The committee met at 1302 in committee room 1.

Selection of estimates

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Good afternoon, everyone. The Standing Committee on Heritage, Infrastructure and Cultural Policy will now come to order. On our agenda today is the selection of estimates for consideration.

On September 8, 2022, the Lieutenant Governor transmitted to the Legislative Assembly the estimates of certain sums required for the services of the province for the year ending March 31, 2023. Pursuant to standing order 62(b), these estimates, upon tabling, are deemed to be referred to the standing committee to which the respective ministries and offices were assigned pursuant to standing order 113(b).

All committee members should have received an electronic copy of the 2022-23 estimates from the Clerk.

The objective of today’s meeting is to select the estimates of certain ministries for review by the committee. Standing order 63 sets out the process by which the committee makes its selections. Each of the recognized parties on the committee shall select the estimates of one ministry in each turn. The official opposition selects first, followed by the government. If members of one party decline to make a selection, the selection then passes to the next party in the rotation. The process concludes when either there are no further ministries available to select or both recognized parties decline to make any, or any further, selections.

Pursuant to standing order 63(c), these selections are to be reviewed in the order that they were chosen. However, this order may be altered by unanimous agreement of the subcommittee on committee business or by order of the House.

Pursuant to standing order 63(d), the time for the consideration of the estimates of each ministry or office shall be determined by the respective committee. The estimates of those ministries or offices not selected for consideration will be deemed to have been passed by the committee. As Chair, I will report these unselected estimates back to the House, and they will be deemed to be adopted and concurred in by the House.

In accordance with standing order 66(a), the committee must present a report to the House with respect to the estimates it selected and considered by the third Thursday of November of this year: November 17. If the committee fails to report by the third Thursday in November, the estimates and supplementary estimates before the committee will be deemed to be passed by the committee and deemed to be reported to and received by the House.

I would also like to add: When making your selections, if members could please look at the list of ministries and offices in the estimates book, or as displayed on the screen in front of you, and give the correct names of the ministries or offices when you select them for consideration.

Do members have any questions before we begin? All good?

I’ll start with the official opposition for the first selection. MPP Harden, please.

Mr. Joel Harden: Thank you, Chair—and I have to say it’s nice to see the purple today in the room.

Chair, I move—and I have distributed a copy of this to the Clerk—that we pick the Ministry of Transportation. And then, if I can just defer to your expertise, do I get into the detail of the depositions thereafter?

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): It’s just selections at this point.

Mr. Joel Harden: Okay. I read out the motion? I move that consideration of estimates for the Ministry of Transportation be 15 hours in total; and

That, until the time allotted for consideration of estimates of the selected ministry is—

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): I just have to interrupt the member. Just the selection—the Ministry of Transportation, I believe, is what you said?

Mr. Joel Harden: Yes.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Okay. We will now move to the government side for their selection. Mr. Thanigasalam?

Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: Madam Chair, I will select the Ministry of Infrastructure.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Okay. I’ll go again now to the official opposition. MPP Harden?

Mr. Joel Harden: Municipal affairs and housing.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): I will then go to the government. MPP Thanigasalam?

Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: I’ll select the Ministry of Heritage, Sport, Tourism and Culture Industries.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): And I’ll go back to the opposition.

Mr. Joel Harden: Energy.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Energy—which I believe is not on the list, so we do not have that at our committee.

We’ll go to the government. MPP Thanigasalam?

Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: There are no further government selections, Chair.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Okay. To the opposition: Any further selections?

Thank you all for your selections. Is there any other business which members may wish to raise? MPP Harden.

Mr. Joel Harden: Thank you, Chair. I’d like to move, around the consideration of estimates, a motion with respect to hearings.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Please read it in.

Mr. Joel Harden: I move that consideration of estimates for the Ministry of Transportation be 15 hours in total; and

That, until the time allotted for consideration of estimates of the selected ministry is expired, the committee shall meet from 9 a.m. to 10:15 a.m. and 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. on Mondays and Thursdays, 9 a.m. to 10:15 a.m. and 3:45 p.m. to 6 p.m. on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m. and 1 p.m. to 5 p.m. on Fridays during the weeks the House is sitting, and from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m. and 1 p.m. to 5 p.m. on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays during weeks the House is not scheduled to meet.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Okay. Thank you very much for the motion. We’re going to recess for 10 minutes, just so we can photocopy the motion and distribute it, and then we’ll be back at 1:18 roughly.

