The House met at 10 o’clock, a.m.

Prayers.

Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure this morning to draw to the attention of the House that there are students here from Glen Forest Secondary School in Mississauga, Peel South, together with their teacher, Mr. Stroud. Would you join me in welcoming them here this morning?

Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview): Mr. Speaker, I draw to your attention that in the east gallery there are some 35 students from Dufferin Heights Junior High School, accompanied by Mrs. J. Foote. I would ask you and the members to welcome them.

Mr. Speaker: Statements by the ministry.

INQUIRY INTO DUMP TRUCK OPERATIONS

Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications): Mr. Speaker, in response to a question by the hon. member for Kitchener (Mr. Breithaupt) on April 7 relating to the dump truck industry, I undertook to make a further statement to the House on a temporary moratorium on the issuance of public commercial vehicle licences, and to comment on the status of the inquiry.

On Feb. 7 I advised the House that I was not satisfied that a moratorium on licences would be in the public interest, and I have again reviewed this matter. If there is a surplus of trucks available in Metropolitan Toronto, that is not necessarily the case in other parts of Ontario. We are approaching the construction season, which will bring increased demands for trucking services, and I am very concerned that construction projects could be delayed, at least in some areas of the province. I am also concerned that such action could prejudge the issues on which the inquiry commissioner has been appointed to inquire and make recommendations.

I am advised that the commissioner of the inquiry is receiving submissions daily and there is public notice being given through the daily press scheduling the hearings to be held. At this time, the commissioner anticipates completing the series of hearings to be held by the middle of May, and he will be reporting to me the results of the inquiry immediately thereafter. In these circumstances, it is not my intention to impose a moratorium on the issuance of public commercial vehicle licences to dump trucks.

The first public meeting of the commission will be held in Toronto beginning April 21. The hearings, to be held at the MacDonald Block, Queen’s Park, will continue through April 2 and beyond that date if required.

Public hearings outside Toronto will be held in London, Ottawa, Sudbury and Thunder Bay, and upon request in other centres convenient to the parties concerned.

I would like to emphasize at this time, Mr. Speaker, that the commission wishes to hear the views of all those in the dump truck industry who have recommendations concerning the present system for licensing and control and how these might be improved. I particularly urge independent truck owners to take advantage of the opportunity to express their views.

Mr. Speaker: Oral questions.

The member for Kitchener.

ECONOMIC PROSPECTS

Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener): Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Treasurer. Will the Treasurer be revising his budget forecasts, including his deficit forecast, now that the federal government has indicated that real growth in Canada this year will be zero rather than the unrealistic 2.6 per cent assumed in his budget?

Hon. W. D. McKeough (Treasurer, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): No, Mr. Speaker. Those figures of Mr. Turner’s were basically available in one form or another and have been for two or three months. The report of the conference board and others are generally following a similar pattern. It would be our hope, of course, that the stimulative measures taken in this year’s budget by the Ontario government and similar expansionary efforts in other provincial budgets would play a part in speeding up the economic recovery.

Mr. Turner, of course, has now conceded what others conceded earlier: that we do have a recession; that we had flat growth in the latter part of 1974, if not a decline in growth in this first quarter of 1975. He has indicated that he will be bringing in a budget sometime in May with which, if he has the good sense to he as expansionary as Ontario is in its policies, the economy should move forward.

Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth): A supplementary.

Mr. Speaker: Supplementary. The member for Wentworth.

Mr. Deans: Can the minister indicate whether, in light of the statement by the Finance Minister of Canada that the economic prospects for 1975 show a stagnation in the economy and that things would be very slow in 1976 it might be more advisable to deal with it now and to extend whatever benefits he has extended to the public throughout the entire fiscal year rather than just to the end of this current year, in a hope that maybe it will stretch into a period of upturn?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: Mr. Speaker, the member’s leader was concerned earlier in the week about the size of the provincial cash requirements. I think it would be highly irresponsible to concern oneself, as the House leader of the New Democratic Party is, with those cash requirements on Tuesday or Wednesday of this week, and then on Friday, on the basis of what everyone has known and which Mr. Turner said on Thursday -- although he has known for some months -- to extend the tax cuts further into the future.

Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South): Is Mr. Turner correct or is the Treasurer correct?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: They can’t have it both ways over there. They must get with it.

Mr. M. Shulman (High Park): Neither can the Treasurer.

Mr. Deans: Can the Treasurer explain, using any responsible fiscal position at all, how he can justify tax cuts for only nine months? How can he justify saying the economy will show an upturn in the final quarter of this year, which flies in the face of all wisdom? How can he then turn around and tell us he can’t really afford the tax cuts for the full year? If he can’t afford them for 12 months he certainly can’t afford them for nine months.

Hon. Mr. McKeough: Mr. Speaker, I’m not sure there was a question there but again I would suggest to my friend, the House leader of the New Democratic Party, if he would sit down and read the budget he would find --

Mr. Deans: I have read the budget. I read the budget very carefully.

Hon. Mr. McKeough: -- that it is our hope and our expectation that by the last quarter if not the last half of this year, the economy will be turning up and the tax cuts stimulation will not be --

Mr. Deans: Based on whose views?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: I would ask the member to read the conference board report, the Howe report, the Economic Council report and what Mr. Turner said on Thursday.

Mr. Deans: The Treasurer is the only person in the world who thinks it is going to take an upturn.

Hon. Mr. McKeough: Read what Mr. Turner said on Thursday -- “We can look for recovery in the last part of this year.” That is generally conceded.

Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce): A supplementary?

Mr. Speaker: The member for Grey-Bruce.

Mr. Sargent: In the budget statement the Treasurer said he would amend the budget position if the oil talks did not go the way of the government.

Mr. Speaker: Order please. It must be a supplementary on the original question.

Mr. Sargent: This is supplementary to it. We’re talking about the Treasurer’s visit to Ottawa.

Mr. Speaker: It doesn’t seem to be up to now. If you make it supplementary, fine.

Mr. Sargent: Mr. Speaker, if these jokers can go to Ottawa and talk down there, we have a right to know here what’s going on down there.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: Oh, go on home.

Mr. R. K. McNeil (Elgin): Resign.

Mr. Sargent: I am asking a question and I want to know the answer.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is becoming a debate. Does the hon. member for Kitchener have further questions?

Mr. Sargent: This is supplementary to this question.

Mr. Speaker: Would you make it a supplementary by rewording it?

Mr. Sargent: All right. The Treasurer in his budget statement said that he would be amending his budget if the oil talks did not go his way. Would he define the amendments he plans to give us then?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: Mr. Speaker, I said no such thing in the budget to my knowledge. I’m not sure what the member means by the oil talks going our way. I would simply say that the objectives of Ontario under the leadership of the Premier (Mr. Davis) and the forceful position taken by this government ensured that the talks on Wednesday and Thursday of this week were completely successful from Ontario’s point of view and provide the kind of leadership which this country needs.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. A final supplementary from the member for York South.

Mr. MacDonald: The Ontario budget was predicated on the assumption, and in fact its whole thrust was on the assumption, that there would be a pick-up at the end of this year and the budget was to help that. Now Mr. Turner says that our economy is not going to pick up, and indeed it will be sputtering on into 1976. How would the Treasurer reconcile that? What’s right, his assessment or the Turner assessment?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: I would suggest the member examine Mr. Turner’s statement a little more carefully. He certainly indicates that the economy is in trouble and has been in trouble, which is exactly what we said in our budget and which had not been conceded by the federal government until Thursday. Stimulation was necessary, the kind of stimulation which was taken by this government on Monday night.

I think it is reasonable to say that the economy will not be percolating at the fullest levels of employment and the highest rates of productivity on Oct. 1, 1975, or on Jan. 1, 1976. It may well be Jan. 1, 1977, before we are back to completely full employment, and before everything is in the best possible shape. What Mr. Turner said on Thursday certainly doesn’t change our views as to what was necessary in the budget on Monday night.

Mr. MacDonald: Has the Treasurer a copy of the full text?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: I would be glad to get the member a copy. Mr. Turner made two statements.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Kitchener.

UNIVERSITY ADMISSION REQUIREMENTS

Mr. Breithaupt: I have a question of the Provincial Secretary for Social Development with respect to the reports of comments made by the Minister of Colleges and Universities (Mr. Auld) in the press today. Is the minister expressing government policy when he says that university admissions should be restricted, based on an elitist concept, rather than places provided for those students of ability who can benefit from university education?

Hon. M. Birch (Provincial Secretary for Social Development): Mr. Speaker, in reading the review I would suggest that those remarks made by the minister were his own personal remarks. Any further questions should be referred to him.

Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River): What does the provincial secretary do? She hasn’t answered a question since she got that job.

Mr. Breithaupt: Further to that point, whether they are his remarks or not, if the standards have been somewhat less than the ministry expects, do these not relate to the operation of the Ministry of Education throughout the 1960s which has allowed those problems to arise?

Hon. Mrs. Birch: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the member direct these questions to the Minister of Colleges and Universities when he’s in the House.

Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur): Supplementary; Mr. Speaker: Does the provincial secretary agree with the minister in his comment that it would be all right for a millionaire to send his dumb-bell son to university if he were financing the whole thing?

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: Or he could run as the member for Port Arthur.

An hon. member: He would probably win.

Mr. Deans: For the Tories. He would be well suited to run as a Tory for Port Arthur.

Mr. MacDonald: That would be pretty cheap.

An hon. member: He would have to be a socialist to run as a millionaire.

Mr. Foulds: Is the minister not going to answer my question?

An hon. member: It was a dumb-bell question.

Mr. Foulds: I asked her if she, as the secretary for policy in the area, agreed with that statement.

An hon. member: Why not?

Mr. Speaker: No answer. The hon. member for Kitchener.

ENERGY PRICES

Mr. Breithaupt: A question of the Minister of Energy, Mr. Speaker: In keeping with his concern about rising gas and oil prices, is he now prepared to empower the Ontario Energy Board to control prices internally within this province?

Hon. D. R. Timbrell (Minister of Energy): Mr. Speaker, in point of fact, the Ontario Energy Board does, through the rate review process dealing with three major distribution companies, do just that.

Mr. Reid: I have a supplementary. Will the minister make provisions so that the price of gas and oil, not just natural gas but gas and oil, will also come under similar review, similar to the legislation that exists in Nova Scotia?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, I know that -- I guess it was in the last session -- certain members had private bills before the House to do that. I’ve carefully reviewed the information from Nova Scotia and I’ve compared it to the Ontario situation. In point of fact, we in Ontario enjoy as good prices as in Nova Scotia. I do not plan to impose any further bureaucracy.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. member for Kitchener.

YOUTH AND THE LAW PROGRAMME

Mr. Breithaupt: A question of the acting Solicitor General, Mr. Speaker: Is it correct that the Youth and the Law Programme which was run last summer is not being offered this year; and since it proved so popular last year why is that the case?

Hon. J. T. Clement (Provincial Secretary for Justice): I don’t think that it’s been completely discontinued per se, because we are in the process of taking on students in the Solicitor General’s ministry this summer. The numbers are available and I’ll get them for the member. We are also taking same on in the Attorney General’s ministry.

If the programme is changed from the name of Youth and the Law, I am still willing to take staff on. I don’t know the reasons for the change in the programme but we are still taking on students. As a matter of fact, I’ve got a number of requests in my office right now for law students to identify with either the Solicitor General’s ministry or the Attorney General’s ministry.

Mr. Breithaupt: Since this programme was basically one that, as I understand it, involved young people working directly with police forces more particularly than perhaps within the ministry, was there any pressure or any unhappiness on the part of the police officials with the operation of the programme as it then was?

Hon. Mr. Clement: No, there was no disenchantment whatsoever, as far as I am aware.

LIQUOR LICENCE ACT

Mr. Breithaupt: A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations: Can the minister advise us as to the status of his ongoing review of the liquor licence legislation and when we may expect to receive a new Liquor Licence Act in this province?

Mr. Singer: In the fullness of time.

Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations): A constructive suggestion may be to tape both the question and the answer, because they’ve been used so often in this House. The review is continuing, and I hope to be able to make a statement to the House in the near future.

Mr. Singer: It has been continuing for years.

Mr. Speaker: A supplementary, the member for High Park.

Mr. Shulman: Is it not true that the revised bill has been passed by caucus and the minister now has it ready to present next week?

Hon. Mr. Handleman: Mr. Speaker, I will have a statement to make to the House in the near future -- hopefully in the near future.

Mr. Singer: We might see a liquor bill in the fullness of time.

Mr. MacDonald: Is this second-guessing the caucus by the cabinet?

Mr. Speaker: The hon. member for Wentworth.

HOUSING PROGRAMMES

Mr. Deans: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Housing. Can the Minister of Housing identify anywhere in the province where there will be houses available for purchase by people earning less than $10,000 a year in 1975?

Mr. Singer: They will be available, but the people can’t afford them.

Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, I can’t specifically identify any particular area. I would assume there would be some areas where families earning less than $10,000, or up to $10,000, can purchase a home. I said yesterday that I didn’t think that it would be possible in urban areas. It’s quite possible, in my opinion, that this might happen in rural areas.

Mr. Deans: Supplementary: Could the minister indicate in which rural area of the province there is any major housing effort being undertaken?

Hon. Mr. Irvine: Mr. Speaker, I wonder what the member means by a major housing undertaking.

Mr. Deans: More than 100 housing units.

Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George): Build a house.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: Mr. Speaker, the member for Wentworth has no idea about housing whatsoever. He keeps harping and harping about housing starts. He proved yesterday that he couldn’t add two and two when he tried to say that we would only have 45,000 starts in Ontario in this coming year. We do know that there are housing starts throughout rural Ontario and in urban communities. It’s absolutely ridiculous to stand up and waste the time of the House with a question like that.

