The committee met at 1303 in committee room 1.

Committee business

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Good afternoon. The Standing Committee on the Legislative Assembly will now come to order.

Our first item on the agenda is committee business regarding the invitation we received to attend the National Conference of State Legislatures 2019 national summit in Nashville, Tennessee. I will ask the Clerk to go over what the committee needs to do if they wish to attend. Go ahead.

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): Thank you, Chair. This committee, the Standing Committee on—

Mr. Lorne Coe: Could you get your microphone closer to you, please?

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): Sure.

The Standing Committee on the Legislative Assembly has been invited by the National Conference of State Legislatures, or NCSL, to this conference. The committee has attended for the last number of years.

The committee would need two things to do in order to attend this conference. First is to pass a motion for the Chair to write to the House leaders, requesting that a motion be presented to the House to authorize this committee to travel.

The second is to approve a budget for the Board of Internal Economy to look at. I should note that this budget is not to ask for extra money or additional funds; this is for approval that the committee is going to spend money it already has to attend this conference. Our office would prepare that budget at a later date.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Does anyone have any comments? MPP Harris.

Mr. Mike Harris: Oh, no, I just—continue on.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Okay. Does anybody—yes, go ahead, MPP Berns-McGown. I feel terrible that I was saying it wrong; sorry about that.

Ms. Rima Berns-McGown: Just a question: How many years has the committee attended the conference? Do you know?

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): I’ll have to double-check, but it’s at least the past 10-or-so years, if that’s—

Ms. Rima Berns-McGown: Okay, a significant history.

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): Yes. Last year, because it was an election year, there was no committee at that time. So, last year, the committee did not attend by virtue that we didn’t have a committee when the invitation was out, but previous to that, many years.

Ms. Rima Berns-McGown: Thank you.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): And the Clerk was just saying, just so I can add to that for you, that there were times when it was just the Chair and one or two others who went. It’s up to the House leaders—if this motion gets passed today—whatever you people decide to make that decision on everybody or not-anybody or whatever.

MPP Bailey?

Mr. Robert Bailey: Yes, Madam Chair. I would like to speak to that. I’ve been on this committee a number of times, I guess for quite a while now, and it’s a good learning experience. You meet with all the other state legislators; it’s a great opportunity. They have a number of presentations and great speakers. It’s a great opportunity to interact with other legislators from around the northeast. Other Canadian Legislatures are there as well. I would certainly support, in my opinion, the worthwhile nature of it. We’ve hosted them here in Canada from time to time, too. It’s kind of a reciprocal thing.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Any further suggestions or comments? Do you want to pass a motion here today, or another day, or take it to subcommittee? What would everybody like to do? MPP Harris?

Mr. Mike Harris: I’m happy to move a motion stating that the Chair write to the House leaders’ offices to request that a motion be presented to the House to authorize the permanent members of the Standing Committee on the Legislative Assembly and staff to attend the 2019 legislative summit of the National Conference of State Legislatures in Nashville, Tennessee, from August 4 to 6, 2019.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): It’s August 4 to 8, just to correct that.

Mr. Mike Harris: That’s exactly what I meant, Madam Chair.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): MPP Harris has made the motion. Is there any discussion? Are members ready to vote?

All in favour of the motion? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

I suggest that the subcommittee can look at the budget for this first, which would then have them go to the full committee for approval. Agree? That’s agreed.

Television broadcast system

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Next in line is the television broadcast system. Next on the agenda, we have the updated television guidelines before us.

Does the committee want to discuss further or proceed with adopting the guidelines? Just so we’re clear—we got confused last time—we’re talking about the guidelines right now, not the recommendations, so we’re all looking at the same thing—the guidelines.

Yes, MPP Coe?

Mr. Lorne Coe: Thank you, Madam Chair. It’s an all-encompassing motion on a couple of sections. I have a copy of it here for the Clerk, but I’m going to read it into the record to begin. I’ll probably need my glasses for that.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Okay.

Mr. Mike Harris: Your arms aren’t long enough to hold it that far away.

Mr. Lorne Coe: I move that in paragraph 3, the words “committee Chairs” are struck out and the words “House leaders” substituted; and

In paragraph 9, everything after “and” is struck out and the words “cameras are not to record shots of public interruptions or public demonstrations” substituted; and

That in paragraph 12, the word “recognized” be added before the words “political affiliation”.

I’ll bring forward these amendments to the Clerk now by hand.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): We’re going to recess just so we can all get a copy of this, if everyone’s okay with that.

The committee recessed from 1309 to 1335.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): We’re going to resume. MPP Coe?

