the Employment Standards Act, last year, in committee, we actually sought an amendment to the Employment Standards Act to the government to correct a translation error.

Obviously, there will be errors from time to time, even after the bill has been introduced into this place, when we've all had the opportunity to review it. There can be mistakes even after we've enacted it as a House, which are two separate functions. One is not passed and the other is not translated. They're both passed at the very same time, and that is something that I believe is very, very important. I think the same standard has to be given to amendments, not that the amendments would have to be tabled in both languages when the bill was introduced, but that when you present amendments for consideration of the House, when you introduce them, and I would argue that that would be by the deadline on Wednesday, when they had to be in to you and then deemed adopted later in the day on Wednesday, that at that time, they had to be introduced so that we, as legislators, could undertake our responsibility to ensure that they're both in the correct order, that they reflect the exact same thing in French and English, because a judge can interpret the French version or the English version, because we have francophone judges whose duty it is to interpret that legislation.

So I think it is very, very important that we, as legislators, have the ability to make that judgement as the representatives of the people, not a translator after this place has closed down to have the power to write laws after the fact, and I think amendments are of a significant importance that that same exact standard on introduction and on enactment apply.

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): On the same point, I would just like to suggest to the Speaker that by precedent this has not been the case in this House, and that when we're dealing with amendments, not public bills but amendments to public bills, by the precedent set by the Chair, Mr Poirier, in the debates of March 22, 1990, he ruled that amendments in either language were acceptable, but they need not be bilingual.

I think if you think about that, it only makes ultimate sense. While we're in the midst of a process here that most members would find very trying and very difficult to get through, one of the problems with this process is because we're working under a time allocation motion, we are not able to change, for example, a court to a street or to make some of the simple amendments that are sometimes made during the course of debates of amendments under the normal process that's followed in this place.

I would suggest to the member that by asking -- and I understand the reasoning and I think that would be a good debate around here for another day, but on this particular item, I think we all understand that amendments in either official language should be accepted and it not need to be bilingual, because I think we would find committees around this place may grind to a screeching halt.

Mr Speaker, I just ask you to have a look at the precedents and think about the flexibility we might need to make sure the legislation in Ontario is the best we can provide.

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Mrs Boyd: It's an interesting issue that the member for Nepean has raised, and I think all of us here in the House are sensitive to the concerns that he has in terms of the availability of French-language resources. His concerns around translation may or may not be as valid as he suggests. There certainly have been instances where a translation has been questioned by a court. There's no question about that, but in the vast majority of pieces of legislation, the vast majority of materials that are adopted by this House, that is not a problem.

I would direct your attention to the sections about amendments, and particularly sections 75, 76 and 77 of the standing orders, and I'll read those into the record, because I think it is pertinent.

"75. When time permits, amendments proposed to be moved to bills in any committee shall be filed with the Clerk of the House at least two hours before the bill is to be considered, and copies of such proposed amendments shall be distributed to all parties.

"76. (a) The Chair of a committee considering a bill shall initial each section of the bill as it is passed and sign the bill.

"(b) Amendments shall be clearly indicated in the signed copy, and the amendments or additions shall be initialled by the Chair."

I would point out, at no time are we talking about doing this in both languages or translations or the necessity for the Chair of a committee, whether it's committee of the whole or a standing committee, to certify that the translation is the same. This is not a job that has been given to committees, and the member's comment suggested that in fact it was.

"77. (a) Bills reported from the committee of the whole House shall stand ordered for third reading and bills reported from standing or select committees shall, by unanimous consent, also be ordered for third reading; but an order for third reading may, on motion, be discharged by the House and the bill referred back to a committee.

"(b)" -- this is absolutely crucial in my view -- "When a bill has been amended in any committee it shall be reprinted as the Clerk of the House directs, amendments being indicated, and shall not be further proceeded with until it has been reprinted and marked REPRINTED on the Orders and Notices paper."

The reason for that is, as the Chair of the committee of the whole was suggesting, that once amendments are passed, they are translated and incorporated into the bill so that the whole bill is passed, and the issue that the member raises, while it may be an issue at some point that this House would want to consider, at this point in time, it has not been the custom of this House to have all amendments in both official languages before they are actually passed.

I would say to the Speaker, that I certainly have been in committee on many occasions when we have had handwritten amendments, in English usually but they could equally be in French, that the committee considers and passes. That happens as we try to look at amendments in committees, when we're in committee of the whole in committee. French translations are not available then and yet those amendments are considered to be passed and are incorporated into the bill, and when the bill is finally printed of course are translated as is the bill. It has certainly not been the practice of this House to have every amendment printed necessarily or available necessarily in the French language, and the requirement in Bill 8 is that bills be available.

We have said that these amendments will be available in French. We can certainly provide for this House a number of the amendments in French. The minister of francophone affairs said he would be satisfied with one amendment, and since we have many more days of amendments to do, we will certainly be able to meet his requirement.

Hon Mr Villeneuve: I have simply said that in this House, to this point, there have been no amendments presented in the French language. I have simply said I would love to hear at least one, and I have not heard one.