Mr. Foulds: The minister doesn’t think housing is important? Why does he waste the time of the House with an answer like that?

Interjections by hon. members.

Mr. Deans: The minister is doing a great job. He doesn’t even need the Housing Ministry portfolio; he’s destroying himself with his own mouth.

Mr. Speaker: Question?

Mr. Deans: I would like to ask the Minister of Housing if he can explain how he anticipates reaching a level of 85,000 housing units in the Province of Ontario, when the housing starts in urban Ontario last month were only 2,258.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: Mr. Speaker, I guess this is going to be a daily occurrence. The member for Wentworth asked the same question yesterday. I’m telling the member that he just doesn’t understand that the housing starts for January, February and March do not project themselves in the same way for the rest of the year. We’ll have many more starts in the remaining nine months. Certainly we will achieve, as I anticipate right now, at least 85,000 starts. But you can’t relate to January, February and March, Mr. Speaker, and I told the member for Wentworth that yesterday.

Mr. Singer: Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary --

Mr. Deans: Supplementary question.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Wentworth with his supplementary first.

Mr. Deans: Would the minister be prepared to table in the House the lists of housing starts that he is now assured will take place in the Province of Ontario during the remaining 8% months that will make up the 85,000?

Mr. J. M. Turner (Peterborough): Doesn’t the member know that?

Hon. Mr. Irvine: Mr. Speaker, I’m not prepared to table anything for the reason that the member for Wentworth asks so many stupid questions. It’s almost impossible to table something you’ can’t definitely foresee, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Deans: The minister is not making it.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Downsview. A supplementary?

Mr. Singer: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. If the minister won’t table any information for the member for Wentworth, could he perhaps inform me and some of the rest of us as to what the projection might be for the months April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November and December?

Mr. Shulman: He doesn’t know.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: Mr. Speaker, the member for Downsview certainly knows full well what I have said. At least he can understand that I have indicated to the House that we expect to achieve 85,000 starts in the calendar year.

Mr. Foulds: Flattery will get him everywhere.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: If we have not had the anticipated starts in January, February and March, then we will have many more starts in the remaining months of the year. I think that’s pretty simple to understand.

Mr. Speaker: Any further questions?

Mr. Shulman: How many?

Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale): How many?

Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore): Don’t overestimate the minister.

Mr. Deans: I have a question for the Minister of Housing, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister of Housing indicate how many of the 11,137 families and senior citizens who are on the waiting list can expect to be housed in Metropolitan Toronto this year? Those are the ones on the waiting list. How many can expect to be housed in Metro this year in new government programmes?

Hon. Mr. Irvine: Mr. Speaker, at this particular time I don’t anticipate any new government programmes. I’m going to proceed with the same programmes we had last year. I expect that they will work very well if we have full co-operation from the municipalities and from the people directly affected by the programmes. Now as to the actual number, I can’t tell you at this time, Mr. Speaker, but I’m going to make sure that we have as many people housed in Metropolitan Toronto as possible.

Mr. Deans: Supplementary question: Since we’re not going to get any new programmes, how many of the 11,137 senior citizens and families who are currently on the waiting list in Metropolitan Toronto does the minister anticipate will be housed under the old programmes?

Hon. Mr. Irvine: Mr. Speaker, I don’t know what is the matter with the hearing of the member for Wentworth. I’ve already said that we’re going to have as many people housed in Metropolitan Toronto as possible. I can’t tell him right now and give him a definitive answer. If I could, would he understand it anyway?

Mr. MacDonald: In other words, the minister doesn’t know.

Mr. Lawlor: He is just being evasive. He doesn’t know his own programmes.

Mr. Speaker: Order please. A supplementary from the member for St. George.

Mrs. Campbell: We’re now referring to those people who are on a waiting list, senior citizens and families. Would the minister now tell me, since he indicated yesterday that for families the programme was limited dividend, could he tell me what the current rental is in limited dividend projects as of now, if that’s his solution for the poor?

Interjections by hon. members.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: Mr. Speaker, the member for St. George knows full well that there is more than one programme. I said that yesterday.

Mr. Turner: She wasn’t listening.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: The rents depend on each particular project.

Mr. MacDonald: Is the minister suggesting she is stupid too?

Hon. Mr. Irvine: I would think that the hon. member would understand that every project hasn’t got the same rental scale. In any event, what we have for housing in Metropolitan Toronto --

Mr. Lawlor: Nobody understands.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: -- depends on the Metropolitan Toronto Housing Authority proceeding with senior citizens housing and with the city of Toronto and other boroughs accepting housing throughout the entire area. I can’t give the hon. member an answer as to how many people are going to be housed, but I certainly expect that we will have the cooperation of all the municipalities that are involved.

We have had continuing talks with Metropolitan Toronto and with the city of Toronto. We have favourable indications that we will be proceeding with senior citizen accommodation and with rental accommodation this year, with a very large number of units. But, I can’t say how many at this time.

Mrs. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: I wonder if the Minister of Housing knows the definition of limited dividend housing, since he has evaded that issue on each occasion.

Mr. Speaker: I suggest that that was not the theme of the first original question, with all respect.

Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent): Why doesn’t the minister answer the question?

Mr. Speaker: As with the last question, if the minister has an answer for the hon. member I’ll allow him to give it.

Mr. Turner: She doesn’t know the question.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: I would like to answer that question if it is a question. I went fully through the limited dividend programme yesterday, if the hon. member was here. If the member had listened --

Mr. Sargent: Answer it now. What is he getting paid for?

Hon. Mr. Irvine: -- she would have known that I said it was a 15-year mortgage with rent stabilization and an eight per cent return; and the rents can be escalated according to the inflation factor. Does the hon. member understand that?

Mrs. Campbell: Yes, I do. I understand that clearly.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: If the hon. member doesn’t I will write her a letter about it.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. member for Wentworth.

METRO TORONTO HOUSING

Mr. Deans: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Housing. Does the minister agree that there will be 537 fewer units built under all of the Ontario Housing programmes than represented by the need already expressed for housing in Metropolitan Toronto? Is he aware that there will be 537 fewer houses built in the entire province that there is a need for as indicated by the waiting lists in Metropolitan Toronto alone?

Hon. Mr. Irvine: No, I don’t accept that, Mr. Speaker. I am saying that there will be as many housing units built by this government as possible. The figure will be finalized at the end of our 1975-1976 fiscal year. To say right now that we will have less than what we need to meet the waiting list in Metropolitan Toronto is a very premature statement.

Mr. Deans: It’s true.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: We don’t know at this particular time how many units will be built either in Ontario or in Metropolitan Toronto.

RENT INCREASES

Mr. Deans: Unfortunately, it is true. I have a question of the Minister of Housing. Is it true that a person who has a question about rent increases need only write to the minister and he, in turn, will write to the landlord and will then relay the answer back to the tenant as to why the rent increase occurred?

Hon. Mr. Irvine: No, it is not true, Mr. Speaker. I have said before that we will investigate some of the situations. I certainly don’t intend to be a rent review board myself.

I have indicated to the House that we are trying to determine whether or not some of the rent increases that are brought to our attention are realistic, whether they should be decreased or whether the leases should be extended. This is what we are trying to do.

Mr. Deans: Supplementary: Is the minister aware that that is the information being given out by Mrs. Churchill in his office to people inquiring with regard to rental increases which they feel are unjustified? And secondly, when the minister finds rental increases are questionable, what does he do?

Hon. Mr. Irvine: Mr. Speaker, I’ll go over the whole ground again.

Mr. Deans: I heard the minister the first time.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: What I said before is that we do ask the owner of the property to substantiate why he wanted to have the rent increased and why he wanted to have the lease of a shorter nature than usual. We have found out sometimes in doing so that we have been able either to assist the tenant by having a decrease in the rent that was proposed or a lengthening of the lease. In some cases we found that the rent increases were quite justifiable and we have then gone to the tenant and said why we thought it was in order.

Mr. Deans: One final supplementary question: What are the criteria that the ministry uses for establishing justifiable rent increases? Would the minister mind tabling those so that we can apply them universally?

Hon. Mr. Irvine: Mr. Speaker, I will not table what I have used as criteria. However, I would be quite happy to tell the member what I have done. We have to take into account the increase in maintenance costs, we have to take into account the increase in taxes if there is any, and we have to take into account the rate of return that should be acceptable to the owner.

Mr. Deans: What is that? What does the minister consider acceptable?

Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development): Let the member ask his leader. He thinks values have gone up 100 per cent in five years --

Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury): The provincial secretary has been into the Geritol again.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: -- when it comes to the sale of his house. If he were renting would he expect the same 100 per cent increase --

Mr. Speaker: Order please. The member for Downsview has a supplementary.

Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food): It’s the same deal. It’s hard for the NDP members to have their cake and eat it too.

Mr. Singer: Can the minister tell me how he conducts his investigation if the landlord refuses to give any information? Is there any compulsion he can exercise? He knows he can’t.

Hon. Mr. Irvine: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to tell the hon. member that up to this date there has not been anyone who has refused to give me the information.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Grey-Bruce.

OIL WINDFALL PROFITS TAX

Mr. Sargent: Mr. Speaker, a question of the Treasurer: In view of the fact that the oil companies are enjoying the biggest profits in history and if oil prices go up the price of gasoline goes up in Ontario, does the minister plan to offset this increase to the Ontario taxpayer by instituting a windfall profits tax?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: No, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Sudbury.

HYDRO JOB APPLICATIONS

Mr. Germa: Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Energy: Is the minister aware of an advertisement in the Globe and Mail, April 1, 1975, by Ontario Hydro listing vacancies in the Bruce heavy water plant? Why would Ontario Hydro direct that the resumes by applicants for these jobs should be directed to post office box 4078 in Buffalo, N.Y.? Why does Ontario Hydro have to employ a foreign post office to receive applications from Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker. I will investigate and report back to the member.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Maybe the mail is quicker.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Downsview.

QUESTIONING OF RAPE VICTIMS

Mr. Singer: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Attorney General. Could the Attorney General advise whether any instructions are being given to Crown attorneys who are acting in rape cases to protect the complainants along the lines suggested by a number of people, including particularly Mr. Justice Haines in an article that he wrote for Chitty’s Law Journal?

Hon. Mr. Clement: Mr. Speaker, for some number of years, Crown attorneys have been advised to communicate and discuss matters with complainants in rape cases, to advise them of their rights and to object if the matter in their opinion is not relevant and is only extremely distressing to the complainant in a trial.

I did read the article yesterday, in the Globe and Mail I believe. I agree with the first two items dealt with in that particular article. I do not agree with the suggestion that in the event someone refuses to answer that the contempt procedure recommended by the writer of that article be initiated by the Crown attorney. I don’t agree with that and by the way the member framed his question I perceive that perhaps he doesn’t agree with that either. If the judge rules it relevant, then I think it should go in.

Mr. Singer: In view of the minister’s answer, will he then update the instructions to Crown attorneys, because in my experience many Crown attorneys are not aware that these instructions have been given to them over a considerable number of years.

Hon. Mr. Clement: Yes, I will discuss it again with my law officers to make sure that it is again brought to the attention of the Crown attorneys. It is a very delicate thing.

Mr. Singer: But very important.

Hon. Mr. Clement: It is. It’s very important -- you know, the member and I are getting along too well together. Something may have gone wrong. There may have been a catalyst to assist us --

Mr. Singer: Something might have happened.

Hon. Mr. Clement: Yes.

Mr. Singer: The member for High Park.

LOAN SHARKING

Mr. Shulman: A question of the Attorney General, Mr. Speaker: In view of the large number of accidental deaths of people involved in the loan-sharking business in recent months in this area and the fact that there is probably going to be another one within the next few days, has the minister given some consideration to holding a royal commission into this particular problem to bring it under control?

Mr. Reid: He should start with the chartered banks.

Hon. Mr. Clement: I didn’t hear the last part of the question.

Mr. Shulman: A royal commission; what does he think of it?

Hon. Mr. Clement: Oh; I’m disappointed. I’ve been waiting for this question all week. I understood the member was going to ask it on Monday and I came here on Monday to see him.

Mr. Shulman: The minister was low in the priorities.

Hon. Mr. Clement: And on Tuesday; I hung around all day Wednesday and I didn’t even see him around the House.

Mr. Speaker, the member for High Park suggested a royal commission with reference to the racket known as loan-sharking, which has been the subject of some comment in the media in the past few weeks.

It would not be in the best interests of the province and the people of the province or the enforcement of law to have such a royal inquiry at this particular time. There are certain matters which are being looked into and being investigated and a royal commission at this time would seriously interfere with the proper investigation of those matters.

Mr. Sargent: Why doesn’t the government start on the chartered banks?

Hon. Mr. Clement: It may be of some value later on, I don’t know, but at this particular time it would not be in the best interests of the people of this province.

Mr. Shulman: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Has a recommendation come from the intelligence section of the Metro police that there be a royal commission?

Hon. Mr. Clement: I read a report some days I ago -- two or three reports -- and I’m trying to recollect whether they did suggest that. I don’t think they did. I stand to be corrected on that but I don’t think they did.

Mr. Shulman: Read them again.

Hon. Mr. Clement: I was interested in the member’s comment that somebody was going to be killed. It wouldn’t be anybody on this side of the House, would it?

Mr. Shulman: Mr. Speaker, may I ask one final supplementary: Does the minister know the name of the man who’s going to be killed?

Hon. Mr. Clement: Yes, the member gave it to me prior to the opening of the House. I think he’d have a definite interest in that information and I suggest the member call him and tell him, too.

Just one more item, Mr. Speaker, if I may. I’ve been advised by my staff that the intelligence report which came in from the Metropolitan Toronto Police did not request the royal commission.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. member for Rainy River.

