Hansard Transcript 1986-Jan-10 | Legislative Assembly of Ontario

Mr. Grossman: I have a question for the Premier. He was quoted this week with regard to the trust company circumstance of a couple of years ago as saying, "There was a very strange relationship between the trust companies, regulatory officials, the government and others." I wonder whether he might describe and outline what he considers to be the very strange relationship.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I can go back and talk about the history of this. The Leader of the Opposition will recall, because he was in the government at that time, that what transpired in this province was one of the great regulatory failures of all time. In other words, when those trust companies ran into the problems they had, the government should have been on top of them.

As the honourable member may recall, a number of former cabinet ministers of his government were on the boards of some of these companies, and they resigned. There was never any action brought for liability or responsibility. He will recall the closeness of some of those relationships, which were never investigated.

In my view, there should have been an independent royal commission inquiry into that entire matter. I can assure the member I would call for that today if I thought it would be productive, but we are too far away from it. We have lost the opportunity for that. There are so many unanswered questions. The police are still investigating. Who knows what will come out of that? When one looks back, it was a real disgrace for this province.

Mr. Grossman: I am concerned about the Premier of this province saying publicly with regard to regulatory officials, government officials and elected officials that there was "a very strange relationship." In fairness, with all the words the Premier has used this morning, it is incumbent upon him to say whether he is or is not suggesting there was anything even remotely improper in the relationship between "others" and the former Premier of this province, Dr. Elgie and government officials in the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations. By using these careless words, which have left an unfair and improper impression out there, he has suggested, with respect, that there was something improper in these relationships.

Can the Premier specify whether he meant there was anything improper in the relationships involving former Premier Davis, Dr. Elgie or any officials in the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I have never impugned the integrity of Mr. Davis or Dr. Elgie. I have discussed this matter I do not know how many times in this House, and I will say again I think there was tremendous incompetence by the former government, for which it was responsible.

I will do that. We discussed this day after day in this House. The government refused to do anything about it at that time, and we still have the sorry spectacle of not knowing the outcome. The Leader of the Opposition wants to drag me into some kind of personal fight. That is his style. It is not my style, and I do not need to be like that.

Mr. Rae: Many of us who have watched this government with interest have noted that this same ministry and those same officials of whom the then Leader of the Opposition was so critical two years ago have been totally unchanged, with the exception of the replacement of the old minister by the new minister, the minister for economics 101. We all know how major a change that has been in the life of the province.

Can the Premier stand up and say he has complete confidence in the staff of the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations, the same people who were involved? If he does have complete confidence, why did he make his comments about the so-called strange relationship?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: The honourable member will recall the trust company affair, as I do. He and I agreed on a number of the conclusions we came to at the time. I can assure him it is something we have worried about. We have looked at the Dupré report, as he knows, which made some very serious recommendations with respect to restructuring. We take these matters extremely seriously and we will be moving on them in the very near future.

Mr. Grossman: The question is not whether there was regulatory failure, whether some things could have been done or whether there was incompetence; that was not the point of the comments the Premier made. When he wants to lecture me or any member of this House about playing fast and loose with words and the truth, it was he who moved this into an area that involved personalities, when he said "there was a very strange relationship between the trust companies, regulatory officials, the government and others." Those are people who are still employed by him in this government.

Let us just go through those one last time. By referring to "the government," the Premier must be referring to former Premier Davis, Dr. Elgie, whom he has appointed to head the Workers' Compensation Board, or other then ministers of the crown. Was he referring to a strange relationship between them and others, or was he referring to a strange relationship between the civil servants, all of whom are still employed by him and his government, and others? That is the personal innuendo the Premier got into, and I am inviting him to apologize and to clarify the record this morning. Which ones was he referring to?

10:10 a.m.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I was referring to a number of the people who were on the board of Crown Trust.

Mr. Grossman: Who?

Mr. Rae: Who? Name names.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: There was David Cowper. John Clement was on the board and there were others. The member will recall those discussions in the House. He will recall they resigned. They were not involved in part of the investigation. The member knows exactly the kinds of things that were going on at the time. It is my view that we should have had an investigation into all of that, but somehow it all sort of evaporated.

SUNDAY TRADING

Mr. Sterling: I have a question for the Solicitor General in relation to Sunday closing laws. The Solicitor General has stated publicly there is nothing wrong with the current laws regarding Sunday shopping. The minister announced to this Legislature on January 6 that he was going to review Sunday closing laws after the cases before the Supreme Court were decided. The Premier has stated he favours more relaxed Sunday shopping laws. What is the government's position on this matter?

Hon. Mr. Keyes: The government's position is clear. We will be reviewing the law in a wide-open manner with input from every member of this House, from the public, from retailers and maybe from one of the client groups served by that law of this parliament. It will be wide open. We will consider the input and then we will make our decision as to whether and to what extent amendments will be made.

Mr. Sterling: It is hard to imagine why the government is having the review when it has decided on two different positions.

The Solicitor General is aware that the rule of law provides that the application of the law be made without discretion in its application. At present, cases dealing with Sunday closing laws and bylaws are before the Supreme Court of Canada. The minister and the Attorney General (Mr. Scott) have stated the province will continue to prosecute those who violate the Retail Business Holidays Act in the interim.

Mr. Speaker: Is your question "Do you agree?"

Mr. Sterling: No. The case of Dr. Henry Morgentaler is also before the Supreme Court of Canada. However, this government has decided to discontinue the prosecution of Dr. Morgentaler.

Mr. Speaker: Question, please.

Mr. Sterling: Why does this government treat Dr. Morgentaler in a less severe manner than the retail shops of this province?

Hon. Mr. Keyes: With regard to the responsibility of the Ministry of the Solicitor General, it is to enforce the Retail Business Holidays Act, and the position the honourable member has stated is so. We intend to continue to lay charges against people who violate the law of this country. As he knows, the matter is before the Supreme Court.

If the honourable member wishes any comment on or comparison between the government's position with respect to the Retail Business Holidays Act and that of any other individual, I suggest he direct his question to the Ministry of the Attorney General, which deals with that issue.

Mr. Warner: Now that the member for Carleton-Grenville (Mr. Sterling) has holstered his gun, will the Solicitor General, while he is considering the kind of change that would undermine the family life structure we have so assiduously built over decades in this province, give us the assurance of doing two things: (1) make it absolutely clear that for first offences the crown is asking for the maximum $10,000 fine; (2) treat the special case of the Boxing Day fiasco, where literally several hundred stores flouted the law, with special --

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. McClellan: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: You allowed the member of the Tory party to go on for five minutes, and you cut this member off after one minute.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Ashe: There goes the alliance.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I heard two questions being placed for a supplementary. Would the minister answer?

Hon. Mr. Keyes: Members on both sides of the House, I am sure, find it abhorrent that people break the law of the land. We have charged those people who do break the law of the land. We have said we want the maximum fine to be imposed on those people who have so violated the law, particularly with respect to the most recent holiday examples of breaking the law.

Mr. Sterling: The minister's responsibility is to enforce the law and to charge people who have broken it, as he has said. Does the minister then agree with Provincial Court Judge Lorenzo DiCecco, who recently has stated the Morgentaler clinic is being kept open for only one purpose and that is to flout the law?

Hon. Mr. Keyes: I have not expressed any agreement with the decision the honourable gentleman has rendered; I have not apprised myself of it. I have stated the case of this government with respect to the enforcement of this particular law, and it has been made very clear.

INSURANCE RATES

Mr. Rae: I want to go back to the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations and talk a bit about car insurance and the epidemic of price competition that has resulted in such a slashing of rates. He described it as the rate-cutting wars of the early 1980s.

Since the minister proclaimed his economic knowledge yesterday in the House with such force, can he explain how it is possible that in the community of Bruce Mines, which is a community of 400 in the constituency of my colleague the member for Algoma (Mr. Wildman), a 21-year-old with a clear driving record would pay $2,544 in premiums for car insurance, whereas in Winnipeg, where there is, as the minister will know, a state monopoly on insurance, somebody pays $447 and in Prince George, British Columbia, where there is also a state monopoly on insurance, one pays $677?

Can he explain why Ontario, the haven of price competition that has resulted in this dramatic slashing of rates, has produced a car insurance rate of $2,544, whereas in those provinces that have chosen a monopoly, we see rates that are roughly a quarter or in some cases a sixth of what they are in the metropolis of Bruce Mines?

Hon. Mr. Kwinter: The rates are set on an individual basis within a specific jurisdiction. There is no sense in comparing Winnipeg with Ontario or Manitoba with BC. Each of those jurisdictions is dealt with separately.

As far as the 21-year-old is concerned, if the honourable member has ever had a son or a daughter who has tried to get insurance, he would know that the sons in particular are in the absolutely highest risk factor, and it is based on claim experience.

Mr. Rae: The minister is really missing the boat on this one.

An hon. member: Is there a boat in Bruce Mines?

Mr. Rae: We will get to that insurance problem in a moment; I want to stay with cars if I can.

The minister has to appreciate that what is happening in Ontario is a ripoff of the consumer of historic proportions, that consumers are being ripped off in comparison to drivers in other parts of Canada and that the minister is in a position to do something about it.

10:20 a.m.

I am not asking him to go to London to talk about reinsurance. Reinsurance affects Winnipeg, Regina and British Columbia as much as it affects us here in Ontario. Why are their rates so substantially lower for drivers in the same category, and why in communities of comparable size and risk are there discrepancies of three and four times? Why is that the case and what is the minister going to do to protect the consumers of this province?

