Assemblée législative de l'Ontario

The committee met at 0900 in room 151 and by video conference.

Compassionate Care Act, 2020 Loi de 2020 sur les soins de compassion

Consideration of the following bill:

Bill 3, An Act providing for the development of a provincial framework on hospice palliative care / Projet de loi 3, Loi prévoyant l’élaboration d’un cadre provincial des soins palliatifs.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order. We are here today to conduct clause-by-clause consideration of Bill 3, An Act providing for the development of a provincial framework on hospice palliative care.

We have the following members present in the room: MPP Schreiner, MPP Gélinas, MPP Oosterhoff, MPP Fraser and MPP Shaw. The following MPPs are participating remotely: MPP Bailey, MPP Kramp and MPP Fee. Are there any other MPPs online who I have missed? No.

Staff from Hansard, broadcast and recording, and legislative counsel join us remotely today.

To make sure that everyone can understand what is going on, it is important that all participants speak slowly and clearly. Please wait until I recognize you before starting to speak. Since it could take a little time for your audio and video to come up after I recognize you, please take a brief pause before beginning. As always, all comments should go through the Chair.

The Clerk has distributed the amendment packages to all members and staff electronically. Are there any questions before we begin? Are there any questions or comments to any section of the bill and, if so, to which section? MPP Fraser.

Mr. John Fraser: To the bill itself—excuse me; my mask broke.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Yes, to the bill itself.

Mr. John Fraser: I just want to say at the outset that I appreciate the time to be here at this committee to work on this bill—

Interjection.

Mr. John Fraser: Oh, sorry. Pardon me—to do work on this bill. Thank you very much. I think we’ve worked very collaboratively, and I look at the amendments and they’re all very friendly. I look forward to being here this morning and going through some of the clause-by-clause with all of you, and I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Are there any comments or questions to any section of the bill? Oh, MPP—

Mr. Robert Bailey: Madam Chair—

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Sorry. I just wanted to confirm that MPP Glover has joined us on Zoom. Can you confirm that you are MPP Glover and that you are present in Ontario?

Mr. Chris Glover: Yes, I’m MPP Glover and I’m in Ontario.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you.

Mr. Robert Bailey: Madam Chair?

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Yes, MPP Bailey?

Mr. Robert Bailey: I’m having difficulty hearing the people in the room. I don’t know whether they can turn the volume up or speak closer to their mikes. I can hear you fine, but I could barely hear MPP Fraser, so I don’t know whether it’s the audio—

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Fraser was not speaking into the mike. I will remind him to speak into the microphone.

Mr. Robert Bailey: Okay.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you.

I’ve also noticed that we have MPP Kusendova, who has joined us on Zoom. MPP Kusendova, can you please confirm that you are present and that you are in Ontario?

Ms. Natalia Kusendova: Good morning, Chair. I am MPP Natalia Kusendova, and I’m present in Vaughan, Ontario, this morning.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff?

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Since we’re speaking to the whole bill, I just wanted to acknowledge all the work of the committee members, and also the presentations. I know there were quite a few presentations for a private member’s bill, but I think it just goes to speak to the importance of the subject matter.

I also just want to say that there are going to be amendments that will be supported, amendments that might be changed and amendments that will not be supported, but I do believe that the intent both of the committee and of all of us in this room is one of unity on this issue, which is nice to see in a time where there are a lot of differences in approach and differences in perspective on many different issues, so I just want to thank you all for your due diligence to this.

I’m not a regular member of the committee. Typically, I’m on a couple of other committees. I just want to say it has been a privilege to be allowed to be a part of all of this, and I look forward to being able to pass something that will improve the lives, and hopefully the last days, of many Ontarians.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you very much, MPP Oosterhoff. MPP Schreiner?

Mr. Mike Schreiner: I’ll go from this mike, because I want to make sure we keep our physical distance, out of safety.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): If you could just move the mike closer to you, the whole thing, and then lean into it a little bit.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: If it will allow me to. Thank you, Chair.

I was going to say this before I move my first amendment, but maybe it’s appropriate to do it now. I just want to thank MPP Oosterhoff for bringing this bill forward. I want to thank the committee members, because it has been a pretty collaborative process. There were a number of presenters for a private member’s bill, which I think just highlights the importance of this bill. Any amendments I brought forward are really in the spirit of collaboration and improvement, and in no way suggest criticism of the bill. I wanted to make that clear. Thank you, Chair.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you very much, MPP Schreiner. Since we’re on this topic, I’d like to thank all the committee members, as well, for their collaborative work. I think this is one of the best committees in the Legislature. I’m proud to put that on Hansard. I just appreciate everyone working together collaboratively on this.

Before we continue, I just wanted to confirm we have MPP Amarjot Sandhu who has joined us. MPP Sandhu, can you please confirm that you are present in Ontario and that you are MPP Sandhu?

Mr. Amarjot Sandhu: Good morning, Chair. I’m MPP Sandhu and I’m present in Brampton, Ontario. Thank you.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you very much. MPP Oosterhoff?

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Yes, I just wanted some clarification on how this works for independent members if there are two on the committee. Are they typically both voting members?

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): No, MPP Schreiner would be moving any motions on behalf of the independents.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Okay.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. We’ll now turn to the bill. We have an independent motion on section 0.1. Who would like to move this? MPP Schreiner?