THERMAL GENERATING PLANT IN ATIKOKAN AREA

Mr. Reid: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Energy. Can the minister indicate the timetable for the proposed thermal plant in the Atikokan area? Can the minister assure me that the Environmental Assessment Act will apply to that, in that that body will investigate the environmental aspects of the thermal plant there?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, after a lengthy public participation process in that part of the province, Ontario Hydro recommended to me, I guess about a month ago now, that approval be given to purchase a site at Marmion Lake, near Atikokan. If the government gives them that approval they will begin a further public participation process which will involve, of course, an environmental assessment by their own staff, which will eventually be subject to review.

Mr. Reid: I am sorry. Pardon me, Mr. Speaker, I couldn’t hear the last part. The minister said by their own staff?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: They have or will prepare -- I’m not sure if they have prepared it yet -- assuming they get approval to go ahead with this particular site, an environmental assessment. As the member probably knows, we’ve heard from a number of Americans about environmental concerns there. I think we’ve had one letter from a Canadian, and about 30 or 40 from Americans.

Mr. Reid: The minister can disregard the 30 or 40.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: They raise legitimate concerns which are concerns of the government and should properly be concerns of Ontario Hydro. The environmental assessment would be prepared by Hydro staff and I’m assuming it would eventually have to be heard by a competent board.

Mr. Reid: May I ask the minister very quickly, by way of supplementary: Can he give us any indication as to when this will go to cabinet and when we’ll know for sure that the approval has been given by the government?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: In the fullness of time, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Sargent: He’s just an office boy. Hydro tells him what to do.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside.

PLUTONIUM HAZARDS

Mr. F. A. Burr: (Sandwich-Riverside): Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Energy, of which I believe he has received notice. Is the minister aware of the recent discovery that British scientists and technicians who handle plutonium, the radioactive byproduct of nuclear plants, are at least seven times, and possibly 20 times, more likely to die of leukemia than anyone else?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member refers to notice; I haven’t had notice and I haven’t seen that report. Did the member send me a copy of it? I am sorry, I haven’t seen it. It may be in the mail that backed up this week. I will look for it and give a reply.

Mr. Burr: As a supplementary, are the plutonium handlers in Ontario being monitored carefully by periodic health checkups?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: It is my understanding that that is so, Mr. Speaker, but I will confirm it.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Windsor-Walkerville.

NON-RETURNABLE CONTAINERS

Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville): A question of the Minister of the Environment, if I can get his attention: Is the minister considering consulting with his colleague to his right and banning the sale of non-returnable bottles and cans in all provincial government institutions?

Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment): Mr. Speaker, I can’t give the details on all of this, but we have had some correspondence and discussions with various groups that are working through the government institutions and we are looking at the total picture now. I believe one small segment has switched over to returnable bottles, and we are having discussions with the other groups too.

Mr. B. Newman: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Has the minister set a timetable by which non-returnable bottles or cans will no longer be sold?

Hon. W. Newman: No, I have not.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Port Arthur.

THUNDER BAY STUDY

Mr. Foulds: Mr. Speaker, a question of the Treasurer, in his capacity as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs:

Is the minister aware of a statement, as reported in the Thunder Bay Media on the weekend of March 15, by a TEIGA official in Thunder Bay that a number of sites for “dirty industry” have been located within a 50-mile radius of the city of Thunder Bay? Is this related to the proposed heavy industrial complex, and wouldn’t it be more within the bounds of public welfare to ensure that the industry is not dirty, but in fact observes environmental controls?

Mr. Breithaupt: Sounds like dirty tricks.

Hon. Mr. McKeough: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of the statement made by the official, but I suppose “dirty industry” is a phrase that is often used in connection with very heavy industry -- steel industry, refineries, that sort of thing. It would be my expectation -- and the Minister of the Environment might want to say something about this -- that any large scale industry, such as steel refineries, in the last two or three years have been submitting themselves to environmental assessment and completing environmental studies on their own. At some point that will become mandatory, I suppose, under the Act which is before the House, but the fact is that they are doing it now in any case, and I suppose that the nomenclature “dirty industry” is probably something which shouldn’t be used today.

Mr. Foulds: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister aware, or is it true, that the proposed sites for the heavy industrial complex have been narrowed to two, one in the township of McTavish and one near the Slate River area? And why is there such a shroud of secrecy over this proposed development? I have been trying to get information out of the ministry since last December and none seems to be available.

Hon. Mr. McKeough: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware if there are one, two or 10 sites at this moment.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Welland South?

ACID SPILL IN PELHAM TOWNSHIP

Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct a question to the Minister of the Environment.

Is the minister aware of the recent court decision that levied a fine of $1,000 against a farmer in the Niagara region under a section of the Environmental Protection Act, brought about by the Ministry of the Environment’s regional office in Welland, Ont.?

Will the ministry now apply the same initiative to proceed with a court action against the T H and B Railroad, responsible for an acid spill that caused considerable damage to farm lands and property in the town of Pelham?

Hon. W. Newman: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am aware of both cases. If the member read the article where the farmer was fined, our legal staff asked the court to be lenient on the fine and they were reprimanded by the presiding judge for suggesting that he be lenient. He said, “I will decide what the fine is.” So in that particular case our staff got their knuckles rapped.

In the other case of the Pelham farmer, I’m aware that I did talk to his lawyer in Hamilton when the cabinet met there last month. At that time I asked him if he could send me his file, which he was quite prepared to do, so that we could try and work something out without putting that farmer, who was very kind at the time, through a tremendous amount of legal expense. To my knowledge, I have not received that correspondence at this point in time.

Mr. Haggerty: A supplementary question: Would the same judge be available for the Dow situation?

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: No, the judge is busy with Singer versus Sargent.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Port Arthur.

MOOSE MANAGEMENT

Mr. Foulds: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. Has the question that I placed on March 21 to the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development, been drawn to his attention, and does the minister have an answer for it?

Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources): Yes, it has, Mr. Speaker, and if the member will just reiterate the points that he wanted me to answer, I would be glad to answer him now.

Mr. Foulds: A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker. I asked if the minister has under consideration any steps for moose management in the light of the pressure on the species in northwestern Ontario, particularly around the district of Thunder Bay. I understand, of course, some measures were taken; other than raising the non-resident fee by a mere $50, is he taking a look at mandatory registration of kills? Is he taking a look at terminating the sale of licences on the opening day of season? What other steps is he taking for a whole moose management programme in light of the endangering of the species?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Mr. Speaker, let me point out that in some areas of northern Ontario there is a growing concern about the moose population. My people indicate that, as an overall situation, the moose herd remains fairly static at about 125,000 head. We can harvest up to about 20,000 to 25,000 per year. We’re harvesting in the area of about 13,000 or 14,000 moose per year.

Mr. Foulds: How many?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: About 13,000 or 14,000. We’ve taken steps in the last two years to become more involved with the management of this very valuable resource to northern Ontario. The member will be aware that we’ve moved from large management units to 45 smaller management units.

This year we’ve delayed the opening of the season by one week. In other words, we’re getting out of the rutting season where the moose are more vulnerable. As the member has correctly pointed out, we’ve increased the non-resident license fee from $125 to $175; plus the trophy fee, which is $15. A non-resident coming to Ontario now would be asked to pay $190, if he is successful.

Our studies are continuing. In fact in my budget this year there will be additional funds for a broader moose management programme. Through it we will be working very closely with the pulp and paper industry to improve the habitat right across northern Ontario. I pointed out to the industry that our moose management programme will not be a static one. In other words, what is in place today may not be in place next year. They should look forward to changes, because we’re getting more closely involved. We will manage this resource on a much smaller unit basis and in a more efficient way.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Essex-Kent.

Mr. Germa: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: No, we’re a little short on time. We should have another question.

GAS RATE INCREASE

Mr. Ruston: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Energy. With regard to the interim rate increase allowed Consumers’ Gas and Union Gas as to the $2-a-month service charge, was this considered as an increase for service purposes or was it considered an increase for covering part of the cost of the increased price of gas?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: I believe it was the former, Mr. Speaker; but if the member will allow me, I will check into that and report back. I believe it was the former.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Sudbury.

GUN SAFETY REGULATIONS

Mr. Germa: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. Can he assure me that the people holding non-resident moose licences are also made to comply with the gun safety regulations that the people of Ontario have to comply with?

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Mr. Speaker, this is a very difficult area to enforce. I might say that we are looking at some ways and means of enforcing it, because we do get a number of immigrants from other countries who become landed immigrants in the Province of Ontario. This is causing us some concern, because some of them have not really grasped the language, but they do have a hunting licence from their home country, which they present during the hunting season. Of course, if they have evidence that they’ve been hunting in their own country then they can hunt here because they are efficient hunters and they should be very capable and able to handle a firearm.

This is causing us concern. I’d have to say to the member we are looking at a number of different ways to enforce what he has just pointed out, that the non-resident should comply in the same way as a resident of Ontario, with regard to the handling of firearms.

Mr. Speaker: The oral question period has expired.

Before I proceed, I’ll recognize the member for Sudbury.

Mr. Germa: Mr. Speaker, I’d like to introduce to the House 30 students from Sudbury Secondary School, under the direction of Mr. Kett and presently sitting in the east gallery.

Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of day, if I may, it is quite --

Mr. Speaker: I’m sorry we are not quite that far yet. Will you just hold?

Mr. Reid: All right.

Mr. Speaker: Petitions.

Presenting reports.

Motions.

Introduction of bills.

Now I’ll recognize the member for Rainy River.

Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, this is a rather momentous day for time people of Ontario. Today happens to be the birthday of the silver fox, the member for Grey-Bruce. He informs me he is 39 today.

An hon. member: Happy birthday.

Mr. Reid: Can the House leader get him a scroll?

Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet): He doesn’t live in my riding.

Mr. Speaker: Orders of the day.

Clerk of the House: The 21st order, House in committee of supply.

ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES

Mr. Chairman: Would the minister like to make a few remarks at this time?

Hon. R. T. Potter (Minister of Correctional Services): Mr. Chairman, I’m delighted to have this opportunity once again of presenting the estimates of the Ministry of Correctional Services. I would like to bring to the attention of the members that during the past year my ministry has continued the development and expansion of community-centred programmes for both adults and juveniles. I propose today to review some of these and other developments and to outline a number of new initiatives which we plan to undertake within the ministry.

Last April, we launched a programme to establish residential facilities for adult offenders in communities throughout the province. These 8- to 10-bed facilities, commonly known as community resource centres, accommodate men and women who would otherwise spend their sentences inside correctional institutions. Twelve community resource centres had been opened by the start of 1975 and several of these have native persons in the northern areas of the province.

To become eligible for these centres, inmates make application from any of our institutions. Their applications are very carefully screened, having regard to public safety particularly, and selections are made by the local temporary absence committee at that particular institution. The successful applicants are then granted temporary absence permits to live at the community resource centre in order to work at gainful employment in the community or in order to take academic or other training.

We plan to open an additional 10 resource centres this year and a number of these, too, will be located in northern Ontario. These 10 units will provide approximately 90 additional beds in the community.

While we are talking about the temporary absence programme, Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that since the ministry launched its temporary absence programme in 1969, we have maintained a 98 per cent success rate. To me, this reflects the careful screening and the responsive support of our staff in the institutions and in supportive community-based programmes.

It is also a credit to the community agencies, to employers and to educational authorities who have helped to make the programme work. And of course in the last analysis the success of the programme can be attributed to the positive way in which most of the participants have responded to the responsibility that this programme has placed in them.

I think it is particularly reassuring and encouraging to note that the number of temporary absence passes granted has increased without any increase in the percentage of violations.

I have mentioned the support being received from the public and the employers, and I am pleased to report that a number of companies make regular and repeated use of the possibilities for selecting, training and employing suitable candidates. I might also add that government ministries also employ former inmates.

Our regular temporary absence placements include a cannery, a sheet metal company and a pulp and paper company that provides training and employment for heavy equipment operators. Naturally those persons who are employed on temporary absence pay a sum toward their room and board, they pay taxes and they help to contribute toward the support of their family at home.

Our largest community-based programme for adults is that provided by the probation parole staff. These individuals conduct pre-sentence investigations for the courts. They provide supervision and assistance to probationers and parolees and to persons who are on the temporary absence programme. They also supervise and co-ordinate the work of the volunteers.

I need not point out, Mr. Chairman, that the pressure on these individuals is tremendous, and it continues to grow as the courts increase their use of probation as an alternative to institutionalization. Fortunately, a reallocation of the complement within the ministry has permitted us to add staff to the probation parole service to help to cope with these increased work loads.

Over the years the ministry has benefited from the dedication and the commitment of concerned citizens who have volunteered to work with us and to work with the offenders. The numbers of these volunteers continued to grow and they are being given increased responsibilities. For example, in Ottawa a highly sophisticated programme has been developed in which over 40 clients are being supervised on a one-to-one basis by volunteers who are also preparing up to 30 pre-sentence reports for the courts every month.

Mr. Chairman, one of the major challenges in our larger correctional institutions is to prevent the development of an influential negative inmate subculture. In an attempt to offset the development of such a subculture, and at the same time to provide more individual attention to each inmate, the unit system has been introduced at Guelph and Burtch correctional centres.

At Guelph, the reduction in the inmate population allowed us to take some unused cells and convert them into programme space. The extensive involvement of inmate workers who were very enthusiastic about the project allowed the renovations to be carried out very quickly and very economically.

The unit system relies on a team approach by small groups of staff who work intensively with the much smaller inmate groups living in the new units. Under this new setup, there has been a noticeable improvement in the staff-inmate relationships.

Renovations currently are under way at Guelph to enlarge the neuropsychiatric clinic from a 26-bed clinic to one that will accommodate about 100 when completed later this year. This facility will offer an intensive treatment programme for those requiring it. Utilizing professional staff of diverse disciplines, the programme will provide recreational, industrial and occupational therapy, a life skills programme, plus individual and group psychotherapy.