Hon. Mr. Kwinter: That is one of the topics the task force will address, and we will wait to see its reply.

Mr. Grossman: I have a simple question for the minister. Can he tell us whether he thinks the rates in Bruce Mines are justified?

Hon. Mr. Kwinter: I do not know, because I do not know the claim experience in that area.

That is something we will look at in a general way to decide whether those rates are justified.

Mr. Rae: The minister's staff could do what my staff has done; that is, present a series of hypothetical examples to a series of companies to come up with some figures. It is not difficult to do.

I am talking about an accident-clear, 21-year-old driver driving a Plymouth Reliant, which was the example of car we gave. The figure in Elliot Lake is $2,847, in Bruce Mines $2,544, in Toronto $2,755 and in Hamilton $2,183. The figure in Brandon is $344, in Vancouver $715 and in Regina $407. There is no comparison of the figures involved here.

We are talking about drivers in communities of very small size in Ontario. They do not have huge accidents, and they have very small populations. There are 400 people living in Bruce Mines. Why should somebody living in Bruce Mines, a community of 400, be paying rates of insurance that are six times what people are paying in Brandon, Manitoba? Why is that the case and why is the minister not standing up for Ontario consumers rather than just being an apologist for the insurance industry of this province?

Hon. Mr. Kwinter: I do not want to answer a question with a question, but in all the research the leader of the third party has done, has he asked the insurance company in Manitoba to quote on that insurance in Ontario and find out what kind of rate it has?

[Applause]

Mr. Rae: Move him up. Shuffle him up. Give this guy a break. Anybody who would applaud that answer deserves a raise. Give this man a car. Get him a car and a driver. Even Bill Davis gave me a car.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: He gave the member for York South (Mr. Rae) a QC too.

Mr. Rae: Only after he gave it to the member for London Centre (Mr. Peterson).

PENSION REFORM

Mr. Rae: My next question is to the Treasurer, who is smiling at the end of the week. I notice with interest that the Treasurer, whose speeches we always follow with interest, will be the keynote speaker at the Ontario region meeting of the Canadian Pension Conference on Friday, January 17, 1986.

In that regard, he will know that somebody retiring in 1975 on a private pension has had the value of that private pension reduced by 50 per cent as a result of inflation since 1975. In the long-awaited process of pension reform, is it the position of the government of Ontario that pensioners on a private pension will be assured of indexing to cover increases in the cost of living in those private pensions? Will indexing be a feature of the Treasurer's reform, and if not, why not?

Hon. Mr. Nixon: The answer is that it will not be. The work that has gone on through the treasury offices in the provinces across Canada must be three or four years old. Most of the work was done

Interjection.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: Five years, I am told by an eminent authority.

Most of the work was done when the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Grossman) was Treasurer. As nearly as I can gather, he was, as usual, a very effective spokesman in these matters in dealing with the treasurers from the other provinces. The point of the whole operation is to get the best consensus among the provinces so legislation can be introduced that will be basically uniform across the country in order that people employed in Alberta can move from one province to another, or to the Maritimes, and have the same basic coverage.

Although Ontario, under the previous government and this one, has attempted to have this consensus, including indexing, we have not been successful. Therefore, I expect the consensus legislation, which I believe will be introduced by my colleague the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Kwinter) some time in the next few weeks, will not have the indexing component.

As a government or as a Legislature, we can improve the situation for our pensioners if we have a program that is reasonable, rational and supportable. However, the basic legislation which is the consensus across Canada will not include it.

Mr. Rae: What the minister has done for the insurance companies the Treasurer is also doing. It is a huge ripoff of pensioners and consumers generally. He is allowing the pension companies to skim that off without passing on the incredible increases in interest rates and the incredible impact of inflation in the past 10 years.

Why should people in Ontario be held hostage by the pension companies, the insurance companies and now the Tory Premiers in other provinces? Why is the government not prepared to go it alone and set an example with respect to the basic question of indexing, when it has been the historic position of the Liberal Party and indeed of this Legislature as a whole that we will provide for indexing?

Mr. Speaker: Order. The question has been asked.

Mr. Rae: The Treasurer said it would happen. Why is the government holding Ontario hostage to those reactionary Tory Premiers and the pension companies?

Hon. Mr. Nixon: I am always very impressed by the energy the leader of the third party can put into Friday morning question periods.

We all agree he is talking about an extremely important matter. However, the legislation that is going to be introduced is, I suppose, the lowest common denominator that is acceptable to all the provinces. I admit that. We could also say Ontario can take a leading role in this, but the legislation we bring in is as a result of endless conferences, most of them attended by the now Leader of the Opposition and the staff of Treasury, which is still there. I want to make a point of that. I can assure the honourable member the position has been very strongly for the inclusion of indexing.

What Ontario and this government can do in the future, on the basis of that lowest-common-denominator legislation, remains to be seen. These matters are still under discussion.

Mr. Andrewes: As I understand it, the agreement reached between the provinces and the federal government was that various features of the plan did not all have to be uniform.

Can the Treasurer tell this House specifically whether the government of Ontario still supports the principle of inflation protection, which was the position put forward by the previous government in those discussions?

Hon. Mr. Nixon: We feel the pensions ought to have protection built in either directly or with ancillary programs. As the honourable member knows, the pension plan for the public service and teachers' superannuation is a combination of two plans. We have the basic one, which does not have inflation protection built in, and an additional one, which does.

The member, who is an astute critic of Treasury, knows that while the basic plans are in good actuarial shape, the one that deals with the provision of an additional indexing payment suffers from actuarial dislocation, if I may refer to it that way. These matters are certainly under review, and continuing review.

Mr. Rae: Because he is such an assiduous historian of his own ministry, the Treasurer will know what was said in June 1984 by the then Treasurer, who has gone on to much greater things. A newspaper reported: "Ontario will press ahead with plans to partially protect private pensions from the effects of inflation even if other provinces disagree. Grossman vowed to go it alone if no agreement is reached by year's end." In December 1984, he was quoted as saying: "We will still press ahead at some future date, alone if necessary."

Why is the Treasurer simply imitating the Leader of the Opposition and the leader of the Tory party in his craven backsliding when it comes to a question of indexing in the province? The Liberal Party has been on record for a decade on indexing. Why is the Treasurer not prepared to put a policy forward that has the consensus of all three parties of this Legislature and let Ontario take a lead when it comes to pension reform?

Hon. Mr. Nixon: We are continuing to give the matter earnest consideration.

10:30 a.m.

COURT RULING

Mr. Gillies: My question is of the Attorney General regarding the conviction in Brantford last week of one George Harkness on a charge of sexual assault of a nine-year-old child. Is the Attorney General aware that this was the third such conviction registered against Mr. Harkness and that he was sentenced to two years' probation?

Does the Attorney General agree with me and the vast majority of my constituents that this sentence is completely inappropriate for this type of repeat offender? Will he undertake to appeal that sentence on behalf of the crown?

Hon. Mr. Scott: I am not aware of the facts of that case, but we in the ministry conduct reviews of these decisions, particularly decisions of that type. We will undertake to do so and determine whether an appeal should be taken. I will report to the House when that decision has been made.

As the honourable member knows, it is our practice -- and it is a good one and fair to the judges -- not to make that decision until we have reviewed the judge's reasons for judgement, if any, or a transcript of his oral remarks, and received a report from the crown attorney in charge of the prosecution of the case.

Mr. Gillies: I thank the Attorney General for undertaking to review this. I hope he will do so expeditiously. In doing so, will the Attorney General review the reported remarks by the judge in this case, who, in making his judgement, said:

"Enough people go to jail for sexual assaults that the court can be lenient in some cases. Public deterrent does not require sending this man to jail because enough other people are jailed for such offences."

Does the Attorney General agree with me that it is nothing short of outrageous for a member of the bench to use that as his rationale for a sentence in this type of offence?

Will he, on behalf of the crown and his government, communicate very clearly to the public of this province that he sees this type of offence as extremely serious and that it will be dealt with by the crown and by the judiciary in an extremely serious fashion in the future?

Hon. Mr. Scott: The member comments that the excerpt that he gave from the judge's reasons is outrageous. I myself would not engage in that kind of judge-bashing.

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: When he bashes them, they stay bashed.

Hon. Mr. Scott: I thank the member for that excerpt. That is precisely the reason we try to get a copy of the transcript of the judge's remarks before we make the determination.

I want the member to be assured, because this case comes from his constituency, that we will give very serious consideration to whether an appeal should be taken and report to him in the House.

EMPLOYEE HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr. Mackenzie: I have a question of the Minister of Labour. Is the minister aware of the sale of four of the Manville Canada plants to Canron Inc., and specifically the sale of the Port Union plant to a company called Manson?

Can the minister tell us why the Energy and Chemical Workers Union is having so much difficulty in getting answers about the protection of pensions for those who have not yet reached the vesting period in their pensions or about the workers who will be kept on by the new purchasers in these plants?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: No, I am not aware, but I will look into the matter. I do not believe the union involved in this matter has been in touch with my office, but I will check immediately and report back to the member.