Mr. Mike Schreiner: I move that that section 0.1 be added to the bill:

“Purpose

“0.1 The purpose of this act is to ensure that every Ontarian has access to quality hospice palliative and end of life care.”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. MPP Schreiner has moved independent motion number 1. Is there any debate? MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: I brought forward this amendment mostly because we had so many presenters talk about the importance of ensuring that the resources, the framework and the focus of this bill being successful were to provide palliative and end-of-life care. I thought it would be important to make it clear that that is the purpose of the bill, to guide direction. Thank you, Chair.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you very much. MPP Schreiner? Sorry, MPP Fraser.

Mr. John Fraser: Thank you very much, Chair. I want to thank my colleague the member from Guelph, MPP Schreiner, for allowing me to work with him on amendments to this bill.

This particular purpose, I believe—we believe—is something that should be in this bill. That’s why we’re doing it. Having looked through the amendments in the package—we’ll hear from the other side—we may hear some challenges around the language and concerns about where it is in the bill. I’d encourage members to support this bill, but I would encourage us to make sure we get this in the bill in some form, somewhere. If the government feels that they can’t support it, if we can work together to get it in somehow—I think that we all agree that this is the purpose, so I’ll just leave it at that.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Move the microphone closer to you.

Mr. John Fraser: Sorry. Yes, I’ll just leave it at that.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. MPP Gélinas?

M^me France Gélinas: Although I support the spirit of what they’re trying to do, a lot of people who came and did deputations kind of updated the language on palliative care. A lot of them do not—

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Move the microphone closer to you, as well. I think that would help. And lift it up a little bit.

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M^me France Gélinas: A lot of the presenters did not want us to refer specifically to hospice palliative care, because so much of it can be done at home now, and we’re moving away from the end of life, unless you really want to focus on end of life. So a friendly amendment would be—I’m all for having a purpose for the bill: “The purpose of this act is to ensure that every Ontarian has access to quality palliative care,” and if we want, “and end-of-life care.” But I would take away the term “hospice,” although I love all of our hospices and want more, just because of what we’ve learned about the language evolving in that sector.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Absolutely. There are actually amendments coming forward. We’re going to be—

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff, sorry, if you could just—

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Sorry. My apologies. Absolutely agreed, and that’s something that we are going to be making changes to in the amendments, as I’m sure you can see in later ones.

I just want to say that we would be willing to support it, but I would want to see, perhaps, just an addition: “The purpose of the act is to develop a framework to ensure,” so the addition of that language, if you’re okay with that, would make me more comfortable with it.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: Yes, it’s interesting; I asked the Clerk right before committee started if there were opportunities to make some changes to my amendment, and I was told that I would need to resubmit another amendment. Is that correct?

M^me France Gélinas: Unanimous consent does it quicker.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: Because I agree with you: We did not want to put “hospice palliative care” into it, but I was told that because that was the way the bill was originally framed by the drafter, I had to do that. So I would be open to doing a unanimous consent motion to incorporate all of the suggestions that have been brought forward.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Sorry, just—

Interjection.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): I’ll get to you as well, MPP Fraser.

MPP Oosterhoff, you mentioned that there is something further on that incorporates a similar—because we have two options here. We could either recess and MPP Schreiner could withdraw his motion and then come back with a friendly amendment, or if there is something similar in the legislation, maybe we could take a quick look at it now and see if that suits everyone.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Amendment number 2 knocks out all the references to and pretty much erases “hospice.” If you look at—

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Okay, so before we withdraw your motion, maybe the committee could just take a moment and look at the next amendment, and then see.

MPP Fraser?

Mr. John Fraser: I think what my colleague is saying is that the language that we’re looking at changing in this amendment is going to be reflected through the bill, or reflected through the amendments put forward by the government. I think what he’s saying is this language matches, and you’d like to add “developing a framework” at the front of that purpose in a new amendment.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Yes, so between, “The purpose of this act is to ensure that every Ontarian,” and then in between, “is to ensure,” it would be, “The purpose of this act is to develop a framework to ensure.”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): I think at this point, what we’ll do is we’ll take, let’s say, a five-to-10-minute—

M^me France Gélinas: No, no, no. There’s no need.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Sorry? No need?

M^me France Gélinas: No, we all agree. We all agree.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Have you agreed on the language?

M^me France Gélinas: Yes.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Okay. The Clerk is requesting a 10-minute recess so that they can draft it properly. Perhaps we might not need 10 minutes, but let’s say a five-minute recess just so that the legislative staff can get the proper terminology, and then we can move forward. That’s what they’re requesting.

M^me France Gélinas: I say let us read it just to make sure that we all agree on what we’ve agreed to—

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): We can do that during the recess. That’s why we’re recessing right now, so we can get this done and then come back.

Ms. Sandy Shaw: We want to hear, so we agree—just read what you’ve prepared.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Okay. All right.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: I can read what my thought is: “The purpose of this act is to develop a framework to ensure that every Ontarian has access to quality palliative and end-of-life care.”

Interjections.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Sorry, for the purposes of Hansard, it’s a little difficult to keep track of who’s saying what, so I would ask that all comments be made through the Chair.

At this point, I just want to—

Interjections.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): This is for the benefit of legislative staff. We’re going to take a five-minute recess.

The committee recessed from 0916 to 0922.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you, everyone. We’ll now resume. MPP Schreiner, you have the floor.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: I’ll withdraw amendment 1.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. MPP Schreiner has withdrawn amendment number 1.

We’ll now move to government motion number 2. Who would like to move this motion? MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: MPP Kramp first had a comment, I think.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Ah, MPP Kramp, yes?

Mr. Daryl Kramp: Thank you, Chair. I’m just wondering, every time we make a small amendment, do we have to go into recess?