Mr. Chairman, hon. members will be aware that four new detention centres are now under construction as part of our ministry’s continued programme of replacing outdated jails with modern facilities. One of the new facilities will replace the Hamilton jail, while another will permit the closing of St. Thomas and London jails. A new centre in Etobicoke is being constructed and another in Scarborough.

A number of steps have been taken to deal more appropriately with persons who have in the past remained at the Toronto jail. Two forestry camps in the Barrie area are fully utilized by the jail. They provide minimum security accommodation for persons who can function with limited supervision. In addition, we are now negotiating with the Salvation Army for the use of the House of Concord. The facilities would be used to house approximately 60 carefully selected offenders who are serving short sentences and who are involved in relatively brief pre-release programmes.

Another problem, Mr. Chairman, which the Toronto jail has experienced for many years is the number of persons who are remanded there for mental examination. Between 500 and 600 of these remands occur annually. This practice has diverted medical and psychiatric services from other inmates at the jail. I’m very pleased to advise members today that we are in the final planning stages toward the creation of a forensic court clinic in Toronto. This clinic, located at the court building, will allow judges to obtain immediate assessment when questions arise in regard to the psychiatric fitness of a person to stand trial or to be placed on bail in the community.

Persons in need of an assessment in a hospital setting would be diverted to an inpatient psychiatric unit which would also be part of the service.

We have continued to develop and to expand our life skills programmes for the inmates. These programmes are aimed at teaching inmates how to function more effectively in the community. They include a variety of subjects, ranging from the budgeting of family finances to how to search for and how to apply for a job. Most of our jails now provide life skills courses.

At Kenora, Mr. Chairman, where a new addition to the jail was opened last year, activity areas have been provided which are being utilized on a co-educational basis. Academic classes are provided. There is an area in which exercise and weight-lifting and so on can be carried out. Beadwork, sewing and native crafts are being taught. A treatment programme for alcohol addiction is being established at the jail and specialized staff have been assigned to the jail to operate these programmes.

In the Brampton area, we have three adult institutions. A co-educational programme is being carried out on an experimental basis. In recent months, women from the Vanier Centre for Women have been taking part in an engraving course at the nearby adult training centre for men and are learning cooking in the kitchen there. Men serving at the adult training centre have taken commercial courses and the dry cleaning and laundry courses at the Vanier Centre.

It is our intention eventually to involve the Ontario Correctional Institute in this exchange programme. We visualize that in the near future there will be a full-time exchange programme involving inmates from all three institutions. Such a programme will broaden the opportunities to make maximum use of existing facilities as well as providing an atmosphere somewhat akin to that in the outside community.

Mr. Chairman, in a number of our institutions, inmates are involved in working with the mentally retarded and the perceptually and physically handicapped. Our experience has been that these programmes give the inmates a feeling of self-worth, teach them a sense of responsibility toward others and gain public acceptance for them as individuals who can make a positive contribution to the community.

Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt): Useless work does no good.

Hon. Mr. Potter: One of these programmes, Mr. Chairman, has been so successful that it has recently been expanded to include a psychiatric hospital.

Turning to our programmes for juveniles, I am very pleased to report that the trend toward the widest possible use of community-based programming has continued during the past year. At the present time, there are 36 group homes for juveniles in operation in the province, which include seven for girls, 20 for boys, and nine which are co-educational.

Within the next year, it is our intention to open an additional seven group homes. Operated for the ministry on a contract basis, these facilities provide a home-like atmosphere for wards in a residential setting where the children can receive considerable individual attention and attend school in the local community.

A child may be placed in a group home directly after a period of assessment at the reception and assessment centre in Oakville. In other cases, a child would be placed in such a home after a period spent in the more structured setting of a training school.

To illustrate the trend toward a wider use of community facilities for wards admitted to the ministry’s care, I would like to point out that approximately 20 per cent of the children who entered the centre at Oakville in the past year were placed directly in a facility other than a training school.

Mr. Chairman, the development of the group home programme during the past year has permitted us to close Glendale Training School at Simcoe, which was the second training school to have been closed by the ministry in the past three years.

As the members undoubtedly know, our reception and assessment centre has operated since it opened as a co-educational setting. Two other schools -- Brookside at Cobourg and Cecil Facer at Sudbury -- have now been functioning as co-educational schools for over a year. At approximately the same time that we began to introduce co-educational programming, we began to even out the ratio of male and female staff in all of our training schools.

Both moves were aimed at creating a more home-like atmosphere within our schools, and the positive effects of these steps have encouraged us to a point where we plan to convert almost all our training schools to co-educational facilities over the next few years.

Mr. Chairman, programmes in our training schools are being readjusted in order that each school will be able to serve the majority of boys and girls from that immediate area. Proximity to home will allow more contact with families by both the children themselves and our staff, as well as greater ease of coordination with our probation-aftercare staff and the staff of the other health and social service agencies in the immediate area.

The ministry is, as a matter of policy, actively co-operating with local communities on the shared use of recreational facilities in our training schools, Mr. Chairman. At Pine Ridge School in Bowmanville, an arrangement is in effect whereby a local group of retarded children share the facilities. At the Brookside School in Cobourg, a community liaison committee is being chaired by the hon. Speaker of the Legislature, Russell D. Rowe. At Champlain School in Alfred, our first arrangement is with the Board of Education of the United Counties of Prescott and Russell. We think that this sharing of facilities an excellent way of assisting communities to enjoy the use of the existing, limited resources.

Mr. Chairman, to meet the increased workload being experienced by probation and aftercare staff, the complement for this service has increased during the year. Volunteers played an important role in many of our programmes and full-time volunteer co-ordinators are working in a number of areas. Some of them are filling a special need. For example, the Toronto volunteer programme includes nine Portuguese-speaking volunteers who are being trained to work within their own community.

Although the ministry is continually attempting to increase the effectiveness of its programmes, it is acutely aware that its work is primarily in the field of secondary prevention. Mr. Chairman, the children received by the ministry have often already run the gamut of community services and represent serious behavioural problems.

One has to wonder if some of these children could not have been prevented from getting into serious difficulties if more adequate preventative services had been available in the community. With this in mind, the ministry proposes to fund a comparatively small, but I believe, an important experiment in delinquency prevention. An incentive grant will be provided to encourage the municipality to reduce the rate of appearances before juvenile and family courts.

Part of this programme would involve the hiring of community liaison workers to give direction and assistance in developing and carrying out the programme. It would be the role of the liaison staff to stimulate community volunteer involvement with pre-delinquent children in order to divert them from further acting-out.

It is our belief that much greater use could be made of peers and adults who would involve themselves in positive, leisure, recreational pursuits with pre-delinquents in order to aid the children to stabilize their social lives. Obviously the involvement with an emotionally-stable adult will be of utmost importance in this programme. It is proposed that future increased funding would be provided to the participating municipality if there is a demonstrated decrease in the delinquency figures.

To concentrate attention on the family unit, the ministry plans to purchase family counselling services from agencies in various parts of the province. This will further reduce our staff caseloads and provide more intensive and specialized counselling for families than is presently available. We also propose to initiate a short-term training school placement programme. This pilot project will involve placing carefully selected children from one of our training schools back in their home community earlier, with intensified casework supervision being provided.

Mr. Chairman, to meet the needs of native peoples, who are in our care, a number of initiatives have already been taken. I have mentioned the life skills programme at Kenora which involves native staff and persons in the community. We have also at Kenora and in the Rainy River district native staff who are supplementing the work of probation aftercare staff by going on to the reserves to act as counsellors and interpreters for people who are in trouble with the law.

In addition, we have native people who have been hired at Sarnia, Peterborough and other locations to work as full-time probation parole or probation aftercare officers or as assistants to these officers A number of our institutions for both adults and juveniles are fortunate to have native staff and we are assisting other persons with potential as correctional workers to complete their education with the help of our Indian scholarship programme. A number of our community resource centres for adults and our group homes for children are serving native peoples and some are fully or partially stalled by native peoples.

As part of the ministry’s ongoing commitment to the development and improvement of medical services, two major appointments were made during the year. Dr. James Melvin was appointed as medical services consultant and Mrs. Nora Earle was appointed as adviser in nursing. These appointments were in keeping with recommendations contained in the study of our medical services which was conducted by Dr. Harry Botterell.

Throughout the years, Mr. Chairman, we have continued to receive excellent co-operation from other ministries. For example, I was most impressed during my recent visit to northern Ontario to see the excellent liaison between our institutions at Monteith and the Northeastern Mental Health Centre, Timmins Addiction Research Foundation, and Northern College of Applied Arts and Technology. Working together in that area they are carrying out a very impressive number of rehabilitation programmes for inmates.

The Ministry of Health and this ministry have developed a programme of sharing the services of psychiatrists. For example, one full-time psychiatrist serves the Hamilton jail, the Niagara Regional Detention Centre and the forensic services of the Hamilton Psychiatric Hospital. Another psychiatrist distributes her time between Pine Ridge and Brookside schools and the child and adolescent unit of the Whitby Psychiatric Hospital.

Assistance in staffing is being provided across the province by the Addiction Research Foundation. This programme is aimed at helping staff in institutions, particularly in our jails, to be better able to deal with inmates who have alcohol-related problems.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to conclude my remarks with some comments about staff and staff training. Over the years, as its methods and programmes have become more demanding and sophisticated, the ministry has come to expect much more of its staff. In the old days, it was enough that we insisted on a correctional officer being a humane custodian but in those days he was called a guard. Today he is called a correctional officer and this is not simply an exercise in semantics.

Staff in our adult institutions are called correctional officers because we recognize and we expect them to realize that they play an important role in the correctional process. They are people who daily are in close personal contact with the inmates. Often they are therefore the people with the best opportunities to form helpful relationships with the inmates.

Today, in addition to his responsibilities in regard to security, we expect the correctional officer to be a teacher, a counsellor, a motivator, a good listener and, in the fullest sense, to be an agent of rehabilitation. We make similar demands of the supervisors working with juveniles in our training schools.

Not only have the ministry’s expectations of these two categories of staff increased dramatically in recent years, but I do want to point out the pressures they face in the day-to-day performance of their duties. Quite simply, when you remove from our institutions all those who can function safely and successfully in the community, then the institutions are left with those who cannot cope with such responsibilities. Thus, correctional officers and supervisors today are dealing with the most difficult people in our system.

I was therefore very pleased when the important and challenging work of correctional officers and supervisors of juveniles was recognized by this government in salary increases granted recently to these two categories of employees.

It should be noted that educational requirements for an entry into these two positions have been increased to a minimum of grade 12, with preference going to persons with post-secondary school qualifications.

The ministry’s plans for the future include an increasing emphasis on staff training and development, for we realize that the programmes in our institutions and in the field will be only as good as the staff who run them. In this connection, a number of training initiatives have been undertaken and others are being planned.

The number of staff directly involved in staff training has been increased. Regional co-ordinators of staff training and development were trained and placed in each of the ministry’s six regions in September of last year to place leadership in training closer to the needs of the field.

Task forces were established within the ministry to provide direction to various phases of human resource development. A career planning project was begun in 1973 which provided outstanding staff from the adult field with a two-year accelerated training and development programme to train them for management positions. The first of these correctional administrators in training, or CATs, as they are known, have finished their training and seven of the participants have already been placed in senior positions.

Staff interchange programmes have been initiated which involve giving staff in one type of institution an opportunity to become familiar with the operations in another. In some cases, probation/parole stuff have spent a period of time with staff in correctional institutions. They have also participated in training exchanges with the Ontario Provincial Police.

The correctional worker courses offered at Sheridan and Centennial colleges are working very well, providing trained staff for our institutions. As a means of improving our administrative strength we have also hired many of the graduates from the masters in correctional administration course which is now offered by the Centre of Criminology in Ottawa.

Mr. Chairman, members will be aware of the meetings of the ministers of corrections over the past two years. There has been a great improvement in interprovincial and federal-provincial communication on major issues facing corrections as a result of these meetings and the intervening meetings of senior officials. Over the next year we hope to see introduction in the federal House of a greatly altered Prisons and Reformatories Act, Parole Act and Juvenile Delinquents Act. Each of these Acts is much in need of updating, and I am sure the public debate of this vital legislation will be of great interest to all members of this House.

Mr. Chairman, last year, during the estimates, I stated that consideration was being given to removing section 8 from the Training Schools Act. This section, which has always been a contentious issue, permits the court to admit to training schools those children who have not committed what would constitute an offence if they were adults, but who are deemed unmanageable or beyond control. The interministry committee studying this matter has reported, and I am pleased to inform the hon. members that I intend to introduce, during the current session, legislation that would amend the Training Schools Act by removing from it section 8.

In conclusion, I wish to inform the hon. members that it is this ministry’s intention to concentrate in the immediate future on two priorities, the continued development of community-based programmes and the intensification of our staff training programmes.

I do want to say, Mr. Chairman, how very proud I am of the people who work for this ministry. I do want to thank them publicly for the dedication and the loyalty that they have demonstrated over the past year. I am convinced that with their commitment and efforts the ministry will continue to increase the effectiveness of its programmes. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the many volunteers, agencies, other ministries, and the various individuals and groups in the community who have helped us to meet the needs of those in our care over the past year.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore): On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, there is not a quorum in this House. I never raise this point if there is another body meeting downstairs at the same time, or if people are tied up in other work in the committees of the House, where we are necessarily divided, but I see no reason why there shouldn’t be a quorum when this is the sole body sitting.

Mr. Chairman: Would the Clerk take the count please?

Clerk of the House: There is not a quorum, sir.

Mr. Chairman ordered that the bells be rung for four minutes.