Mr. Mackenzie: Will the minister also give this House an assurance that this company, which has left such a terrible legacy of wasted lungs and bodies in this city and in this province, will be forced to maintain responsibility for the monitoring of the employees so we can take care of not only existing problems but also future asbestosic and cancer cases that will come out of the employees of Manville Canada?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I am aware of the serious point the member makes. We will be reviewing this matter thoroughly. What we have had in terms of the number of workers can best be described as a very tragic situation. The Royal Commission on Matters of Health and Safety Arising from the Use of Asbestos in Ontario made specific comment on the situation involving Manville Canada. I will take a look at the whole issue and report back to the member.

Mr. Gillies: The minister has had the royal commission's recommendations for some time. Will he undertake to review specifically the provisions regarding the recipients of workers' compensation benefits and their survivors in the cases of asbestosis, and will he move expeditiously to implement those recommendations, which I am sure he will agree are both fair and reasonable for the people involved?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: As the honourable member knows, a number of the recommendations of the royal commission have already been implemented. In a conversation with the chairman of the Workers' Compensation Board earlier this week, we touched on the matters of the royal commission, particularly as they pertained to the area about which the member has asked questions. I know there is an active review under way, under the direction of the chairman's special assistant, which I believe will be completed shortly.

INSURANCE RATES

Hon. Mr. Kwinter: Yesterday the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Grossman) and the member for Leeds (Mr. Runciman) both alluded to a commission set up by the previous government to look into various problems in the insurance industry. I replied that I had no knowledge of it, and the member for Leeds issued a press release which stated this was "inexcusable, claiming that Kwinter's ignorance of the insurance area of his ministry has contributed to the present crisis."

I now find, after investigation, that a commission was never established by the previous government. A previous minister did establish a committee to pursue that minister's policy initiative. The matter was not brought forward to me because of the parliamentary convention governing the change of government. For that reason, this matter was never brought forward to me by my officials.

Having said that, I should say to the Leader of the Opposition and to the member for Leeds that, when the committee did meet, it made no recommendations and it met only twice. It was not terminated by this government on July 4, as the leader and the member said. The terms of reference were exceedingly narrow and had nothing to do with today's problems. The committee was discussing whether to raise the legal minimum level of coverage under standard automobile insurance from $200,000 to $300,000. In both cases, the Leader of the Opposition was wrong and the member for Leeds was wrong.

Mr. McClellan: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker --

Mr. Gillies: This is not a response to a previously asked question.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I shall listen to the point of order. I was going to suggest, however, I feel something like this should have been made as a statement prior to question period.

Mr. Rae: Why did you not stop him?

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: Add some time to the question period.

Mr. Speaker: Order. My suggestion was going to be that. I will add a minute to the question period.

Mr. McClellan: Two minutes.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

MULTICULTURAL POLICY

Mr. Leluk: I have a question for the first Minister of Citizenship and Culture. Given that --

Mr. McClellan: Which one? Name names.

Mr. Leluk: I have to differentiate between the two. Given that neither the minister nor her Premier (Mr. Peterson) will table a Liberal multicultural policy, will she please advise this House why she has her auxiliary minister, the member for Parkdale (Mr. Ruprecht), travelling around the province attempting to put together a report on multiculturalism when she indicated in her ministry's estimates the other day that she sees no need to change the current policy established by the Progressive Conservative government back in 1971?

Hon. Ms. Munro: I indicated in the estimates that policy cannot and should not be changed simply because a new government comes in. Our party is on record as indicating the policy changes we would like to insist on when we are in government. Policy springs from the grass roots. Many of the universal principles espoused and put into place by the Conservative government were direct results of a strong Legislature. I suggest to the honourable member that many of those policies reflected the views of all parties -- Liberal, New Democratic and Conservative.

If we are going to change the policy, it will be done as a result of a lot of careful thinking.

10:40 a.m.

Interjections.

Hon. Ms. Munro: That is rather refreshing, I would think.

My colleague the Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Ruprecht) is currently taking on a very responsive movement throughout the province to various centres trying to achieve some feedback that might relate to policy as a result of examining programs and services. He is doing a very good job and the communities are very responsive. That is only one measure by which we would consider introducing policy changes.

We also have interministerial committees, as I have told members. As the Minister of Citizenship and Culture, I am pressing on my cabinet colleagues, and they are most supportive, the necessity of considering multicultural concerns in all phases of our programs and services.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that is an ample response.

Mr. Leluk: I was not sure whether the minister referred to her colleague the Minister without Portfolio, but I have a supplementary question to the first minister.

On December 19, I asked her auxiliary minister whether he had any terms of reference for his current study on multiculturalism and how much each of his 21 meetings across this province would cost, including travel and accommodation costs for himself and his ministry officials. I also asked what organizations he would be meeting, whether he had consulted the Ontario Advisory Council on Multiculturalism and Citizenship and when he would be making his multiculturalism report public.

I have yet to receive answers to these questions. Could the first minister provide me with the answers now?

Hon. Ms. Munro: As the honourable member knows, the dialogue process will take place during a number of months. I have every confidence that my colleague will table the information the member requested at the appropriate time. He is in constant contact with me on the kinds of information he is receiving from the communities.

I do not want to pre-empt him by sharing at this time the results of the community dialogue. Let me say that responses are very positive and that we are listening. I indicated to the member in estimates the other day that listening is a very valid response of this government, especially when we intend to do something with what we hear.

Mr. Grande: Is the minister aware that the Progressive Conservative Party has always used multiculturism and ethnic groups in this province during election campaigns in an exploitive way? Will the minister --

Mr. Timbrell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I understood you to call for a supplementary question, not a political diatribe. That is not a supplementary question.

Mr. Rae: Mr. Speaker, the Tory party is making a very important point. You should consider the degree to which politics should enter into any of our discussions here in the Legislature.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I will admit that the original question referred to some work being done by the parliamentary assistant. Does the honourable member have a supplementary?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Please allow at least me to hear.

Mr. Grande: Is the Minister of Citizenship and Culture aware of the performance of the former government in making major announcements regarding multiculturalism in this province at the beginning of the 1977 election campaign, at the beginning of the 1984 election campaign --

Mr. Speaker: Order. With respect, I do not see how that is supplementary to the question.

DOMESTIC WORKERS

Ms. Gigantes: My question is for the Minister of Labour. For nine years, the situation affecting the work of domestics in this province has been raised time after time in this Legislature. Up to two years ago, the minister himself suggested strongly that the hours of work and overtime pay for domestic workers had to be addressed. What is the delay?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: The delay is that the ministry has not completed addressing it. We have been actively addressing this as recently as approximately a week ago. One of my senior policy assistants met again with the International Coalition to End Domestics' Exploitation. The meetings are ongoing. We expect that once we have concluded addressing it, not only the member but what is more important the domestics in this province will find this government is prepared to move ahead in a way that will be quite satisfactory to them.

Ms. Gigantes: I think the minister misunderstands what we mean by addressing the problem. We do not mean endless chat and meetings. We mean getting some legislation before this House that will provide basic, minimum worker protection for this large group of helpless workers. It is my understanding that in the fall the minister promised Intercede we would have legislation before Christmas. When are we going to have the legislation?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: There is going to be a change in regulation 283, rather than necessarily having legislation, as soon as we are ready to proceed. I assure the member the work in this area is active and ongoing, as it is in a great many other areas. We are attempting to bring this matter forward.

The government believes the situation faced by domestics over the years of the previous government's administration was in many respects unfair and, in a sense, discriminatory compared to that faced by other workers. The specific solutions are still under discussion. We will attempt to move these discussions ahead as quickly as possible.

Mr. Gillies: The minister will know that many domestics are part-time workers and are among the vast pool of part-time labourers in the province that does not, for the most part, have benefits or pensions. When will the minister move on the issue of prorated benefits and pension plans for part-time workers where such schemes are in place for the full-time workers?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I am not sure that is a supplementary question. The matter of pensions and benefits for domestics is part of the review.

HIGHWAY EXTENSION

Mr. Shymko: My question is for the Minister of Transportation and Communications and concerns the southerly extension of Highway 400. As he will recall, that was an important issue in the municipal election. It continues today to be an important issue, instilling fear and concern among residents of west Toronto, particularly in High Park-Swansea, because of its unanswered state.

Will the minister go on record, as our former government did in 1975, by stating categorically there will be no funding by this government for such an extension or for any future proposals for an extension of Highway 400?

Hon. Mr. Fulton: I thank the member for his question. Only this morning, I was flying over that area with CFRB taking a look at that and at a number of other opportunities or challenges. To answer the member's question, we have no immediate plans -- we have no plans to fund the southerly extension of Highway 400.

10:50 a.m.

Mr. Shymko: Instead of flying around, the minister should listen to the statements by Metro Roads Commissioner Sam Cass, who said it is only a question of funding from the province, as well as statements made by the mayor of York who said on January 29, 1985, that what he wants to see is a road such as Décarie Boulevard in Montreal, a six-lane throughway, going down Parkside Drive to the Gardiner Expressway. These are statements made by a prominent municipal official and the Metro roads commissioner.

Has the ministry met with Metro and discussed such proposals, particularly those related to the commissioner's statements and those of the mayor of York, so these fears are dispelled?

Hon. Mr. Fulton: In the absence of the roadway, I felt it was appropriate to fly over the location this morning.

With great respect to the Metro roads commissioner, he does not speak for this government. I meet on a regular basis with Metro Chairman Flynn. I have not met with Mr. Cass on this issue or on any other since I left Metro council.

