L114 - Mon 10 Feb 1986 / Lun 10 fév 1986

ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT AND MINES (CONTINUED)

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The House resumed at 8 p.m.

House in committee of supply.

ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT AND MINES (CONTINUED)

On vote 801, ministry administration program; item 1, main office:

Mr. Chairman: I cannot tell by my notes exactly where we left off last time. I presume the minister wants to take a seat at the front.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: When I reviewed the questions of my friend the member for Kenora (Mr. Bernier), I was very surprised. He was telling the people of this province that since I arrived I have not taken care of tourism. When I looked at the budget, between last year and this year there was close to $2 million more from this minister.

The ministry's direct tourism estimates are split into several cost centres in the overall budget. Because of the nature of tourism, there are many other ministry programs that affect this sector, such as highway construction, but total direct estimates by the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines are almost $4.7 million, as follows:

Attraction facilities for 1985-86 is $1,443,000. Last year it was $1,449,000. Promotion and information this year is $1,694,000 compared to $643,000, so I do not know what the member is talking about.

The northern Ontario rural development agreement is $710,000 this year; last year it was $717,000. However, the northern Ontario regional development program this year is $828,000, and last year it was zero. Where was the Nordev he was talking about? He said I had no money for Nordev. Look at the results already.

In addition, our estimates contain $1.3 million for Kenora waterfront development, which is fully recoverable from the Board of Industrial Leadership and Development.

Mr. Wildman: Did you say Kenora?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Yes, lucky Kenora. This ministry has substantially increased its spending on tourism in 1985-86.

It will undertake more than 50 projects in promotion and information, for a total of $1.7 million. This is an increase of $1 million over 1984-85 spending. In addition, the introduction of Nordev enabled a further commitment of $800,000 for tourism by the private sector.

There was a question from the member for Kenora about the mining and mineral resources budget and staffing. My staff is currently finalizing the details of the formal transfer of the staff and budget, which will take place on April 1 at the beginning of the next fiscal year. I cannot tell the member at this time what the numbers will be, but they are significant and they will be reported in detail in our 1986-87 estimates.

The only person who is officially on my staff is Dennis Tieman, and he is working closely with the Ministry of Natural Resources, along with Ron Urancart to finalize all the details of the transfer.

Then there were all those questions about how much it cost to change the name. First of all, there was the insignia: I did not like the colours, the yellow and blue. They were not too nice. It was like an Ontario Northland Transportation Commission bus or the old Star Transfer. So one way or another I favoured changing those colours, the same as those signs; and we had to add "Mines" on it. To date, on the two Toronto signs -- and that was the big question -- we have spent $2,500. The estimated cost for those 60 new signs with new colours -- not red or blue, but a nice green and other colours -- will be $28,000. We are going to have the mine, we are going to have a shaft, and we are going to have a tree on it, and it will be very nice.

All stationery, including all mining forms, will cost approximately $22,500. The cost is kept down because of use of labels over our existing stock. As we say to our friend in the third party, we are pushing fiscal responsibility and we are showing that tonight.

Mr. Wildman: I understand that during discussion of these estimates on Friday last, the member for Kenora commented that he was disappointed the deputy minister and the minister did not have at their fingertips the figures he was requesting. I suppose that is the reason for this deluge of figures we have just received from the minister.

I must congratulate the minister for choosing green as the colour. It is very useful in that it means in future we will not have to change the colour, which is indeed fiscally responsible. I apologize to the minister for not being present during discussion of the estimates on Thursday evening and Friday morning, but the minister is fully aware the decision to change the schedule of the House was made suddenly Thursday morning and I had scheduled many weeks earlier to be in Blind River to debate --

Mr. Callaghan: Where was the member? He got a tan.

Mr. Wildman: A tan in Blind River? Hardly. I had arranged to debate the question of free trade with the minister's federal colleague Dr. Maurice Foster, the member of Parliament for Algoma, and also with a representative of the Honourable James Kelleher, Minister for International Trade, who unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how one looks at it, had to leave for Asia and therefore could not make it to Blind River.

I have looked very carefully at the Instant Hansard and gone over the discussion. If it is in order, I would like to respond under this vote to the responses the minister gave to the specific matters I raised in my leadoff, and then perhaps we can move into the individual votes and vote the estimates and deal with particular issues under each specific vote.

In his response, the minister indicated there was not that great a difference between the concerns he has and I have about northern Ontario, except that he described himself as being more optimistic than I. I have some disagreement with that point of view. I do not believe that in my leadoff remarks I was pessimistic. I did point out, as the minister had done himself on a number of occasions, the serious problems that we have in northern Ontario, but in the last part of my remarks I also suggested some specific things that should be done, some specific principles that I feel should be followed by this ministry in dealing with those problems; and I made a number of individual proposals.

Frankly, I am disappointed that the minister did not specifically respond to those proposals, other than to one I had made about the use of crown corporations by the government in trying to direct investment to redress some of the difficulties we have had with northern development in the past, particularly with one-industry towns.

The minister indicated that he thought I was too quick to criticize the private sector for the problems of northern Ontario. I do not quite understand who else I should criticize. I suppose I could criticize my colleagues to the right who were in power for 40-odd years but I really do not like to hit a guy when he is down. It is not nice to kick a guy when he is lying on the ground.

8:10 p.m.

I indicated in my leadoff remarks that the previous government did very little interfering -- that is the term it would use; I would use a less pejorative term and call it "intervening" -- in the marketplace. One could criticize them for doing little, but one could not criticize them for what they had done. I suppose that in the Anglican sense they were sins of omission rather than commission.

I understand that a number of the people under the gallery and one of minister's advisers right here served the previous government. I am not critical of them; after all they were just carrying out the wishes of the political leaders, the government of the day.

I do not see anyone to criticize other than those in the private sector in dealing with the problems of northern Ontario, because over the years it was the private sector to which decisions about investment in the north were left by the Conservatives. The private sector has chosen to take the profits that derive from resource extraction out of the north and has reinvested very little in the north. It is for that reason I was critical, not so much of the private sector but of the lack of political will on the part of the government to direct the private sector to ensure there was a greater return for northerners from the revenues that relate to resource extraction.

I do not think it was fair of the minister to characterize my comments as seeking scapegoats. I would never make Mr. Baird, the president of Inco Ltd., a scapegoat. I would never want to characterize the executives or board of directors of Falconbridge Ltd. or Abitibi-Price lnc. as scapegoats. I have been quick in the past to defend the private sector when I believed the government was being unfair to it. Under the Conservatives, that has not been often but on occasion they have been unfair to the private sector.

I remember when the president of Smooth Rock power and paper -- is that what it is called?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Spruce Falls.

Mr. Wildman: Spruce Falls Power and Paper Co. Ltd.

At the time the grants were being proposed for the pulp and paper companies, the president made a speech. He was an unreconstructed free enterpriser and he made a speech saying that as a free enterpriser he did not believe his company needed any of the grants for modernization of the pulp and paper industry. He felt the company could do what was necessary and what was required for the good of the company, the communities where it operated and its employees without government involvement. He went on at great length.

I raised this matter with the now Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Grossman), who at that time was the Minister of Industry and Trade or Industry and Tourism, I cannot remember what it was called at that time. I defended this unreconstructed free enterpriser against the socialism of the Tory government in interfering in the marketplace and forcing these grants on the private sector.

When I read the speech, I found it interesting that the president went on at great length about how he did not believe the government should be involved and how it was unfair for the government to be handing out these grants to the private sector.

In the very last part of his speech he said, of course, that if the other companies were to get those grants, Spruce Falls would be in an uncompetitive position if it did not take a grant.

It just proves my point that interventionists such as the member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick (Mr. Grossman) were forcing this free enterpriser to soil his hands with public money. It was most unfortunate. On that occasion I defended the private sector against government intervention. I do believe the government -- these Tories who were the government for so long and became so complacent they believed whatever they thought was what should be done, even though the cooler heads in the private sector knew what they were doing was wrong -- had lost its principles.

It reminded me of last May. When the election campaign was over and there were discussions among the three parties as to who might rule this province after the rather stalemated result, there was a throne speech. This Tory party under the previous leader, that red Tory -- that is what I think they call them; mix red and blue and one gets a sick colour of purple -- the member for Muskoka (Mr. F. S. Miller), brought in a throne speech so progressive it even suggested things like first-contract legislation.

After the negotiations were all over and there was a change in government, this Liberal government brought in something called first-contract legislation; however, by then the Tories had thrown out that red Tory, the member for Muskoka, and brought in a true-blue free enterpriser, the current Leader of the Opposition, who is now opposed to first-contract legislation. I recall when he was a minister of the crown he was forcing public money into the private sector against its will. That party is confused and does not understand. I do not want to criticize it.

To come back to the point, we have to look at the record of the private sector in northern Ontario to understand the problems of the north and realize what has been done. I do not think it is fair to say I am making a scapegoat out of the private sector. I am only a little member for Algoma. I do not have the kind of power to embarrass the great moguls of the private sector. They are far more powerful than I. If someone is to seduce them to accept public moneys when they do not want it, I suppose we are all weak at times.

The minister went on to say that he was interested in my proposal about crown corporations, since I do not believe we can depend solely on the private sector to reinvest in the north. For the last number of years we have been dependent on the private sector and the investments have not taken place.

The minister was quite correct when he said that over the years of the boom, when we were doing very well through resource extraction in the north, the private sector did not invest as much as it might have in processing and secondary manufacturing, where the jobs are. It is unlikely that now, in our recession, the private sector is going to make those investments. It is far less likely today, as it has been in the last couple of years, than it was in the 1960s. I do not believe we can say to the private sector, "Now, when you are in a profit squeeze, we expect you to make the kinds of investments you would not make when you were making money hand over fist."

8:20 p.m.