Mr. Chairman: We now have a quorum. The member for Essex-Kent.

Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wouldn’t want to have it said that I was forcing anyone to come up and listen to my remarks, so I will just remind the members that it was the member for Lakeshore who called for the quorum. I agree with the principle, but I wouldn’t want to think that I had to force someone to come and listen to me.

Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur): It is always a pleasure.

Mr. Lawlor: We are quite pleased to do it for you.

Mr. J. M. Turner (Peterborough): Don’t encourage him.

Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George): We make up a quorum in this House.

Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth): That’s our problem: we make up the quorum.

Mr. Ruston: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few remarks with regard to this particular ministry. First of all, I was pleased to hear that the minister is taking section 8 out of the Training Schools Act, about which I was going to make a few remarks.

I think I might begin with a few remarks on juvenile care, in which I think we have probably failed more than in other areas. I realize the ministry is trying some new procedures and methods in the care and treatment of juveniles, but still I believe that area probably has been more neglected than other areas. I think it’s the most important one.

The juvenile care problem as a whole probably reflects on society more than any other part of the ministry, I believe. The problems that juveniles get into stem, I suppose, from the communities and the broken homes many of these children come from. In addition, we know that separated homes and one-parent families have created some of the problems.

My main concern is the direction in which we should be going to treat these people. The idea of having them in group homes has been tried, and it would appear to be the best way to deal with this, rather than sending them to large training schools, which some people think are only training schools to train them for things they don’t need to know and shouldn’t know. When they get into a training school they learn a great deal of things they certainly shouldn’t be learning.

This is a major concern of mine. I’ve always said in past years that juveniles should not be under the Ministry of Correctional Services. I think they should be under the Ministry of Community and Social Services. I don’t say this in regard to the minister himself; I’m saying this with respect to the general overall operations. I think they would fit in much better with the Ministry of Community and Social Services, because they have general overall control of the whole spectrum of juvenile care -- the social services and so forth, which to me are really part of the same thing. By doing this, as I’ve stressed in other years, we would also involve the federal government in paying for 50 per cent of the cost of operating this programme.

I know that the minister said last year in his estimates statement, and in subsequent newspaper articles, that he has had discussions with the federal people on this matter and he can’t get them to change their mind to allow him to keep it in Correctional Services. I think that maybe the minister should change his mind. I really feel that these could be run under the Ministry of Community and Social Services.

If you want someone to be responsible for them in the Legislature, since there is an appointment announced every other day or two about parliamentary assistants, probably a parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Brunelle) could be responsible for that area of care. He then could answer any questions in the House as to its operations. Then it doesn’t leave it back in the bureaucratic area someplace where one can’t question its operations. I think that sounds reasonable. It’s reasonable too because it would save the province some money as the federal government then would share in its cost of operation.

I also am concerned when I look over the ministry administration programme. We are talking about estimates -- and this is what we are supposed to really be talking about, the operations and so forth of the department of the ministry as a whole. It’s interesting just to follow the one vote 1401. When we look at the increase in costs from each area of administration, when we take in the general administration, the increase is 18 per cent which is, I suppose, logical for general increases in wages and salaries and so forth. The next increase is five per cent and this is for health care services. This is something that I think is really lacking.

If we go back to the report Dr. Botterell made in 1972 to the then Minister of Correctional Services he found that health care services in the jails were very poor. He came in with about 10 or 15 main recommendations. We will admit that a few of them were instigated, but very few; hardly any of them, when you look at what we are putting in health care.

When you go down the line farther to planning and support services, I suppose that planning and support services are not a big item. Totally they are $810,000, but they are only increased seven per cent from the previous year.

Administrative and financial services are increased by $730,000 or a 40 per cent increase. We always are concerned about how we keep having more money going out for administration. It reminds you almost of the school boards in our area, where the director of education now gets $39,000 a year, as much as what the deputy minister actually gets. Yet there are about 40 directors of education all over the province and we didn’t have that before we had the centralization. I’m concerned that we keep spending more of our tax dollar on administrative items.

Personnel services went up by 25 per cent. Staff training and development -- and I certainly have no argument with it at all for any increase there, as I think that’s an excellent place we should be looking at -- increased 30 per cent. But the next one is the one that really throws me, and that is information services. Last year the estimate was for $392,000. This year it’s for $1,074,000. That’s an increase of about 200 per cent.

Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South): It is an election year.

An hon. member: That’s normal with this government.

Mr. Ruston: I suppose I have this package that I received with 14 folders for all the items the ministry has. Some of them are hard-covered, which I know is very expensive, but some others are not. There are pamphlets of every kind in all different colours. They have them in purple, green and blue, and others are orange.

An hon. member: You don’t see any red.

Mr. Ruston: I don’t see any red ones.

Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury): Purple Potter.

Mr. Ruston: There is a partially green one and there is purple. That must be for the minister. But, anyway, I just can’t understand why it is necessary to make up 14 folders when I am sure that anybody could sit down and put that in about three. I just don’t understand why it’s necessary to spend an extra $681,000 for information services.

I think someone mentioned here that it is an election year this year. I suppose it’s like every time you open a daily paper or the weekly paper, there are about four large advertisements -- a quarter page, a half page -- saying that Mr. Robert Welch is the new Minister of Culture and Recreation, and Mr. Jim Auld is the Minister of Colleges and Universities. Well, we’ve had colleges and universities in Ontario for, I guess, 100 years or so. I don’t think we have to advertise with massive ads in papers to say that we have a Minister of Colleges and Universities.

However, it’s an election year and I guess that is involved in what they are trying to do. But this to me is really a waste of public funds when we see this type of thing going on.

Mr. Haggerty: It must be printed in the United States, is it?

Mr. Ruston: Another thing in vote 1401 is services. We have never got into that one in very much detail. When we get going through the estimates, I intend to bring it up again. But I just want to make a note here that in the first vote, which is a total of $7,674,000, the services in the total of the seven votes comes to $1,611,000. Of course, in the information services vote alone the services come to $573,000.

Now, I am under the impression that a lot of these are contracts and so forth that the ministry has, and we will question that later. But, I just don’t see how this particular item keeps rising so fast. Of course, none of them rises as fast as the advertising. It is really criminal to have such an increase.

As far as the operations of the jails, staffing and so forth are concerned, I don’t think that I am really going to get into that very much this year, Mr. Chairman.

Right now, as you are aware, Mr. Chairman, we have the royal commission by Judge Shapiro on jail guard brutality and so forth. I’m sure he will be presenting an enlightening report. It might be the basis of some future consideration by the ministry and so forth.

I would think that in the planning of new jails that television should be utilized to provide coverage of what is going on in many areas. It is impossible to keep men in areas all the time to check on what is going on. Of course, there have been suicides in some of our jails.

Another concern is the parole system. Many people in our province are now aware, of course, that a major part of the parole system is operated through the federal parole system. There have been discussions on that; I think we discussed it last year.

In a report in the Toronto Star of May 30, 1974, the minister said he was concerned that the parole changes were too slow in coming. And he wants some changes made so that the province would have more control over the parole system, especially of the people in the provincial jails. I can agree with him completely on that. I think I mentioned that last year.

Another concern is how one can really rationalize the decision made by the ministry to close Burwash. In the last four or five years, from what I can gather there has been about $3 to $4 million spent on repairs and major overhauls, and then there is a decision to close the large farm acreage. I understand that it has been closed or its closing is about to be finalized.

The thing that concerns me is why major repairs have been made to it -- and they are major; I have a list of them here but I think they have been mentioned before -- and why they were made at that time. It just doesn’t seem reasonable that there wouldn’t have been more planning on what was to be done with this institution. Repairs are made and major overhauling carried out and then they decide to close it. It concerns me considerably as to how the ministry could come to this kind of a decision so quickly after having all the repairs done to it. They must have thought it was a reasonable place to keep open, and yet all at once they decide it’s going to be closed.

I’m also concerned with regard to a report which the minister mentioned the other day when he was asked questions about brutality in training schools and statements by a Mr. Brewer, who is having the hearing with the minister’s department, as to what was going on in the training schools. I think that what we have to do is open up our training schools to people who are interested and let’s see what’s going on. I know that we as members can go into them and so forth, but I think there must be responsible interested citizens in the community who could have a little input into this and check into their operations.

It’s very difficult -- when people read reports in the newspapers and so forth, especially with regard to this particular instance -- if you are a layman and you read a headline, “Probation Officer is Discharged for Criticizing Training Schools,” and the write-up, and the next day or a few days later the Globe and Mail comes in with an editorial on the muzzling of government. It’s very concerning to the general public when they read that; they’re just not sure.

I’ll admit that I have a great deal of faith in the people who are working in the ministry. A civil servant doesn’t always have the best of both worlds. He has to answer to the department and he has to be responsible and yet he’s treating people who come in from the community whom somebody else can’t handle, so they bring him in and expect him to see that they get taken care of properly. I realize that that is not an easy matter, but I think we have to keep it out in the open. I think people have to know what’s going on. If these charges are not true then naturally it should be shown that they’re not. There should be an open hearing, it seems to me, to let these things out so that we know what’s going on.

I don’t really have very much more that I want to lead off with, Mr. Chairman. In the estimates in past years sometimes we get up and speak for an hour and then when each vote comes along either you repeat yourself or it goes sailing through. I think that we should maybe go over each vote a little more thoroughly rather than spend so much time on the leadoff, Mr. Chairman, that’s all I have to say right now.

Mr. Chairman: The hon. member for Hamilton Centre.

Mr. N. Davison (Hamilton Centre): Mr. Chairman, I wonder if first we could get a copy of the minister’s opening remarks so that we could have an opportunity to look at them.

Over the years, Ontario has slowly been giving greater emphasis to rehabilitating prisoners. We no longer stuff the sentenced individual into a cell and forget about him, except for his physical needs, until he is eligible for parole or until he completes his sentence. We have taken this new approach simply because the old way did nothing to correct the tendency toward crime and because of the high cost of custodial care that continues to increase as offenders return time and again.

A couple of years ago, Kenneth A. Carlson, an assessor of prisoners at the Guelph Correctional Centre, did a study, following up over a period of six years 1,070 adult first offenders admitted in 1965. He found that 686, or slightly more than 65 per cent, had returned as a result of being convicted of further crimes. Almost one-third of those returning did so within six months. More than half had returned within a year and three-quarters within two years.

Obviously, jailing offenders did not alter their ways. Equally obvious, the cost of keeping up with the new offenders, aggravated by the high rate of repeat offenders, could do nothing but go up. On top of this, of course, one must add the inflation factor. Something must be done, we decided, to reverse the trend of repeaters, and so we took some steps. But they are slow, and the feedback of information from the results is still slow. Sometimes we seem to be fighting against our own knowledge.

It is generally considered that smaller institutions give more desirable results in rehabilitation and vocational training programmes. The number of inmates should be about 160 -- certainly under 200. Yet a grand jury recommended increasing the size of the Whitby institution since it has almost reached its maximum. I would hope that the enlargement of any existing institution would not increase its use beyond the most effective size for treatment. I also hope that none of the new institutions being built will be too large.

An interesting programme was initiated about two years ago at the Joyceville institution by its chaplain, Rev. Glenn Jackson, under the general sponsorship of the Kingston district of the United Church. It was called “Link Fellowship” and was organized so as to establish a relationship between the penitentiary inmates and citizens on the outside. I haven’t heard how this programme has gone on since the first year. I am interested that 85 inmates showed up -- the first night the group gathered at the institution, but Joyceville’s administration limited the number of participating inmates to 25 because it would be unmanageable if the group was any larger. So you see, a large institution would prevent the participation of all inmates interested in such an innocent thing as outside social contact, however desirable such a programme might be.

Whitby has a pilot programme to provide the prisoners with a night out once a week to use the recreational facilities of the Whitby Hospital. I understand this programme is to be evaluated some time this month and I hope the hon. minister will advise us of the results. I don’t think, however, that this kind of a programme could be carried out in a large institution.

I am pleased that we are phasing out our training schools. I have had many parents discuss with me their dissatisfaction with what has been happening to the children in these schools. Their dissatisfaction was not so much criticism of the staff but more of the effect which the experience had on the child, such as carving initials with a sharp object in their flesh and other such undesirable behaviour. The child becomes very hostile and has great difficulty adjusting when he is returned to society. Recent figures indicate 34 per cent of training school graduates are convicted of an offence and 48 per cent are returned or sent to another institution within 18 months of their release. It is the same kind of history we experienced in our correctional centres.

I am very hopeful that the different atmosphere provided by the use of group homes will be more appealing to young people. It is my opinion that they might gain a whole new outlook on life and rid themselves of some of the frustrations which have caused them to become offenders. If we can’t find the proper way to reach these young offenders I don’t feel we will be very successful with the next age group. Only by rehabilitating the young offenders will we ever be able to reduce the crime rate. This is one area where we don’t want our young people to go on to bigger things.

I would be interested in learning if the federal government is now sharing with Ontario the cost of our training schools and group homes. A year ago the minister reported that one training school had been closed; a second was in process of closing, and in 18 months -- about October, 1975 -- a third would be closed down. He also reported that a total of 28 group homes were in operation; 17 for boys, seven for girls and four co-educational, with a further six expected to be in operation by the fall of 1974, for a total of 34 group homes. I assume that the 34 homes would provide accommodation for the inmates of the two training schools which I assume are now closed.

I understand that other uses are being planned for the closed training schools, such as the use to which Glendale is being put as a young offenders unit for the 16 to 18 age group. I am pleased to see that this age group will be segregated from the older and, perhaps, repeat offenders. This is a fairly large group representing about 15 per cent of the inmates of our adult institutions. I would hope that complete segregation of this age group will be accomplished at the very earliest possible time.