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): We’re going to try not to. The issue is that legislative counsel is not in the room. But we are trying to see if there’s a faster way of doing this.

Mr. Daryl Kramp: Thank you.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: I move that subsection 1(1) of the bill be struck out and the following substituted:

“Provincial framework on palliative care

“1(1) The Minister of Health shall develop a provincial framework designed to support improved access to palliative care, provided through hospitals, home care, long-term care homes and hospices, that, among other things,

“(a) defines what palliative care is;

“(b) identifies the palliative care training and education needs of health care providers as well as other caregivers;

“(c) identifies measures to support palliative care providers;

“(d) identifies research and common data elements on palliative care;

“(e) identifies measures to facilitate consistent access to palliative care across Ontario;

“(f) takes into consideration existing palliative care frameworks, strategies and best practices;

“(g) takes into consideration the needs of specific patient populations, including paediatric patients; and

“(h) leverages the expertise and capacities of other key partners in Ontario’s health system, such as the Ministry of Long-Term Care, Ontario Health, Ontario health teams, and other providers and organizations.”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Is there any debate? MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: I say you nailed it on this one. Well done.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. MPP Shaw?

Ms. Sandy Shaw: I just wanted to make reference to clause (g). We’ll see in other amendments as we move forward that there are other amendments that came from the independent and also the New Democrats to have a stand-alone clause that refers to pediatric palliative care. So while I appreciate the inclusion, I actually think it deserves its own clause.

We talked a lot about underserved populations: Indigenous communities, the Far North. I don’t know whether the interests of the committee are to identify those underserved—this could perhaps be long. But I do think, out of due respect for the importance of pediatric palliative care and how for so many years, it’s been an afterthought or an add-on, it would at least merit its own clause, rather than just an inclusion at the end.

I don’t know if MPP Oosterhoff would be amenable to this, but if we look at the independent’s amendment number 4 and then if we look at the NDP amendment number 7—somewhere between the two of those. I think at the very least if it had its own clause that would put the weight that it deserves on the importance of that issue. Thank you.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Thank you very much, Chair. We want to, of course, recognize the needs of specific patient populations, but this is the only subpopulation within the population that has a specific reference. So this is our intention of acting in good faith towards both the presentations that came forward and the members of the opposition who have raised this particular point. We agree with the need for extra pediatric care, and so that’s why we have this specific reference and believe that that covers the intents and purposes of that amendment that comes forward from the opposition.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Further debate? Seeing none, are the members ready to vote? Shall section 1, motion number 2, carry? All those in favour, raise your hands. All those opposed, please raise your hands. I declare the motion carried.

Turning now to NDP motion number 3. Who would like to move this motion? MPP Shaw.

Ms. Sandy Shaw: I move that subsection 1(1) of the bill be amended by adding “and implement” after “develop” in the portion before clause (a).

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Is there any debate—oh, sorry. Committee members, the proposed amendment is out of order. As Bosc and Gagnon note on page 769 of the third edition of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, “Once a line of a clause has been amended by the committee, it cannot be further amended by a subsequent amendment as a given line may be amended only once.”

Ms. Sandy Shaw: I would note that the entire bill is just one subsection.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): The motion is out of order.

We’ll move to independent motion number 4. Who would like to move this motion? MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: I move that subsection 1(1) of the bill be amended by adding the following clause:

“(c.1) identifies needs specific to paediatric palliative care;”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Committee members, on independent motion number 4, the proposed amendment is out of order. As Bosc and Gagnon note on page 769 of the third edition of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, “Once a line of a clause has been amended by the committee, it cannot be further amended by a subsequent amendment as a given line may be amended only once.”

MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: I seek unanimous consent that we add a specific clause identifying needs specific to palliative care. I seek unanimous consent that we do that.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Do we have unanimous consent from the committee?

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Sorry, can you repeat that?

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Do we have unanimous consent from the committee to consider—

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Sorry, did you say pediatrics—

M^me France Gélinas: Correct. I seek unanimous consent of the committee that we consider this amendment.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. MPP Gélinas has requested unanimous consent from the committee to consider amendment number 4. Do we have unanimous consent? All those in favour please raise your hands. All those opposed? We have unanimous consent. Thank you. Is there any debate on independent motion number 4? MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: Thank you, Chair. I just—

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Please speak into your mike.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: Oh, sorry. There, is that better? I will get right up by it.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): It’s for the benefit of the Zoom members.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: Of course. I appreciate that. Thank you, Chair. We put forward this amendment primarily because we had so many presenters come to committee to talk about the importance of specifically identifying pediatric palliative care and felt that it merited its own specific clause in the bill.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. MPP Oosterhoff?

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Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Thank you very much, Chair. I do understand the importance of this, of course. However, I recommend voting against this motion, because we do have a requirement added in clause (g) for the minister to take into consideration the needs of pediatric patients, and so this motion is duplicative.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Further debate? Seeing none, are the members prepared to vote? All those in favour of the motion, please raise their hands. All those opposed, please raise their hands. I declare the motion lost.

Turning now to independent motion number 5, who would like to move this motion? MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: I move that clause 1(1)(d) of the bill be struck out and the following substituted:

“(d) promotes research and systematic, standardized data collection on palliative care, which shall include the collection of data from both formal and informal caregivers and research into bereavement;”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Committee members, on independent motion number 5, the proposed amendment is out of order. As Bosc and Gagnon note on page 769 of the third edition of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, “Once a line of a clause has been amended by the committee, it cannot be further amended by a subsequent amendment as a given line may be amended only once.”

MPP Gélinas?