The Speaker: I appreciate that, if that's the point of order.

Mr Baird: Mr Speaker, I appreciate you've been good with your time, so I'll be brief. My colleague the member for London Centre said about the committee amendments being handwritten. When I present amendments at committee stage, they have to be in a certain prescribed format. I have to consult with legislative counsel to ensure that they are the proper legal language, that my intention fits in with the specific amendment and the relevant section I'm amending. That requires me, if I want to present amendments, to be prepared when I present them, to present them appropriately in the right format, in the right content. That is something important. If one thought to present things in handwritten, that would certainly present concerns.

Two last points. Our standing orders, as important as they are in this place, they do not override Bill 8. They do not override the French Language Services Act. That issue, I think, is crystal clear. If our standing orders overrode laws of this province, that would be a real concern, I think, to many across the province of Ontario.

The final point I would make is the interpretation of the precedent appointed by my colleague opposite, by the Acting Speaker, Mr Poirier, in his ruling of 1990. It did not refer to Bill 8, firstly. Secondly, it was in 1990, that interpretation -- 1990, Mr Speaker. Section 3(2) says: "The public bills of the Legislative Assembly introduced after the first day of January 1991," so Mr Poirier's ruling was before this statute came into effect, which was on January 1, 1991.

I think it's an extremely important issue, that the laws of this province, the statutes enacted by this House certainly cannot be overridden by our standing orders in the province of Ontario.

C'est une question qui sera très importante pour les droits des francophones dans la province de l'Ontario, mais même aussi pour les anglophones, parce que les amendements qu'on discute et qu'on débat ici dans cette Chambre peuvent être interprétés par une cour, par un juge, et affecter les anglophones et les francophones.

It's not an issue of French-language services. It's an issue that these amendments, this legislation, when passed into law, has equal standing in both languages, because a judge could interpret the French version in an English court and that's very important. I thank you for your time, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: I appreciate the input. Again, I won't ever cut off points of order to rulings. May I ask the members to be very concise, very direct and to the point.

Mrs McLeod: Mr Speaker, I did have the government amendments before me as we began the consideration of amendments in committee of the whole. I'm not aware of there being copies of those amendments provided to members in French. Am I wrong in that understanding?

The Speaker: I appreciate the question you're asking at this time, but it is not a point of order.

Mrs McLeod: I simply didn't want to make an assumption that might be an error because my point -- and it's to the point of order -- is that I would believe, as other members have said, that it would be something of a precedent to require that the amendments all be presented and considered in both languages. Certainly, I was on committee 104, and the amendments were not presented in both languages and were brought forward to this committee, considered by the table and by the Speaker and considered to be in order and tabled. I believe that the amendments have been ruled on repeatedly as being in order.

I'm not sure why the government would like to choose this particular issue on which to make a precedent to require all amendments to be considered in both languages, because quite clearly, using this as a precedent to make that requirement would mean that we would be here for a very, very long time in reading the amendments in both languages.

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Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): We're not suggesting any quarrel with Bill 8 and we quite frankly expect Bill 8 to be complied with. Bill 8 is very specific and very clear, that when bills are presented to the House -- and bills are presented to the House on three occasions: for first reading, for second reading and for third reading -- they have to be prepared in both English and French. If Bill 8 were intended to extend to amendments it very clearly would have said, when amendments are presented to committee, be it standing committee or committee of the whole, that they too should be in both languages. Currently Bill 8 doesn't say that.

An amendment is not a bill, we understand that. An amendment is not a bill. A bill is what's presented to the House on first, second or third reading. An amendment is what's presented to a committee and stands on its own for consideration, as amendments do here, in this committee of the whole, as they have in standing committees and other committees of the whole. When this bill is presented to the House for third reading it will be presented having incorporated all of those amendments that were approved by this committee, including of course the consideration of the folks out in Cafon Court, and it will then be presented in both languages.

The member from Nepean speaks of, I suppose, what some people will call the mischief that's being addressed. He talks about the concern that he has, the mischief that's being addressed, and that is that he wants an opportunity for legislators to compare, and he's quite right about the judicial interpretations of French-language or English-language statutes. That mischief is addressed when the bill is presented for third reading, and for consideration by the House on third reading. With respect -- and I appreciate what the member for Nepean is trying to do, I think we all understand that -- but it's a gross misunderstanding and would be a misapplication of Bill 8.

Bill 8 speaks of bills; no quarrel with that. I think everybody in this House is in complete agreement. It clearly doesn't speak of amendments. An amendment is not a bill. A bill as amended then becomes a bill presented on third reading. That must of course be produced in both languages. It's no more complicated than that, with respect, sir. I'll offer no more. I don't think the scenario is a difficult one in terms of the definition or the interpretation of Bill 8 and its application.

Mr Gilchrist: Mr Speaker, you were kind enough during an earlier discussion we had very early in these proceedings to cite the framework within which you make your decisions, and if I remember correctly, you emphasized the precedents were one of those very important criteria on which you would base any decision.