I said I thought we should consider the use of crown corporations, either by directly investing through them or entering into joint ventures with the private sector, to develop industries which are dependent on our resource strength in the north; to develop industries with both backward and forward linkages that would provide what is needed to develop the potential mineral and forest wealth in the north, whether in mining machinery, which my colleague the member for Sudbury East (Mr. Martel) talked about, or in forestry machinery, furniture manufacturing or whatever.

The minister said in his response that the experience with crown corporations elsewhere was not encouraging. I want to know what he bases that on. Does he base it on the experience of the Blakeney government or the Devine government in Saskatchewan? "Divine government" is a very strange term. That is what the Conservatives thought we had in Ontario for 40 years, if not the divine right of kings, then at least the divine right of Tories.

For those members who are not from northern Ontario, I can tell them that while we have tremendous strength and potential in the north, the minister and members of the Tory party from the north are aware that we also have a lot of problems that we should not have because of our strength and wealth. If anyone thinks everything is rosy in northern Ontario, maybe we should return to the system where we took members from southern Ontario up to the north and showed them not only the great beauty, strength and potential we have but also some of the serious problems we have.

Mr. McLean: We would love to look at the fish.

Mr. Wildman: One of the problems is we do not have as many fish as we used to, but that is another matter.

I want the minister to respond by saying on what basis he makes the comment that the experience of crown corporations elsewhere has not been encouraging. Perhaps on the advice of the deputy minister -- and I do not want to be assuming too much -- he is looking at the experience of the federal government with crown corporations. It might be useful to look at the record of a government that believes in crown corporations rather than at the record of a government that simply uses crown corporations when one of its private sector friends is losing money. I am not talking about nationalizing a loser. I am talking about developing crown corporations in which there is a chance to make a profit.

Mr. Guindon: Such as what?

Mr. Wildman: All the member has to do is look at the experience in Saskatchewan and he will know what I am talking about.

Mr. Hennessy: The Tory government.

Mr. Wildman: The Tory government in Saskatchewan has been attempting to sell off its crown corporations hand over fist because, since Devine came into power, they have suddenly discovered deficits. Under Blakeney, they did not have a deficit; they balanced the budget. Typically, Tory government means debt.

The minister also said in his response that the cabinet committee on northern development was developing a 10-year program for the north that will be announced in the near future and that we will see a plan for northern development coming from this government. I look forward to that. However, I want a little more clarification as to what the exact role will be of the regional development councils. I raised some concerns about them in my leadoff remarks.

In his response, the minister said the regional development councils will not be just reactive, but will also be proactive in that they will be making proposals to the government. He pointed to two of the councils that are already in the process of being organized.

I want to know a little bit more about how they will be named. From what groups is the minister seeking representation? Who is proposing the names? How will they be evaluated? Under what criteria will the minister determine what people should serve on these regional development councils? How long will their terms be? Generally, how will they be remunerated for their efforts and how will they report to the minister; it will be by a report for his use alone or will they be able to make public statements?

In that regard, just as an aside, the minister asked me to check with the township council of White River to find out what area it would like to be part of, the one to the west or the one to the southeast -- Wawa towards Sault Ste. Marie. I checked with the reeve and he raised it with his council at its last meeting. They have informed me they would like to be part of the west. In other words, they would like to be grouped with the other communities, such as Marathon and Manitouwadge, that are affected by the Hemlo development.

In my remarks I pointed to two needs I saw in northern Ontario: the need for diversification and the need to stabilize the boom-and-bust cycle in the north. I am sure the minister understands those two needs. He puts a lot of emphasis on the need to stabilize the economy of northern Ontario, but he also has put a great deal of emphasis on obtaining ideas about how to do that from the committee of which I am a member. The member for Rainy River (Mr. Pierce) is also represented, as is the member for Carleton East (Mr. Morin). The minister referred to that committee repeatedly during his response. I hope it will be able to live up to his high expectations. I am not about to cast doubt on those expectations, but the committee has been given a very wide mandate and it has a big job to do.

I understand the committee is going to be going to Quetico Centre and will be meeting with representatives of Atikokan, Ignace and Ear Falls to try to gain from their experiences, both good and bad, some input with regard to stabilizing the economy of a resource-dependent, one-industry town. In the future, I hope we will be travelling to some centres in the northeast to gain from their experience.

This is all part of the minister's attitude that we should have more input from the north. I accept and agree with that. We should have more input from northerners; not just people in government but also business people and labour and community representatives. However, I am not certain we are going to be able to come up with the new initiatives on which the minister seems to be counting. I hope we will be able to do that, but I will leave that as it is.

The minister gave a response to the Fahlgren report, as I had requested, and listed a number of things the government had done. I will refer to only two of them briefly, because it is not necessary for me to go over all of them at this time. The minister talked about the forestry program and mentioned the seedling nurseries and the program the government has been carrying on to try to produce more stock for the forests.

8:30 p.m.

The minister knows what I am going to raise. The standing committee on public accounts effectively proved the point I was attempting to make about the previous government and its approach to the distribution of the seedling nurseries, despite what the former minister had to say during his appearance at that committee.

Since that committee had its hearing, the minister's colleague, the Minister for Natural Resources (Mr. Kerrio), has indicated to me that he would like to discuss the matter further. I hope this minister will prevail upon his colleague to reconsider the decision made by the former minister against following the wishes of his staff and locate a nursery in the Wawa-Dubreuilville area.

I am disappointed by the response I got from the minister to my previous inquiry by letter. He said in effect: "We had only so much money for these nurseries. While you are quite right and it should have been located in the Wawa-Dubreuilville area, the money has already been spent in another location and we do not have any more money for a nursery in that area."

The minister has admitted there is a tremendous need for seed stock in the north. It would be useful to look at that again and to consider the allocation of funding for that nursery.

The minister also indicated a number of things about responding to Fahlgren's comments on environmental assessment. There was an announcement today by the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Bradley) with regard to forestry and environmental assessment.

I would like to know specifically what this minister's position is on the spraying program of the Ministry of Natural Resources. While I recognize it is not part of his responsibility, obviously as Minister of Northern Development and Mines and as the only member of the cabinet from northern Ontario, he must have some influence on the decisions that are being discussed about spraying in northern Ontario.

An announcement was made in the Sault Ste. Marie media today that there are a large number of hectares in the Wawa area where bacillus thuringiensis will be sprayed this summer. I support the Bt spraying program because we have to do something about the budworm and Bt was effective last year. I would like to know what the minister's position is with regard to the spraying of Bt as opposed to chemicals such as fenitrothion and madisil.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: The words are too big for me. Tell me in French; I do not understand those words.

Mr. Wildman: I do not know what fenitrothion is in French. It is probably the same.

I do not want to raise the concerns of the people in the north, but the minister knows these kinds of chemicals have been sprayed in New Brunswick for some 20 years and they still have the budworm problem in New Brunswick. It could be argued that the problem might be worse if they had not been spraying, but there also have been serious concerns raised about possible side-effects on the people in the areas where the spraying has been taking place.

The minister also responded in his remarks to my comments about the change of name of the ministry. I was not raising the matter in relation to the cost of changing the signs, as my colleague the member for Kenora was; I was raising it in the context of an actual change of direction or a cosmetic change. The minister assured me it was not just a change of name and that it actually meant more than that.

He said in his remarks that I had said it was just a change of name and nothing more. I did not say that. I think the minister missed the fact that when I raised it I was quoting from an editorial in the Thunder Bay newspaper. However, I do wonder whether there is a change of direction. No matter what the minister says, when we are looking at the estimates at this time next year we will have a better idea of whether it is actually a change of direction.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Tourism.

Mr. Wildman: Since the minister raises the issue of tourism, he also mentioned Minaki Lodge in his response to my remarks. He said there was no use in dwelling upon the problems of the past; we should look to the present and the future and the occupancy rates at Minaki were improving.

I welcome the fact that occupancy rates are going up in that lodge, but I think it would be useful, in talking about the future, for the minister to make clear to us the view of his ministry with regard to the possible privatization of Minaki. After all, there is a gentleman under contract to the government who is going around looking at a number of the crown assets and trying to determine whether or not they should be sold. The Premier (Mr. Peterson) has commented that if Minaki were to be sold it would be at a substantial loss to the public treasury. I would like to know this minister's view with regard to the future of Minaki and how it should be operated.

Interjection.

Mr. Wildman: I think it very strange that any Tory would make funny remarks about Minaki. They got themselves into such a hole on Minaki that they did not know how to get out. They started out by trying to save a loss of $500,000 and ended up investing $20 million or $30 million.

These are the people who for so long have characterized themselves as being good managers, understanding business concepts and knowing how to run the province. If there is any evidence of that in Minaki, I would like to find it. I hope the minister will not fall into the same trap as the previous government in throwing good money after bad to try to improve Minaki.

I would like to know whether there is a future for Minaki Lodge. Can it break even? Can it make a profit? If it can, according to the minister, how is that profit calculated? Is it calculated in regard to the capital cost or is he ignoring the capital cost and just looking at the operational cost?

Mr. Sargent: The member for Rainy River stays there every weekend.

Mr. Pierce: That is right. I take all my friends too.

Mr. Wildman: I would also like to know from the minister exactly how many local jobs have been produced at Minaki as a result of that enormous investment of the taxpayers' dollars by the previous government. How many of those local jobs are permanent, year-round jobs and how many of them are seasonal? Of the seasonal jobs, what is their average length of time?

The minister made one interesting comment with regard to the boom-and-bust cycle. In my remarks I have been more than a little critical in that I had thought the minister was basically accepting the boom-and-bust cycle in the northern Ontario economy. The minister said -- and I think I am quoting correctly -- "Surely the member is not suggesting that the government of Ontario can control the international commodity prices." Frankly, that is a silly comment. The minister knows very well I was not suggesting the Ontario government can control the international commodity prices.

Having said that, I do not think that means we should say those of us in northern Ontario communities, the mining communities in particular, are forever doomed to move from an enormous expansion of employment to the disastrous cuts in employment that we have endured over the years.

