CONTENTS
Wednesday 30 April 1997
Election of Chair
Election of Vice-Chair
Appointment of subcommittee
Briefing
STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE OMBUDSMAN
Chair / Président: Mr John O'Toole (Durham East / -Est PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Mr Trevor Pettit (Hamilton Mountain PC)
Mr DaveBoushy (Sarnia PC)
Mr PatHoy (Essex-Kent L)
Mr RonJohnson (Brantford PC)
Mr Jean-MarcLalonde (Prescott and Russell / Prescott et Russell L)
Mr Gary L. Leadston (Kitchener-Wilmot PC)
Mr RosarioMarchese (Fort York ND)
Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East PC)
Mr BillMurdoch (Grey-Owen Sound PC)
Mr John R. O'Toole (Durham East / -Est PC)
Mr Jerry J. Ouellette (Oshawa PC)
Mr John L. Parker (York East / -Est PC)
Mr RichardPatten (Ottawa Centre PC)
Mr TrevorPettit (Hamilton Mountain PC)
Mr LenWood (Cochrane North / -Nord ND)
*In attendance /présents
Substitutions present /Membres remplaçants présents:
Mrs BarbaraFisher (Bruce PC)
Mr W. LeoJordan (Lanark-Renfrew PC)
Mr R. GaryStewart (Peterborough PC)
Mr BillVankoughnet (Frontenac-Addington PC)
Clerk / Greffier: Mr Franco Carrozza
Staff / Personnel: Mr Philip Kaye, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1017 in room 151.
ELECTION OF CHAIR
Clerk of the Committee (Mr Franco Carrozza): Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I must inform you that there is a vacancy for the Chair of the committee. I will now open for nominations.
Mr Jerry J. Ouellette (Oshawa): I'd be proud to nominate the member for Durham East, Mr O'Toole.
Clerk of the Committee: Thank you. Any other nominations? There being no others, I shall now close the nominations and ask Mr O'Toole to take the Chair.
ELECTION OF VICE-CHAIR
The Chair (Mr John O'Toole): The first order of business is the election of a Vice-Chair of the committee. Are there any nominations?
Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough): It is my pleasure to nominate Mr Trevor Pettit to serve as Vice-Chair.
The Chair: The nomination of Mr Pettit is moved by Mr Stewart. Any other nominations?
Mr John L. Parker (York East): I can't think of anyone more suited than Mr Pettit.
Mr Trevor Pettit (Hamilton Mountain): Thank you, Mr Parker.
The Chair: Motion to close the nominations? Somebody to close the nominations? Closed. All those in support? That's agreed. Congratulations, Mr Pettit.
APPOINTMENT OF SUBCOMMITTEE
The Chair: I'm looking for a motion with respect to the establishment of the subcommittee on committee business.
Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Prescott and Russell): I nominate Pat Hoy.
Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): I move Rosario Marchese.
Mr Stewart: I move Mr O'Toole and Mr Parker.
Clerk of the Committee: Could someone read the motion into the record.
Mr Stewart: I will, Mr Chairman, if you wish.
I move that a subcommittee on committee business be appointed to meet from time to time at the call of the Chair, or at the request of any member thereof, to consider and report to the committee on the business of the committee; that the presence of all members of the subcommittee is necessary to constitute a meeting; that the subcommittee be composed of the following members: Mr O'Toole, Mr Parker, Mr Hoy, Mr Marchese; and that any member may designate a substitute member on the subcommittee who is of the same recognized party.
The Chair: All those in support? That's carried.
To depart from the prepared script here for a moment, I just want to briefly make my remarks and thank you very much for your support. I hope I'm up to the challenge first of being fair and reasonable, and second of being a man of few words. The second part will be a challenge for me as I am given to expressing my views. But I will try to be impartial, fair and a reasonable Chair.
Mr Parker: Mr Chairman, you were put up there to shut you up.
The Chair: I hope that wasn't the only motive; it was a sense of fairness, I think.
Having participated up to this point both as a sub on the Ombudsman committee and in the latter portion as a member of the committee, I would ask the clerk if he would indulge us by bringing us a little up to speed so we all know exactly where we are, without too much detail.