Mr. Lorne Coe: Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m going to withdraw my original motion and replace it with the following. Everyone has copies, I believe, in front of them. They’re being distributed now. I’ll wait until that’s completed.

I move that in paragraph 3, the words “committee Chairs” are struck out and the words “House leaders” substituted; and

In paragraph 9, everything after “and” is struck out and the words “cameras are not to record shots of public interruptions or public demonstrations” substituted; and

That paragraph 12 be amended to include the phrase “of a recognized party” after the word “member”; and

That, after the word “speaking,” the following clause be added: “and, that for any member not of a recognized party, the member shall be recognized as an independent member, and only the name and constituency shall be shown”.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Any further discussion? MPP Berns-McGown.

Ms. Rima Berns-McGown: A couple of things: My understanding was that the guidelines, as they had been revised, were revised because they were outdated. Because the 1986 guidelines were outdated, they were being revised simply to bring them into line with current practice. These amendments actually seek to change practice and to have that altered, which is a whole different kettle of fish. Among other issues, my understanding is that there is a Speaker’s ruling that was made in 2003, where the Speaker specifically ruled that members even of parties that are not officially recognized could have their party affiliation on the television broadcast. Because that’s our understanding, we’d need time to go back and do some research and just sort out what’s what.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): MPP Singh.

Mr. Gurratan Singh: Yes, a lot of new information has been proposed. I think it might require, in order to do our due diligence and to understand the impact of these proposed amendments, that some time be given to allow us to review that and then come back accordingly with more substance to discuss.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Further discussion? Are you suggesting that we defer?

Mr. Gurratan Singh: I’m suggesting that we maybe take some time so we can review this and understand the full impact of these amendments and, as my colleague had mentioned, if there are any other competing rulings that have already been made that could have impact on this. So that way, when we have this discussion, it can be in a much more fulsome manner.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Further discussion? Do we agree to defer consideration of the motion? MPP Harris.

Mr. Mike Harris: Madam Chair, the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario is an agent of the House, in which case, if the committee decides that this is the way that the Legislative Assembly is going to proceed, the Speaker will then need to follow those guidelines, regardless of him and/or her being the Speaker. That’s my understanding, regardless of whether there is a notice or a motion that MPP Berns-McGown is speaking of.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Okay. So it’s up to the committee, then, how to handle—if you want to agree to defer it or not. There could be a motion to defer.

MPP Singh?

Mr. Gurratan Singh: Just to follow up on the points—just to respond back to MPP Harris: I think, even in your response, we can all agree that we don’t have the full picture. That’s our understanding right now. A deferral would allow us all to check this out to ensure that there’s no other impact that could result from these amendments. It just allows us to do our due diligence.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): We just need to know if the committee agrees. If not, we’ll have to look for a motion to defer it.

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Mr. Mike Harris: We won’t be deferring, Madam Chair.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): So would you like to put a motion forward?

Mr. Gurratan Singh: Yes, I think we should put a motion forward to allow us to effectively review—

Interjection.

Mr. Gurratan Singh: I move to defer voting on this specific amendment until a later date, to allow us to further understand the impact—I guess I’m getting some assistance here.

Interjection.

Mr. Gurratan Singh: I move to defer consideration of this amendment to a later date.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Mr. Singh has brought the motion forward.

MPP Coe—

Interjection.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): There’s no debate on that. Shall the motion carry? All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is lost.

We’ll go back to MPP Coe’s motion. MPP Coe, go ahead.

Mr. Lorne Coe: Well, indeed, the motion before the committee, Madam Chair—1 through to 3, as I read it, are the prevailing practice in terms of the House leaders’ decision-making process. They meet every Thursday. As the chief government whip, I’m part of that meeting. This is part of an ongoing decision process that is in practice at the present time.

In terms of paragraph 9, and the addition of the wording that has been suggested before the committee, this is consistent as recent as the Speaker’s direction after question period today, very clearly. These words were, almost word for word, what he had to say, so there’s no inconsistency with that.

Furthermore, dealing with paragraph 12 as amended to include the phrase “of a recognized party” after the word “member,” hearken back, members, to our discussion of independents and the discussion of what constitutes a member of the independents. Again, this is consistent with the prevailing practice in the Legislature.

So there’s nothing outside of what’s in front of you here today that is inconsistent with what are the standards at the present time. It’s just a matter of bringing these particular guidelines that we’re looking at—and to the point that one of the members made earlier, this is a document that was first constructed, I think, in 1986 or 1984.

Going forward, and with that particular background, Madam Chair, I’d ask you to call the question, please.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Further debate? MPP Berns-McGown.