Mr. Rae: Since Black Creek Drive ends in York South at Weston Road, is the minister prepared to make a categorical statement to Mr. Flynn? Quite apart from the remarks made by Mayor Tonks and Sam Cass, it is Dennis Flynn who has set the momentum again for an extension of Highway 400 by saying he has a task force going with respect to northwest Metro.

Is the minister prepared to state categorically on behalf of the government to Metro Chairman Flynn that there is no funding for another superhighway in Metropolitan Toronto; that there will be no more expressways in the west end of Toronto funded by the provincial government? Is the minister prepared to make that statement? If not, why not?

Hon. Mr. Fulton: The member is aware that Mr. Flynn was addressing the needs of the northwest section of Metropolitan Toronto and was not specifically addressing Black Creek Drive or any other roadway. Mr. Flynn is aware of the position of this government that we are not funding any expressways in Metropolitan Toronto.

ELECTROSHOCK THERAPY

Mr. Reville: My question is for the Minister of Health. I am sure he shares my concern that physicians have administered 40,000 electroshock treatments to the brains of Ontario residents since the then Minister of Health, the Honourable Keith Norton, appointed Mr. Clark to review the matter.

Will the minister share with the House today his plans for the review and possible implementation of the recommendations of the report of the Electro-convulsive Therapy Review Committee?

Hon. Mr. Elston: I spoke recently with the member about the report. Nothing has been finalized although, as I indicated to him privately yesterday, we have indications we will have people in place to review the report in the next two weeks. On the release of the report and its provisions to the public, I gave it to the groups concerned about its tardiness earlier than is normally the case because I felt it was necessary to get it out.

We ourselves have not yet finished our overall examination or review of the report. As I told the member yesterday -- and my position has not changed -- in the next couple of weeks we will be able to be more specific about how we analyse the results of the report.

Mr. Reville: I commend the minister for tabling the report so quickly after he received it, but I would like him to assure the House that, in view of the fact at least one of the groups, the Ontario Coalition to Stop Electroshock, is concerned about possible biases the authors of the report may have, he will make sure to include that particular group in his consultations about the recommendations included in the report.

Hon. Mr. Elston: Members of my ministry and I are looking for objective reviews of the report's findings. I know the group that held the press conference yesterday has a particular point of view and that will be taken into account. I can also tell members I have received a number of letters that are to some degree in opposition to the point of view expressed yesterday by that group. They are from people who have received the treatment and who feel it not only was of assistance but also actually saved their lives.

When we review the report, we have to keep in mind not only the information from the group that held its press conference yesterday but also the feelings and findings of individuals in this province who feel the treatment was not only of benefit but also of a life-saving nature to them. We will include the thoughts and concerns of the group that had its press conference yesterday, but it will not be the exclusive group we will receive input from when we review this material.

Mr. Pope: When will the minister make his final decision? What will the date be?

Hon. Mr. Elston: We have not finished the review of the report. All I can say is that in the next couple of weeks we will be giving information on how we propose to do the examination. As I indicated, we released the report about December 17.

Mr. Pope: Just say when.

Hon. Mr. Elston: I do not know because we have not finished our review of the report, but it may be that --

Mr. Breaugh: Say "in the fullness of time."

Hon. Mr. Elston: It may not be that full. The member for Cochrane South (Mr. Pope) may be indicating that he would like to know when his resumé needs to be submitted to the Minister of Health so he can help spearhead the review. If that is the case, I will be pleased to receive his resumé and will examine it.

Very seriously, this report has been long awaited. It was originally scheduled to be brought in last October. There were logistical problems that caused its delay. We are working as quickly as we can because we recognize the serious nature of the concerns expressed by the member for Riverdale (Mr. Reville). We will be moving as quickly as we can. I hope we will have more information within the next couple of weeks.

ASSISTED HOUSING

Mr. Guindon: My question is for the Minister of Housing. Cornwall is suffering from an acute shortage of assisted housing and the mushrooming waiting list is now at a critical stage. Figures released to me last month from the Cornwall and Area Housing Authority show that for the month of November the authority managed to place only 16 seniors, families and physically handicapped persons. There are currently 416 applications on the active priority list. Of these, there are 233 with more than 120 points who require immediate housing.

Is the minister going to provide immediate housing relief for the people of Cornwall and area?

Hon. Mr. Curling: As time goes on, the member will hear more and more about the things we inherited. As soon as our programs are in place, there will be less and less of this situation. The program we have in place will address those issues. Many areas of Ontario show an acute shortage of affordable housing for people who need proper accommodation. We are directing our efforts to adjusting those problems.

Mr. Guindon: Cornwall has the highest number of families waiting for assisted housing in the entire province.

Mr. Rae: They got there after May 2.

Mr. Guindon: I was not the member last time. It has the highest number of senior citizens on the waiting list in all eastern Ontario. Only 27 units were added in 1984 to the provincial convert-to-rent program. Cornwall needs about 400 units now to solve this desperate situation. Where does the minister expect 154 seniors to be housed for the rest of the winter or for all of next year?

Hon. Mr. Curling: I cannot believe what I am hearing. It sounds as if the situation were created about three months ago. This was an accumulation of neglect on the part of the previous government. The member stands there and asks me how I am going to resolve it in this very short time. We will address this matter in a much more effective way, and on a long-term basis, than the previous government did in the past.

11 a.m.

Mr. McClellan: I will be charitable and just ask a question. The minister announced a very ambitious housing supply program in December, which is the first provincial program we have had since 1978. Can the minister tell us whether he is now in a position to receive proposal calls from municipal nonprofit and co-operative nonprofit housing developers?

Hon. Mr. Curling: I thank the member very much for the question. In a very short time, we will be receiving --

Mr. McClellan: When?

Hon. Mr. Curling: By the end of this month.

SUSPENSION OF STUDENT

Mr. Allen: I have a question for the Minister of Education, who will recall that in early December I put a question to him and that he was investigating the case of Jake Jamieson, a native Indian student. He is a member of a family that belongs to the traditional longhouse religion. He was suspended, either formally or informally, depending upon the story -- it is difficult to get entirely to the heart of some of it -- for refusing to stand for the singing of O Canada in his school. Will the minister inform the House what he has discovered in that case and what he has done with respect to it?

Hon. Mr. Conway: I want to thank the honourable member for drawing that matter to my attention. I have completed the investigation. I have prepared some correspondence, which I have signed and directed to his attention.

As the member knows, the regulations under the Education Act permit a student to withdraw from any part of the opening exercises. That should have happened in the situation to which the honourable member makes reference. We have notified the school authorities in the area and also taken the additional measure of notifying, through a memorandum, all directors of education in Ontario precisely what the law and the practice have been in this province for 40 years. We expect that practice and law will be followed.

I can assure the member his concern has been addressed and I am quite confident the matter to which he has directed our attention will not occur again.

Mr. Allen: I think it is most important that the minister, through his directive, has stated quite clearly that in an Ontario committed to freedom of religion and primacy of conscience a forced conscience is of no benefit to our community, our province or our country.

Has he also satisfied himself that the professional training of every teacher in this province includes the study of the characteristic beliefs of religious minorities that impact upon the educational practice of teachers in Ontario, and can he assure us no principal is ever appointed to a school unless he has some demonstrated understanding of the minorities in his school district?

Hon. Mr. Conway: In recognition of the growing multicultural and pluralistic nature of our Ontario, I am very determined that the educational leadership in this province will continue in the 1980s and 1990s to do what it has done in the past, and that is to properly and sensitively reflect that reality. I am confident that is being done.

I want to assure the member, whose sensitivity and own feeling on this subject I respect very greatly, that this is going to be something that will be positively reinforced, not just through the memorandum that has been sent from my office to the directors of education, but through other initiatives I am undertaking, such as the provincial conference on race and ethnocultural relations which will be held in Toronto in a couple of months' time.

I agree absolutely with the member and I reflect the view of the Premier (Mr. Peterson) and leader of this government that we must in very sensitive areas such as education ensure in all respects that the pluralism and the multicultural strength and reality of Ontario in the latter part of the 20th century is not just recognized but nurtured and respected in all regards.

VISITORS

Mr. Andrewes: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I am sure members would want to welcome to the House today His Worship Jim Marino, Lord Mayor of Niagara-on-the-Lake, who is seated in the government members' gallery; and Kevin Ashe, a former government employee, now trustee of the Durham Region Roman Catholic Separate School Board.

MOTION

COMMITTEE SITTING

Hon. Mr. Nixon moved that the standing committee on the Ombudsman be authorized to meet following routine proceedings on Monday, January 13, 1986.

Motion agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

THIRD READINGS

The following bills were given third reading on motion:

Bill 43, An Act to authorize the Raising of Money on the Credit of the Consolidated Revenue Fund;

Bill 44, An Act to amend the Small Business Development Corporations Act.

House in committee of supply.

ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT AND MINES

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I am pleased to present the 1985-86 estimates of the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines.

I should explain that these estimates reflect only the northern development side of the ministry, or what was the former Ministry of Northern Affairs. Naturally, I inherited many commitments already made when I assumed the portfolio in June.

I will be addressing the mines and minerals responsibilities of my portfolio in these remarks and I will be prepared to answer any questions in this area. However, since the printed estimates of the Ministry of Natural Resources --

Mr. Wildman: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman: I am sorry to interrupt the minister, but I wonder whether he has a copy of his opening statement for the critics.

Mr. Chairman: I think it is coming.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: The House leaders have agreed that the actual votes will take place during the review of the ministry on the mines issue.