8:40 p.m.

In my remarks, and the minister should understand this, I said the way to try to deal with these kinds of changes in the international market is to ensure that a greater percentage of the revenue from resource extraction is reinvested in the community to develop a viable economic base so that when the international market threatens employment in the primary sector, other jobs are developed in the community that will mean the community has a future.

So that in contrast to the Ear Falls experience or the Atikokan experience, we can say to the people of Wawa that just because there is a glut of iron ore on the world market today does not mean the 25 years of ore that is left in the ground will stay in the ground and the community of Wawa will disappear, but that there is some other hope for the development of jobs in Wawa. If there is not, if the minister believes that there is not and that we are simply and solely dependent on the international commodity situation, he should state so clearly in this House.

The minister said he believed in a co-operative effort between the public and private sectors. That is what I believe in too. The minister said I was suggesting he should have a heavy hand. I said he should have a heavy hand if that was necessary. I do not believe it should be necessary, if we have a government that has clearly stated its position that there should be a greater return to northerners, benefiting northerners. I suggested the establishment of a crown corporation that would get involved in joint ventures with the private sector; in my view, that is a co-operative approach.

In regard to the other primary resource sector that we are dependent on in northern Ontario, the forestry sector, I am disappointed in what the minister had to say about the so-called independent forestry audit. He suggested I should talk to Dr. Baskerville because, in the minister's view, Dr. Baskerville is very happy with the time frame he has been given and is confident he is going to be able to do an adequate audit.

I have not had the opportunity of discussing it with Dr. Baskerville, but I know my colleague the member for Nickel Belt (Mr. Laughren) has. In my view, the professor is confident he can meet the mandate he has been given because the mandate is too narrow. He is looking, as we have said, at the forestry figures of the Ministry of Natural Resources; he is not going to be able to go into the field and adequately audit what is in the bush. I will not belabour that point, because it has been made well in the past.

The minister said his government does not believe in development by edict or by imposing solutions; he believes in consultation and cooperation. I do not suppose anyone believes in development by edict unless he is Baby Doc Duvalier, and look where he is today. I have said all along that I support consultation and cooperation, and I have congratulated the minister on his attempts to consult with northerners. However, I have also said it might be easier to consult with northerners and to get input from them if the government would make clear what we are consulting about.

The government should make some proposals and say: "These are the options we are looking at. These are the proposals we are making. What do you think?" That would be a better approach than going out to people and saying: "Okay. Have you got any ideas?" I encourage the minister to make some concrete proposals for development in the north so the regional development councils could respond to them. It would be more productive both for the government and for the regional development councils.

The minister basically ended off by saying he saw his role and that of the government as encouraging a good investment climate in northern Ontario. I am not surprised the minister would make that kind of comment, but I must say it is no different from the kind of rhetoric we have been getting from Tories for years in this House. People such as the member for Kenora and the member for Cochrane South (Mr. Pope) have been talking about the development of a good investment climate. The climate in northern Ontario is still as cold and harsh as it has always been.

I do not know how the climate of investment has changed, despite all the rhetoric from members of the Conservative Party, and I do not know how this minister is going to change it by mouthing those same platitudes over again. Even the amount of hot air we produce here does not affect the climate in the north; it just affects the climate in Queen's Park. I will not contribute to it any more at this time.

I hope the minister will respond to my questions and concerns and then, as I said, it will be useful to continue through the individual votes. I have a number of matters I want to raise on specific votes through the estimates.

L'hon. M. Fontaine: Suivant aux questions de mon ami le député d'Algoma (M. Wildman), I too believe the private sector will reinvest in the north if it sees good opportunities and has the money. What the honourable member is saying is correct; there were some boom years and then the investments went elsewhere. Today, however, we have to face the fact that this is 1986 and the profits are not there. However, together, as I told the member when I made all my trips to the north, we have to protect what we have. At the same time, we have to look at other initiatives and activities -- good ore bodies and aggressive junior mines, and the larger companies that were ready to finance the venture; we need more of these. That is the reason I instructed the committee to study junior mine financing in this province. I intend to create a framework for more positive partnership for development in the north.

As a businessman, I can say that we worked with the government and we used the grants that were available at that time. However, as I mentioned to the member for Sudbury East, it is all right to talk about crown corporations and perhaps half and half in the north, but we are forgetting the labour sector.

I would like to see the labour sector in the north get involved, and I wish the unions would understand that. I have been talking about that since 1972. At that time, I was told by Mr. Brixhe that the Ontario Federation of Labour is not prepared to do that. I met with Mr. Brixhe again last week in my office; we had breakfast together. He said Mr. White had just said about the Urban Transportation Development Corp. that those people usually do not go into that kind of venture.

We have to look at Quebec because it is doing it. The Fédération des travailleurs du Québec is one of the most militant unions. We see its members on television all the time calling for a strike. When I was a young man in Hearst with my first TV, there on the six o'clock news was a young Claude Charron, who later became the member for St. Jacques. He was about 16 years old and he was a very militant member of the FTQ. He was always on television with Mr. Laberge or Mr. Pepin.

About two years ago, Mr. Laberge formed the solidarity fund with the province and with the federal government. The federal government put in about $10 million about eight months ago, and we were told that $10 million could be available for Ontario if and when the unions were ready to join forces.

8:50 p.m.

I do not want to brag, but I started to look at new industries in the north in 1956 when I got out of school. I revived the chambers of commerce in Hearst, Longlac, Geraldton, Beardmore, Macdiarmid, Smooth Rock Falls and Iroquois Falls. We went after the province at that time to get an economic council for that area and we had won the battle, but Mr. McKeough decided there would not be one and the government cancelled it at that time.

My company has been unionized since 1955. If we are going to see the small and medium-sized companies survive, and if by a fluke we go into free trade and do not get labour peace, productivity and quality, we are going to be in deep trouble.

I am saying that sincerely about the north. When I come back from my holidays, I am going to try to meet with Mr. Pilkey. I ask my friend to try to arrange a meeting. I would like to discuss this. I am ready and prepared through the northern Ontario regional development program, Nordev, to give a new direction. if the workers get involved, maybe we will get that; I say "maybe" because I need backing from the unions. In the north, lots of unionized companies are coming in, but some are not unionized.

I would like their backing so we get involved together, because if we do not -- there is a reason why in Quebec, just before the election Mr. Landry, who is writing a book now, came out in favour of free trade. He was building the economy there by involving labour in those companies; 107 companies in two years. They are investing in viable companies, such as Thibault and Waferboard; but they not buying the old company, they are putting in money when the company was prepared to expand.

We are going to have to look into this, especially in northern Ontario. We should have co-operation like that with labour and private enterprise.

On crown corporations, my honourable friend talks about Saskatchewan. I can talk about Quebec too. It is not only the feds. The Quebec one -- I am not talking about Asbestos; I am talking about Sogfor and Rexfor. This Rexfor company has pushed almost all the private sawmills out of business in Quebec. They are competing with private enterprise in Ontario. That is very dangerous.

I was in favour of that when the Liberals in Ottawa did it. In my own heart, probably I would like to look into that, but I do not want to. I repeat that I do not want the government to do it alone, I want it to be tripartite; and if we go to tripartite, probably we could have success, such as with the Urban Transportation Development Corp.

I asked people and I talked to labour. I said we should join the three together, but at the end somebody said they would not go. I was told it was one of the union presidents. I am not here to judge, but that is what I was told.

However, there is a role for crown corporations in the north and one that reports to me is the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission. I want to see it even more an instrument of public policy. I told the member and I told his Liberal friend last Friday that right now Ontario Hydro is the key. I want Hydro support and I got backing from the Premier on it.

Last weekend we had lunch with the new president and the chairman of Hydro and we mentioned that Hydro should be and has to be part of the economic tools in northern Ontario. Otherwise, if they are not there, if those two are not prepared to act, as a government we will have to make some change in the act so that those crown corporations will be good co-operative participants in the north. They have to form an integral part of development or we could have trouble.

The biggest question concerns private versus public corporations. I say again that workers, management, investors and government can work together. That is one promise I am making. I am going to fight for this.

I have already met the president of the union. I have already talked to Mr. Rivard and the one at Lambert Sawmills in Thunder Bay, Mr. Guiron. I am prepared to meet others. I am convinced that is the only way the small and medium-sized companies in the north are going to survive in the long term. For this, I need this climate of labour and management working together. It is up to the third party and the official opposition, but especially the third party, to help me. If Quebec could do it when it had a government party that looked like the New Democratic Party, the NDP should get involved with us and try to give a new direction with our unions. As members know, the unions are not all voting NDP or Conservative; some are voting for Liberals. In my riding, I think I had a few votes from union members.

As for the regional development councils, I have to admit I am not yet at liberty to disclose all the details such as payment of members. Cabinet will review my proposal in the next few weeks. I will make all the information available. I have already prepared a general paper on RDCs which I am sending to groups in the north to have them decide on their participation, and I will provide a copy of that paper to my friend.

As for the selection of members, I will choose a list of nominees from groups to ensure that sectors and people in individual regions are fairly represented. I will have ideas to put to the RDCs to get their advice on them. In addition, I know I will get good ideas from them. I have great faith at this point. As in the case of Thunder Bay, I will be asking individuals from the labour movement, chambers of commerce, independent businessmen, educators, municipalities, women's groups and natives. The RDCs, again, are a cross-section.

On the length of the mandate, one reason I went away from municipal advisory committees was that they were working very well in the east. I will not name names, but members will recall there was a chairman of a few years ago under whom MAC worked in the east. I am not talking about the west; it was very bad. However, most of the members sitting in the east, for example, Mr. Martin, lost the election. We need individuals other than politicians.