Regarding the programme recently instituted at Guelph Correctional Centre and that planned for Maplehurst, the minister stated last April:

“Our concerns are, primarily, that the rent paid by employers for our facilities is fair to the taxpayers of Ontario; that the type of work is consistent with our rehabilitation aims; that wages and other fringe benefits are commensurate with those prevailing in the industry for persons of similar skills; and that the employer will show willingness to provide employment elsewhere in his enterprise to suitable inmates on release.”

I am interested in learning what guarantees we have from Essex Packers that they will provide employment elsewhere in their operations to suitable inmates on release.

I would also like to learn how they define suitable inmates. I think this is the key to the success of this programme. Acquired skills and knowledge are of little advantage when an inmate is released if he is unable to find employment in his new field of knowledge. If, however, the employer is prepared to add the released inmate to his employees on the outside, it would seem to me to provide the best insurance we could have in our efforts to rehabilitate the prisoner and to make possible his return to society without the need to return to his old habits and, once again, return as a prisoner to the institution.

I am particularly pleased that the minister has consulted with the Ontario Federation of Labour and is going to pay going wage rates. Like them, I would object to providing an employer with a captive pool of low-paid labour. This would be exploitation of the worst kind and would only breed resentment in the prisoner which would exceed anything previously experienced.

On the other hand, proper wage rates would enable him to maintain his family so they are not cases for welfare. They would enable him to pay his own board, to be able to pay his share of unemployment insurance to provide a cushion against future unemployment; to pay income tax so he is paying his share of operating our country; to have spending money of his own which he has earned and if he is single, to have saved a little nest egg. This would add to his sense of worth, a sense that was formerly stripped from him as he entered the prison doors.

Newspaper speculation as to whether they will have the right to vote returned to them, based on the fact that they would now be paying income tax, is a little silly. Any number of people who do not pay income tax have the right to vote -- 18-year-olds who have not yet entered the labour force, anyone who has been unemployed for a lengthy period of time, many old age pensioners, and certainly other pensioners like the blind and disabled. The inmates of our institutions did not lose their right to vote because they ceased to pay income tax, nor will it be returned to those inmates who are employed in these projects because are again paying income tax. They lost their right to vote because they had committed offences and crimes for which they were imprisoned. This is the law.

Personally, I have no objection to any inmate of our correctional institutions retaining their right to vote. It would give them an interest in the outside world, and perhaps they could have a more objective view of our political parties. Perhaps serious consideration should be given to amending our laws to return the right to vote to all inmates 18 years and over.

I am pleased that our temporary absence programme remains successful and seems to have stabilized its results at about a 98 per cent effective rate. Has any follow-up study been made on the rate of repeat offenders of those released inmates who had participated in the temporary absence programme? I know the programme has been in effect for only a relatively short length of time, but I would like to see a comparison with the findings of Mr. Carlson, who discovered that 64 per cent of first offenders in a six-year period had committed further crimes that returned them to the institutions, and that three-quarters of those returning had done so within two years. I think we could do a comparative study of this two-year period. We need some kind of yardstick to measure this programme’s success in rehabilitation.

I feel the hon. minister should maintain a constant flow of these kinds of statistics for the hon. members, because none of us represents an area that is totally free of crime. All of us must concern ourselves with the process of rehabilitation.

I would like to know what programmes are being made available to our female inmates. Making sure they have a welfare cheque in their purse when they leave is hardly the same as being taught skills by which they can earn a living, nor does it give them any guarantee of future employment. Sewing, laundry and hairdressing seem to be somewhat limiting in scope and in imagination, and I am wondering why a programme similar to that planned for Maplehurst, together with some guarantee of employment upon their release, is not made available to them.

I don’t believe we can really complete the inmate’s rehabilitation unless we follow through after his release with some kind of placement assistance and a counselling service. I think it is important that they be made to feel that there is concern and help so that they can make it after they have been released and get back into society.

Perhaps some of our problems might be solved in a new approach to sentencing. The Law Reform Commission has issued some thought-provoking publications. One, “The Victim vs the Offender,” begins by asking, “If your colour TV set were stolen would you rather have it back or send the bum to jail?” They suggest that hundreds of relatively minor offences are being processed through our courts each day, often resulting in no compensation for the victim’s loss and imprisonment for an offender who may be young or in court for the first time.

The commission suggests further that in minor offences which are not contested and where there is no risk to society at large, conciliation proceedings, as opposed to court trials, could provide a more satisfactory settlement for all. Under their proposal, if your TV was stolen, for instance, a settlement could be worked out whereby the offender would replace the set. I believe this might work out well in the case of a first offender. The victim recovers his loss and the offender, having had to work to earn the money to replace the set, probably would determine never to replace himself in this position again; and our tax dollars would not be spent to support the offender in jail.

In any event, it is an interesting and new approach and I think bears a close examination of its possibilities. It is an approach that would probably meet the general approval of George Street, former chairman of the National Parole Board, who states:

“I am convinced that imprisonment should be used as a last resort and should only be necessary if the person cannot be treated in any other way.

“The John Howard Society supports alternatives to imprisonment for individuals not dangerous to the community and supports the wider use of probation.”

In closing, Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to see work has started on the old Barton St. jail in Hamilton. It is in a way unfortunate that Pat O’Neil will not be there as supervisor when the new building is completed. He made the most that was possible out of this century-old jail. However, I assume his new job as associate co-ordinator of the temporary absence programme for Ontario is in the nature of a promotion for him, and most certainly it is in line with his interests. I wish him a successful future in this new area.

Mr. Chairman: Does the hon. minister wish to respond?

Hon. Mr. Potter: I could, Mr. Chairman, but I think most of the questions that have been asked will be discussed when they come under the votes. So if it is okay, we will respond to them under the votes.

Mr. Chairman: On vote 1401, item 1.

Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River): Mr. Chairman, may I ask before we get into it, where we can discuss jails -- construction of, and so on? Would that be under vote 1402?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Vote 1402 would be the adult facilities and 1403 would be the juvenile facilities.

On vote 1401:

Ms. Chairman: On vote 1401, shall item 1 carry? Item 1 agreed to.

On item 2, health care. Any comments?

Mr. Ruston: Mr. Chairman, I mentioned health care, and asked has the minister anything for us in regard to the Botterell report in 1972? How far has he gone with regard to those recommendations?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Mr. Chairman, most of the recommendations in the Botterell report have been followed. We have provided for full-time nurses in many of our institutions, and nursing care is available on a full-time basis in the majority of them. Doctors’ services are available every day.

We have followed his recommendations in co-ordinating with the Ministry of Health the availability of health services that are provided in the community. OHIP has now agreed that they will cover health services for us under their programme so that an individual can be treated the same in jail as he is on the outside.

In health services this year, Mr. Chairman, you will note that there is very little change as far as actual costs were concerned, with only an additional cost of $14,000. That was because of adjustments that were made during 1974-1975. We were able to pick up a fair amount, and it wasn’t necessary to ask for more funds to provide for some of the services that we have had to provide there. The funds were already available, but were not being used by the director of medical services.

As I have said, in the hospitals we have made the changes that have been recommended by Dr. Botterell. There were one or two minor things that we disagreed on concerning some of the advisory committees. It’s rather a lengthy report but I would be glad to make it available to you to show you what we have and you can study it.

Mr. Chairman: Does item 2 carry?

Mr. Lawlor: May I say a word on item 2?

Mr. Chairman: The hon. member for Lakeshore.

Mr. Lawlor: What it will come down to, after I make a brief statement, is just how many psychiatrists -- yes, let’s stick to psychiatrists for the moment, not psychologists or paratherapeutic personnel -- are involved in the various institutions. The second question would be is each institution covered? We won’t pretend they are adequately covered.

What I want to say initially, because it seems to me to be pretty well established now, is that the distinction between sin and mental illness is pretty well established. For people like me, sin exists. It’s something deliberately done; it’s an act which infringes basically societal norms for which the person can be held responsible, accountable and in control. Responsibility is the word in this regard. But for an awful lot of people involved in prisons, involved in jails and various incarceratory institutions, that’s not so in my opinion.

I think the minister is a particularly good minister for Correctional Services, although we’ve had a string of men over the other side there who have over the years since I’ve been acquainted with these matters done yeoman service. I don’t want to be invidious and start at any particular place but the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development (Mr. Grossman) seemed to me to give an impetus when I was first in this House in this particular direction. He responded well when the member for High Park (Mr. Shulman) and myself visited many of these institutions. We haven’t done so much of late. His attitude was in itself psychiatric. In other words, it wasn’t defensive. He responded, admitted and corrected.

You, sir, have done likewise. It’s easy to approach you on difficult issues connected with training schools -- as between the two of us we well know -- in various areas. Being a doctor, you have an insight into matters of pathology and physiology that is not available to all members of this House. You know the alienation, the sense of disturbance, the imbalance that exists in the society and manifests itself as a symptom -- as a running sore to some extent -- in terms of penitentiaries, in terms of reform institutions, in reform, and in terms of the whole penal system.

A recent book was reviewed in the New York Times Review of Books this week about Attica. I don’t pretend that our position is anywhere comparable in tough terms, but the same breeding grounds is there. Attica was a particularly vile thing which was the pus in the system and needed lancing, which the new vice-president of the United States totally failed to do, as the article points out, in a vein of cowardice and in a vein of bourgeois blindness. That is the tendency and the difficulty with your department. People are not interested. They’re a tiny coterie of the whole population.

By and large, we turn our eyes away from jails and penal institutions of all kinds. We find them perhaps as little boys find cemeteries, something that you avert your eyes from and get quickly past, particularly after dusk. They tend to be sewers in the society. This is the difficulty. They tend to inflict greater wounds than anything they ever helped to cause. I know you’re trying to rectify that and that’s why you’re getting my support.

Ten years ago that wasn’t so. Everybody blinded themselves. They let the thing rot and let the sewers overflow and stirred a bit of the pot in the process, throwing up their hats. But that is not the attitude of this minister and it is not what will take place as the programmes here, particularly the temporary absence programme and other programmes, are expanded and resolved.

The chief thing, and we’ll come to it in the next vote, that I’m interested in is decreasing the size of the institution. You are doing that with the group home concept. In matters of this kind direct, personal intimacy is the only cure so a person feels he is respected, he is a human being, he is not a cog in some wretched machine and he’s not being driven through a corral all the time. Millbrook has still got a great deal of improvement to be done and some day that wretched fortress should be razed to the ground. It was erected as a monument to somebody’s perverse penology I think. I forget the colonel or something there; I think he used to erect concrete fortresses in Brazil or somewhere in far-off portions of the world, in the Ardennes, and with the military, mentality present in that particular situation.

I don’t know if the minister in this particular regard, too, has had an opportunity to look at an article by George Woodcock -- it is some years ago; I haven’t got it in front of me -- as to some recommendations. It has largely to do with British Columbia and some of the peculiar situations out there because of their vast resources situation, particularly with respect to tourism and recreational facilities.

It has a certain application here. The sense would be that you involve inmates, in a greater sense, in the ecology thing, in the environment, working closely with the minister thereof, and widen their horizons. This would put men out in the field. These various camps, farm camps and others that you have around, near Barrie, etc., are excellent institutions in this particular regard. There is no question that you already have a foundation for it. If you could expand that a bit it would not only give them a deeper sense of relationship with nature itself and the healing powers contained there, but would be something fruitful, useful and highly beneficial in an up-to-date way in the community itself.

Sometimes you or the federal government hire students to clean up highways, to do various trenchment projects, to bank rivers, to set up sanctuaries, bird sanctuaries and a hundred tasks that are possible. They would get the fresh air, the open air, a certain regimen which many of these people would benefit by, the toughness of life. Even, perhaps, a certain Spartan character about the open air.

I shouldn’t talk about that; I don’t know anything personally about it. But there you are. Particularly of young people, some often say “send them into the army” type of thing. For those who aren’t disposed to do that I can’t think of anything more wrenching and more diminishing. It would twist a human person and take many years to get them back into some kind of rehabilitation or in line with this society.

Not that I think being in line with this wretched society is a particular sign of mental health; on the contrary. If you are that much in line you just might be completely psychotic. In any event there is some kind of balance there.

I return at this stage to my original question at the beginning. I’m terribly concerned about it. I know there is a shortage of psychiatrists. I think that you, as Minister of Health previously and in your present portfolio, should do everything in your power to stimulate that. It’s the expanding field; it’s the thing that’s coming. Therapy is even becoming somewhat acceptable now. It is a new discovery whose foundations and whose full potential has not even begun to be felt.

You feel it first because you have to deal with people who are the most alienated in this society, and from themselves, and can’t find accommodation with other human beings, who don’t know what love means and do know what hate means and know how to offend, and in masochistic guises twist both themselves and, sadistically, others in the process, and you do know a good deal about the playing out business as you get these resentments and things. You’ll test anybody and you will twist any arm; you will put a knife between ribs just for some absolutely trivial, absolutely meaningless and asinine motive.

Judges who aren’t trained in this regard sit there and they pause; they don’t know and they can’t understand it because they themselves haven’t gone through those particular periods, and haven’t really got into it. But you do, and your institution does. You’ve got all kinds of first-class people on that staff who understand these things, who know all the correctional literature, who follow it closely, who attend the conferences and are up to date in these particular regards. All I can say is hail and farewell in this regard and keep up the good work. Couldn’t you have the answers to those couple of questions?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the hon. member for his comments. As he has said, it is difficult to get psychiatrists. As far as we are concerned, we have full-time psychiatrists at the neuropsychiatric unit at Guelph. We have one at the OCI in Brampton. We have 44 part-time psychiatrists in the province, and they are assisted by 37 full-time and 22 part-time psychologists and psychometrists. I spoke earlier about the facilities we were going to make available at the Don Jail, which I think will be a big asset, particularly in this area, if we had the psychiatric unit established there.