In many ways, the presentation of these estimates is a turning point for me, for this government and for the north. This is my first portfolio as a cabinet minister. There is a new government at Queen's Park and we have a new ministry for the north with a new mandate for the economic and social development of northern Ontario.

Je suis un nouveau à Queen's Park, mais je ne suis pas un nouveau dans la vie publique ou dans la vie politique. En tant qu'ancien maire de Hearst et homme d'affaires, j'ai beaucoup d'expérience en négociation et en raccordement des intérêts divergents. Je sais aussi ce qu'il faut faire pour rencontrer la paie de ses employés. Et surtout, comme j'ai passé ma vie dans la région du Nord, je crois bien comprendre les réalités de la vie dans le Nord de l'Ontario.

La vie dans le Nord de l'Ontario est très différente de celle du Sud. Je pense que c'est là le point principal que les habitants du Nord essaient de faire comprendre aux autres citoyens de la province.

11:10 a.m.

The north is different in its size, its history, its cultural makeup, its climate, its geography and its economic character. Half of Ontario's natives and a third of its francophones live in northern Ontario. Almost one third of Ontario's municipalities with populations under 2,500 are located in the north. Many of these are communities dependent on the extraction or harvesting of a single resource for their livelihood.

The north's mining and forest industries account for more than $7 billion annually in production and more than 30 per cent of Ontario's exports. However, the north's dependence on these resources means its economy is a fragile one. It is affected not only by world market shifts in the value of the mineral and forest products commodities it produces, but also by basic natural factors such as the quality and quantity of these resources. In the case of timber, the dangers are overharvesting, fire, insects, disease and, more recently, the threat of trade barriers.

Today the north is a region in transition. Growth in demand for its mineral resources has declined along with its share of the world market for such metals as nickel, zinc and copper. Many countries compete in the export market for sales of pulp and paper and other wood products. In the case of many commodities, such as iron ore, not only is the north's share of the pie shrinking, but the pie itself is getting smaller.

At the same time, pressure to remain competitive in the metals and forest products markets has forced the north's mills and mines to improve productivity. The result has been a loss of jobs and a reduction in economic benefits to the region. Nevertheless, these industries have succeeded in moderating employment losses to some extent while maintaining their share of the markets in which they compete.

More than 30 per cent of the north's work force is in the resource industries. More than 70 per cent of the region's manufacturing jobs depend on them. In recent years, the cyclical nature of these industries has been worsened by world market trends, namely, falling prices and reduced demand.

The north was hit very hard by the recession. In 1980 the unemployment rate in northeastern Ontario was eight per cent. By 1984 this had almost doubled to 14.9 per cent. If one figures in the increase in the welfare rolls, one will be surprised because it is more than 14.9 per cent. In the northwest during the same period, the rate jumped from 7.2 per cent to 9.4 per cent. However, unemployment rates do not tell the whole story. The welfare costs to municipalities have increased dramatically. That is why we should take the two together, and then one would be surprised. I am sure it would be close to 18 per cent.

Only about 60 per cent of the north's population is now in the labour force. That is not because the people do not like to work; it is because the continuing lack of jobs discourages many from trying to get work. From my own experience, I know northern people are hard workers. They are independent and entrepreneurial and they want to stay in the region. They will not move away from the north unless there is no alternative.

However, it increasingly appears that our young people are moving away. The 1981 census showed the smallest five-year increase in population in the north since the Second World War. Current figures show this trend is continuing. As the number of young people in the north declines, we are seeing an increasing proportion of elderly people. These demographic changes are placing increased demands on our health and social services.

Northerners are more and more unwilling to accept as normal the economic uncertainties produced by the boom-and-bust cycles common to resource economies. They rightly demand greater economic stability and diversification, such as that enjoyed in the southern part of the province.

Voilà la situation dont j'ai hérité en tant que ministre du Développement du Nord et des Mines. Il serait facile d'être pessimiste à propos des moyens qu'on a pour effectuer de vrais changements, mais nous croyons justement qu'il y a des moyens efficaces et de nouvelles approches possibles pour fortifier l'économie du Nord.

Depuis que nous sommes au pouvoir, nous avons fait de nombreux plaidoyers encourageant le développement du Nord. Nous avons dit que nous ouvririons de nouvelles avenues à la participation du public. Notre engagement repose sur la pleine participation des gens et des citoyens du Nord, de sorte qu'ils aient aussi leur mot à dire.

Pour cela, nous voulons agir de concert avec les gens concernés par les décisions qui seront prises. Le gouvernement mettra l'emphase sur la création d'une nouvelle richesse dans le Nord de l'Ontario. Il nous faut créer de nouvelles ouvertures économiques et prendre encore bien soin de protéger celles qui existent déjà.

Comme je l'ai indiqué plus tôt, le Nord génère une grande partie de la richesse de l'Ontario. Le gros défi est celui de trouver de nouveaux moyens de retenir une plus grande partie de cette richesse dans le Nord. Pour cela, il faut fortifier et encourager les industries en place, spécialement celles qui utilisent des ressources de base et des matières premières et qui constituent l'épine dorsale de l'économie du Nord. En même temps, il faut prendre des initiatives qui vont nous permettre de diversifier notre économie autour de ces industries de base.

In our policy platform we stated our intention to encourage mining in Ontario. To do that, we created a new ministry with specific responsibilities for that area.

We stressed the importance of first-class health care for all. We followed through with a plan to provide assistance to northerners for medically necessary travel. We will guard against any drop in services and any threat to equal access to basic health services for those who need them.

We announced changes in the budget to help small business in the north. Increased incentive grants and reduced threshold capital requirements under the small business development program should help to promote new business in the north. We also created the cabinet committee on northern development and the five-year, $100-million development fund. All of these areas are of critical importance to the north. We have taken on the responsibility of addressing any issues that traditionally have been either unheard or misunderstood.

Many of these issues were addressed by the Royal Commission on the Northern Environment, headed by Mr. Fahlgren. As members know, I have already reported to the House on the review process for this report. I want to emphasize that the government does not view the report's recommendations as requiring immediate "yes," "no" or "maybe" answers.

In the first place, many of its recommendations have already received attention in current programs. For example, an independent audit of Ontario's forest resource inventory is already under way by Dr. Baskerville.

Mr. Wildman: The minister does not really believe that.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I believe it because I checked yesterday, and it is not that bad. We are going to discuss that later.

As well, a new policy regarding the provision of Ontario crown land and access to resources in the Nishnawbe-Aski nation was recently announced. I will have more to say on this theme later. The creation of a separate ministry for mines was a recommendation of the Fahlgren report, and the creation of regional development councils certainly addresses a recommendation in the report for more public participation in policy-making for the north.

In the second place, many other recommendations must be considered in the larger context of northern development, and they will be.

Notre gouvernement reconnaît le caractère unique et spécial du Nord de l'Ontario. J'ai déjà fait part à la Chambre de certaines de nos actions passées, entre autres la formation du Comité ministériel sur le développement du Nord et le Comité pour les communautés dépendantes d'une ressource. Des initiatives toutes nouvelles seront communiquées à la Chambre dans les prochains mois.

J'aimerais aborder maintenant la question des initiatives spécifiques dont le gouvernement actuel est l'auteur.

Tout d'abord, nous sommes en train de mettre en place un nouveau ministère consacré tout spécialement au Nord. En novembre, le nom est passé de ministère des Affaires du Nord à celui de ministère du Développement du Nord et des Mines, nom qui met l'emphase sur le développement du Nord et le développement minier.

Le transfert de ces responsabilités minières, qui faisaient partie intégrante du ministère des Richesses naturelles, n'est pas facile. Mais les discussions que j'ai pu avoir jusqu'à maintenant avec les représentants des diverses industries m'ont prouvé la pertinence de ce changement, puisqu'il a été très bien accueilli par eux.

Le personnel de mon ministère et celui du ministère des Richesses naturelles ont travaillé très fort pour tout mettre en place lors du passage entre nos mains des nouvelles responsabilités, passage qui se fera de manière officielle le premier avril prochain.

En décembre, j'ai annoncé la mise en place d'une nouvelle Division des mines et des minerais, dirigée par un sous-ministre adjoint. À partir du premier avril, nous aurons une nouvelle Division sur le développement minéralogique en place pour le Nord-Ouest de l'Ontario, avec un bureau-chef à Kenora, et un autre pour le Nord-Est à Timmins.

11:20 a.m.

As part of these changes, the assistant deputy minister for northern development will move from Kenora to Thunder Bay. He will be very heavily involved with the deputy minister and myself in developing new initiatives. The Thunder Bay location is much better in terms of accessibility to northerners and my access to him. I can assure members, however, that the Kenora or Rainy River region will continue to be well served by the ministry. We intend to do better not only for Kenora and Rainy River but also for everywhere in the north.

Le changement de nom du ministère n'est pas seulement un symbole. Ce n'est que le premier pas d'un gouvernement déterminé à créer une focalisation toute spéciale sur le développement du Nord et une voix délibérément engagée à l'intérieur du Cabinet à s'occuper de plus en plus fortement de l'industrie minière. Nous voyons l'industrie minière comme l'industrie de l'avenir. En fait, elle est déjà l'une des pierres angulaires de l'économie du Nord et de celle de l'Ontario.