We will also try to have a system of staggering so that five or six stay and six move on. That way at least we have continuity. I am working from my experience as a businessman and as a politician. That is why I am asking the town councils of northern Ontario to form their own corporations for public housing and for development of economic co-operation. I feel we need that to have continuity. In that way the town is responsible for replacing those people. Again, as far as the regional development councils are concerned, I am suggesting to the towns, as the member saw when he was with me, that we are prepared to help towns of a fair size to organize themselves in economic corporations and to give them leadership in this area too.

9 p.m.

Regarding the privatization of Minaki, this government is prepared to sell Minaki Lodge; in fact, we would prefer to see it in private hands. However, whether or not we sell it, we want to be satisfied that it will continue to make a significant economic contribution to the northwestern region. I am told there are 237 direct seasonal jobs at Minaki, with 12 permanent jobs. In addition, there are three spinoff jobs in Kenora in the service sector.

On the spraying program, the member has spoken on this in the House before. I have spoken on it, and I am going to speak on it in cabinet. That is the line I am using. I never went public on it. I have my own feeling, but I am going to discuss it in cabinet. As the member says, I will be listening to northerners. I do not know all the names he mentioned, but I want to tell him those forests in the north have to survive. I said the bacillus thuringiensis was good last year, but other experts say it was not that good; so we have to take that into consideration.

We were talking about spruce budworm before. We were seeing that in little patches. Two years ago, north of Highway 11, there was none; now that area is full of spruce budworm. That is where I used to cut timber, but I put that interest in a blind trust. Everything north of Highway 11 is full now. Then it was up there a year ago. We had a patch near Hornepayne. We had a patch over here or over there. Wherever there is cutting, between Chapleau and Hearst, the average now is five cords per acre. How long can we go? I will reserve my decision in cabinet.

I remind my friend that we are going to be looking at the social side too. The deputy minister is circulating a statement on priorities. In those priorities, we touch on tourism. First, we are looking at the problem in northern Ontario and we are addressing it. That will be a base for the regional development councils, but first we have to sell those ideas to the other ministries and to the deputy minister.

As the member knows, there was a change in government, but some people still think northern Ontario is barren. That is the thing we have to fight. My deputy minister and the staff of my ministry are doing that. There are a lot of new people, but there are people who have been there for a long time; they think northern Ontario is, as Voltaire said of Quebec, un arpent de neige. As I told my friend today in regard to housing, "It is a new ministry, and we have to show them what the north is all about."

On housing, last year the previous government announced 32 senior citizen units for the area from North Bay to Hearst. Imagine that. We waited for 14 of those 800-square-foot homes. We are still waiting in Hearst. We have the plans. We spent more than $120,000, and we waited all that time for 14 houses. All the nonprofit units went to the big cities. When it came to the end of the line, to places such as Hornepayne, Wawa and Blind River, there was nothing left. However, I was assured by the Minister of Housing (Mr. Curling) that he is going to take a good look at the north. There was a little argument on Friday about North Bay, but North Bay will get its housing.

I will leave it at that. I hope we can work together with labour, with companies and with government to form a new north.

Mr. Lane: A couple of weeks ago when the critics had made their points and the minister was about to respond, I asked for permission to speak and the minister chose to reply to the critics. Unfortunately, I was not available in the House last Friday and I see we are now on vote 801. As I understand it, from being here 15 years, on the first vote it is pretty wide-ranging and we normally can pretty well cover whatever we have interest in. Is that a fact, sir?

Mr. Chairman: It can go one of two ways. Either we can stay on vote 801, item 1, the entire time and range wherever members wish, or apportion the time so we go through each vote and item specifically. It is tending to be the habit to range widely throughout the entire time.

Mr. Lane: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the fact that you have given me this opportunity to respond to some of the points the minister made on January 10 when he started his estimates in this House.

Before going on, I should tell the minister some of the things that my friend the member for Algoma forgot to mention. Back in 1976, following the election, the New Democratic Party had nine seats in northern Ontario, we had four seats and Liberal Party had one, which was Rainy River, held by the Liberal-Labour member. We now look after that but now Cochrane North is Liberal; so nothing is much changed except that now we have nine seats and they have four.

Back then, I was promoting a Ministry of Northern Affairs and the party to my left was very much opposed to having a Minister of Northern Affairs. The record will show members that.

Mr. Wildman: I would have been in favour of it if the member for Algoma-Manitoulin had been the minister. The fact was that he was not the minister.

Mr. McClellan: That is right. We insisted on the member for Algoma-Manitoulin.

Mr. Lane: So be it. Even the former leader of that party decided to take me to task one morning in this House. I can remember the cartoon in the Sudbury Star the next day, saying: "Minister of Northern Saskatchewan, Minister of Northern Ontario. If it works here, why does it not work there?" He was standing on his head in a sand box and I was standing there with two placards.

So my colleagues of the day, who my friend the member for Algoma forgot to mention, referred to me as the father of the Minister of Northern Affairs, and I have been very proud of my son. Over the years this gentleman, the Minister of Northern Affairs, has done great things for us. Even though the minister has decided that he should change the name to Northern Development and Mines for political purposes or whatever reason I am not aware of, I still feel I am the father of this ministry. Without my efforts with the former Premier, the Honourable William G. Davis, the minister probably would not be sitting here and maybe I would not be standing here.

Mr. Wildman: Is the member proud of the fact?

Mr. Lane: As an older man in this assembly, I feel quite proud of the fact that whatever the minister calls himself, I am the father of whatever it is.

Mr. Wildman: Is this a legitimate birth?

Mr. Lane: In all fairness, I will have to admit that since we changed places last June, the minister has followed through and I think he is doing a commendable job in northern Ontario. We are not playing politics here at all; we are just playing straight facts. I wanted to put the record straight because my friend and colleague the member for Algoma did not make that point about 1976.

Mr. Wildman: If I had known it meant that much to the member, I might have.

9:10 p.m.

Mr. Lane: He admits that now.

Going back to the minister's statement of January 10 when we opened these estimates, on page 7 he is talking about the northerners and about their quality. He winds up by saying: "From my experience, northern people are hard workers. They are independent, entrepreneurial and want to stay in the region. They will not move away from the north unless there is no alternative."

The minister is right on. I am a northerner. I am proud to be a northerner. I do not intend to move away from the north. The minister can give us those alternatives, because over the years we basically have had to depend on the Northern Ontario Development Corp. to supply funding for whatever industry an entrepreneur may decide he should create or help create in northern Ontario.

If a young chap coming out of university wants to go into business in northern Ontario, whether it be the tourism business or whatever, it may cost $250,000. He and his father may be able to come up with about $50,000, but he has to go to NODC, apply for a loan and agree to pay that back over a period of time.

He is the only guy on the line. The government should think of joint venture projects. If this man has a good proposal that is going to cost $250,000 and he can put $50,000 on the line, then the government should come in with the other $200,000 and follow the money with management.

I have been here a long time and this is what happens. I see it happening. Some guy comes out and looks at someone else who has been a success. He says, "By God, I want to do that." He makes an application and gets his money but he does not know how to manage it. So he loses his money, the government loses its money, and everybody is unhappy.

If the government were to go into a joint venture with that chap, it could follow its money with some management for three or four years, whatever time it takes to make it into a profitable operation. Then it could back out and take its money and he is the owner; but he is going to be successful. The government has not lost any money, he has not lost any money, and we have the jobs in northern Ontario. That is why I agree with the minister that entrepreneurs in northern Ontario have no reason to leave the north. They should not have to leave the north, because the opportunity is there. It is up to the minister to make that possible. I think he can and will.

I would like to go to page 23 of the minister's statement on January 10. He said: "Another step we have taken to give northerners more control over their own economy is the creation of the committee on resource-dependent communities. The committee, under the chairman" so-and-so, will report back and tell us how we are going to resolve this one-industry problem.

The minister is on the right track. There is no question about that. He and I both know that in northern Ontario the problem is that we have one-industry towns. If the mineral or whatever runs out we have a big investment there and people want to stay there, but there is nothing left for them.

I wish the minister and his committee every success. He is on the right track. Again, we shall have to help finance those secondary industries that are going to take the pressure off the one-industry towns. There are a lot of opportunities. We have resources that are not being used.

As I pointed out earlier, the trouble is that when a young guy comes out of university he does not have the money that is required to invest in these opportunities that will provide secondary industries in towns such as Espanola or Elliot Lake in my riding, or many other towns in northern Ontario. He has to have some support from the government. Again, I suggest a joint venture is the right way to go. The government can supply the additional capital and the management to make sure it will be a successful venture. Then we would have a man who had invested his money wisely employing people in northern Ontario, and the government would get its money back. I think we have answered that problem.

Turning to page 43, we are talking here about world tourism growing fast and we want to make sure that Ontario increases its market share. I could not agree more with the minister. According to the information I had when I was parliamentary assistant to the then Minister of Industry and Trade in the better years -- as I like to refer to them -- our statistics indicated that by the year 2000 the hospitality industry would be the largest industry in the world. If that is the case, we have to grab our piece of it right now.

I have to agree with the minister that in my part of the world there is nothing that will enhance our economy more than getting involved in the tourism business, but there are problems. One of the problems is that when our tourists come to visit us during their holidays they like to drive on nice roads. We have some problems with the roads in my riding, and I am sure in the minister's riding and in many other ridings in the north. We have to improve the roads.

Not too many years ago, I brought in a private member's bill that said tourist operators who operate only four or five months of the year should have some kind of tax rebate. Even though this House was in support of that motion, it never came to pass. If we are to encourage people to get into the tourism business, which is a very short season at this point, we have to look at the benefit of giving them some tax relief because they invest their money and have only three or four months a year to recoup some return on that investment.

Beyond that, one of the most important things to do is improve the fishing in northern Ontario. Not everybody fishes, but for the majority of the tourists who come to the north, number one on the agenda is fishing. Over the years, our fishing has not improved, and in my area it has become somewhat depleted.