BRIEFING
Clerk of the Committee: I also am new to the committee, but I've been with this committee a number of times before. I think you will notice that I was the clerk of the very infamous report in 1993. My understanding is that you have reviewed the 1993 report, you have found a number of recommendations that you are willing to discuss and review, you have prepared yourself a working paper and in that process you have again invited a number of witnesses to give you their ideas and you have made some recommendations. You were also in the process of finalizing that report. You will have to decide if you wish to proceed with that report, either adopting it or whatever you wish.
Also to bring you up to date, there's another matter with the subcommittee that you must meet to discuss. It is a rather sensitive subject that I do not wish to discuss in open committee. Please think about the subcommittee meeting as soon as you can so you can bring yourselves abreast of that particular information and make a decision on it. Basically that is what I have to say. Perhaps we can call upon Mr Kaye if I've missed anything.
Mr Philip Kaye: Just in terms of the recent public hearings conducted by this committee, I prepared an interim summary of the recommendations made to the committee and then a final summary which was distributed, I believe, in March. It's dated March 19 and is entitled A Revised Summary of Recommendations: Re Submissions on the Ombudsman Committee Report "Review of the Office of the Ombudsman" and Related Working Paper. This summary is organized along the lines of the 1993 report in that it takes the 44 recommendations in that 1993 report and lists the comments made to this committee about those recommendations and the proposed revisions to those recommendations that the committee made in its working paper.
Members should also be aware that apart from the 44 formal recommendations made in the 1993 report there were two areas where the committee did reach conclusions but did not make a formal recommendation. Those two areas were the use of the term "Ombudsman" and the possible expansion of the Ombudsman's jurisdiction to include such areas as complaints against municipalities.
The Chair: That report we should all in the future have a copy of or access to. What's the date? March 19?
Mr Kaye: March 19. I don't think I have a copy. Everyone will be provided a copy of that.
The Chair: Are there any questions or comments with respect to what the researcher and the clerk have provided the committee? There being none, I would ask if the Vice-Chair wanted to make any remarks to acknowledge his achievement in this world.
Mr Pettit: Thank you, Mr Chair. I'm honoured to serve as the Vice-Chair of this committee, and although I didn't serve on it before, I was on other committees. As you do, I look forward to a quick learn and getting on with the business. I would ask that any previous reports or anything you have be forwarded to all the members, especially the new members on this particular committee.
Thank you very much. I look forward to working with all of you.
The Chair: Are there any other members of the committee who have any comments at this inaugural meeting?
Mr Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre): Mr Chair, congratulations, first of all.
In light of the report from legislative research, can the recommendations that were not addressed be brought forward as well? That will be part of the whole report to discuss, I presume. But I think we should review the name, which is a very awkward name, and I know there are all kinds of suggestions. I don't want to get into the substance of it, but "Ombudsperson" is a pretty awkward title, and you get into translations and this sort of thing. That might be one focus that would be of interest to the committee and I think probably to the general public.
The Chair: I'm not completely, in detail, familiar with the report but I would ask the researcher: Is that part of the recommendations in the context of that report?
Mr Kaye: It's not a formal recommendation in the report but there is a conclusion in the report.
The Chair: That's what I thought. There was some mention of it.
Mr Kaye: To the extent that this committee decides to report on the 1993 report, then it is an issue this committee can choose to address.
The Chair: Any other comments? No comments. That's fine.
I agree. I think the subcommittee should meet as soon as possible, as the clerk has recommended. In the open session of the meeting is it important to deal with that so everyone knows where we're moving forward. I'd like to meet in May, that would be my idea, and as soon as possible. Is there any preference for a date, or do I just have my office get in touch with you?
Clerk of the Committee: I will do that.
The Chair: The clerk will line up a date in May.
Mr Pat Hoy (Essex-Kent): The subcommittee meeting.
The Chair: The subcommittee meeting is what I'm referring to. We'll do that and we'll keep other members informed as well. I don't have any other comments, so I gather we need a motion to adjourn.
Mr Pettit: So moved that we adjourn.
The Chair: Moved by Mr Pettit, and this meeting is adjourned.
The committee adjourned at 1027.