M^me France Gélinas: Unanimous consent that we debate the amendment.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Do we have unanimous consent from the committee? Are there any noes? I see two noes. We do not have unanimous consent.

Turning now to independent motion number 6, who would like to—

Mr. Chris Glover: Madam Speaker?

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Glover, yes?

Mr. Chris Glover: I’d just like to comment. At the beginning of this meeting, we heard about collaboration and working together. If those weren’t just empty words, then I would expect the government side to at least allow these amendments to be considered during this committee hearing. So in the spirit of collaboration, I’d ask the government members to allow these amendments to be considered and voted on independently.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: If I remember correctly, there was an assertion that there was too much collaboration at that time. But I do take the member’s words into account, and I hope that we will still be able to consider the amendments that come forward, whether or not they’re necessarily ruled out of order.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you.

We’ll now turn to independent motion number 6. Who would like to move this motion? MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: I move that subsection 1(1) of the bill be amended by adding the following clause:

“(d.1) identifies measures to facilitate equitable access to palliative care across Ontario, with a focus on underserved populations;”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): On independent motion number 6, the proposed amendment is out of order. As Bosc and Gagnon note on page 769 of the third edition of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, “Once a line of a clause has been amended by the committee, it cannot be further amended by a subsequent amendment as a given line may be amended only once.”

MPP Gélinas?

M^me France Gélinas: Do we have unanimous consent that you could just read that it is out of order and not the rest of the text? Do we all agree that you don’t need to read that anymore?

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): I am happy to do that, as long as no one complains later that the proper reasoning wasn’t provided.

M^me France Gélinas: Do we have unanimous consent that we all know the proper reasoning at this point and we don’t need this? All right. That’s my first point.

My second point is that I seek unanimous consent to be able to debate motion number 6.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Okay. I can shorten it, but I still have to give the reason, so I will read it as fast as possible.

The motion is out of order.

M^me France Gélinas: I’ll ask for unanimous consent for us to debate motion number 6.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Do we have unanimous consent to debate independent motion number 6? We have unanimous consent—sorry, any opposed? Thank you.

MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: I want to thank all members for granting unanimous consent to consider this amendment, because I think it’s an important amendment. There were a number of presenters who talked about the lack of access to palliative care for a number of underserved populations across the province, and so I thought having a focus that really addressed that in the development of the framework was really important. The purpose of this motion is to highlight the need to ensure that we identify and serve and overcome the barriers that underserved populations face in accessing palliative care.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Fraser.

Mr. John Fraser: I agree with my colleague from Guelph, MPP Schreiner. There are a number of underserved populations in Ontario—homeless. In this city, PEACH helps them. In my city, it’s the Diane Morrison Hospice. They’re very challenging populations to be able to serve because of where they live or they don’t live and their particular life challenges. I think it’s important to recognize those, recognize it in the bill. That’s why that amendment was put forward, so that we don’t forget there are populations—they’re not just underserved, they’re hard to serve. There are different challenges. Typically, for instance, the hospices that you find serving homeless populations are not the same as the ones that we see in many of our communities, and sometimes the home care approach is very different as well, too.

I think it’s an important principle to have in the bill to recognize. I think we’re trying to reflect everybody in this bill as best we can without making the list too long, and I think the language is conservative and concise enough that it’s something we should consider including in the bill.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Yes, I think this type of amendment—to be honest, it seems a little bit superfluous, in the sense that it speaks to the very heart of the bill; that’s the intent of the bill. But we do support this motion, because we, of course, understand the importance of identifying those needs and serving those underserved populations. We will be supporting it, but I would just say that it’s the whole reason for the bill in the first place, right? I just wanted to make that point.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): I’ll just remind all members to speak into the microphone for the benefit of the Zoom members. Move the microphone closer to you if you need to. Thank you.

Further debate? MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: I just want to put on the record that when we talk about underserved populations, all of the First Nations and the Indigenous people who I serve are part of underserved populations.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: I agree with MPP Gélinas on that particular point, and certainly had that consideration in drafting this particular motion—Indigenous people, First Nations, Métis and Inuit people across Ontario, in the drafting of this particular motion.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Further debate? MPP Kusendova.

Ms. Natalia Kusendova: I just wanted also to express my support for this amendment. As I’ve said many times in this committee, my city of Mississauga is one of the underserved populations, especially when it comes to residential palliative care, so I wholeheartedly support this amendment. I also wanted to express that the francophone community also would be reflected in this amendment as well.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Is there any further debate? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote? MPP Kramp?

Mr. Daryl Kramp: I certainly have no difficulty with that. The only challenge I have is, of course, once we start to specify whether it is francophone, whether it is First Nations—regardless, there are many, many, many other deserving either demographics and/or causes that either could or should be included in this. The challenge is once we specify exactly, the inference could be that we are not considering the inclusion of others. I like the catch-all better myself, personally, but I will go along with the will of the committee.

I do think it would be much more positive to make it a broad-based concern rather than to specify, because it certainly could lead us to indicate that we’re not as concerned about other organizations and/or entities that deserve care.

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The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. MPP Gélinas?

M^me France Gélinas: I think MPP Kramp makes a good point. That’s why the language in the motion as written will solely refer to underserved populations. The rest of it was just conversations we were having amongst ourselves. I think you make a good point.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Schreiner?

Mr. Mike Schreiner: I just wanted to reiterate that I appreciate you bringing that up, MPP Kramp. That was exactly why we used the word “underserved.” I felt it was just too difficult to start identifying specific populations because you could leave people or whatever. I think it’s just important to recognize that a number of presenters talked about the challenges of accessing palliative care, and just to make sure that we highlight in the development of the framework that that be addressed.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Is there any further debate? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote?