Mr. Lawlor: It’s great to get that out of the way. That is a mess.

Hon. Mr. Potter: I think it will be too. It’s not going to happen overnight, as you know. We are working on it. We hope to have it finalized and get moving very quickly. It takes a lot of co-operation from various areas to do this.

I appreciate the comments of the hon. member on our facility in Millbrook. It reminds me of the comments that were made by his leader some years ago about Burwash. I only hope, when the day comes that I close Millbrook, that I don’t get the same criticism as we got in closing Burwash.

Mr. Lawlor: No, you can’t have it both ways.

Mr. Chairman: The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville.

Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to ask of the minister, under health care services, if the ministry or the institution conducts a fairly intensive study of the body chemistry of the individual who is brought into the institution.

Hon. Mr. Potter: I think I can answer that question, Mr. Chairman, by saying he gets a complete physical examination the same as any individual would from his own family physician. But to say that he gets a complete study of the body chemistry would not be true, sir. There are very few individuals, unless they go for specific purposes to an internist for a specific reason, who would get a complete study of the body chemistry.

Mr. B. Newman: Then may I bring to the attention of the minister some of the studies found in England as a result of two researchers’ quite extensive analysis of the topic under consideration? In the Manchester Guardian, a writer by the name of Allan Smith -- this is in England -- makes the following comments: “Vandalism, hooliganism, and some more serious criminal behaviour might not be the inescapable ills of life in the 20th century. They could be caused by lead poisoning.” I bring it to your attention that if the ministry undertook certain studies concerning the body chemistry there could be some correlation found between some of the new pollutants that affect society today and the behaviour of the individual.

Professors have traced the links between high levels of lead in the blood and hyperactivity in children and adults, and there is a further link between hyperactivity and criminal behaviour. Over there today they are actually studying the lead levels of individuals in the downtown centres of London, in the heaviest traffic areas, because they claim that lead in the bloodstream has long been known to affect organs such as the brain, the kidneys and the liver.

Further evidence of this effect on the brain and the possible connection with profound changes in behaviour have been charted by Prof. D. Bryce-Smith, lecturer in chemistry at Reading University, and Prof. H. A. Waldron, lecturer in social medicine at Birmingham. In a paper that they presented, they have drawn sort of a relationship between hyperactivity and the presence of lead in the body system, and their recommendation is to attempt to de-lead. How you do that to an individual’s bloodstream, maybe the good doctor, the good minister, can come along and reply.

They say that children with lead poisoning show an abnormally high incidence of educational and behavioural disturbances, such as hyperactivity, and that other research shows that workers in the lead industry are generally prone to feelings of hostility and depression more than people in other industries.

I ask the minister if his ministry possibly could undertake such a project to check the blood for lead concentration to see if there actually is the same type of correlation in the Province of Ontario as has been indicated in studies in England by the learned gentlemen that I have mentioned.

Hon. Mr. Potter: Mr. Chairman, it certainly brings up an interesting aspect of lead poisoning. As the hon. member is aware, we are neither equipped nor do we have the financial resources to get into the research field. He’s also aware that lead is a substance that is being researched rather extensively at the present time.

I’d be most interested in the findings of these researchers. I don’t think any of them really have come up with any concrete evidence to prove any of the points that have been mentioned. They have suggested, at least in the reports I have seen, that it would be a possibility that many other substances also could cause changes, as they have suggested here.

As far as lead itself is concerned, I see no reason why we couldn’t look into what would be involved at the time of the committal examination, and, providing it wasn’t too expensive, I suppose we could go ahead and have the blood levels done. Probably it would be more interesting to those researchers who are developing this view at the present time to correlate the information to help them.

Certainly I would be delighted to look into it, but I don’t want anyone to get the impression that we’re going to do this type of complete analysis and examination on every individual who comes in. It would be just too much to expect.

Mr. B. Newman: I can understand that, Mr. Minister, but when we go through the estimates of various ministries in the course of the year, we find all kinds of moneys allocated for every type of exotic study you can imagine. If there is some correlation between lead and the unusual behaviour of an individual, in the long run it would be money well spent. Even if you started on a small scale or get the results of the studies by the two gentlemen from Europe, it would be to our advantage.

Mr. Chairman: Item 2 carried? Carried. Are there any other items in vote 1401 for discussion?

Mr. Lawlor: I don’t know how I can fit this in, but perhaps with a little indulgence it might be discussed under item 3, planning and support services. In your report, you mentioned that the House of Concord, the Salvation Army house, was being acquired. That’s a pretty old building, isn’t it? Could you give us a bit more information about those plans and what is involved there?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Mr. Chairman, we have been having discussions with the Salvation Army on the possible use of the House of Concord at the present time as more of a temporary measure to help us alleviate the situation at the Don Jail in which they would operate it much like an overgrown CRC, you might say, for selected individuals who don’t need any special supervision, people who are serving short terms of maybe a month or two months.

Mr. Lawlor: There is a lot of money going to have to be spent on that building.

Hon. Mr. Potter: We are not talking about buying it. We are talking about buying service from them.

Mr. Lawlor: It is going to have to have renovations though.

Hon. Mr. Potter: I doubt it very much. I think it can be used without that. We are not putting any money into it, I can assure you.

Mr. Chairman: Is item 3 carried?

Mr. Lawlor: Just one other thing, the mention of the Don Jail perennially in these estimates brings up the perennial question of what on earth are we doing with it. What are your plans in this regard?

Hon. Mr. Potter: The old section of the Don Jail, hopefully, will be destroyed. I understand there is a group of people around here now who don’t like to see old jails or old mental hospitals or anything else destroyed. I think that we can keep them for people to look at.

Mr. Ruston: Tear it down.

Interjections by hon. members.

Hon. Mr. Potter: As far as I am concerned, the old part will be removed. As the hon. members are aware, the new section can be used, and undoubtedly in time we will have some new construction there to supplement it.

Mr. Lawlor: Has the minister any time scale? When is this going to be done?

Hon. Mr. Potter: You are aware that the new facilities, at both the east and the west end, are started. It will be next year before they are finished. Until they are finished we can’t take the pressure off the Don Jail so that we can make the necessary changes there. Just as fast as the building goes up, we’ll make changes.

Mr. Lawlor: The minister says in about a year and a half maybe.

Hon. Mr. Potter: I would think so.

Mr. Chairman: Item 3 carried. Is there any other discussion on vote 1401?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Under section 7, if I may; I just couldn’t let this one go by, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member for Essex-Kent made some comments concerning the terrific increase in the budget for information services and about putting out pamphlets. I would like him to come down some day and to show him what information services do in our ministry. Putting out the odd pamphlet is really intended for persons like himself who know very little about the system; we would like to let them know what goes on.

Mr. Ruston: I know what is doing.

Hon. Mr. Potter: At the same time, there has been an increase of $682,000 this year in the estimates for information services. Of this $682,000 -- now write this down so you make sure you have it straight -- $87,000 is provided for the increase in salaries and wages that were granted to the civil service; $13,000 is related to the increase in employee benefits; $2,000 to cover inflationary price increases in accommodation and meals; $23,000 to cover inflationary increases and to provide additional services; $534,000, which is the one the hon. member should be interested in, is the provision for the United Nations Congress which is to be held in Toronto in September and October, 1975.

The United Nations Congress is being hosted by both the federal and the provincial governments, of which we are picking up, apparently, 25 per cent of the cost up to a maximum of $534,000. We expect to have over 3,000 people from all over the world in attendance.

Another $23,000 is to cover inflationary price increases in supplies and equipment. You can see, Mr. Chairman -- and I think all members will agree -- that this was warranted. I am sure the hon. member didn’t or wasn’t suggesting for one minute that the increases in wages for the civil servants weren’t warranted.

Mr. Ruston: I never said that at any time, Mr. Chairman. I would think that the increase that was given to the civil service, especially in the Ministry of Correctional Services, was well needed, I have known this for a long time, because I have been very close to a number of the people who worked there. But when I see $500,000 going for one provision and the large increase in services, naturally I am concerned. I am still concerned about this $534,000 for this conference. Maybe the minister can explain who is going to be here. That still seems to me to be one hell of a lot of money.

Hon. Mr. Potter: I couldn’t agree with you more. It is one hell of a lot of money, but it’s a conference which was planned some years ago as an annual conference by the United Nations. Some years ago the federal government, with the assistance of this government agreed that we would host it this year. It is held in various countries in the world. This year it is being held in Toronto.

I think that we should be very proud that this conference is coming to Ontario. It will probably be the last time it will be held here for a good many years, when you consider every nation in the world is represented. We expect to have a total of around 3,000 people here, of whom at least 1,500 will be official delegates from many nations in the world. Personally, it is a lot of money, but I think it is money well spent.

Mr. Chairman: The hon. member for Lakeshore.

Mr. Lawlor: I wonder if I might have your indulgence. That grant to the department of criminology in Ottawa; what’s that about?

Hon. Mr. Potter: That’s the MA course they run for us in Ottawa on correctional administration. I referred to it in my opening comments. For students who have graduated with a BA or BSc and intend to go on and do further work in correctional work, they have this special MA course at the correctional centre in Ottawa. We assist them in order to keep the course operating. We take advantage of the flow of graduates from there. We take quite a few graduates every year.

Mr. Lawlor: How long have you been doing that?

Hon. Mr. Potter: About five years.

Mr. Lawlor: You absorb the people into your ministry?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Yes. Not all of them; some of them go to other provinces. This is a national programme.

Mr. Lawlor: Do many of them go elsewhere?

Hon. Mr. Potter: I wouldn’t say many of them go elsewhere, but some of them I suppose. I am sure we don’t get all the graduates from the college, because it is a national college.

Mr. Lawlor: The ones you assist, have you any strings tied to the assistance in any way?

Hon. Mr. Potter: If we assist anybody to go there, yes, we do; but we are giving a grant to the college. What happens is that we give a grant to the college to assist them with the programme in order to keep the programme going.

Mr. Chairman: Does the member for Lakeshore wish to continue?

Mr. Lawlor: Are you on this vote?

Mr. B. Newman: I am on staff services.

Mr. Lawlor: I want to say a word on staff training. I don’t think we can jump from a spending figure of $1 million in the estimates last year to practically an extra half million in this particular area without probing a little bit with respect to it. Could you give us an idea of why there is that fairly substantial jump -- well, it’s a 50 per cent increase.

Hon. Mr. Potter: I sure can, Mr. Chairman. I think the hon. member will appreciate from his knowledge of the institutions in the province the great need for improved staff training. There is the inquiry which is being held at the present time into the Don Jail. The second part of that commission was to investigate staff training as we have been doing in the ministry. We have had our own committee set up and which just reported last month, as a matter of fact, on recommended improvements that we could carry out. But in the meantime, we have made many changes to try to improve the situation as it is within the ministry. We now have area directors of training.

Mr. Lawlor: How many areas?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Six areas were reorganized in 1973 and six regional co-ordinators were appointed to the six regions that the ministry has. In addition to that, we have one person in each institution who is in charge of development and staff training.

We have had an increase in the probation and aftercare training development section in the branch, because we have reorganized this and increased it in size and enlarged the programme. We have developed a staff training handbook, which we have available for all members of the staff, pointing out the aspects of training and development that we expect them to accomplish in this area.

There has been considerable improvement and we feel that it’s an area that has to continue to be improved. As I said in my speech, the success of our programme depends upon the quality of the individuals who are involved as correctional officers. We must make sure that it’s an ongoing training programme.

There was a time in corrections, as there was in the police force, when an individual was hired and put to work without any training at all. Now we’re trying not only to have developed a basic training programme but to have an ongoing training programme, and at the same time, to encourage those who want to go on to get further academic training, to assist them in going back to university or to get specialized degrees. Of course, when we do that, we must insist that when they finish their training they’re available to us and don’t go somewhere else.

Mr. Lawlor: I wonder if the minister saw in the Globe and Mail this morning a fairly long article -- I forget the name of the woman writer -- about the Don Jail and about a particular guard who has recently complained to Judge Shapiro about the lack of discipline, the falling apart, the chaos that reigns as a result of the initiation of the investigations before Judge Shapiro. You must have a very considerable problem with respect to a lot of older guards. Their kind of inertia in the system would be, I suspect, perhaps your chief difficulty in trying to change established modes of thinking among the guards.

The Attica situation, as I mentioned a few moments ago, is largely an outgrowth of brutalization of prisoners by guards. That was the way it was. Again, I have inspected enough of these institutions to know that, by and large, that is not the case in Ontario. Nevertheless, it has its spots and its places too, I suspect, as has been revealed in the course of the Don investigation in that single institution. I suspect, to make a quite blunt statement, that the situation at Guelph needs continued looking at as to what has happened there in the past with the record of running gauntlets and various forms of unnecessary and completely venal harshness on the part of those who run the institutions and should know better.

When you instituted that new warden, or whatever you call him there, I got a sense of enormous change. That was 2½ or three years ago, if my time sense remains with me at all. There was a fellow coming from Britain with a very strong -- not liberal, thank God, but a humanitarian -- instinct with respect to penology and to the workings of the jails.

The problem here is therefore particularly with the older guards. What I would like to know -- perhaps if I could get a copy of the handbook for future reference that would be enough to clue me in as to the kind of thing I’m after -- is: How much time are they allowed off? Are set periods given to all guards? Are certain guards felt to require greater amounts of training than other guards? The introduction into the system of the new guard -- what periods of time, probationary time, and time in the classroom or whatever it is? What is the content of the sessions? What is the mix and who teaches it? What goes on? Why do you think it’s an upgrading, simply because you provide the forum? That’s not necessarily any indication at all. Maybe on the contrary. What is the linkage with community colleges in this particular regard, particularly with respect to the outlying reformatories of the province?