When we look at what our Minister of Natural Resources is doing to restock the fishing in the north and when we look at Michigan, which is right across the other side of Lake Huron, we see it has a multimillion-dollar fishery and here we are just stumbling around wondering whether we should or should not, whether the water is too cold, too hot, too shallow or too deep or whatever the hell the problem is. They solved the problem for us. We now are catching the salmon on our side that were planted on the other side of Lake Huron.

What are we doing? We are still standing with our hands in our pockets; we have not taken any initiative. That is a multimillion-dollar industry in northern Ontario. We should not have to depend on Michigan putting some fish in the water and hope they are going to swim across to the other side of Lake Huron, but that is what is happening right now.

We are benefiting from their experience. I hope the minister will look at that and talk to his friend the Minister of Natural Resources and make damned sure we start to plant those species. We talk about the water being too cold or too hot, too shallow or too deep, or whatever, but in Michigan they have proved that is not the case and they are able to offer their tourists a variety of fishing. It is a multimillion-dollar program in Michigan; why can we not have it in the Ontario? There is no reason. It is the same lake and we are on the other side of it.

9:20 p.m.

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to tax you beyond the point of no return, but I would like to turn to page 54 for a moment. We are talking about agriculture in the north, the difficulty that is facing the farmers, the best prices and so forth.

The minister should talk to his colleague the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Ridden). I have asked him a few questions in the House in the last few weeks. I am sure the Minister of Northern Development and Mines will agree that the basic red meat production in the north is the cow-calf operation, basically because we are working on marginal farm lands and we can produce a lot of pasture for the cow-calf operation in the summertime. We have to produce some hay to get them through the winter, but we are not a grain-growing country.

The minister has told me there is no help for the cow-calf operator in the north for 1985 production; yet if we look to the provinces in western Canada, all of the provincial governments in western Canada have cow-calf support operations.

I am sure the minister will agree with me, both of us being the family men we are, that the project starts with the baby. If we have no baby, we have no program. If we have no calf, we have no beef industry; yet just a couple of weeks ago the minister said if a chap bought some cattle and kept them for 60 days or more, he is entitled to cash in on the stabilization agreement that has now been signed by the federal government. That is for 60 days or more.

The cow-calf operator has to keep that heifer calf for at least three years before she has a calf and another year before he can sell the calf. We are talking about three or four years of money being invested. He is paying out big money for fertilizer, seed grain, gasoline and all of the other things he needs to run his farm for four years.

A guy can buy a cattle beast that weighs 1,000 pounds, keep it for 60 days and be entitled to some support on the stabilization program; but the poor guy who has had his money invested for three or four years is left out in the cold.

I have more than enough farmers phoning and saying, "I will go and work for somebody else because there is a lot less hassle over there." If we have no cow-calf operation, then we have no beef program in this province because it all starts with the baby. It always has and always will.

I will not ask the indulgence of the House for much longer. There is one other remark I would like to make on the minister's original statement in the House, in which he said, "I intend to use part of the northern development fund to provide financial assistance to the native economic development activities."

I have eight Indian reservations in my riding, and these people are very clever people. They have not had the opportunity to move ahead the way they should have. We will have to talk to the federal people because basically it has been between the federal people and the native people, but for one reason or another they have not been able to cash in on the opportunities that we and other people have.

One of the reasons that comes up every time I make an application for native people for a tourist grant or for a grant to develop some industry is that they do not have a deed to their property, it is only leased. The minister and I know that is the name of the game. On the reserve one does not get a deed to one's property, it is leased. The band has approved that this piece of property belongs to a person for his or her lifetime and he or she can go ahead and use it.

Unfortunately, we have been using that against the native people and saying, "We cannot very well give you a grant or a loan because you do not own the property you are now living on." I am saying that a lease on an Indian reservation is the same as a deed in other places and I do not think we should discriminate against our native people for that purpose.

In recent weeks I had an application from an Indian reservation for some assistance to develop a tourist operation, a trailer park, a convenience store and all the other things tourists expect to have when they are in our part of the world. I have also had an application for some assistance to start a shingle mill.

Cedar cannot be used for pulpwood, but in my part of the province, and I am sure in others, there is an abundance of cedarwood; yet to my knowledge, we are not producing any commercial shingles or shakes in northern Ontario. We are buying them all from Quebec or British Columbia. These are all produced with union labour and there is a cost of transportation to Ontario or to my riding. Surely we should support the people who would like to get into the business and be competitive with Quebec or BC. We have the resources. All we need is some assistance to the entrepreneurs who want to do something but have not got the kind of dollars it takes to put this into operation.

I appreciate your indulgence, Mr. Chairman, in allowing me to make these comments on the minister's original statement under vote 801. I would like the minister's response.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: To comment on the joint venture, in reply to the member for Algoma-Manitoulin, the idea has merit. We will be reviewing the northern Ontario regional development program and programs of the Northern Ontario Development Corp. through the committee of ministers for northern development. We will have our first meeting tomorrow with the ministers, but the deputy ministers have been meeting for a long time.

We are working together to be sure that NODC and my own new Nordev will be open to joint ventures, not only in this direction but also together with the new deputy minister and my staff and the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Technology; we are looking at other areas. We want to make sure the entrepreneur has a real stake in the success of his ventures.

I go along with my friend from Algoma-Manitoulin when he says that probably in the past we missed a few places where we could give money to entrepreneurs. I do not want to name names, but there was one who was a very good inventor, a good welder, but when he had all the money from the province and the feds he became the manager and it did not work out.

Seven years ago I went to a seminar in Port Carling where about 10 people sat looking at all the programs from all provincial governments. Most of them went belly up because there were no managers. I shared that with my deputy minister a few months ago. When the people from Nordev come to my office, we will probably have to look from now on when we give an amount of money to be sure the entrepreneur who works with his hands stays where he should. Maybe we should give him the money to hire a good manager. I am going to take that into consideration because I have had the same feeling in my mind since the late 1970s.

9:30 p.m.

On tourism, I do not know whether you were here, Mr. Chairman, or the member for Algoma-Manitoulin. My ministry this year is putting up $4,675,000 compared to $1,859,000 last year. We are proving we are serious about tourism. That is only the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines.

When my friend the Minister of Tourism and Recreation (Mr. Eakins) was in Elliot Lake last week he told the people about his budget. I do not know, but somebody said the amount of money for tourism was lower, but that is not true. It may seem lower because probably there was some other thing that was in it.

It is like mine. They took away some. If I do not buy those double-deckers, they will take away $10 million.

The money from the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation is there and we are putting more there too. It is to show members we are serious and I am serious when I talk about tourism. It is going to help us probably to bridge what we have today and what is coming tomorrow. We need all this to survive.

Last Friday I visited the area of Mattawa and North Bay. I saw some nice skiing. This is the kind of attraction I am speaking of. Sometimes I am accused of giving too much hope to the people. I am not giving too much hope. I said the people in northern Ontario and the tourist people need an attraction for skiers. We are going to look seriously into this. This is an issue we have to look at and try to develop. In summer we need other attractions, such as the zoo at Earlton, where this year 29,703 people visited. We need more attractions like that. We are going to have to help them to add those attractions.

The future of tourism will be families travelling and we need those attractions for those people. I am referring to my nice Polar Bear Express. I want to assure members and my friend from the island that one of these days we are going to have a real polar bear in Moosonee because people go there to see a polar bear. There is no polar bear. People go there to see James Bay. They cannot see James Bay.

There are only a few things made by the Indian and native people and the rest is made in Japan or Hong Kong. From now on I am going to give money only to people to add a tourist store where I am sure they will sell products from the area or from Ontario. This is one thing I am saying I will try and do and I am serious about it.

As far as the roads are concerned, I am glad this question was asked of me by a good friend of mine, because when I looked at the budget not too long ago, I did not say to him I was in fairly good shape. I could not understand why they let those roads of northern Ontario go down the tube like that. I was told by the people from Ministry of Transportation and Communications that just to hold our own in northern Ontario we need $10 million more. That was not in their budget, the budget they made.

This year, without arguing with Management Board or Treasury, I added $3 million more; but I am going to go back to try to get at least another $5 million to $6 million to try to hold our own. I was told that has been going on for about 20 years in northern Ontario.

If we look at the budget of the province, it was $225 million or $235 million before, but last year it was $146 million. They said they gave us everything.

Mr. Wildman: That is Conservative restraint for you. That is what Conservative restraint did for the province.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Do not laugh about those roads in northern Ontario. How many times have members been to northern Ontario? That is the truth. Look at Bending Lake where they spent $23 million. Ask my friend the member for Rainy River. However, there was no end at the end. Now I look at their program. Do members know when Bending Lake will be finished? In 1992. Is that very good planning? By that time they will have spent $30 million and still it will have no exit. We will try to push that up from 1992 to 1987. That is a commitment. I do not make promises.

People in the south take their highways for granted; but we will have to ask how are we going to get out of Toronto in the near future. People in the south should tell me how they will get out of their towns to go to the airport. The previous government let those budgets go.

Maybe I am only a small jobber from Hearst, but for me a road is an investment for a country or province. If the companies reduce the price of fuel in the future I am prepared to say, though I know it will make people mad, add another one cent of tax and put that money into the roads of this province. If we do not, we will not get out of Toronto. They are going to build that big stadium. The tourists we are talking about will not go to the north or other places because they will have trouble.

It will take $40 million per year for the next 10 years to put the rural roads in northern Ontario back in the condition they were in seven years ago. That is not our doing; that was someone else's doing. It is the same with our highways. I am going to do my best. I am going to put in $3 million more, but I will try to get more. I have discussed it with my friend the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Fulton).

Mr. Wildman: We have been snowed on roads for too long.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: That is why they called one the James Snow Parkway.

My colleague was talking about agriculture. I understand what he is saying. Last week the Minister of Agriculture and Food met with people at Englehart. There were some cow-calf producers there. His ministry is looking into it. They are going to be in the program this year. His officials use the word "kick-off." They say the cow-calf price was higher. I do not know; that is what they told me. I have to believe what the minister tells me. If he says no, we will have to look into it. They are going to be covered. The parliamentary assistant told me that.

