Assemblée législative de l'Ontario

The committee met at 1400 in committee room 2.

Subcommittee report

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Good afternoon, members of the committee on general government. It’s great to see you this afternoon.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: It’s good to see you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Thank you very much.

I’ll call the committee to order. This afternoon we are here to review and, hopefully, agree to the report of the subcommittee. We had the privilege of meeting last Friday by teleconference and came up with some direction on how to proceed with the public hearings. It will be up north in Kenora and, after that, Moose Factory or Moosonee.

Do I have someone who would be interested in reading the subcommittee report into the record? Mr. Fedeli.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Standing Committee on General Government.

Subcommittee on committee business.

Report of the subcommittee.

Friday, September 29, 2017.

Your subcommittee on committee business met on Friday, September 29, 2017, to consider the method of proceeding on Bill 152, An Act to amend the Representation Act, 2015 and certain other Acts, and recommends the following:

(1) That the committee hold public hearings on Bill 152 on Wednesday, October 11, 2017, and Thursday, October 12, 2017, in Kenora and Moose Factory or Moosonee, as per the order of the House dated Thursday, September 28, 2017.

(2) That the Clerk of the Committee, with the authorization of the Chair, post information regarding the committee’s business with respect to Bill 152 on the Ontario parliamentary channel, the Legislative Assembly website and Canada NewsWire; and, if possible, in the Wawatay News and Turtle Island News newspapers, as per the order of the House dated Thursday, September 28, 2017.

(3) That the Clerk of the Committee, with the authorization of the Chair, post information regarding the committee’s business with respect to Bill 152 on Wawatay Radio.

(4) That interested people who wish to be considered to appear before the committee on Bill 152, contact the committee Clerk by 12 noon on Friday, October 6, 2017, and that the committee be authorized to consider and schedule requests received after the deadline, as per the order of the House dated Thursday, September 28, 2017.

(5) That witnesses be scheduled on a first-come, first-served basis, as per the order of the House dated Thursday, September 28, 2017.

(6) That, on each day of public hearings, the start time for the committee hearings be determined by the committee Clerk in consultation with the committee Chair.

(7) That groups and individuals be offered 30 minutes for their presentations, which time is to include questions by committee members.

(8) That the committee Clerk provide the subcommittee with an interim list of scheduled presenters at 12 noon on Wednesday, October 4, 2017; and a final list by 1 p.m. on Friday, October 6, 2017.

(9) That a minimum of one hour’s worth of scheduled presentations in a location be required to warrant the committee’s travel to that location.

(10) That one staff person from each recognized party be authorized to travel with the committee.

(11) That the deadline for written submissions be 6 p.m. on Thursday, October 12, 2017, as per the order of the House dated Thursday, September 28, 2017.

(12) That the research officer provide the committee with a summary of witness presentations by 12 noon on Monday, October 6, 2017.

(13) That amendments to the bill be filed with the Clerk of the Committee by 12 noon on Friday, October 13, 2017, and that the committee be authorized to consider late amendments, as per the order of the House dated Thursday, September 28, 2017.

(14) That the committee meet in Toronto, on Monday, October 16, 2017, and on Wednesday, October 18, 2017, during its regular meeting time, for clause-by-clause consideration of the bill, as per the order of the House dated Thursday, September 28, 2017.

(15) That the committee Clerk, in consultation with the Chair, be authorized to commence making any preliminary arrangements necessary to facilitate the committee’s proceedings prior to the adoption of this report.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Just for clarification purposes, on item number (12): Mr. Fedeli, I believe you said October 6; it’s in fact October 16. I just want to clear that up.

Any discussion on the report of the subcommittee? Mr. Rinaldi.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: I would offer an amendment following number (7), and I’ll pass this around.

Chair, maybe I’ll just read this into the record.

I move that we add the following to the end of item number (7) of the report:

“In the event of oversubscription, the Clerk, in consultation with the committee Chair, may reduce the time allotted for presenters; however, the time shall not be shorter than five minutes for a presentation, followed by nine minutes of questions by committee members per presenter.”