Ms. Rima Berns-McGown: I just would like to point out that when the Speaker was talking about cameras today in the House, he was talking about members’ cameras. He wasn’t talking about the broadcast camera.

The issue is that if the broadcast camera—the guidelines, as they are at the moment, state that the broadcast cameras shall not purposefully record demonstrations, which is a very different thing from saying that if the demonstration happens to come into the lens of the broadcast camera because of the shot that it has of the speaker, it should turn itself into twists or turn off, so as not to record it. It’s a very different intention.

The other thing is that we have now the ruling of Speaker Curling from November 27, 2003, which states, among other things: “Further, since party identification is permissible in certain assembly print and electronic publications, such as Hansard and Ont.Parl, they can be referred to as the New Democratic Party in those publications, in accordance with usual practice and policy.” That was referring to broadcast.

My understanding is, in fact, that it’s the Speaker who makes these decisions and not committees, just to be aware that that’s—

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): MPP Harris.

Mr. Mike Harris: Just to close off debate here, I think the ruling or statutes that you’re referring to are outdated, given that I believe the standing orders have been updated since that ruling has been put out. What we’re putting forward will reflect, as MPP Coe stated, the current way that things are being done in the Legislature.

That will close debate from the government side, Madam Chair.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Further debate? Are the members ready to vote? Shall the motion—

Interjection.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Are the members ready to vote? Further debate? Sorry. MPP Singh.

Mr. Gurratan Singh: As we stated in the motion that I put forward, just to articulate that point further, there’s a lot being put out there and there is some past history to that, so there is a feeling that without that full spectrum of information, it does limit our ability to really understand the impact of everything being put forward. I just wanted to articulate that a further time, because that could have an impact that we don’t really understand upon other standing orders and upon further guidelines that exist.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Okay. Are the members ready to vote?

Interjection.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Oh, sorry. I didn’t see you. MPP Berns-McGown.

Ms. Rima Berns-McGown: I just also would like to correct the member: This has nothing to do with the standing orders. Let me read a little bit more of the ruling.

Speaker Curling wrote: “Having said this, I note that Speaker Parent of the Canadian House of Commons, in his June 16, 1994 ruling, accommodated those members who were not affiliated with a recognized party by allowing the members of one particular group to be seated near each other and to be identified by the group’s traditional name, by allowing the members of another political group to be seated near each other and to be identified by their group’s traditional name, and by then assigning other independent members the remaining seats according to their seniority.

“In keeping with the thrust of that ruling, I too am able to make some accommodation and so I’m ruling that, in this chamber, the member for Niagara Centre and the other six members not affiliated with a recognized party may collectively be referred to as the third party. Further, since party identification is permissible in certain assembly print and electronic publications, such as Hansard and Ont.Parl, they can be referred to as the New Democratic Party in those publications, in accordance with usual practice and policy.”

My point is that it isn’t a question of the standing orders; it’s something completely separate.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Further debate? Are members ready to vote? Okay. Shall the motion carry? I heard a no. All those in favour, please raise your hand. All those opposed, raise your hand. Motion carried.

The guidelines have carried, so we have to do a report to the House. Are the members ready to adopt the guidelines, as amended? Okay.

We have a series of questions here.

Shall the report of the updated television guidelines, as amended, be adopted? I heard a no.

Ms. Rima Berns-McGown: We want a recorded vote.

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Ayes

Bailey, Coe, Harris, Kanapathi, Pang, Thanigasalam.

Nays

Berns-McGown, Hassan, Gurratan Singh.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Carried.

Who shall sign off on the final copy of the draft? The Chair of the subcommittee—the Clerk is going to explain.

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): Because there are certain changes to the guidelines—so, before reporting to the House, someone just has to approve that the changes made are reflected correctly. There can be a sign-off by the Chair or by the subcommittee.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): MPP Harris?

Mr. Mike Harris: Who would traditionally do that, Madam Clerk?

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): Committees have done either the Chair or the subcommittee. Basically, they’ll see the guidelines with the changes and approve if the changes are reflected correctly of what happened in them.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): MPP Harris?

Mr. Mike Harris: Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that the Chair signs off on the guidelines.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Is this agreed? That’s carried—the Chair.

The next is: Shall the report be translated? Agreed? Agreed.

Shall the report be printed? Agreed.

Shall I present the report to the House and move its adoption? Agreed.

The next item is the recommendations on how to improve the television broadcast system. We have the list and then the cost that’s attached to it. Does the committee want a discussion on the list or the costs that are attached? MPP Berns-McGown?