I would draw to your attention a decision by the Honourable Lucien Lamoureux in the federal Parliament on January 19, 1970: The question that faced him was posed during the debate of a particular act. A member rose on a point of order to suggest that there were discrepancies between the French and English texts.

This comes back to precisely the root of the problem as described by my colleague from Nepean. Unless we have the amendment before us prior to voting, all of these amendments, we will not know whether or not the translation which is crafted at some point in the future accurately reflects what we believe we are voting on in this chamber today and yesterday and in the days to come. We are not capable of making that distinction.

When the Speaker was asked the appropriateness of subsequent judgements at some point in the future, his decision was, no, it is not the duty of the Chair to interpret the language of a measure when one text appears to be at variance with or different from the text of the other official language. The reasons given by the Speaker went on to say that, if in fact there were differences between the two texts of the proposed bill, nonetheless it is not the duty of the Speaker to settle such questions. If it were, there would be a significant problem deciding which version reflects the real intention of those who drafted the bill.

With the greatest of respect, Mr Speaker, I'm sure that is not a position you would want to be in. Given that there are, on this one amendment alone, in essence 8,000 duplicate copies, to suggest -- at the outset, by the time amendments were due to be tabled in front of us here, consistent with Bill 8, a law of the province -- that one omnibus translation that was the same, save and except the fact that they were using every street in Metro Toronto and other landmarks, would not have been an onerous task.

They did not do that, Mr Speaker, and as precedent would dictate, for us to try and clean up after the fact cannot be done and you would not be in a position to arbitrate if in fact we were not comfortable -- and not just us, but the people of this province were not comfortable -- with the translation that ultimately came forward. We cannot go back and redo what we are doing here, and I think this precedent speaks right to the question that's before us here today.

Mr Michael Brown: I first want to point out -- I have a copy of Bill 8 in my hand. I would point out to the government and to my friend from Nepean that the act refers specifically to public bills being presented in both official languages. But just to be helpful to the Speaker, I would point out section 7 of Bill 8. I'll just read this to be helpful. It says:

"The obligations of government agencies and institutions of the Legislature under this act are subject to such limits as circumstances make reasonable and necessary, if all reasonable measures and plans for compliance with this act have been taken or made."

What that means is that in the practice around here, in order to accommodate the work we do at committees on a daily basis, after we do that kind of work, I know, Mr Speaker, that you have, I have, anybody who has been around here for very long has made amendments, generally speaking, with all three parties scratching out an amendment together because they have found, for whatever reason, some section of some bill needs a little bit of work, and we have made those amendments working with the legislative counsel directly. I know the Minister of Agriculture, for example, has done that. So in order to expedite this work and to maintain the precedents, obviously an amendment in either official language needs to be able to be made.

Mr Baird: The member points to section 7 of the French Language Services Act and says, "are subject to such limits as circumstances make reasonable." Surely it's not too unreasonable that if they could craft 8,000 amendments -- something that you know, Mr Speaker, would have taken a substantial amount of time -- it would be quite reasonable, over the two weeks that I know the members' offices spent drafting these amendments, to take the time to live up to their obligations under the French Language Services Act. If they are not able to do it when they have -- this time allocation motion was passed more than five, six, seven weeks ago. They have spent two weeks drafting these amendments and have been reported so in the media. I think it is very reasonable; any test that you would set, Mr Speaker, for what would constitute "reasonable" would certainly apply in this case.

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, minister responsible for women's issues): I just wanted to add a piece of information to the debate. Since I've been in this House, certainly, the government and opposition parties have tabled amendments in both French and English, and we have been advised over the years that there have been occasions at the last minute, in fact, as the member for Algoma-Manitoulin stated, where we have had an informal arrangement where we haven't had to put in the French at the last minute.

But I'd just like to point out that what we're doing this evening is unprecedented. This isn't a matter of somebody putting through a thoughtful amendment to a bill at the last minute. This is a matter, I believe, of someone, a party, in this case the NDP, putting in thousands of amendments to a piece of legislation where who would give anybody even an informal permission to table it at the last minute? My point is, this is really frivolous in my view and I believe it has been the precedent of this House to table our bills, as we have done in this bill and other bills since we've been in government, in both French and English. We have done that, and so have opposition members tabled their amendments in French and in English.

The Speaker: Thank you very much for your submissions. We'll take a 30-minute recess.

The House recessed from 0009 to 0045.

The Speaker: I thank the members for their submissions with respect to this point of order. With respect to the point of order on the amendment passed in committee of the whole, it is not timely, as the amendment has already been considered and passed. If the member had concerns, they should have been raised at the time it was moved. As the Chair of the committee of the whole has already said, the amendment will be translated by legislative counsel. Amendments may be moved in either French or English. The House does not consider amendments first in one language and then the other. I therefore uphold the Chair's ruling.

Now there's a second issue to address. We have a long-standing practice in committees that when an amendment is moved in one language and any member requests a copy of it in the other language, it will be provided and the committee either proceeds or suspends its proceedings until the translation is provided. Thank you.

Report continues in volume I.