An important initiative announced with the creation of the new ministry was the establishment of a cabinet committee on northern development. This committee, of which I am chairman, will be an important part of the process I described earlier in allowing northerners more opportunities to affect the decision-making process.

The committee will meet periodically to review new ideas and initiatives for economic development in the north. I will be taking its members north from time to time so they may gain a better understanding of the region and to allow the people of the north to make their views known to the highest level of government.

Membership in the committee includes the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Kerrio), the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology (Mr. O'Neil), the Minister of Tourism and Recreation (Mr. Eakins), the Minister of Skills Development (Mr. Sorbara), the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Riddell) and the Attorney General (Mr. Scott). Other ministers will participate depending on the subject under discussion.

The cabinet committee on northern development will also advise on the $100-million northern development fund. With these new moneys in my ministry budget, the government will be able to pursue special opportunities in support of job creation in the north. These initiatives are the first steps by the new government to demonstrate its commitment to the economic and social development of northern Ontario, but more is needed.

As we enter a new year, it is time to take a fresh look at the challenges I described earlier. As a new administration, we want to do this in a way that avoids ad hoc, piecemeal approaches. We must get away from parochial, localized development and start working together as a region. For me, the region is the entire north. Most important, we have to recognize the challenges that face the north are fundamentally economic in nature. We must deal with them accordingly.

I have talked about some initiatives of the new government. Now I will describe some of the specific programs or projects developed by my ministry. If we are to provide a broader and more effective basis for government action in the north, we must develop mechanisms that will allow this to happen.

One of the ways we will do this is by establishing eight or nine regional development councils, with one or more for the more remote areas north of the 51st parallel. These councils will advise me, the cabinet committee on northern development and other ministries, as appropriate, on regional economic issues, opportunities and concerns. They will act as a sounding board, providing feedback on the potential impact of proposed new government policies, programs and initiatives.

They will provide input from a regional perspective, but will not replace or duplicate the efforts of other organizations in the north that are providing advice from a sectoral perspective. By focusing and distilling input from different groups, the RDCs will provide a more effective mechanism for targeting growth opportunities at the regional and subregional levels.

With the establishment of these councils, the current municipal advisory committees will be phased out. However, representatives of the various municipalities will still have an opportunity to participate in the RDCs and through other existing municipal organizations. The councils will also have representation from labour, business, education and major economic sectors.

Part of the philosophy behind the establishment of these councils is to reduce the red tape and give more clout to northerners. We are trying hard to cut down the shouting distance to Queen's Park.

Mr. Wildman: Is the minister going to get rid of red ties too?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Yes.

Another step we have taken to give northerners more control over their own economy is the creation of the committee on resource-dependent communities. The committee, under the chairmanship of Bob Rosehart, president of Lakehead University, will examine the whole phenomenon of single-resource-industry communities and examine options to deal with their special circumstances.

It is important we all understand that the life of a mine is finite and that its wealth will be exhausted some day. Similarly, there is no certainty that a pulp and paper or lumber mill can continue in operation for ever. The committee will report to me on practices that appear to work for other jurisdictions. It is a difficult challenge, but one that must be addressed for the north.

I have described some of the philosophy and approaches we are bringing to bear on our new responsibilities. Now I would like to explain how these affect key parts of my ministry's mandate.

Premièrement, examinons de près le cas de l'industrie minière, qui est vue par le gouvernement actuel comme une industrie dune importance critique au bien-être de la province en général et du Nord en particulier.

Mining development in the province has been caught by declining world prices for metals. The outlook for metals other than gold, silver and platinum is not encouraging. Some of the base metals may never regain their prominence. However, finds like the Hemlo discoveries have been a real shot in the arm for that part of the north and the province. Gold is still the bright spot in mineral production in Ontario. At the end of 1985, its value of production for the year was around $500 million. Obviously, we need more Hemlos.

Mining has always been a cyclical industry. However, its ups and downs have been particularly pronounced over the past few years. Neither the industry itself nor the government can do much to flatten out these hills and valleys.

The mineral industry has been taking steps to remain competitive in world markets and to improve its productivity. Government too has an interest in a strong mineral industry. We are planning a number of policy and program changes to support this important industry and to attract new development and investment in this sector.

A major issue is the mining tax structure under Ontario's Mining Tax Act. The present graduated tax structure places some heavy burdens on a cyclical industry. In the recent budget, the government proposed new legislation for a flat mining tax. Discussions are continuing with the industry and others on ways and means of encouraging investment in exploration and processing in Ontario.

The Ministry of Northern Development and Mines will also examine, with the help of the industry, ways to improve the financing climate for Ontario's junior mining companies. The recent introduction of the Canadian over-the-counter automated trading system for reporting trading in unlisted securities is a welcome step in the right direction.

I am also very interested in an industry proposal to simplify prospectus applications and reduce the costs of securing venture capital.

I am aware that changes in the Mining Act are also high on the list of the industry's priorities. Bill 29 had its first reading last spring after a review period of 14 years. That is a long time to wait for anything. Of course, as a new government, we had to take a fresh look at the act. We had to take into account all the interests that will be affected by changes to it.

We are having discussions with the industry about this important piece of legislation. These discussions are very helpful to me and strengthen my view that the industry and the province are ready for more modern legislation in this area, legislation that reflects the realities of the 1980s in this province.

Both the industry and this government would rather do it right and not hurry through something that might not be the best we can produce. So many changes seem to be required, it might be better to let Bill 29 die on Orders and Notices and introduce new legislation early in the next session.

11:30 a.m.

I am also aware that there is some concern about the regulations governing ore processing in Canada. I understand many companies would prefer that these regulations be forgotten. However, our intention is to encourage increased processing of our ores in Canada. We will not be doing this in a heavy-handed fashion. Rather, we will examine each request exemption having regard for the impact on jobs in Ontario and on the economy as a whole. The government intends to deal with each situation in a fair and reasonable manner.

There is also increased interest in having more complete and usable mineral data available for public use. My staff will be working closely with industry and our own field offices to increase the access and improve the usefulness of our files on mineral statistics, economics and geoscience information. We are also examining ways to improve our databases so that when a question is asked, we will be able to come up with an answer tailored specifically to the user's requirements.

Our aim is to improve access to information relevant to the minerals industry and thus improve and promote the mineral development opportunities that exist in this province.

The Ontario geological survey of the new mines and minerals division of my ministry has long provided geoscience information to those interested in the mineral potential of this province. It has an excellent reputation in its field, and we will be looking to the OGS to develop new initiatives designed to stimulate regional or community development opportunities connected with mining.

The recently signed Canada-Ontario mineral development agreement is another co-operative venture to assist the mineral industry. The agreement will allow new geological information to be obtained around communities in high-mineral-potential areas. It will also improve access to ministry mineral information files and assist the growth of Ontario's industrial minerals industry.

Mr. Davis: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman: I believe there is no quorum.

Mr. Chairman ordered the bells rung.

11:36 a.m.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Under the agreement, we intend to work co-operatively with mining companies to develop information to improve their efficiency and productivity.

The Ministry of Northern Development and Mines also intends to continue providing direct support for mineral exploration. This is something we currently do through the Ontario mineral exploration program. OMEP has levered private sector expenditures of more than $30 million in fiscal year 1984-85 at a cost to government of $6.4 million. We know this program can be improved, and we intend to undertake a major review at an early date. There will be extensive consultation with the industry and other interested parties.

It is interesting to note that the Hemlo discoveries were made by three junior mining companies. Junior mining, although an important element in new mining discoveries, has gone into relative decline in Ontario. Clearly, any support we can give to this part of the industry is going to encourage future exploration and, we hope, lead to more success stories.

It is my intention to see that mining has a higher and more positive profile in this province. It is important that the general public be made aware of the value of mining to our economy. They should understand that mining is a large industry with unique problems, operating in an environment quite different from that affecting industries in the rest of the province. They should also understand how important the industry is as a generator of wealth for this province and jobs in the north.

My ministry has overall responsibility for Ontario's mining interests, and we take that responsibility very seriously, but now I would like to look at other areas of interest. Some are the line responsibility of other ministries, but the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines is involved in many areas because of their importance in northern Ontario.

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: They are very interested. Whether or not they are going to talk, they want to talk. Ring the bells again, Mr. Chairman, to make them shut up for a while.

Le rôle de mon ministère est de s'assurer que le Nord reçoit la portion des avantages sociaux et économiques qui lui revient. Voici comment nous définissons notre rôle et cette priorité:

Nous devons agir en tant qu'avocat et coordonnateur de certaines activités, en utilisant la persuasion lorsque cela est nécessaire et lorsque nous estimons que certaines actions doivent avoir lieu;

Il nous faut subventionner la partie restante des programmes et des services de toute première importance pour les gens du Nord;

Il nous faut aussi subventionner pleinement certains programmes où, sans notre implication directe, les communautés du Nord ne verraient pas leurs besoins satisfaits.

11:40 a.m.

Je fus frappé du fait que le comité en place sur les affaires en procédure croyait que dans plusieurs situations, la planification et la mise en place de programmes gouvernementaux ou de services dans le Nord reposaient sur le précepte que les problèmes du Nord sont les mêmes que les problèmes du Sud, de sorte que mon ministère prend position vis-à-vis de cette perspective en défendant une nouvelle approche aux problèmes spécifiques du Nord, tout en trouvant des solutions pour la résolution de ceux-ci.