Ms. Rima Berns-McGown: I would propose that it makes a lot of sense for the Board of Internal Economy to have a recommendation to consider these recommendations, because they would improve the broadcasting into the House of the House proceedings. They would increase transparency and they would give Ontarians and the public a better view of what their legislators are doing.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Further discussion? MPP Harris.

Mr. Mike Harris: I just had a couple of quick questions, and I’m not sure if it’s something we can put together in a timely manner or not. But as far as section 4 goes, talking about televising travelling committee meetings, I’m just curious if Mr. Donofrio might be able to get us an estimate on what it would cost to stream these meetings rather than actually have them televised—if there would be a significant cost savings there or not. That’s really my only question going forward from this point.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Further discussion? MPP Singh.

Mr. Gurratan Singh: My understanding is that these committees are already streamed, and the addition is to ensure that they’re televised to provide further transparency so people from across Ontario can then view these committees. From the north and from further away from Queen’s Park, it allows for a greater transparency, it allows greater access to democracy, and something that ultimately strengthens people’s understanding of how Queen’s Park works.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Go ahead, MPP Harris.

Mr. Mike Harris: MPP Singh, are you 100% positive of that? I don’t want to create any undue work, so if you’re already 100% positive that they are already streaming—but if you’re not 100%, then I would prefer if we clarify that.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): We’ll just let the Clerk clarify that.

Mr. Mike Harris: Okay, that would be good.

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): A number of committees have travelled and, by agreement, have had streaming. The Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs: When it travelled in the winter, those meetings were streamed.

Mr. Mike Harris: Do they always do that, or is it just in certain circumstances?

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): I know typically it has been, if the committee agrees to do that, they’ve been able to do it, if possible, in their locations—

Mr. Mike Harris: But they don’t do it in all cases, though?

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): The past few, but I think not yet, so we can still look at a costing on that, if the committee wants.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Does the committee want to look at a costing? MPP Singh.

Mr. Gurratan Singh: From what the Clerk has informed us about, it looks as if there is discretion already to allow for committees to be streamed. I think that the crux of what’s being discussed right now is to ensure that, beyond streaming, there’s also a televised viewing that’s available for these committee hearings. I think the issue of streaming seems to be addressed. The Clerk can provide further clarification on that point, but I feel like there’s a protocol in place for streaming, as it stands. But I defer to the Clerk to provide further clarification on if that is the case or not. If there’s something already in place and there’s already a protocol in place, then it’s something that potentially may not require further investigation.

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): I believe that, for the most part, when a committee wants the travel to be streamed, it has been possible. It depends on the location as well. For the most part, we’ve seen a lot of streaming happen already.

Ms. Jane McKenna: Further discussion? MPP Hassan.

Mr. Faisal Hassan: If that is the case, and we know that it has happened, depending on the areas where there’s no Internet—and I think that’s why we have the opportunity today to make sure that for those areas that don’t have Internet we make efforts to strengthen and make sure that those communities also have streaming enabled, to view what’s happening at the Legislature.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): MPP Coe.

Mr. Lorne Coe: In one of the earlier meetings we had, we put a question to the director of the broadcast and recording service. I looked back and looked at the question and then I looked at the response. The question spoke about what we have before us and options in the new spending—money over and above the core budget. The question talked about whether the core budget was sufficient in itself. What he said was, “The status quo, what we are currently doing, what we are currently providing—we’re good. We do a very good job with what we have.”

On that basis, we won’t be supporting any additional spending beyond the core budget. That’s all we’ve been allocating to him. What’s before us is over and above what the core budget is, as we understood it, from the deputations that we had earlier. The position of the government will be that we won’t be supporting any new spending on this, or additions to the budget.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Further discussion?

Mr. Faisal Hassan: My understanding is that, when we had asked about how we make it more accessible to the voters and the residents of Ontario to view and see what’s happening at the Legislature, in committee rooms, that capacity wasn’t there. That’s the reason we have asked to expand it and make sure that those who are not able to have televisions, in this case—many people don’t have televisions, as you know. Internet and streaming and other options are the way to go to advance the work that we’re doing at the Legislature. To that end, I think it’s very important.

We have asked the director. He has provided a proposal, which is very important for democracy, which is very important in enhancing the work we do here at the Legislature so that our voters and our residents in our constituencies can tune into streaming and other options and are able to access what we do here. That is also strengthening the work we do.

I think it is important that we consider the importance of people seeing what’s happening here directly—live or recorded—so that they are aware of what we are doing on their behalf. For that, I think it’s very important that we look at the greater advantage and benefit for the people of Ontario. I think it’s very important that we reconsider and that the government also see the importance of not limiting or creating barriers where people who have no access at the moment can actually have that. I think it is very important that we support this.