All those in favour, please raise your hands. All those in favour of amendment 6, please raise their hands. All those opposed? I declare the amendment carried.

Turning now to NDP motion number 7: Who would like to move this motion?

Ms. Sandy Shaw: I’ll move that.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. MPP Shaw, if you could make sure you’re speaking into the microphone.

Ms. Sandy Shaw: I move that subsection 1(1) of the bill be amended by striking out “and” at the end of clause (e) and by adding the following clause:

“(e.1) identifies measures to support the unique needs associated with paediatric hospice palliative care; and”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. On NDP motion number 7, the proposed amendment is out of order. Once the line of a clause has been amended by a committee, it cannot be further amended by a subsequent amendment, as the given line may be amended only once.

MPP Gélinas?

M^me France Gélinas: Thank you for shrinking this. I fully appreciate it.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): I’m trying.

M^me France Gélinas: I seek unanimous consent to be able to debate motion number 7.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Do we have unanimous consent from the committee? All those in favour? Any opposed? Seeing none, we have unanimous consent to consider this amendment. Is there any debate? MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Yes. As referenced earlier, I definitely understand the intent and support the intent. I believe this is already caught under section (g).

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Further debate? MPP Gélinas?

M^me France Gélinas: I won’t disagree with the member. During the proceedings, I wanted to make sure that we put on the record that we all heard that pediatric palliative care is the poorly funded side of a poorly funded service, and that we all agree that when the framework is developed, we expect the framework to dig into what pediatric palliative care should look like. I just wanted the opportunity to put it on the record that whoever is tasked with developing the framework hopefully will review some of the discussions we’ve had and will fully understand that we’re all in support of looking deeply into the unique needs associated with pediatric palliative care.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. MPP Shaw?

Ms. Sandy Shaw: I think it’s important to note that the bill, as amended in subsection 1, doesn’t say “identifies measures.” It just says “takes into consideration,” which really, to me, is not good enough if we are really taking seriously the issue of pediatric palliative care and how, since the time my sister died 45 years ago until now, very little has changed. “Taking into consideration” does not have the weight, doesn’t have the teeth, doesn’t have the emphasis that some of the other subsections have, which all say “identifies,” “identifies measures.” This one just says “takes into consideration.” To me, “takes into consideration” is just a passing glance: “Oh, yeah. I’ll take that into consideration.”

To me, it doesn’t reflect what we heard at committee, and I would say to MPP Oosterhoff—and I won’t speak for you, but I would suggest that it doesn’t reflect how seriously you take this issue, and I know you do. So I think that it just deserves to have an underscore, an emphasis, its own clause to show that this is something that the committee heard. We heard the heartbreaking stories. We heard Mr. Howieson come and talk about his daughter Lidia. At the very least, when we have this opportunity before us that may not come again, why not take the opportunity to specifically identify and give pediatric palliative care patients, these kids and their families the due consideration that they deserve?

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Fraser.

Mr. John Fraser: I agree with MPP Shaw. The language in it is much stronger and is reflective of the rest of the language that’s in the bill. It’s actually stronger than the amendment that we put forward. I would encourage the government to consider that, to have that language match the language that’s in the rest of the bill. That’s what we heard at committee a lot. I think it’s a good amendment to the bill. I’m glad that the government has granted UC to allow us to debate this, and I think the language is exactly the kind of language you want in the bill and is reflective of the rest of the language in the bill. So I’d ask that all members of the committee consider supporting this amendment.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Further debate? MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: What we have right now is, “takes into consideration the needs of specific patient populations, including paediatric patients.” We all heard the same story, that pediatric palliative care is in need. I’m wondering if we could all agree to something a little bit more than “taking into consideration,” amending an amendment so that at the end of the day we all agree as to what we want to do.

I really hate it when it’s a legislative process that keeps us from doing what we want to do. We are legislators. The laws that we’re putting forward should reflect what we want, and to bring legislative barriers to getting to do what every parliamentarian in this room wants to do is not acceptable. I want to find a way forward so that the wish of every parliamentarian in this room and on Zoom is respected.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: I think the way we could try to find a bit of a middle ground is in a way that has a support mechanism in there—so if we go back and say it “takes into consideration and supports the needs of specific patient populations, including paediatric patients”, would that give it a little bit more teeth and emphasize that support piece? I think we can support that.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Do we have agreement on MPP Oosterhoff’s suggestion? MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: I think it’s coming closer to what we want to do, so it’s a step in the right direction that I would support.

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The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Okay. Committee members, what we will do is—what is the wording that everyone is agreeing on right now? MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: So you go to clause (g), and in clause (g), you add the words—

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Sorry. To be very clear, clause (g) of amendment number 2, correct?

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Correct. Clause (g) of amendment number 2, “takes into consideration,” which is already there, and adding “and supports the needs of specific ... populations....” So it adds just two words, “and supports,” between “consideration” and “the.”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): So you’re proposing for it to say, “takes into consideration and supports the needs of specific patient populations, including paediatric patients”? Is everyone in agreement with that proposed change? Okay.

What we’ll do, then, because this amendment that we’re currently considering amends a different portion of that one, this amendment could be withdrawn. We will continue moving forward with the rest of the clause-by-clause. In the meantime, legislative counsel will draft the proposed amendment that was currently discussed and then bring that back, and we can seek unanimous consent to discuss it.

MPP Fraser?