Le secteur des transports est un secteur de l'activité où mon ministère détient une responsabilité majeure. Quatre-vingt-dix pour cent du territoire de l'Ontario est constitué par le Nord. L'importance des voies de transport est donc capitale sur une si grande étendue de terrain. Nous essayons de satisfaire ces besoins d'infrastructure à travers notre programme des transports dans le Nord. Ce programme comprend à la fois les routes, les services aériens et les services maritimes de la Commission de transport du Nord de l'Ontario, qui est rattachée à notre ministère.

Un réseau routier adéquat est au centre du développement social et économique dans le Nord. Le montant alloué pour les routes du Nord par le ministère prend une large part de notre budget. Cela est dû au climat rigoureux et au terrain accidenté du Nord, qui causent toutes sortes de détériorations du système routier. Il résulte de cela une foule de réparations et de constructions de nouvelles routes qui doivent être opérées. C'est une grande priorité.

Mon ministère fournit les subventions et établit les priorités relatives à l'amélioration et à l'aménagement de nouvelles routes dans le réseau routier du Nord. Le ministère des Transports et des Communications s'occupe des plans et de la mise en chantier.

Plusieurs variables doivent être prises en considération lorsqu'il faut prévoir les besoins futurs en matière de transports. L'approche du gouvernement est de revoir les structures existantes et d'encourager la participation du public lors des propositions de changement.

Dans le domaine des routes, du transport ferroviaire, maritime et du transport aérien, le but premier du ministère est d'offrir un niveau adéquat de services pour les habitants du Nord, car nous avons un bon jugement de ce que doit être le rôle de l'industrie privée dans le Nord. Nous avons aussi en vue les nouvelles politiques et les changements de celles-ci par le gouvernement fédéral en matière de transport.

The Ontario Northland Transportation Commission is a major player in the north's transportation system. We have begun with the ONTC a comprehensive and objective review of its role and responsibilities. This will lead to recommendations and proposals for providing the most efficient service possible. We are looking at maintaining and improving air, rail, ferry and bus services, recognizing the importance of working with the private sector.

We are currently reviewing options for improving air service in northern Ontario, including the deployment of the Dash-8. In this review, we are taking into account the recommendations of the task force on northwest Dash-8 service. We are considering such matters as subsidy levels and compatibility with other norOntair services as well as those provided by the private sector. Any recommendations will recognize the importance this government places on maintaining high-quality local and feeder air services for northern Ontario.

Next, I would like to draw the attention of members to tourism. Many consider it to be the growth industry of the future. To quote the standing committee on procedural affairs, however, "What appears to be lacking is a concentrated and co-ordinated effort by the government of Ontario, in conjunction with the people of Ontario, to devise a tourist strategy." I agree strongly with this, as I am sure does my colleague the Minister of Tourism and Recreation.

Tourism will be an important topic on the agenda of our regional development councils. The world tourism industry is growing fast and we vow to make sure Ontario increases its market share. To do that, the industry has to keep pace with the market shifts and ensure a quality experience for visitors. Tourist demands are changing and the industry is having to change too. Tourism approaches that were acceptable in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s may not be adequate in the 1980s and 1990s.

I am aware that the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation has prime responsibility for tourism in Ontario as a whole, but my ministry has a role in supporting its northern efforts. That is because tourism, important as it is for Ontario as a whole, is especially important for the north. Any industry that provides direct and indirect employment for 42,000 people and total annual incomes of nearly $1 billion must be taken seriously. When those figures apply to a region traditionally dependent on mining and forestry, one has to pay attention.

Our approach to tourism will be in line with the consultative philosophy of this government. Throughout the north there are many players on the tourism stage and we want to hear from them all.

A major priority is getting some basic standards in the areas of signage and travel information. We intend to work closely with the Ministry of Natural Resources, the Ministry of Transportation and Communications and the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation to develop a better system of informing the traveller. At present, signage in the north differs from community to community. Visitors to the north sometimes have real difficulty getting the information they need. What we need is some uniformity, while maintaining a sense of community.

In the area of tourist information centres, there is much to be done. There is a need for a more co-ordinated approach to make them more effective, more visible and more useful.

We have to find ways of drawing more people to the north and persuading them to stay there a little longer. We may have to put more walkways around natural waterfalls and more viewing areas overlooking our magnificent canyons, and provide better access to our natural attractions. It may mean building more trail signs or interpretive areas to identify the local flora and fauna or Indian rock paintings.

In addition, the northern Ontario regional development program is available to assist tourist operators to develop or expand their marketing programs. This provides valuable support to a part of the industries made up of many private, individual groups.

Le ministère prête aussi assistance aux efforts de mise en marché du Nord en renforçant la présence du Nord lors des salons ou des expositions sportives ayant rapport avec les voyages touristiques, en créant des brochures et des pamphlets et aussi à travers l'organisme l'Ontario à l'heure du Nord. Nous allons nous appuyer sur les chances de développement industriel lorsque nous allons concentrer nos efforts.

La clé du tourisme dans le Nord consiste à maximiser le potentiel économique de la région, à reconnaître que ses atouts sont ses grands espaces, son air pur et son eau pure et, bien sûr, sa beauté naturelle. De manière évidente, le tourisme peut assurément contribuer de manière significative à la croissance dans le Nord.

The issues of adequate health care, social services and education are high among my ministry's concerns. Working closely with the responsible ministries, we are looking at more effective ways of providing better access to these services in the north.

In some small communities, an ageing population and a shortage of medical professionals has been a problem. Providing services to these areas is both difficult and expensive. For example, the north has about one third the number of specialists per person as the rest of the province, so there is a major imbalance to be corrected.

Unless facilities in these smaller centres are of the highest level, specialists are difficult to attract. They have preferred the better-equipped hospitals and clinics in the south. Substantial strides have been made to improve this situation but there is still a long way to go. Until facilities and incentives are improved, this trend will go unchecked to the detriment of the people of the north.

One of this government's recent initiatives is providing medical travel assistance for those in northern communities. This is evidence of our belief that all northerners are entitled to financial assistance where they have to travel more than 300 kilometres one way from their home for special medical care.

Another major concern is the provision of more community-based public health services. As a ministry we are supporting a number of new projects, including extended care facilities in smaller centres for seniors who can no longer live in their homes. These are being funded through the extended care capital assistance program, EldCap.

11:50 a.m.

Under this program, facilities are already under construction in Atikokan and Dryden. Others are planned for Geraldton, Rainy River, Sioux Lookout, Matheson and Smooth Rock Falls. Construction on all of these is expected to begin during the next three years.

Since I have been in office, I have approved funding for EldCap facilities in Wawa, Blind River and Hornepayne. I am also looking for early approval of the Chapleau facility.

Mr. Pierce: What about the northwest?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Look at the other list. It is going to be in the next year or so.

Mr. Pierce: No, this year.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: The member knows it is coming. He should not argue on this one. These were bypassed for four years; that is the reason I have to give them. Look at the record.

We also support a Ministry of Health plan to fund a group of about 50 specialists who will be given an incentive to work in the north, travel the region and serve the special needs of the people. The idea is to enable northerners to receive specialized care without having to travel.

These are all sorely needed initiatives towards improving health care services in northern Ontario.

Dans le domaine de l'éducation, nous continuons de voir aux besoins du Nord en collaboration avec le ministère de l'Éducation. Le programme EduCap du ministère, qui offre des subventions aux écoles isolées dans le Nord, entre maintenant dans sa troisième année, et il sera bientôt révisé.

Les autres dispositions dont nous discutons avec nos collègues du ministère de l'Éducation sont celles des coopératives et de l'éducation à distance.

Personnellement, j'encourage les efforts de nos deux universités du Nord pour développer des programmes d'éducation appropriés au Nord et aux communautés diverses et présentes dans toute son étendue.

Mr. Wildman: How?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: With money.

A related concern is the need for skills development and employment opportunity programs for northern youth. In this regard, we welcomed the announcement of the Ontario Futures program by my colleague the Minister of Skills Development. Our two ministries are co-operating in ensuring that the delivery of this program in the north is done effectively.

I would now like to look at agriculture in the north. My ministry is very much aware of the difficulties facing farmers: an oversupply of some commodities, depressed prices and farm credit. But there is room for optimism. Northern Ontario has the potential to become self-sufficient in certain crops and could even become an exporter.

It may surprise many to know that the average yield per acre for cool-weather crops such as alfalfa, oats and barley is greater in the north than in other more traditional agricultural areas of the province. Timiskaming, for example, is approaching self-sufficiency in these crops and is looking closely at export markets. Expansion will have to be approached cautiously and selectively, however, given the present overproduction of some commodities.

My ministry will continue to support the five-year, $10-million AgriNorth program jointly funded with the Ministry of Agriculture and Food. It is a very worthwhile program and there have already been advances in the areas of new technology, grain and forage production, district development initiatives and marketing studies. Government assistance with grain handling and storage systems has helped farmers market their grain at a time of the year when the best prices can be realized.

However, with the present income crisis in agriculture, we are examining AgriNorth with a view to making it as sensitive as possible to the present needs of the industry in the north.

Wild rice is an area with potential for expanding output to the benefit of the native population and the people of Ontario as a whole. Several areas in the north are ideal for cultivation. To assist further development, we are continuing to support research being carried out at Lakehead University in Thunder Bay. At the same time, we must look towards ensuring future commercial viability of this important crop.