On native economics, I agree wholeheartedly with my friend the member for Algoma-Manitoulin. I came here when I was the mayor of Hearst and brought my native friend from Calstock because he had no money to travel. We travelled on my credit card. We used to come to see my friend René, not René Piché but René Brunelle. It was bad; we were crying. He cried too because the people, especially on the coast, were in very deep poverty. Mr. Chairman, you were there with the Ombudsman and you know what I am talking about. However, he used to say: "That is not our problem. That is the federal government's problem."

Last year at this time, the Premier made a commitment in Moosonee to the native people that they will be part of this province and we will work together. I met with Mr. Crombie last week. Together, this government and the one in Ottawa will try to give them a new way of life or a new light at the end of the tunnel. I assure my friend the member for Algoma-Manitoulin we are going to look after that. They are part of this province. For too long we have been talking about Ottawa. Now we will assume our responsibility and we are doing so.

9:40 p.m.

The new committee of Indian affairs is meeting every two weeks and the Nishnawbe-Aski nation and the other native people are very satisfied. They are satisfied because we are serious. As a member from the north, I am serious. When I see how those people have been treated, I think maybe we will burn for that. I am serious.

To take the children out of their homes at 14 years of age, bring them from the north and throw them into North Bay and Timmins is close to criminal. We would not let that happen to our children. After that, we say they do not graduate and they drink, etc. We had a hard time with our own son. They go to the big city from Hearst. They go to Ottawa. The first year they all fail. They are 20 years old. If one took a young boy or girl at eight, 10 or 14 years old, one would bring them up fine. Something went wrong, so we are going to try to rectify that. We are going to try to follow what was recommended by Mr. Fahlgren on the schools.

I discussed that with Mr. Crombie. We discussed an economic pool. Now our chiefs are going to take the airplane every month and go to Manitoba to get that money. When they come back after three or four years, they have no money. Those guys spent more than $15,000 to go to Manitoba to present their case. I told Mr. Crombie to raise some money together with the provinces and form a pool that could be administered as is an Ontario Development Corp. loan, by people who know how to manage it. At the same time, they will have a say as to where the money should go.

This is the direction we are taking with the native people on the economic issues. On those issues, we are the same. We are going to treat them as Ontarians. If they come up with some money, I will not ask them where it came from. I do not care if it comes from Ottawa. We will try to help them through the northern Ontario regional development program and through others.

For example, when I was at Big Trout Lake, the chief told me about his plans for a senior citizens' complex. He said, "I will have to cut $85,000." He was cutting out the common room. I said: "Do not cut the common room. If you cut the common room, you might as well not build the senior citizens' home at all." My ministry decided to help them and we are going to pay for the common room. This is a new direction we are taking.

Right now we are studying the electrification of the reserve. This has never been tackled before. The natives were told it was Ottawa's problem. However, this new government, the Premier, the Minister of Natural Resources, Ontario Hydro and myself are going to attack that. I will not say "attack." That is a French word. We are going to look into that.

We are working with terms of reference and we will be looking at electrification from Moosonee to Attawapiskat. At the same time, we are looking at other reserves and other modes of electrification, because they put in only a small diesel and then they cannot even put in one or two lights. If they establish a motel or a resort they need more electrification. This is another area where we are looking at their development.

I know what my friend the member for Algoma-Manitoulin is talking about. I was there two or three times and I met with the natives he is talking about. I am sure that together and with some good studies we can look at their problem. The member was talking about the tourists, and the shingle mill. They tried a shingle mill in my area and it was not very good because the cedar was fragile and split too much. I am sure in the member's area he has better cedar than in the swamps. Again, I discussed that with him previously. I brought it up three or four months ago when I was on the island. The man who has the sawmill should make a proposal and we will look into it.

I touched on most of the areas the member mentioned. I want to say I am committed that the native people of this province will be treated equally. I am also committed that our highways in the next few years will be back in good condition. I am going to fight for that.

Mr. Wildman: I have a couple of matters. I am not sure; are we going into the individual votes? I have some questions I was going to raise on the individual votes, but if we are going to run out of time, I will do it now.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: We still have 17 minutes after tonight.

Mr. Wildman: Just to correct the new math of my friend the member for Algoma-Manitoulin, there are seven Conservatives and seven New Democrats in the north, not nine and seven, and one Liberal. I do not know where he got his extra member.

As I said, if I had known how important it was to the member to have me mention the fact that it was his idea to establish a Ministry of Northern Affairs when he was the only member of the Conservative Party who was not a member of the government benches, then I would have done it. It has been mentioned in the House before; however, as the member was pointing that out to try to ensure that everyone in the House was aware of it because I had not mentioned it, I will raise a matter that comes under the purview of this minister in his responsibility for mines. This is a matter that should have been raised by the member for Algoma-Manitoulin but was not; it is the health and safety of workers in the uranium and gold-mining industries.

The minister might argue this comes under the occupational health and safety branch of the Ministry of Labour, but I would like to know what position this minister, as the minister responsible for mines, is prepared to take on the miners in the uranium and gold mining industries. Studies indicate they are suffering levels of cancer much higher than those in the general population and that, up until a few years ago, they were inhaling a substance that was supposed to protect them but was discontinued because it was suggested it was ineffective. It now appears that not only was it ineffective in protecting them but it was also harmful.

What is the minister going to do to ensure, first, that those miners, and the widows and the children of the miners who have died, will get the compensation they deserve; second, that his government moves now rather than waiting for three years -- as his colleague the Minister of Labour (Mr. Wrye) has indicated it might do for further studies -- to adequately protect the miners now in the industry so they will not continue to operate with the possibility that more of them are going to succumb to cancer? What will he do to ensure that a health centre is established in Elliot Lake as the United Steelworkers of America have requested, so the men and women now in the mining industry can be monitored to ensure they do not contract cancer and die in the numbers being predicted by the year 2000?

Why did my colleague the member for Algoma-Manitoulin not raise that issue rather than the matter of who suggested the establishment of the Ministry of Northern Affairs in 1976? It might have had more relevance to some of the people who live in both my riding and his riding who are affected by these serious problems in the mining industry.

I am going to raise a number of issues because I doubt we are going to get to the individual votes, item by item, until we actually finish off. So I will raise a number of the matters that I would have raised in that fashion.

In response to the member for Algoma-Manitoulin the minister mentioned the need for a highway and improvements to highways. I point out that we in the north have 36.9 per cent of the roads of the province -- I would like the minister to confirm these figures if they are correct -- and, as I understand it, we have had only 21.5 per cent of the capital construction under the previous government and only about 27 per cent of the maintenance budget was spent in the north. It does not seem to make sense. If we have 37 per cent of the roads, why we are getting only 27 per cent of the maintenance budget? If that is correct, perhaps it explains why the member for Algoma-Manitoulin needs to have better roads in northern Ontario.

In his remarks, the member for Kenora appeared to be opposed to the proposal made in the accord between the New Democratic Party and the Liberals to have an inquiry into gasoline price differential. I may be misinterpreting what he said, but since we are interested in transportation, I cannot understand why a member of this House from northern Ontario would not be interested in finding out why there are the anomalies in retail gasoline prices that we have experienced across northern Ontario.

I would like to know about the inquiry that has been carried out by the Ministry of Energy. I see the minister here. Where is that inquiry at? I asked a question about this, and I understand the minister said that by the end of the session we would hear about what has happened.

9:50 p.m.

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: We gave the member all the information beforehand.

Mr. Wildman: Okay, that was my question. If the information the Deputy Minister of Energy gave us at the end of November at our meeting is the sum total of that investigation, then in my view it does not fulfil the commitment. I want to know whether we are going to move from that preliminary investigation, which is what I consider it to be, to an actual, full fledged inquiry which will hold hearings across northern Ontario. I want to know whether that is going to be the responsibility of the Minister of Energy or the Minister of Northern Development and Mines.

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: We will do it together.

Mr. Wildman: I do not care how it is done as long as it is done, and as long as the commitment is fulfilled so we can get the input from northerners that the Minister of Northern Development and Mines has been talking about over and over in these estimates. Then we will know the views of retail dealers, the trucking industry, the people that operate the buses, small business people across northern Ontario and consumers in general. We will then have a better idea of what they perceive to be the problems and some idea how we can respond to those problems.

With regard to forestry and mining, the Liberal Party in its platform for the election campaign made a number of commitments. They said they would "provide for the regeneration of all cutover lands and the backlog of unsatisfactorily restocked crown lands. This would ensure adequate supplies to meet current demands and allow future expansion." They said they would "greatly increase the current regeneration program to meet our wood supply target."

I would like to know what the Minister of Northern Development and Mines is doing to encourage the cabinet to fulfil that commitment -- the minister did not like to use the word "promise" -- on the part of the Liberal Party in this province.

I realize that when these commitments were made the Liberals never thought they would be the government, but I would like to find out what they are going to do now that they are the government.

They also said they would "establish a consistent and continuous forest species inventory to record species, maturity and climatic conditions." What is happening with that? They said they would "place a priority on increased research and development in support of forest renewal and intensive forest management and increase funding for the forestry schools, such as Lakehead University, which are facing severe budget cuts at a time of greater demand for silviculturists."

They also said they would "control the cutting practices of lumber companies to eliminate wasteful cutting practices and encourage greater utilization of allowable cuts." They noted there was "scope for increased use of hardwoods in pulping manufacturing."

I would like the minister to tell us what he is doing to meet those commitments by the Liberal Party.

With respect to mining, we have already talked about the commitment to set up a separate ministry of mines. We will not go into that again.

The minister has sent me a picture of a white pine. It is very nice.

Mr. Ramsay: It is the provincial symbol.

Mr. Wildman: It is the provincial symbol. It is ironic that we establish the white pine as the provincial symbol in this province just about when we have destroyed all the white pine stands across the province.