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The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): MPP Singh.

Mr. Gurratan Singh: Yes. Just earlier today during question period, PC MPP Bill Walker made mention of the fact that we need to take the services that Ontario has into the 21st century with respect to ServiceOntario. There’s a lot of discussion about moving our forms of communication and our forms of overall infrastructure and modernizing it. We know that it has been a long time since these broadcasting technologies—the system we have right now has not been updated in quite a long time. So I would say that there’s a bit of a contradiction here where, on the one side, the government is saying that we need to bring ourselves forward to the 21st century with respect to ServiceOntario, but it’s not able to provide that same standard towards our work in broadcasting. I would encourage the government to agree with these recommendations and put them forward to the Board of Internal Economy.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): MPP Berns-McGown.

Ms. Rima Berns-McGown: I also remember distinctly the answer that the director gave when asked about the broadcast services, but it’s important to understand that the director was talking about the quality of broadcast services as they exist at the moment with regard to proceedings in the House. The director was not commenting on the overall transparency and ability of broadcast services to broadcast things we don’t have cameras for. He was not saying that we do a good job overall; he was saying that, of what we do, we do a good job. But we could do a better job, because we could be televising and broadcasting committee hearings when they travel and we could be doing a better job in all the other areas where they’ve asked for additional resources.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): MPP Harris.

Mr. Mike Harris: Just to quickly recap this from the government side and close off debate from the government side, we’re already proceeding with modernizing with the new applications. We’ve now heard from the Clerk and MPP Singh that we’re already taking steps to modernize by streaming travelling committee meetings. At this point, the government side is not prepared to support the current budget as it sits. That closes off debate from the government side, Madam Speaker. I believe, if we need to have a vote on that, we’re prepared to do that at this time.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): MPP Hassan?

Mr. Faisal Hassan: Further discussion, yes. I think, since the government leader said this morning that we are going to prepare ourselves for the 21st century for the government’s ServiceOntario services, this is also a similar point because it’s important that people view it and know exactly what’s happening here. I think it is part of the job of the government to enhance that democracy, to enhance that so that people in northern Ontario, southern Ontario, western Ontario and eastern Ontario who do not have televisions but have access to streaming and Internet, have access to see and view first-hand what’s happening in the Legislature and in committees. I think that’s a very important part of the government to do that. I think it is important that the government look into this and make sure that this is supported, because it’s important for the people of Ontario that they view what the government is doing and that they know what’s happening here. To do that and to make it accessible is to support this new proposal, which will do just that.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Just so we’re clear, we can leave it here. We don’t have to vote it down. What would everyone like to do? Would you like to leave it here?

Mr. Mike Harris: We can certainly leave it here at this point, Madam Speaker. But at this point, the government is not prepared to move forward with these recommendations.

Interjection.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Do you want to vote on leaving it here? Or do we just have an agreement just to leave it for right now? Do we have an agreement—

Mr. Mike Harris: For the sake of expediency, whatever is going to move us forward faster at this point.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Okay. Do we agree that we’re just going to leave it here right now?

Mr. Mike Harris: Sure.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): Okay, we’ll revisit it later. So we’ll move on.

Mr. Mike Harris: Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair (Ms. Jane McKenna): We’re going to recess for five minutes and then go into closed session.

The committee recessed at 1405 and later continued in closed session.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Chair / Présidente

Ms. Jane McKenna (Burlington PC)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Président

Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam (Scarborough–Rouge Park PC)

Mr. Robert Bailey (Sarnia–Lambton PC)

Ms. Rima Berns-McGown (Beaches–East York ND)

Mr. Lorne Coe (Whitby PC)

Mr. Michael Coteau (Don Valley East / Don Valley-Est L)

Mr. Mike Harris (Kitchener–Conestoga PC)

Mr. Faisal Hassan (York South–Weston / York-Sud–Weston ND)

Ms. Jane McKenna (Burlington PC)

Miss Christina Maria Mitas (Scarborough Centre / Scarborough-Centre PC)

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff (Niagara West / Niagara-Ouest PC)

Mr. Gurratan Singh (Brampton East / Brampton-Est ND)

Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam (Scarborough–Rouge Park PC)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants

Mr. Logan Kanapathi (Markham–Thornhill PC)

Mr. Billy Pang (Markham–Unionville PC)

Clerk / Greffière

Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim

Staff / Personnel

Ms. Joanne McNair, Table Research Clerk,
Table Research