Mr. John Fraser: Have we received the first draft back from the—

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): We have, but we’ll deal with that at the end, because we’re still going through it. But it is here, so we will deal with that.

The NDP, would you like to withdraw your motion?

Ms. Sandy Shaw: In good faith, I will consider withdrawing the motion, but I don’t know how to ensure that I withdraw the motion and the amendment that’s put forward—do we have a commitment that the amendment will be put forward?

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff and everyone on the committee, do we have an agreement, then, that when this motion is withdrawn by the NDP, someone will bring a new motion with the wording that was discussed and agreed upon by the committee and the committee will give unanimous consent? Do we have that friendly agreement in principle? MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Absolutely, and MPP Shaw can bring it forward as well. That’s fine.

Ms. Sandy Shaw: Thank you.

At the risk of belabouring everybody’s patience, the word “unique” is pretty important. I’m happy with this amendment, I’m happy that it’s in here, but it says “the needs of specific patient populations,” which is fine, but I also think what we heard so much was that the needs of pediatrics are so unique. They’re not small adults; their needs are unique. I would ask that perhaps, when the amendment comes forward, we consider using the word “unique.” But I am pleased that we’ve gotten this far, and so, Madam Chair, I am prepared to withdraw this motion.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you, MPP Shaw. Thank you, everyone, for your co-operation. I declare motion number 7 withdrawn.

We now turn to NDP motion number 8. Who would like to move this motion? MPP Shaw.

Ms. Sandy Shaw: I have my mask off, so I’ll take the opportunity to move another motion.

I move that section 1 of the bill be amended by adding the following subsection:

“Family supports

“(1.1) Without limiting the generality of subsection (1), the strategy shall include the development of targeted support for families of individuals receiving hospice palliative care, including psychosocial, spiritual and bereavement supports.”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Is there any debate? MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Again, understanding the intent of this motion—we all recognize the importance of family supports. We’ve heard from many witnesses about this. But we also want to ensure that the minister is able to ensure that the legislation is not being overly prescriptive as to the outcome of the consultation framework. So we will not be supporting this.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Further debate? MPP Shaw.

Ms. Sandy Shaw: Fair enough, MPP Oosterhoff. I hear you on that. But if you look at the bill, it doesn’t mention family supports. It talks about caregivers, and I suppose that could imply families, but we don’t address the magnitude of the support the families need when they’re going through this, particularly, again, in the pediatric population. Kids can be sick from the time they’re born well into their early adulthood. That’s a long time.

The inclusion of the word “family” I think would reflect, as you keep saying, the spirit of this bill, which is to provide palliative care to everyone in a way that is supportive and recognizes the pain and suffering that families go through, and that they also need respite and support. That’s a long way of me saying that I think we should be acknowledging families in this, as well as caregivers.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Gélinas?

M^me France Gélinas: Another thing that we heard a lot about is bereavement. Again, the definition of palliative care is changing. As more and more mainly hospices become good at providing palliative care, we see the importance of bereavement support, bereavement care. We’ve had many presenters talk to us about this.

This not only talks about family, it talks about psychosocial, it talks about spiritual and it talks about bereavement. Of the three—I think all three of them are important, but I wish bereavement would be part of the bill some place, if not in this particular amendment, then if we could find a way to talk about bereavement. Because in the medical definition of palliative care, bereavement is not there because the patient does not bereave. The patient is not there any more. It is the family members, the caregivers, the friends etc. who bereave. If we could find a friendly way to bring that language in, I think it would make the development of the framework even stronger and would be in line with what we heard.

We don’t have a chance to talk about palliative care in this place very often. I’ve learned tons listening to the people who came and did presentations in front of us, but what really stuck in my mind is how much the language had evolved since we last talked about palliative care. I think it would be important to reflect that in whatever form Bill 3 ends up having.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Further debate? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote? All those in favour of NDP motion number 8, please raise their hands. All those opposed, please raise their hands. I declare the motion lost.

Turning now to government motion number 9, who would like to move it? MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: I move that subsection 2(2) of the bill is struck out and the following substituted:

“Development of framework

“(2) In the development of the framework, the minister shall consider information and feedback received from previous and ongoing consultations with palliative care providers, other affected ministries, the federal government and any other persons or entities.”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Is there any debate? MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: The original language limited the minister to utilizing future consultations in developing the framework, and we heard a lot during the hearings about existing frameworks within the ministry—or, not frameworks, necessarily, but existing consultations, existing strategies and existing work that has been done. We don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We obviously want to include those and the best practices from those, so we want to make sure that the ability of the minister is not constricted to widely consult within the sector in the development of this framework.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. I’ll just remind all members to speak into their microphones, please.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: I sit too far back every time.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff, could you please just repeat the first line of the motion? I need to hear “subsection 1(2) of the bill.” Can you just repeat that?

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: I move that subsection 1(2) of the bill is struck out and the following substituted.

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The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you—just for clarification purposes.

Is there any further debate? MPP Shaw.

Ms. Sandy Shaw: I just wanted to ask MPP Oosterhoff if, for example, the intention of this amendment would be to include the work of groups like the OPCN or the Provincial Pediatric Palliative Care Steering Committee.

Interjection.

Ms. Sandy Shaw: Okay. Thank you.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Sorry, MPP Oosterhoff. Your response?

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Absolutely.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Is there any further debate? Seeing none, are the members prepared to vote? All those in favour of government motion number 9, please raise their hands. All those opposed? I declare the motion carried.