Despite all of the comments by the minister in these estimates, the Liberal Party said they would "provide for increased secondary and tertiary processing of ores mined in Ontario." What about Falconbridge? What is the government doing about Falconbridge? I want the minister to fulfil that one commitment. I do not want to list them all; I am just picking out a few.

In relation to agriculture, the Liberal Party stated, and I know my friend the member for Algoma-Manitoulin --

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Ask David. He is very satisfied.

Mr. Wildman: Dave is satisfied. I am glad to hear that.

In 1981, there were 3,715 farms in northern Ontario, which was a decrease of 10 per cent from 1976. That was three per cent higher than the decrease across the province. In 1981, 48 per cent of the northern farm land was improved, which is much lower than 75 per cent of the improved land in the province. Thirty per cent of the farms in northern Ontario had sales of less than $2,500 in a year; the provincial average is double that. Twenty-one per cent of the farms in the north had sales of $25,000, when 43 per cent of the farms in the province had sales in excess of that amount, more than twice as many.

In January 1985, 31 per cent of the northern farmers were in arrears of loans to the Farm Credit Corp., which was considerably above the provincial average of 20 per cent. Northern Ontario has three million acres of unused crop land.

In response to this situation, which I think is approaching a crisis, the Liberal Party made a number of commitments. They said they would "ensure better marketing of northern agricultural products through the creation of a central distribution system in the north" and they would "amend the crop insurance program to allow the establishment of an insurance scheme whereby those farmers who have crops planted over several parcels of land can buy coverage on each parcel." Has the new proposal done that? I do not think it has.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: It is coming.

Mr. Wildman: It is coming. Okay; when?

I would like to know from the minister what he is doing to ensure that these commitments to northern Ontario are met.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Everything.

Mr. Wildman: The minister is doing everything.

This is an interesting one. This reminds me of the proposal of the member for Cochrane South for a food terminal in Timmins, which never came about. The Liberals are going to "finance studies" -- they can do that all right -- "to determine the feasibility of the development of a meatpacking plant in the north, with the aim to offset higher costs of transporting animals out of the region for slaughter and transporting the meat back to northern supermarkets." When is the study going to be announced?

The Liberals also said they would "undertake increased research for the development of crop varieties and management practices in light of the limitations imposed by the climate and the soils of northern regions." When can we expect the announced increase in funding for the college? Is it New Liskeard? That would be the place to carry out these studies.

The minister talked about tourism and Hydro. I will not mention them because of the time.

In closing, I would like to move to the health and social sectors that the minister mentioned. As the minister is aware, we have a tremendous need for professionals in the north. The percentage of doctors per capita in the north is much lower than in the rest of the province. In the rest of Ontario there is one doctor for every 550 people, although it runs to one for every 928 people in some places. In northern Ontario we have one doctor for every 1,200 people, and we have even a greater shortage when we talk about specialists.

We have a tremendous need for psychiatrists, speech therapists, surgeons and obstetricians, and we have a sincere and tremendous need for professionals in the health care and social fields who can speak French, who are bilingual.

10 p.m.

In response to this serious problem, the Liberals said in their policy document, "In addition to the current programs to induce doctors to practise in the north, internship spots will be promoted for qualified foreign-educated and local doctors who agree to practise in designated areas in the north."

When does the minister intend to announce this program?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: It has been announced.

Mr. Wildman: The Minister of Health (Mr. Elston) announced his program on travel assistance, and he also said he was going to try to attract more professionals to the north, but does that include the internship spots or not? Maybe I missed something; I am not sure. We really have a serious problem. I will use my own area as an example.

The average starting salary in Ontario for a speech therapist is $34,000 per year. The pay range that is allowed for in the budget of the Algoma District Mental Retardation Service is only $22,500 to $25,300. Even the top salary for a speech therapist in our area is approximately $9,000 less than the average starting salary for a speech therapist in the province.

How on earth does the minister think we are going to attract speech therapists to our area with those kinds of figures? Obviously the Ministry of Community and Social Services has to commit more money and the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines has to do something to ensure the money is there so that we can get these services into the north.

The average earnings of a mental retardation counsellor in Sault Ste. Marie are between $15,600 and $17,400. The Ministry of Community and Social Services will fund at a rate of only $7.58 for the Algoma District Mental Retardation Service, but a counsellor with the same qualifications, working for a ministry facility, gets paid $10.50.

Will the minister please explain to me why it is that the government will pay its employees doing the same job $10.50, but will fund the agency that is delivering the service in the north only $7.58? If they continue that, how on earth does he expect to attract the professionals we need in the north? They should be paid more in the north, not less.

There are 1,293 psychologists in Ontario, according to my figures. Only four of them live and work in Sault Ste. Marie and Algoma. Right now, the Algoma District Child and Youth Services is attempting to find a clinical psychologist and it cannot recruit one; it cannot find one. This has been going on for years.

I talked to the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Sweeney) about this and it seems to me that one of the approaches -- and it is just one -- has to be the level of remuneration. I do not think the proposal that was made by the Liberal Party or the statement that was made by the Minister of Health when he announced the very much needed travel program for which we had campaigned for so long -- and that the Liberal Party had committed itself to, and that the Conservative Party for so long refused to do -- is going to do enough.

Frankly, what we need in the north is some professional schools. I know it is going to cost an awful lot of money, it will be a tremendous investment and we are going to run into an awful lot of opposition from the schools in southern Ontario, but until we get some schools and a teaching hospital in the north -- I do not care whether it is in Sudbury or Thunder Bay or Timmins or wherever -- we will not attract enough northern students. If we attract the northern students to southern Ontario facilities, most of the graduates will end up staying in southern Ontario after they graduate and take their internships.

The minister should know that in Sweden the development of post-secondary education was the complete opposite of the development in northern Ontario. In the north we developed a number of general arts faculties and eventually expanded that into professional schools where it was possible. It operated the other way in Sweden. They started first by identifying what professionals they needed in their north and they developed schools to meet that need; first the doctors, then social workers, then engineers. That was 20 or 30 years ago.

We cannot go back, but I think we have to move in this direction or we will never be able to provide the professionals we need in the north. In the interim we have to do something about the salary levels and the funding from the government. I implore the minister to make it clear to Management Board of Cabinet and members of the cabinet committee that unless we can fund and do all we can to recruit and bring professionals to the north, despite his commitment for improvement in social services and health care, northerners will continue to suffer below-average and inadequate services in the communities of northern Ontario.

I hope the minister can respond. I will yield the floor and not take up any more of the members' time, making it possible for others to participate.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: In response to my friend, the member for Algoma, we know that agriculture has been a great problem. The Minister of Agriculture and Food has heard from farmers in northern Ontario and from other places and he told them that he will respond and I am confident he will. Since he took over the ministry, we know the results and there is more to be done.

I like to see that my friend is reading the Liberal program. Perhaps he will vote Liberal too. The member is right regarding medical travel. We announced we were moving in that field in June of the year before when the member for Hamilton Centre was Sheila Copps. I used to tease --

Mr. Wildman: She copped our program.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: When the leader of the third party came to Hearst that fall, Ms. Copps had already announced it, but he said he was there first. While we are talking about specialties, next year's budget signals a commitment to health and social services in the north including specialists. We plan to provide some bursaries and more initiatives for specialists under the underserviced-area program in 1986-87.

I too am very concerned about a safer and cleaner work place in the mines. I will do my best to see that the work place is safe and clean. I have asked my officials to report to me on the issues raised by the member. I am confident that I and my colleague the Minister of Labour will pursue the issue as quickly as possible.

10:10 p.m.

Mr. Lane: I thank the minister for his remarks in reply to some of the remarks I had made. I think we are both singing from the same hymn book. He is more in tune and I am singing louder, but he is missing some verses; that is the unfortunate part of it.

Getting back to the farmers, and my friend the member for Algoma raised this as well, these people are leaving the land every day and going into some other line of business, so the minister had better talk to his friend the Minister of Agriculture and Food. For some reason or other, and I have asked this question several times in the House, there is no assistance for the cow-calf producer for 1985 production. Yet our western provinces have that kind of support. The minister had better talk to his colleague.

He should also talk to the Minister of Natural Resources, who was here a few moments ago and has gone. In Michigan they have a multimillion-dollar tourist business because of their fisheries. Our people are saying the water is too cold or too deep or too shallow -- whatever -- but there is just the lake between us. Some negotiations have to happen here in cabinet.

I do appreciate the minister's comments. Getting back to some of the comments the member for Algoma made about the uranium miners in Elliot Lake, this is in my riding and I can tell the minister that back in 1971 when I was first elected there were about 9,000 people in Elliot Lake, and now there are about 20,000. I attended the Ham commission hearings which were set up by our government. We were a majority government back in 1971. We set up the Ham commission and we looked at this problem.

I arranged for the wives of working miners to come down to Queen's Park and meet with the various ministers and talk about the problems their husbands and families were having. I am still going to the Workers' Compensation Board and dealing with these claims. Let the member for Algoma look after his own damned riding. I will look after mine, thanks very much; we are doing it very well.

Mr. Wildman: A number of the miners live in my riding.

Mr. Lane: A while ago somebody mentioned colours and said green is a good colour. Green is sort of drab and red is very hard on the eyes, but there is nothing better than a true-blue colour. Who can beat that?

The spraying program has become a very serious problem with the jack-pine budworm, the spruce budworm and the gypsy moth. I think it is time we looked at the various chemicals that are used in addition to bacillus thuringiensis. I do not want to discourage anybody or get anybody upset about using chemicals, but we do have to protect our forests and I am sure we can do it and still do it safely by using certain chemicals. What I do want for the people out there is to know that what we are doing is safe and they are not going to have uneasiness about their families or their future. I would ask the minister to make sure people are aware of the safety of the program.

Talking about gasoline prices, nobody knows better than the member for Algoma that back on February 22, 1978, I was the guy who brought in the private member's bill to try to equalize the price of gasoline across this province. Unfortunately, it did not wash, but I still think it was not a bad bill.