The committee recessed from 1308 to 1318.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Thank you, everyone. We’ll resume the Standing Committee on Heritage, Infrastructure and Cultural Policy.

MPP Harden has moved a motion. Is there any debate or discussion on the motion? We’re going to put the motion up on the screen here. I think everyone has a copy. MPP McMahon?

Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon: Good afternoon, everyone. Nice to see you all. I would just voice my support for this motion from my colleague.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Any further debate or discussion? Seeing none, are the members ready to vote? Shall the motion carry? All those in favour, please raise your hands. All those opposed, please raise your hands. I consider the motion lost.

Are there any other motions or business for discussion? MPP Thanigasalam, please.

Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: I move that, pursuant to standing order 63(d), the following time be allotted to the consideration of the estimates of the ministries selected by the committee:

—the Ministry of Infrastructure for two hours;

—the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing for two hours;

—the Ministry of Heritage, Sport, Tourism and Culture Industries for two hours;

—the Ministry of Transportation for two hours; and

That the ministers responsible for those respective ministries be invited to appear before the committee; and

That for the Ministry of Heritage, Sport, Tourism and Culture Industries, the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Sport be invited to appear before the committee; and

That respecting the committee’s consideration of the estimates of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and the Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing be jointly invited to appear before the committee and share the time allotted for an opening statement; and

That for each ministry, the minister be allotted 20 minutes to make an opening statement, followed by question and answer in rotations of 20 minutes for the official opposition members of the committee, 10 minutes for the independent member of the committee, and 20 minutes for the government members of the committee for the remainder of the allotted time; and

That the committee meet for the purpose of considering the estimates of the selected ministries at the following times:

—on Wednesday, November 16, from 9 a.m. until 10:15 a.m. and from 3 p.m. until 6 p.m.; and

—on Thursday, November 17, from 9 a.m. until 10:15 a.m.; and

That if any invited minister is unavailable to appear before the committee that the committee requires the parliamentary assistant or parliamentary assistants to appear before the committee in their place.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Thank you very much. We are going to do the same thing: We are going to take a 10-minute recess while we get the motion copied and into everyone’s hands. So we’ll have a recess for 10 minutes. Thank you.

The committee recessed from 1321 to 1331.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Thank you, everyone. We’ll reconvene the Standing Committee on Heritage, Infrastructure and Cultural Policy.

We all have in our hands the motion by MPP Thanigasalam. Is there any debate or discussion? MPP Harden.

Mr. Joel Harden: Just a question through you, Chair, to MPP Thanigasalam: I note that there are eight hours of time allocated in this motion for estimates, but as I understand it, in the dates prescribed here there are only five and a half hours of actual meeting time. I’m just wondering if MPP Thanigasalam can point out the discrepancy for me.

Interjections.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): MPP McMahon?

Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon: Chair, I would just say that on Thursday, November 17, it’s just missing the “3 p.m. to 6 p.m.” there. It only has the morning time—because I think you said 3 p.m. to 6 p.m. both days. I’m pretty sure.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): MPP Harden, further debate?

Mr. Joel Harden: I’m just wondering if my friends in the government can make sense of this for me. You’ve allocated eight hours of time for hearing the estimates of four different ministries, and—as it currently reads, at least—there’s not eight hours of hearing time.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Further debate? MPP McMahon.

Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon: It’s obvious it’s missing, because you have “and” and then you don’t have “3 p.m. to 6 p.m.” Do you know what I mean? It was the same time each day, except on the 17th. It only has the morning time and then has “and”. We just need to put “and from 3 p.m. to 6 p.m.”

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): MPP Thanigasalam?

Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: On Thursday, we cannot meet from 3 p.m. to 6 p.m. That’s why I did not say “3 p.m. to 6 p.m.” on Thursday, November 17. It’s from 9 a.m. to 10:15 only.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Further debate and discussion?