Turning now to independent motion number 10, who would like to move this motion? MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: I move that subsection 1(2) of the bill be amended by striking out “the federal government and” and substituting “the federal government, Indigenous communities and”.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): On independent motion number 10, committee members, the proposed amendment is out of order. Once a line of a clause has been amended by committee, it cannot be further amended by a subsequent amendment as a given line may be amended only once.

MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: Can we have unanimous consent to debate motion 10?

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Do we have unanimous consent from the committee to debate and consider independent motion number 10? All those in favour? All those opposed? Seeing no opposition, I declare we have unanimous consent to discuss.

MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: Thank you, members of the committee, for giving us the opportunity to debate this particular motion.

I thought it was important to include Indigenous communities, especially because we specifically identify the federal government, and First Nations are independent nations and governments. I thought if we’re going to be consulting the federal government, we should be consulting other governments as well, so that was the purpose of this motion.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. MPP Fraser.

Mr. John Fraser: I agree with my colleague from Guelph. It’s very important that we make this recognition in the bill. That’s why the amendment was put forward. I fully support it.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Shaw.

Ms. Sandy Shaw: I also support this inclusion. I know we talked a lot about underserved populations, and we didn’t prescribe them, but it certainly wouldn’t be a departure from how we’ve treated First Nations by developing programs without consulting them. I think it would be important that moving forward we make sure that we consult Indigenous nations when we’re talking about services that impact them directly, so I support this motion as well.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Further debate? MPP Kramp.

Mr. Daryl Kramp: I would not support this, not because I don’t have care of certain First Nations; I have a significant First Nations reserve just within my riding, as a matter of fact. But I think if we become prescriptive, I would not want other organizations, groups and/or entities to feel that they have to play second fiddle. To my mind, this is a one-and-all situation. You fall within the Dominion of Canada. You should apply [inaudible] right across the board. Certainly, obviously, within our realities of the province of Ontario, this is definitely—it should be everybody. This is not a question of identifying this group over that group, so I would not support one over the other.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Further debate? MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: I think the recommendations from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission made it pretty clear that when we are talking about different levels of government—in this time, the new carried motion number 9 says “other affected ministries,” that’s at the provincial level, “the federal government,” and then it goes on to say “any other entities.” It would be in line with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that we name First Nations by their names—I have no problem with calling them “Indigenous communities”—just to be in line with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff?

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: The Connecting Care Act, 2019, recognizes the centrality of the role of Indigenous peoples in the planning, design delivery and evaluation of health services in their communities, and so we believe that would already ensure that the Minister of Health would have to consult widely in the development.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Glover?

Mr. Chris Glover: I appreciate what MPP Oosterhoff just said, but I think they’re missing the point. The point here is that it is a separate government. The First Nations, our First Nations, are separate nations and somewhat independent nations. I think it is important to say “Indigenous communities.” I think this wording is absolutely vital, especially in light of the Truth and Reconciliation recommendations, so I’m hoping everybody on this committee will support it.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Shaw?

Ms. Sandy Shaw: I would like to start by beginning I don’t see the damage that it would cause to include “Indigenous communities” so that it would identify the spirit of which MPP Oosterhoff has just talked about. But I think I will just put it on the record, and I would like to remind all MPPs of this Legislature, that the province of Ontario is a signatory to a number of treaties across the province that obligate us to ensure that we respect the independence and autonomy of First Nations governance across Ontario. So putting this in here is in no way out of line with what we have already agreed to through the health act and through our commitments to treaties in this province.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Schreiner?

Mr. Mike Schreiner: Thank you for the opportunity. I was just going to say I can’t tell you how many First Nations I’ve met with who have reminded me over and over again that First Nations are not stakeholders. They’re not “other entities.” They’re actually other governments, and so I struggled with whether “Indigenous communities” was the right wording, but I was trying to come up with an encompassing way of expressing that we have other nations that have governing structures. Those Indigenous people are not “other entities” or “other stakeholders”; they are independent nations.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Is there any further debate? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote? All those in favour of independent motion number 10, please raise their hands. All those opposed, please raise their hands. I declare the motion lost.

Would anyone like to move any other motions? MPP Shaw?

Ms. Sandy Shaw: I move that motion number 2 be amended by adding “and supports” after “takes into consideration” in clause 1(1)(g) of the bill, as set out in the motion.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): On NDP motion number 2.1, committee members, the proposed amendment is out of order. Once a line of a clause has been amended by a committee, it cannot be further amended by a subsequent amendment, as a given line may be amended only once.

MPP Gélinas?

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M^me France Gélinas: You will be very surprised that I will ask for unanimous consent to be allowed to debate this motion.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Do we have unanimous consent to debate NDP motion 2.1? Any opposed? Seeing none, I declare it carried.

Is there any further debate on NDP motion number 2.1? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote? All those in favour, please raise their hands. All those opposed, please raise their hands. I declare the motion carried.

Is there any further debate on section 1, as amended? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote? All those in favour, please raise their hands. All those opposed, please raise their hands. I declare section 1, as amended, carried.

Turning now to government motion number 11, who would like to move this motion? MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: I move that subsection 2(1) of the bill be struck out and the following substituted:

“Report to assembly

“2(1) The Minister of Health shall prepare a report setting out the provincial framework on palliative care and shall lay the report before the assembly within one year after the day on which this act comes into force.”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Further debate? MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: The only change is that we took out “hospice.” I think it is wise of us to take out “hospice.” The new vocabulary used right now is “a framework on palliative care.” I love the hospices, but I’m okay with taking it out of this from everything we’ve learned from the presenters.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Is there any further debate? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote? All those in favour of government motion number 11, please raise their hands. All those opposed, please raise their hands. I declare government motion number 11 carried.