Chair, basically, all we’re saying is, leave the status quo, and if we get a larger number then shrink that 30 minutes into what I’m proposing.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Mr. Fedeli.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: That aligns pretty much with our discussion on the phone. We said, if there are a few more, it should be up to the discretion of the Clerk. This amendment achieves the same goal.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Mr. Bisson.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Not quite. What I am concerned about: There are a number of people who will be coming from afar to do this presentation—Grand Chief Fiddler, I understand, and Grand Chief Solomon, and there a few others. I don’t know if they registered yet, but I know that they are interested. If, all of a sudden, we end up with an oversubscription and you give the Grand Chief five minutes, I think he will be somewhat perturbed. That’s why I was trying to leave it the way it was on Friday. The idea was that we take the subscriptions, the Clerk fills it to the best of her capability based on the numbers, and we allow that flexibility with the Clerk—that if it’s a Grand Chief, you give him 20 minutes; maybe the other person you give five minutes or whatever. We would come to that decision once we know who has applied.

So I’m a little bit leery to accept something that leaves it at five minutes because we could end up—I very much doubt it—in a situation where, all of a sudden, the Grand Chief shows up and it’s like, “I get five minutes? Really? Wow.”

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Mr. Rinaldi.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: I appreciate what Mr. Bisson is saying. I think if they know what the rules of engagement are beforehand, it’s no surprise. We want to be fair to anybody who wants to speak.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Mr. Fedeli.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: When you go down to number (8)—we’re going to know in a day or two. We can make a final judgment then. We’re going to know on Wednesday if we’ve got a whole bunch of people or not, so we should be flexible and go from there. If we need to meet and change, we can do that.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: But let’s be clear, if we get other people registering Tuesday next week, we’re not going to say no to them either. That was the conversation that we had.

Help me out here, Clerk or Chair: My understanding of what we had on Friday was that we were going to get a list done before we leave here on Thursday so that we have a sense of where we’re at, but we were not closing the list in the event that somebody who registers on Tuesday or Wednesday or shows up—we accommodate them as best as we can. We obviously would take those people who registered first—appropriately, if it’s a Grand Chief or something like that, a little bit more time—and fit whoever we can at the end. And if we run out of time, we run out of time, I guess.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Mr. Rinaldi.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: I’d be comfortable if Mr. Bisson—instead of five minutes, would 10 minutes help you? I’d just rather see something structured than willy-nilly, frankly, because then it’s going to be hard to decide on who, what, where. So I’d be happy—

Interjection.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Well, I guess you just can’t say anything anymore down here.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: No, Lou, I’m not taking—

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: I’m trying to accommodate you and trying to bring some kind of structure.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Lou, don’t take offence. This is not directed at you, okay? It’s a problem we have with our institutions when it comes to dealing with First Nations. They operate very differently than we do, and that’s why—

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: I have a First Nation community, so—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Yes, and they operate very differently than we do, and I think we need to respect that.

1410

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Okay, let’s stay focused on the amendment here. Is there any further discussion on the amendment?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I would ask that we vote against it, if we’re going to do that.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Okay. Any further discussion? Mr. Rinaldi.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Chair, I’m prepared to amend the amendment to 10 minutes. I’d just like to see some structure.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Mr. Bisson.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Can I suggest that at least you do this? Put in a 30-minute time slot for the Grand Chief or somebody of importance, 10 minutes for somebody else. You can do that if you want, but allow the committee the discretion to change that time, should we not be fully subscribed.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Mr. Bisson, I take it, is proposing that not all presenters will be under the same direction and that special accommodation of a longer period of time would be made to the Grand Chiefs. If you’re proposing that, to amend the amendment—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I would move the following—I would move it as a friendly amendment: “That a 30-minute slot be accorded to organizations or chiefs, and for individuals, that there be a 15-minute slot,” let’s say, “that includes questions and comments, divided equally amongst the parties.” But should the committee not be oversubscribed, the Chair has the discretion to say, “Oh, you have something interesting to say? We’ll give you 25 minutes.”