Mr. Joel Harden: With the Chair’s indulgence and MPP Thanigasalam’s indulgence, I’d like to move an amendment to the motion so we can have appropriate time here for the amount of time allotted to estimates. Can we have a recess so we can discuss what an appropriate amendment would be?

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Any further discussion? I’ll have to get you to move your amendment, then, MPP Harden. Just say, “I move.”

Interjection.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Wait a minute. MPP McMahon, do you want to—

Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon: Well, I would just agree that we’ve allocated eight hours but only scheduled five hours, so it does not make sense. We’re short three hours to discuss the estimates, so I would agree that we need to figure out an amendment.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Okay. MPP Harden?

Mr. Joel Harden: I move to amend the motion to insert that the committee meet for an additional three hours in addition to what is posted here.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): We’re just going to have to recess for a few minutes, to get that printed—10 minutes. Unless, MPP Thanigasalam, did you want to speak before we—

Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: No, I have a motion to propose, so I’ll come back.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Okay. We’ll just take those one at a time. We’ll recess for 10 minutes.

The committee recessed from 1335 to 1352.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Thank you, everyone. We’re now going to resume, again, the Standing Committee on Heritage, Infrastructure and Cultural Policy. I’ll just confirm with MPP Harden that we’re continuing with your amendment?

Mr. Joel Harden: Yes.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): So we’ll have to make a ruling. It’s out of order, as indicated in standing order 66(a): “Each standing committee shall present one report with respect to all of the estimates and supplementary estimates considered pursuant to standing orders 63 and 65 no later than the third Thursday in November of each calendar year.”

Further discussion? MPP Andrew.

MPP Jill Andrew: I’d like to put forth the following amendment.

Delete after the first paragraph and replace with:

“That consideration of estimates for the Ministry of Infrastructure be 10 hours in total; and

“That consideration of estimates for the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing be 10 hours in total; and

“That consideration of estimates for the ministry of heritage, sport and tourism be 10 hours in total; and

“That consideration of estimates for the Ministry of Transportation be 10 hours in total; and

“That the committee shall meet from 9 a.m. to 10:15 a.m. and 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. on Mondays and Thursdays, 9 a.m. to 10:15 a.m. and 3:45 p.m. to 6 p.m. on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m. and 1 p.m. to 5 p.m. on Fridays during weeks the House is sitting, and from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m. and 1 p.m. to 5 p.m. on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays during weeks the House is not scheduled to meet; and

“That the committee shall continue to meet until consideration of these ministries has concluded or the time allotted for consideration of estimates has expired.”

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): At this point we’re going to have to take another 10-minute recess so that we can administratively make copies and hand them out. The committee is adjourned for another 10 minutes.

The committee recessed from 1354 to 1404.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Thank you, once again, everyone. We’ll resume the committee of heritage, infrastructure and cultural policy.

We have an amendment to a motion made by MPP Andrew. Is there any discussion or debate on this motion? MPP Harden?

Mr. Joel Harden: I just want to congratulate my colleague, because what we began with, Chair, as we saw, was a motion that was proposing eight hours of time for us to review important estimates for the province of Ontario, but five and a half hours of meeting time—I mean, I don’t know. Maybe The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy is our key to understanding the logic behind that, but my view is that if you allocate eight hours of time to review the estimates for the province—it’s important work—you have to have commensurate amounts of time to accommodate that. MPP Andrew has taken us back to a significant amount of time to debate the estimates, which I think all parties should support. We certainly don’t want to be perceived to rush the work of the province. So I want to thank my friend for doing so.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Any further discussion? MPP McMahon.

Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon: Thank you very much. Like I did with my colleague this morning, I will be supporting this. I think a thoughtful and thorough process is needed. We are down from 15 hours per ministry to 10.

But this motion from my other colleague doesn’t make sense. I don’t know in what corporation or organization it would make sense. When we’re specifically allocating two hours per ministry, which is a total sum of eight hours, and then we’re only scheduling five hours—I mean, that would just be a glitch that would be corrected in other organizations. I’m not sure why we wouldn’t be correcting that, so I’m happy to support the MPP for University–Rosedale’s—

MPP Jill Andrew: Toronto–St. Paul’s.

Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon: Toronto–St. Paul’s; I need to get a map up there—her motion.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Thank you very much.

MPP Thanigasalam?

Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: Chair, our motion proposes a fair amount of time for ministers as well as committee members to prepare to appear while using as much available time as the committee has on its permanent meeting days. Therefore, again, this proposal allows us to have a more efficient and, obviously, more surgical approach to study the estimates with all ministries in the committee. Thank you.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Any further debate? In rotation, I’ll go to MPP Andrew and then come back. Is that okay? MPP Andrew.

MPP Jill Andrew: I just wanted to put on the record that I think having substantive time allows us to do the best possible job for our constituents, and it allows us to bring their voices or their concerns into any committee that we’re sitting on. So while efficiency may be a certain goal in certain spaces, I think here it’s about having time to analyze what’s in front of us and to bring the voices of our community forward.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Further debate? MPP McGregor.

Mr. Graham McGregor: I want to thank my colleague for the thoughtful amendment. I’ll read it, and then I’ll give some of my feedback. I see that my colleague’s amendment is:

“That consideration of estimates for the Ministry of Infrastructure be 10 hours in total; and

“That consideration of estimates for the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing be 10 hours in total; and

“That consideration of estimates for the Ministry of Heritage, Sport and Tourism be 10 hours in total; and

“That consideration of estimates for the Ministry of Transportation be 10 hours in total; and

“That the committee shall meet from 9 a.m. to 10:15 a.m. and 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. on Mondays and Thursdays, 9 a.m. to 10:15 a.m. and 3:45 p.m. to 6 p.m. on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m. and 1 p.m. to 5 p.m. on Fridays during weeks the House is sitting, and from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m. and 1 p.m. to 5 p.m. on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays during weeks the House is not scheduled to meet; and

“That the committee shall continue to meet until consideration of these ministries has concluded or the time allotted for consideration of estimates has expired.”

Now, it’s a very thoughtful motion. I agree that we’re here to serve the public, and I certainly appreciate the colleague; unfortunately, I won’t be supporting the amendment. I certainly agree much more with the current motion, which, as we know, says:

“I move that, pursuant to standing order 63(d), the following time be allotted to the consideration of the estimates of the ministries selected by the committee:

“—the Ministry of Infrastructure for two hours;

“—the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing for two hours;

“—the Ministry of Heritage, Sport, Tourism and Culture Industries for two hours;” and

“—the Ministry of Transportation for two hours.”

When we look at these times and we compare—look at the federal government, right? We hear a lot about the federal government nowadays. When you compare the time allotted in our committees, it’s actually a lot more generous in terms of time than the federal times.

I look at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. It’s very important—maybe less important in Toronto–St. Paul’s or Ottawa Centre, but it’s certainly important in many parts of the province and, I’d say, important to everybody in the province, because we all eat, whether we farm or not. In estimates in the federal government, that ministry receives one hour with the minister, one hour with officials, and that’s for the whole country. That’s nationwide.

So when we look at a provincial ministry, humbly, I do think we have ample time with the two hours for each of these ministries with the committee. Certainly, I think Ontarians had ample time during the recent election campaign, where they voted on all of these numbers being put together in a budget that was actually released as a platform by the PC government, when they elected a majority PC government to implement it.

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I appreciate where my colleague is coming from. I no doubt believe she has the best interests of the constituents at heart. But I do think the amendment would be wrong for the committee to support. I’ll certainly be supporting the original motion as written, which also includes:

“That the ministers responsible for those respective ministries be invited to appear before the committee; and

“That for the Ministry of Heritage, Sport, Tourism and Culture Industries, the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Sport be invited to appear before the committee”—which I support; and

“That respecting the committee’s consideration of the estimates of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and the Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing be jointly invited to appear before the committee and share the time allotted for an opening statement; and

“That for each ministry, the minister be allotted 20 minutes to make an opening statement, followed by question and answer in rotations of 20 minutes for the official opposition”—the two members that we see here today or their designates; “10 minutes for the independent member of the committee, and 20 minutes for the government members of the committee for the remainder of the allotted time; and

“That the committee meet for the purpose of considering the estimates of the selected ministries at the following times:

“—on Wednesday, November 16, from 9 a.m. until 10:15 a.m. and from 3 p.m. until 6 p.m.; and

“—on Thursday, November 17, from 9 a.m. until 10:15 a.m.; and

“That if any minister is unavailable to appear before the committee that the committee requires their parliamentary assistant or parliamentary assistants to appear before the committee in their place.”