In any case, I do appreciate the response the minister made to the various things I brought up in my comments and I will tell him, I am a northerner, he is a northerner and we are not going to allow politics to get in between us. If we can make life better for northerners, then God bless us both. There is no problem between him and me on that part.

Getting back to our native friends, I was pleased to hear him say he was prepared to try to make it easier for them to get involved in some of these programs that otherwise they have not been able to get involved in. As I pointed out before, there are Indian reserves in my constituency. They are good people. Their lifestyle is different from mine, but who am I to dictate to them that they should change their lifestyle? All I want to do is try to improve the quality of life on the reserves. With the minister's help, I would be pleased to work with him on that.

There are other comments I could make, but there are other members who would like to speak tonight. Time is getting on. The minister mentioned he got up at five o'clock this morning, and it has been a long day. I can appreciate that, since I got up at 5:40 a.m.; I will split the difference with him and make it 5:20. As far as I am concerned, unless somebody has other objections, I am prepared to pass vote 801.

Mr. Harris: I know we are running short of time and I understand quite a few members want to ask questions. I would not mind asking a couple of brief questions. I apologize for not being able to be here throughout all the estimates. I am not sure whether the custom is to ask one question and wait for an answer and hope to get the floor back, or should I ask all the questions in the event I might not get the floor back?

Mr. Chairman: You would be wise to ask all the questions. The minister will write them down or memorize them all.

Mr. Harris: You might have difficulty getting through the estimates tonight if that is your approach, Mr. Chairman, but there is always tomorrow.

Before I ask the questions, I would like to refer to the estimates book and read a couple of things. On page 9, under ministry administration, it is stated that one of the goals is "to carry out effective advocacy, on behalf of the people of the north, with all ministries, agencies and boards to ensure that northern needs and conditions are fully taken into account when government decisions are made."

On page 14, under analysis and planning, it is stated that the branch maintains "close liaison with policy groups in other Ontario ministries and with Treasury and Economics on regional economic development issues in particular."

On page 15, a function under information services is "to provide information to Ontario government ministries and legislators to familiarize them with northern Ontario and the needs of its residents in order that other ministries can respond appropriately within their policy areas."

I mention those three things because I have a couple of questions that involve other ministries of the government. Having quoted from three places in the estimates where it is stated that the purpose of this ministry is to be an advocate for all the people of northern Ontario, to co-ordinate activities with other ministries in northern Ontario, I think some of the activities carried on by other ministries are important to this ministry.

10:20 p.m.

One of my questions has to do with the northern travel allowance of the Ministry of Health. The minister will know that chiropractors are not included in the program the Liberal government decided to bring forward. The minister ought to know, or I will inform him, there are many chiropractors practising in northern Ontario who have occasion to refer patients to specialists in southern Ontario. Because they are not included and they cannot sign the forms for the referrals, two things happen. Either the patient goes ahead with the referral, sees a specialist in Toronto and pays his own way; or, if he wants to get his way paid, the chiropractor can refer him to another medical doctor and the Ontario health insurance plan will have to pay the cost of his getting around the restriction that is in place.

I ask the minister responsible for northern Ontario to look at this. Perhaps it has been looked at and he can respond today. If that is the case, I would appreciate an explanation as to why chiropractors are not able to refer to medical specialists in Toronto. If he is not able to respond, I ask him to look into that to see whether that would make more sense.

I have discussed this with my colleague the member for Cochrane South, who informs me it was his intent that this should be covered under the plan introduced by the previous government.

Second, I will refer to something the minister said in response to one of the other questions on education dealing with our northern natives. He mentioned that he thought it was disgraceful, disgusting and terrible that natives from communities such as Attawapiskat and Fort Albany had to leave their communities and go to centres such as Timmins and North Bay to receive secondary education.

I ask the minister to confirm whether it is his intention that high schools be built in Fort Albany, Matachewan, Attawapiskat and in the various communities there. If one has to be built somewhere, which may be fair, is that the approach he prefers. Does he see some value in many of the young native students seeing something of the outside world beyond their bands in those small communities they inhabit in James Bay?

I want him to look at that in the light of whether he feels the reason they need a high school education, if obtained at a high school built in Kashechewan, is that they will carry on and live in that community, or whether he feels the goal of continuing education is not to give them a little bit of a look outside their communities and an opportunity to be able to live, grow up and be part of a slightly larger community than the community they live in.

Having quoted the three sections of the estimates that I did, I am also very interested in the involvement the Minister of Northern Development and Mines might have had with housing policies in northern Ontario. The Minister of Housing has recently announced several new initiatives. Most of them appear to be rehashes of existing programs.

One of them was a program called Renterprise. I hope the minister will be aware that I raised with the Minister of Housing last Tuesday in his estimates the Renterprise program and the basis for selection of areas of the province that would be designated eligible for this new $75-million program. It appears to be the only significant new housing initiative the government has come up with other than tightening up rent controls and extending them to other units.

Since it is a program of major significance, $75 million, I raised it with the Minister of Housing. He referred it to some official, who informed us -- and if the minister wants to check, it is in Hansard of last Tuesday -- that it was basically a rehash of a former very successful program that was out in 1984. That was the reason they came up with it. It was successful for the previous government and they thought it would be successful for this government, but they made a change. They said it was targeted more to specific areas. Indeed, it was different in that way. Whereas the program by the previous government applied to all of Ontario, this specific housing program applied only to designated areas.

The minister might know that areas such as Mattawa -- where he was on Friday -- Parry Sound, Sturgeon Falls, North Bay, Kirkland Lake, Timiskaming and the Tri-town areas are not included in this program. It is part of what the Minister of Housing said was assured housing for all of Ontario, but many of these areas were not included. When I pursued that a little further, I was told what the main criteria were. If the minister will check in Hansard, they said the main criterion was the vacancy rate. This is on the record from the officials of the Ministry of Housing.

What bothered me was that the North Bay vacancy rate is 0.2 per cent, Sudbury is 0.6 per cent and Timmins is four per cent. Timmins is in the program, Sudbury is in the program and Sault Ste. Marie is in the program at 0.6 per cent. The problem in North Bay is three times worse than in the Sault, three times worse than in Sudbury and 20 times worse than in Timmins. I was intrigued, and perhaps the minister can tell me, because I was not able to get the figures for Cochrane and for Hearst, because they are not available from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp, whether Cochrane and Hearst are in the program.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Moosonee.

Mr. Harris: Was Moosonee in the program as well? Yes. Perhaps the minister could explain to me what representation he, as the Minister of Northern Development and Mining, made to the Ministry of Housing to include municipalities in northern Ontario. Perhaps he could explain why no municipality between Timmins and Muskoka on Highway 11 was included. Of course, he would not be surprised if I was specifically concerned that North Bay, with a 0.2 per cent vacancy rate in the city, one of the lowest vacancy rates in all of northern Ontario, one of the lowest per capita incomes of many of the communities and one of the longest waiting lists for subsidized housing, was not included.

I ask him what representation he made? If it was not that extensive and if the Minister of Housing rushed the whole bejabers through cabinet to get it announced, I ask that minister to go back and look at it and make a representation on behalf of those areas of northern Ontario that are not included in a program that is supposed to provide assured housing for all.

I do have a couple of other questions, and since I know we have another 18 minutes or so perhaps I had better get them all on the record, bearing in mind the Chairman's advice that if I do not do it now I might not get back on my feet.

I am interested in the minister's comments on speed limits in northern Ontario. He will know that a number of municipalities have commented on speed limits on the highways in northern Ontario. I am interested in what the minister feels, representing northern Ontario, and whether he has an opinion on whether it should be looked at, or just his thoughts on it.

Finally, I would like to ask about the spraying of chemicals on northern Ontario forests. I ask that because one of my colleagues from the New Democratic Party asked him a question in this Legislature and the minister did not answer it. He referred it to the Minister of the Environment. That was not acceptable to my colleague. I believe it was the member for Nickel Belt who asked for what we commonly refer to as a late show.

When my colleague the member for Nickel Belt raised it, he indicated that he understood where the Minister of Natural Resources and the Minister of the Environment were coming from; however, given the three sections of this minister's estimates that relate to his involvement with the other ministries, that relate to his involvement on behalf of the people of northern Ontario, the member asked for the minister's opinion, he wanted to know what he felt.

That evening the minister said it was none of our business. He said it was not the business of the member for Nickel Belt, it was not the business of myself, the member for Nipissing, and it was not the business of this Legislature.

Mr. Chairman: I have to interrupt the member for Nipissing at this point. It is 10:30 p.m.

Mr. Harris: Mr. Chairman, there are still 15 seconds left according to my watch.

Mr. Chairman: No, it is 10:30 p.m.

Mr. Harris: Mr. Chairman, 15 seconds would allow me to finish. If not, I might take considerably more time. I ask you to weigh my clock versus yours.

Mr. Chairman: If you are going to finish in 15 seconds, and if it is the unanimous consent of the House --

Mr. Harris: My clock says 15 seconds.

Mr. Chairman: -- to finish these estimates --

Mr. Harris: If there is not, that is fine.

Mr. Chairman: Excuse me. Do we have that 15 seconds? Yes, we do. There seems to be unanimous consent that there is another 15 seconds for the member for Nipissing if he wishes to use them.

Mr. Harris: Summing up in the last 15 seconds of my remarks, this Legislature is entitled to ask the minister his opinion on chemical spraying in northern Ontario. It is his mandate for the people of northern Ontario, according to three pages and sections I read in his estimates. When we reconvene to hear these estimates, I would appreciate it if the minister would respond to the four or five questions I have raised.

Mr. Chairman: Is there the unanimous consent of the House that the votes and items of these estimates be taken at this time?

Mr. Harris: No, I am sorry.

On motion by Ms. E. J. Smith, the committee of the whole House reported progress.

The House adjourned at 10:34 p.m.