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Thank you. Mr. Rinaldi.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: But Gilles, I’m not touching number (7). So if the time allots, the 30 minutes is there. All I’m saying is, if we have an abundance of subscribers, shrink it down. So if only two people show up, 30 minutes is still on. That’s not changing.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Yes, and I guess what I’m trying to warn you of, just so that we don’t all get ourselves embarrassed up there—if only three people show up and it’s the Grand Chief, the Grand Chief and the chief and we say, “Sorry, 30 minutes. You’re done,” that’s not going to go over very well.

I’m just trying to not put us in a box.

Mr. John Fraser: So you think about 30 minutes each?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Yes. If the Grand Chief wants to talk for a little bit longer, I think you’ve got to give them some flexibility. That’s all I’m trying to say.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Okay, but the original report says that it’s 30 minutes for their presentation. The amendment that Mr. Rinaldi is—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Well, amend it to 15 minutes for individuals.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): That’s if you’re fully subscribed?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Yes. If you’re fully subscribed, 15 minutes for individuals. That includes questions and comments.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Again, Mr. Bisson, I’m just looking for clarification.

For the terms for Grand Chiefs, he’s asking for a guaranteed 30 minutes, if that’s what I understand.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Yes. For an organization like a PTO, like Mushkegowuk or Nishnawbe Aski Nation, Moose Cree First Nation—when some organization comes to committee, we normally give them longer. So 30 minutes per organization such as that and 15 for individuals, including questions and comments—but we allow ourselves to have the flexibility, should we be undersubscribed, to go longer if we so choose.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Thank you. Mr. Rinaldi.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Chair, I think nobody is disagreeing here. I think, Mr. Bisson, if you could give us something in writing, to be specific—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I just did.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Well, no, you kept on saying, “Maybe if so-and-so shows up. Maybe if so-and-so shows up.” I think we need to be somewhat structured and leave some flexibility, which we have. If you can provide some—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I thought I was. Let me try it again. I would like to make a friendly amendment, that an organization has a 30-minute time slot and individuals have 15-minute time slots, including questions and comments. Should they be undersubscribed, the committee has the right to do whatever it thinks is right when it comes to a particular presenter.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Mr. Rinaldi.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: The part that I’m struggling with, as he’s trying to clarify, is “some organization.” I don’t know what “some organization” is, and I want to be fair.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Mushkegowuk tribal council is an organization, Nishnawbe Aski is an organization. It might be that Attawapiskat First Nation is coming. There may be Constance Lake First Nation. I can’t list them all; I don’t know who they’ll be.

I don’t think we’ll oversubscribe, but an organization is like a municipality or a reserve—an organization of some type.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Okay, we’ll just take a brief little pause here as the Clerk consults with Mr. Bisson.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Perfect.

Interjections.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Okay, the committee will be recessing, with your approval, for about two to three minutes—perhaps five—as the Clerk drafts up the amendment to the amendment. Is that fair?

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Sure.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Okay. We are recessed for a few minutes.

The committee recessed from 1416 to 1426.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Okay, the recess is over. Thank you, everyone. I believe we have an amendment to the amendment. Mr. Bisson?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I move that Mr. Rinaldi’s amendment be amended by adding the word “individual” before “presenters”; and that the words after “shorter than” be struck out and replaced with “15 minutes per presentation.”

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Further discussion on the amendment? There being none, I shall—

Mr. Yvan Baker: Can I just—

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Mr. Baker.

Mr. Yvan Baker: I just want to make sure I understand the text of the motion, the second amendment. If I read that from the word “however”: “However, the time shall not be 15 minutes per presentation.” It shall not be 15 minutes per presentation?

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): The minimum amount of time would be five minutes for a presentation, followed by nine: three, three and three. That’s the way I generally do it.