I think this is a well-balanced approach that gives us the time to do the work that we need to do—certainly the work that Ontarians expect us to do. I certainly hope my colleague will reconsider, withdraw her motion, which I certainly will not be voting for—amendment, sorry; new MPP here—amendment to the motion and certainly consider supporting the motion put forward from this side.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Any further debate or discussion? Seeing none, are the members ready to vote? Yes?

Interjections.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): MPP Andrew has moved a motion, and that’s what we will be commencing voting on, if we’re all in agreement. Okay. Shall the motion carry? All those in favour, please raise your hands. All those opposed, please raise your hands.

Mr. Joel Harden: Recorded vote, Chair.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): I’m sorry; we already voted. It’s too late to ask for that now.

The motion is now lost.

Is there any other business or motion before the committee today?

Now returning to the main motion: Any further debate on the main motion? I don’t think so. Seeing no further discussion—but, apparently, there is. MPP Harden.

Mr. Joel Harden: I’d like a recorded vote, please.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): A recorded vote. Thank you very much.

So the main motion, as brought forward by MPP Thanigasalam, is what we’ll be voting on now. Confirming: Any further debate on that motion? Seeing none, all those in favour of the—just a second, we’ll just have to record it.

Ayes

Grewal, Holland, McGregor, Pang, Sabawy, Laura Smith, Thanigasalam.

Nays

Andrew, Harden, McMahon.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): The motion is carried.

Is there any further business for the committee today? MPP Thanigasalam.

Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam: I move that the committee meet for the purpose of considering committee business on Monday, October 31, 2022, at 3 p.m.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): The good news is there’s no recess needed. We’ll put it up on the screen.

The motion is now up on the screen. Any further discussion or debate? MPP Harden.

Mr. Joel Harden: I’m just wondering when we can expect an agenda for that meeting.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): If the committee approves the motion before us now, then later this evening you will be expected to receive an agenda. MPP McMahon?

Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon: I’m wondering the time allocation for that meeting, if we have any idea.

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): Any further debate? Okay. Are the members ready to vote on the proposed motion in front of us? All those in favour, please raise your hands.

Mr. Graham McGregor: Can we get a recorded vote?

The Chair (Ms. Laurie Scott): It’s too late to ask.

All those opposed? Seeing none, the motion carries.

This meeting is now adjourned until Monday, October 31, 2022, at 3 p.m. Thanks, everyone.

The committee adjourned at 1417.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HERITAGE, INFRASTRUCTURE AND CULTURAL POLICY

Chair / Présidente

Ms. Laurie Scott (Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock PC)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Présidente

MPP Laura Mae Lindo (Kitchener Centre / Kitchener-Centre ND)

MPP Jill Andrew (Toronto–St. Paul’s ND)

Mr. Hardeep Singh Grewal (Brampton East / Brampton-Est PC)

Mr. Joel Harden (Ottawa Centre / Ottawa-Centre ND)

Mr. Kevin Holland (Thunder Bay–Atikokan PC)

MPP Laura Mae Lindo (Kitchener Centre / Kitchener-Centre ND)

Mr. Graham McGregor (Brampton North / Brampton-Nord PC)

Ms. Mary-Margaret McMahon (Beaches–East York L)

Mr. Billy Pang (Markham–Unionville PC)

Mr. Sheref Sabawy (Mississauga–Erin Mills PC)

Ms. Laurie Scott (Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock PC)

Ms. Laura Smith (Thornhill PC)

Mr. Vijay Thanigasalam (Scarborough–Rouge Park PC)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants

Mr. Nolan Quinn (Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry PC)

Mrs. Nina Tangri (Mississauga–Streetsville PC)

Clerk / Greffier

Mr. Isaiah Thorning

Staff / Personnel

Mr. Michael Vidoni, research officer,
Research Services