Shall section 2, as amended—is there any further debate? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote? Shall section 2, as amended, carry? All those in favour, please raise their hands. All those opposed, please raise their hands. I declare section 2, as amended, carried.

Turning now to section 3, government motion number 12, MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: I move that subsection 3(1) of the bill be struck out and the following substituted:

“Report re state of palliative care in Ontario

“3(1) Within three years after the day on which the report referred to in section 2 is tabled in the assembly, the Minister of Health shall prepare a report on the state of palliative care in Ontario and shall cause the report to be laid before the assembly on any of the first 15 days on which that assembly is sitting after the report is completed.”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Is there any further debate? MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: Let him go first.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Thank you very much, Chair. This is referring to what we heard throughout, both the feedback from presenters but also through conversations with colleagues on the committee with regard to a five-year time frame for a report, which, as was noted a number of times, is longer than even the length of a government in Ontario. Wanting to make sure that we had a reasonable time frame, this is, I think, a decent compromise.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Further debate? MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: I agree. Five years was too long. Correcting the name of the ministry—it’s not called the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care anymore; it’s just the Ministry of Health—and referring to palliative care—we all love hospices, but we’re talking about palliative care as a whole—I think it’s all going in the right direction.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Further debate? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote? All those in favour, please raise their hands. All those opposed, please raise their hands. I declare section 3, as amended, carried. MPP Schreiner, would you like to—oh, sorry. My apologies. I made a mistake here. I declare government amendment number 12 carried. We’re on 13.

Turning now to independent motion number 13. Who would like to move that motion? MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: Thank you, Chair. In the interest of time and the previous vote we just took, I will withdraw amendment 13.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Is there any further debate on section 3, as amended? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote? All those in favour of section 3, as amended, please raise your hands. All those opposed, please raise your hands. I declare section 3, as amended, carried.

MPP Schreiner?

Mr. Mike Schreiner: Yes. I probably need to—I seek unanimous consent to put forward the amended motion 1.

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Do we have unanimous consent from the committee? All those in favour, please raise your hands. Any opposed? Seeing none, we have unanimous consent. MPP Schreiner.

Mr. Mike Schreiner: Thank you, Chair. Thank you, members of the committee.

I move that section 0.1 be added to the bill:

“Purpose

“0.1 The purpose of this act is to develop a framework to ensure every Ontarian has access to quality palliative care.”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Is there any further debate? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote? All those in favour of—sorry. A legislative break.

This is the amendment put forward by MPP Schreiner. All those in favour, please raise your hands. All those opposed, please raise your hands. I declare the motion carried.

Is there any further debate on section 4? Shall section 4 carry? All those in favour, raise your hands. All those opposed, raise your hands. Seeing none, I declare section 4 carried.

Shall section 5 carry? Any debate? Seeing none, are members prepared to vote? All those in favour, raise your hands. All those opposed, raise your hands. I declare section 5 carried.

Turning now to the title. Shall the title of the bill carry? All those in—sorry. Turning now to government motion number 14. MPP Oosterhoff.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: Thank you, Chair. I move that the long title of the bill be amended by striking out “hospice.”

The Chair (Ms. Goldie Ghamari): Thank you. Is there any further debate? Are members prepared to vote? All those in favour, please raise your hands. All those opposed, please raise your hands. I declare government motion number 14 carried.

Shall the title of the bill, as amended, carry? All those in favour, please raise their hands. All those opposed, please raise their hands. The title of the bill is carried.

Shall Bill 3, as amended, carry? All those in favour, please raise their hands. All those opposed, please raise their hands. I declare Bill 3, as amended, carried.

Shall I report the bill, as amended, to the House? All those in favour, please raise their hands. All those opposed, please raise their hands. I declare the motion carried.

Thank you, everyone, for your assistance and your collaboration. There being no further business, this committee now stands adjourned until 9 a.m. on Friday, November 27, 2020.

The committee adjourned at 1021.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GENERAL GOVERNMENT

Chair / Présidente

Ms. Goldie Ghamari (Carleton PC)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Président

Mr. Mike Schreiner (Guelph G)

Mr. Robert Bailey (Sarnia–Lambton PC)

Ms. Jessica Bell (University–Rosedale ND)

Ms. Goldie Ghamari (Carleton PC)

Mr. Chris Glover (Spadina–Fort York ND)

Mr. Mike Harris (Kitchener–Conestoga PC)

Mr. Daryl Kramp (Hastings–Lennox and Addington PC)

Mr. Sheref Sabawy (Mississauga–Erin Mills PC)

Mr. Amarjot Sandhu (Brampton West / Brampton-Ouest PC)

Mr. Mike Schreiner (Guelph G)

Mrs. Jennifer (Jennie) Stevens (St. Catharines ND)

Mrs. Daisy Wai (Richmond Hill PC)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants

Ms. Amy Fee (Kitchener South–Hespeler / Kitchener-Sud–Hespeler PC)

M^me France Gélinas (Nickel Belt ND)

Ms. Natalia Kusendova (Mississauga Centre / Mississauga-Centre PC)

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff (Niagara West / Niagara-Ouest PC)

Ms. Sandy Shaw (Hamilton West–Ancaster–Dundas / Hamilton-Ouest–Ancaster–Dundas ND)

Also taking part / Autres participants et participantes

Mr. John Fraser (Ottawa South / Ottawa-Sud L)

Clerk / Greffier

Mr. Isaiah Thorning

Staff / Personnel

Mr. Bradley Warden, legislative counsel