Mr. Yvan Baker: No, no, that’s fair. I’m just trying to make sure the text reflects what we’re talking about.

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Sylwia Przezdziecki): “Shall not be shorter than 15 minutes per presentation.”

Mr. Yvan Baker: Oh, because it says, “‘shorter than’ be struck out”—all the words after “shorter than.” Got it.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Okay. Further discussion? There being none, I shall call for the vote. Those in favour of the amendment to the amendment? Okay. Those opposed? I declare the amendment to the amendment carried.

Let’s move back to the original amendment. Mr. Rinaldi has read into the record a proposed amendment which has subsequently been amended. Shall the motion, which has been amended—well, we should have further discussion on that first. Any discussion? There being none, I shall call for the vote. Those in favour of the amended motion carrying? Those opposed? I declare the amended amendment carried.

Mr. John Fraser: That was perfect.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Thank you very much.

Now we shall move back to the report of the subcommittee. Is there further discussion on the report of the subcommittee, as amended? There being none, I shall call for the vote on the amended report of the subcommittee. Those in favour? Those opposed? I declare the amended subcommittee report carried.

As final business, under item (3): I would just indicate that, in consultation with the Clerk and myself, we are looking at how long to run the ad on the radio, and to have it in Cree as well. Is there any discussion to help me make a final decision on that?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: If you could run it until Tuesday of next week, that would be fine.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): So the deadline is Friday, I believe, isn’t it? The deadline for written submissions? But people could still attend and not actually present, so—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Yes, but we said if somebody registers Tuesday or Wednesday, we’ll still take them if we’re not oversubscribed.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): If we’re not oversubscribed. Okay. We’ll work on that, to make sure. I’m of the opinion that I think we should do it in Cree as well. If there’s anyone opposed to that?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Oh, yes. They’ll automatically do it in Cree.

Interjection.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: They’ll automatically do it in Cree.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Okay, very good.

Interjection.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: As long as we don’t do the Cree, we’ll be all right.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Mr. Rinaldi.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Have the ads gone out already?

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Yes.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: They have?

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): As the Clerk has indicated, the Turtle Island one only comes out on the Wednesday, so it will run on the Wednesday.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Okay.

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Okay. There’s no further discussion? Mr. Fedeli.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: I want to say thanks for following up about whether the aircraft can land. The answer is no.

I’ve not sat on this committee, but on our standing committee on finance, they make accommodations. I have to fly from North Bay to Toronto now on the Tuesday, and I can’t fly home until the Friday, because of the time we get into Toronto. I’ll make the accommodations, but I am going to need two nights’ accommodations—one on Tuesday, one on Thursday night in Toronto—and a flight from North Bay to Toronto and a flight from Toronto to North Bay. That’s understood?

The Chair (Mr. Grant Crack): Yes. Thank you very much. Further discussion? I don’t think so. Business is complete. We are adjourned. Thank you very much.

The committee adjourned at 1431.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GENERAL GOVERNMENT

Chair / Président

Mr. Grant Crack (Glengarry–Prescott–Russell L)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Président

Mr. Granville Anderson (Durham L)

Mr. Granville Anderson (Durham L)

Mr. Yvan Baker (Etobicoke Centre / Etobicoke-Centre L)

Mr. Grant Crack (Glengarry–Prescott–Russell L)

Mr. John Fraser (Ottawa South L)

Mrs. Lisa Gretzky (Windsor West / Windsor-Ouest ND)

Mrs. Julia Munro (York–Simcoe PC)

Mr. Lou Rinaldi (Northumberland–Quinte West L)

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson (Huron–Bruce PC)

Ms. Soo Wong (Scarborough–Agincourt L)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants

Mr. Gilles Bisson (Timmins–James Bay / Timmins–Baie James ND)

Mr. Victor Fedeli (Nipissing PC)

Ms. Ann Hoggarth (Barrie L)

Clerk / Greffière

Ms. Sylwia Przezdziecki

Staff / Personnel

Ms. Laura Anthony, research officer,
Research Services