In other words I want you, for a few moments, to flesh out a bit the justification for that added spending and for the $1.5 million being spent on this single vote. In any event, I take it that the jump has largely to do with salary increases. It seems to be always the case in the various votes. Just to wind the thing up, at the end of your reply could you give us a bit about the bursaries programme to Indians? I know you mentioned it in your initial statement; I mean the $31,000 for bursary programmes to Indian students. You mentioned it in your opening statement.

Hon. Mr. Potter: In order to get the information the member requires, I could spend, I suppose, the rest of the session until the end of June telling him about the need for educational programmes for those employed in correctional services and what has gone on as far as our studies are concerned, our training guides and so on. I would be delighted to make the information available to him and he can see for himself, because really there is far too much to get into discussion about it.

Mr. Lawlor: Yes, I suspect we could spend the rest of the time on this.

Hon. Mr. Potter: I would be glad to see that this is made available to you, because it is the result of a great deal of work and a great deal of study by those in the ministry who have come up with this. We have a training manual now and, as a matter of fact, nations in Europe and other parts of the world are asking to see it because they want to take advantage of what we have done.

Mr. Lawlor: Is your claim like that of some of your confreres, that you have the finest people, etc.?

Hon. Mr. Potter: No, far from that.

Mr. Lawlor: Good for you.

Hon. Mr. Potter: In Correctional Services we have established over the past few years, mainly through my predecessors, as you mentioned here earlier, an international and interprovincial conference that is held on a regular basis in which there is a great deal of input from all countries, and of course we all take advantage of it. In this case we had a training manual that other people thought was good and were interested in, and the other provinces have accepted, but there are many programmes they have suggested that we think are good and are prepared to try.

As a matter of fact, earlier here today a suggestion was made by your critic that we should give consideration to a new programme of restitution. You would almost think that he had read one of our policy papers that was being prepared by my former deputy minister, recommending that we proceed in this manner. You can imagine how dismayed I was in discussions in Europe, particularly in Sweden and Norway, when they listened carefully for half an hour to the proposal and said “Yes, it works. We have been doing this since 1898.” So it is not new, but it is successful in many areas.

Mr. Lawlor: You have got the right kind of humility.

Hon. Mr. Potter: These are the types of things we are trying to do. We are trying to upgrade the quality of the people who work with us. We are trying to assist them because we know they have a very difficult job. We know that we can’t do it overnight; we know it is going to be a continuing basis. In our service, as in almost any service, and as far as members of the Legislature are concerned, I would venture to say, all of us have a certain length of time in which we can be useful, and I think that it is the smart man who can realize that his time is up and it is time to leave.

Mr. Reid: Are you resigning?

Mr. Lawlor: You could apply that to the whole government as a collective mentality.

Hon. Mr. Potter: By no means. As I said earlier, in our training programme we have been trying to give people experience in the various institutions. We have been arranging exchange programmes. We have been working closely with the provincial police and having some of our staff switch with provincial policemen and so on, so that each of these people will learn an appreciation of the other man’s job and some of the difficulties under which he is operating.

You have heard, as I have on many occasions, policemen complaining that they risk their lives and get a guy in court only to have the judge throw it out, or else he gets sentenced and goes to an institution, where they let him out on TAP. Unless such a policeman is in there and knows what goes on and is able to work with these people, he doesn’t appreciate why an individual is let out or why we are trying to make these changes.

You made reference to a great number of the older staff. I wouldn’t say there is a great number. There is the odd one, yes, who is still digging in his heels and running interference. But, believe me, there is one hell of a lot less interference in this ministry than there was in my former ministry.

Mr. F. Young (Yorkview): It’s still there.

Hon. Mr. Potter: But I don’t think you will disagree that this money is well spent, and I can assure you it is not being wasted. But I would be delighted to make this information available to you; I will give you the whole works.

Mr. Chairman: The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville.

Mr. B. Newman: Mr. Chairman, the minister has answered the question.

Mr. Chairman: Shall vote 1401 carry? The hon. member for Rainy River.

Mr. Reid: I will be very brief. I have two main questions under information services. How many people does the salaries and wages cover? Can you tell us what they do? And under services, $573,000, what does that amount cover?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Under information services? What was the other one?

Mr. Reid: Yes, the last item.

Hon. Mr. Potter: There are 14 staff altogether. I want to point this out -- only five of them work in information services. The others are librarians; a librarian at headquarters and librarians in various institutions.

I think what you people have to appreciate is that while we have it listed as information services in this ministry that includes the libraries in the various institutions; the books that are supplied there and the librarian.

Mr. Reid: Do you mean the books are part of salaries and wages?

Hon. Mr. Potter: No, no, I’m talking about the total budget for information services. But when you’re talking about salaries and wages it does include the librarians in the institutions, yes.

Mr. Reid: Okay. I don’t want to pursue this too far, but as the minister may know, it’s a matter I’m very interested in. How many librarians would that cover? Would the 14 people include the librarians, because what we’re looking at, Mr. Minister --

Hon. Mr. Potter: Seven librarians.

Mr. Reid: And seven information officers? Is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Potter: No, five information officers and nine librarians. I’m sorry. It says seven librarians out in the jails, two in the central region and five staff.

Mr. Reid: Five staff. All right. Since your people have that there, that comes to roughly, very quickly, somewhere around $20,000 apiece for salaries and wages, whether they’re librarians or information officers. It seems to me a little high. Could the minister break it down further for us and tell us what the nine librarians in total get and what the five information officers get?

Hon. Mr. Potter: I haven’t got the salary scale for them all here, that’s quite obvious.

Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North): Why not?

Hon. Mr. Potter: I should advise you that in addition to that -- those are full-time librarians -- we do have part-time people working in some of our smaller institutions.

Mr. Reid: But they’re not part of this 14 are they?

Hon. Mr. Potter: They’re a part of the money. They are a part of the budget.

Mr. Reid: Excuse me, Mr. Minister, I asked you how many people that $295,000 covered and you told me 14.

Hon. Mr. Potter: I haven’t got the total number of people. I can give you our permanent staff but I haven’t got the number of the others. I’ll get it for you.

Mr. Reid: I would appreciate that. Can you tell me then today what the $573,000 in services covers, unless you’ve given us that already? I may have missed that.

Hon. Mr. Potter: I did mention it. I just answered that a few moments ago.

Mr. Reid: Yes, okay, fine.

Mr. B. Newman: Mr. Chairman, is the minister aware of what the definition of “services” is in the back of the book? It doesn’t cover what you’re talking about. It should have been put in there under a different item. I would like the minister to look at page J74, because I think if we’re going to start with the first ministry not following the description of services as set down by the Ministry of Government Services, we’re not going to get correct information if we ask it concerning other ministries.

Mrs. Campbell: Read it to him.

Hon. Mr. Potter: The only reason I can suggest that it was put in information services is because they didn’t know where else to put it. I don’t know where else you would put it. If you can tell me a better place to put it, we’ll put it there.

Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview): It would certainly be helpful.

Hon. Mr. Potter: If you people know so much about it go ahead. Do you suggest that we have a special area to put the $500,000-odd?

Mr. Ruston: It’s a one-shot deal. It should have been listed by itself.

Mr. Singer: This is the whole purpose of this exercise.

Mr. Reid: So we can find out what you’re doing over there.

Mr. Singer: You are supposed to know these things.

Hon. Mr. Potter: You found out. You weren’t here. You haven’t any idea of what we’re talking about. You just came in at the last. Sit down and shut up.

Mr. Singer: I have been here long enough to know that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Mr. Chairman: Order, please.

Hon. Mr. Potter: We’ve already explained two or three times what that money was for.

Mr. Chairman: Order, please. The member for Rainy River has the floor.

Hon. Mr. Potter: There’s no sense in saying you don’t know what it’s going for; you’ve been told what it’s going for. It’s immaterial.

Mr. Reid: A further question under services: If we deduct the $534,000 that leaves $39,000 for services, which, in relation to the rest of your budgets under the various headings is a very paltry amount. What services are being provided for $39,000? The people are interested in how their money is being spent. It may come as a surprise.

Mr. Good: We intend to find out. Even if we keep you here for a week.

Hon. Mr. Potter: News letters, printing services. That’s it. No outside contracts; it’s all done in the ministry.

Mr. Reid: No outside contracts? May I ask one more time, under salaries and wages did I gather from the minister’s response that some of the $295,000 goes to people on contracts? Would it be possible for the minister now to tell me how many people on contract in total you have in the ministry?

Hon. Mr. Potter: We submitted that report in answer to a question you made just recently.

Mr. Reid: My question of seven months ago?

Hon. Mr. Potter: The report has been submitted from my office; I haven’t got a copy of it here. We have a fair number of people on contract.

Mrs. Campbell: Doesn’t everybody?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Because of the nature of the work we are doing, we have a fair amount of part-time help, particularly in the institutions. We have a lot of part-time physicians and part-time nurses and we have some part-time correctional officers and probation officers in areas to help cover off on weekends and that sort of thing. All that information is in the answer to your inquiry that you made in the Legislature and we have submitted it.

Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener): Mr. Chairman, with respect to the recent information in the budget concerning the civil service establishment -- I’m attempting to find that now -- the public service complement with respect to this ministry is shown on page B18 of the budget as being 5,056 people. Presumably the temporary, part-time and contract people to whom you are referring would not be included in that figure, would they?

Hon. Mr. Potter: No, they are not.

Mr. Breithaupt: And did you have an approximate number of the persons who are in those areas and not included in the 5,000 who are on the full-time complement? That might be of help to me.

Hon. Mr. Potter: Altogether we have 242 full-time contract people.

Mr. Reid: How many?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Two hundred and forty-two.

Mr. Breithaupt: How would one find any addition from part-time or casual employment? I presume you would have none in those particular categories?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Casual employment?

Mr. Breithaupt: Yes.

Hon. Mr. Potter: Yes we have about 900 or so, in round figures.

Mr. Breithaupt: Nine hunched of those. And are there any under the part-time category?

Hon. Mr. Potter: That’s what I was referring to.

Mr. Breithaupt: Your casual figure is the one you used?

Hon. Mr. Potter: Yes, part-time, and I’m talking about 242 full-time.

Mr. Breithaupt: Accordingly, then, between those two figures there would be some 1,100 or so who are beyond the actual civil service complement in the ministry?

Hon. Mr. Potter: It all depends on how you would interpret it, I suppose. Some of these part-time people would work one or two hours a week.

Mr. Breithaupt: I understand that. I’m just wondering about the people who might be involved.

Hon. Mr. Potter: Yes.

Mr. Breithaupt: Thank you.

Mr. Chairman: Is vote 1401 carried?

Vote 1401 agreed to.

On vote 1402:

Mr. Chairman: Vote 1402, are there any comments on any of the items?

Item 1, the member for Lakeshore.

Mr. Lawlor: I use item 1, admittedly, Mr. Chairman, because my remarks again are going to be somewhat wide-ranging in the area of adult centres. The key note of the address will be: What liaison have you? How extensive is it with the Attorney General’s department?

In this set of estimates my concern is largely with policy matters, not the figures particularly. I think it’s agreed that however beneficent the institutions may appear to be superficially, they are necessary evils; and that they are, ineluctably, breeding grounds for crime. It just can’t be helped if people of the same mentality and disposition are placed together deliberately. Can you imagine anything more fatuous than that 19th century notion, except the 17th century notion?

I mean, the 17th century notion was the business of penitential institutions. They were all monks in monasteries living in seclusion and working out their salvation by prayer and fasting. And there was more fasting than there was prayer, as far as I could figure out.

The whole business of the kind of thing we are doing here today didn’t even exist 150 or 200 years ago. There weren’t jails in our sense of the word in western civilization. There were holding places, little jails where people would stay or be held pending their trial. But once their trial took place, there wasn’t any permanent institution to which they sent them.

They sent them out to the penal colonies to get rid of them, out to Virginia -- and smoked Walter Raleigh’s tobacco -- or off to Australia. They were sent to any spot they could find around the world which was overheated and under-populated.

Or they fined them. One of the favourite tricks was to strip people of all their property. That would sufficiently teach them a lesson, by George. They wouldn’t likely bounce back in a hurry. Of course, the master criminals among them had to find more invidious ways of restoring the lost property.

Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet): They couldn’t make 100 per cent on a house in those days.

Mr. Breithaupt: Only the ones that came here.

Mr. Reid: Yes, they went into politics. Federal politics.

Mr. Lawlor: Mr. Chairman, the new phase into which I am going to insert myself would be better done on another day, if the House feels that it is time to rise. I want to talk about a new phase.

Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that the committee rise and report.

Motion agreed to.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Mr. Chairman: Mr. Speaker, the committee of supply begs to report a certain resolution and asks for leave to sit again.

Report agreed to.

Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet): Mr. Speaker, as previously announced we will deal with item 1 on the order paper on Monday. On Tuesday and Thursday I expect we will return to consideration of the tax bills, as announced previously in the week. Next Friday I will announce in due course.

Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener): Before the adjournment, is it expected that we will be able to deal with the Representation Act as well next week, or can the minister give us any idea when that might be called?

Hon. Mr. Winkler: It will depend, Mr. Speaker, on the progress of the tax bills that we deal with next week. It is my intention, if that occurs, that we will deal with both of the bills, the election expenses bill and the redistribution bill, if that time is given to us next week, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Breithaupt: Might I suggest that if the tax bills are going to take some time, that it might be worthwhile to consider an evening session next week?

Hon. Mr. Winkler: Because of other previous arrangements I haven’t yet seen fit to do that, but it is a matter that I certainly will consider. We will start sitting evenings, I would suggest to you, on April 21 -- that’s a week Monday.

Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.

Motion agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1 o’clock, p.m.