We are working closely with native groups and the ministries of Natural Resources and Agriculture and Food to see what is needed to stimulate development of the wild rice industry. My staff and I have been in contact with three native groups to discuss expanding the industry in a way that is beneficial to their communities. It is unsettling to watch the prairie provinces and parts of the United States forge ahead in producing crops when the potential is so great in northern Ontario.

Wild rice is only one area of opportunity for the north's natives. We are very concerned about the native people of northern Ontario being given every chance to take part in the economic and social development of the region.

Recently, my colleagues the Minister of Natural Resources and the Attorney General announced a new approach for Indian reserves within the Nishnawbe-Aski nation. For decades, natives in the north have had too little control over their economic future. Now they have a chance to become more self-reliant, more economically self-sufficient and, through their own efforts, initiate activities to create jobs for native people.

I intend to use part of the northern development fund to provide financial assistance for native economic development activities.

I am confident this special assistance, together with this new government's other initiatives, will lead to improved long-term employment opportunities for the native people of northern Ontario and bring long-awaited social and economic progress.

In conclusion, I want to stress that my ministry's agenda for the north seeks to provide a solid future for all its people; a future where the economic, industrial and social wellbeing is not always at the mercy of world market trends or political shuffles; a future where the north can continue to grow and contribute to this province.

Mr. Bernier: At the outset, may I point out how pleased I am to participate in the examination of the estimates of this new ministry. I just got my mind around the new name of the ministry so we will start with that. The speech the minister delivered this morning is one that could have been delivered back in 1983 or 1984. I sense the same speechwriters who wrote his speech wrote mine. I think the action we took was much more positive than what I heard in his remarks this morning.

I am pleased -- and I will go into this in detail before my remarks are over -- when I hear the minister refer to programs that we initiated, such as the Dash-8 program and the EduCap and AgriNorth programs which are still in place. The EldCap program is going to be expanded. The northern Ontario regional development program is still there. He is very supportive of these programs we brought in. There is not one new program in the 27 or 28 pages of rhetoric this morning.

We are disappointed -- and I am sure the members on this side of the House will agree with me -- with the lack of initiative and new boldness that we thought would come from this government that sat on these benches for 42 years.

I had the opportunity of hearing the Liberal critic for six or seven years expounding at great length about how terrible these programs were; how ineffective EduCap and AgriNorth would be; that the EldCap program was not working; that Nordev was a giveaway program and it should not be proceeded with. We heard that from his side of the House, and I am most pleased that the minister today has embraced those programs with enthusiasm and is charging forward to create a new quality of life in northern Ontario.

At the outset, I want to again congratulate the minister on his appointment. I do not have to remind him of the onerous responsibilities he has. He is the only government member north of Renfrew North; that is more than 90 per cent of the area for which he has to be responsible and to which he directs the affairs of his cabinet and his government.

I sense -- and I will talk about this in the hours that will follow -- his clout is not as strong as some people say it is. The amount of money he has been able to bring to his ministry is actually reduced from last year. We do not see anything in supplementary estimates, but we will get to that.

12 noon

The minister has a tremendous amount of work to do with respect to bringing the needs of northern Ontario forward to his cabinet colleagues. He will find that since 90 per cent of that cabinet is made up of southern Ontario members, their priorities will be brought forward ahead of his. He will need all the support and the muscle he can bring to that table to get his fair share, which is an increased share.

The minister can talk all he wants about studies, committees, reviews and co-operation, but if he does not have the bucks, he will have no clout. I say to the minister with sincerity that he has to have the money because money is clout. I urge him to impress that on his cabinet colleagues, particularly on the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon). I say in passing that I have watched the members of cabinet over the past several months and they are not northern-oriented. There is no question about that. Therefore, the minister's problems are going to be compounded.

I want to express my congratulations to the new deputy minister. I have not had an opportunity to meet him and I regret that the minister did not recognize him in his opening remarks. He is new to Ontario. I understand he comes from the major leagues in Ottawa and has moved to the minor leagues here. However, he comes with high credentials. I look forward to working closely with him. I know the influence and direction a deputy minister can give and bring to a ministry.

I want to direct a few remarks to the minister and the deputy with respect to the ministry itself. They have now been in power for some seven or eight months. As I travel in northern Ontario, I sense a decline in morale in the ministry. The Ministry of Northern Affairs was formed in 1977. We brought together in that ministry some of the finest people this government had in the civil service. They are knowledgeable about northern Ontario, sensitive to and conscious of what is going on there. They want to be part of the decision-making process and can provide the minister with a tremendous amount of information.

The deputy and the minister should not close their doors to their staff. They are available to them. The doors should be left open, as I and all the deputies in the Ministry of Northern Affairs used to do. It is a small ministry; it is not large. The minister cannot run a one-man show over there. He needs their help and support. They have the background, experience and knowledge to assist him in his future endeavours.

I know the minister is sincere in his efforts to do greater things for northern Ontario. However, I will say to him what his staff cannot say to him, and I am hearing it right across northern Ontario. The minister's doors are closed. It is a one-man show. He brought 10 new people into his office. One cannot get through to them. They ignore everybody else in the ministry. I plead with the minister in the interests of all of us who live in northern Ontario to take the staff into his confidence, open the doors and make them part of the ministry.

The minister does not have all the brains, clout and answers. As I said earlier, those civil servants are the finest people ever brought together in one ministry. I was extremely proud of them, and I am today, as I was in the past seven years. As one who was there and worked closely with what I know to be an excellent staff, I leave that bit of advice with the minister. I plead with the minister to use them to his maximum benefit and to the maximum benefit of all of us who live in northern Ontario. I am sure he will be pleasantly surprised at what he can achieve with their utmost co-operation.

When I was there, the staff did not work for me; it worked with me. In his new and sensitive role, and I understand he is a compassionate and sincere man, I leave that thought with him, because the staff of his ministry cannot express that point of view to him and I wanted to do it on their behalf.

I want to touch briefly on some of the general points in the minister's remarks. I have a number of specific questions I would like to leave with the minister and put in Orders and Notices, which maybe his staff could answer by the time we finish the examination of his ministry's estimates.

I am pleased we will be able to cover all aspects of the ministry, on which I am sure the critic for the third party will agree, and that the final votes will be taken at the end of the estimates period. We are in full and total agreement with that thrust.

I want to touch on a couple of items first before I get into my formal remarks. One is the recent establishment of the cabinet committee the minister announced about a week ago, the setting up of a committee to look at the problems of single-industry communities in northern Ontario. He brought into his confidence a member of the New Democratic Party, a member of our own political party and one in the Liberal Party to work with a very able chairman, Dr. Bob Rosehart of Lakehead University. It is an excellent committee.

The thrust is in the right direction, but I say it will fail. When one looks at the terms of reference, this committee has taken on the tremendous responsibility of looking in a three-month period at single-industry communities, their problems today and where they can go in the future. That is impossible, especially when the minister says in his terms of reference the committee is to visit other provinces and other countries.

I really think that is good, but if he is sincere and wants to do something for single-industry communities, I suggest he take back that order in council and bring back a new one, making it a select committee of the Legislature, possibly having the same members of this House on it, to do exactly the same thing but reporting to the Legislature, not to the Minister of Northern Development and Mines who has, for all intents and purposes, muzzled the other two political parties by putting them on this committee. They will report to the minister and he in his wisdom will accept or reject their recommendations or take them to cabinet.

In all honesty, I like the thrust. The minister is sincere in his desire to do something for single-industry communities, but if he really wants to go the whole country mile, there are studies within this government, as members will know. The library is full of studies with respect to the future of single-industry communities, done by every political party in this House, by the governments of the last 10 years and the federal government. A committee was set up between the federal government and Ontario to look at single-industry communities. This issue has come up at every national conference of ministers of northern affairs for the last several years.

It is a major issue. I urge the minister to rethink his position, go back to his cabinet colleagues and say he wants to make it worth while and not just a smoke-and-mirror thing, not something that will be glossed over in three months, but something that has teeth and that will come forward with some positive recommendations. With all due respect, the third party has been pushing this issue for a number of years. I sat on the other side of the House and grappled with it. It is not an easy one. The minister will not resolve it in a three-month period. I leave that suggestion with him.

Also, in his remarks the minister made some comments with respect to his awareness of what transportation means to northern Ontario and noted that the future of economic development is closely tied to a good transportation network, highways, rail and air services.

In the course of my formal remarks, I will question the amount of extra dollars he received for the enthusiasm he displayed in his opening remarks. I do not see them there. As I said earlier, without extra dollars the things he and I want to see happen in northern Ontario will not happen. I return to my basic suggestion that he should go back to the Treasurer and get an increase in the size of his budget.

12:10 p.m.

There is the question of the report of the standing committee on procedural affairs and agencies, boards and commissions, released a day or two ago, relating to Minaki Lodge, Old Fort William and the James Bay Educational Centre. I am sure the minister is aware of this since the centre is in his riding.

I am concerned about some of the comments made by the committee with respect to the number of visitations.

Mr. Wildman: It is an all-party committee.

Mr. Bernier: It is an all-party committee, but I do not think its members were totally agreed on the total content of the report. The recommendations were agreed to, but the general comments were not, as I am sure the minister will agree.

One comment was that there were not enough ministers visiting northern Ontario. I have seen the Minister of Northern Development and Mines and many of his cabinet colleagues moving all across the north. In our government, I had a cabinet minister in northern Ontario every month. During the 14 years I was in cabinet, I did not go a month without having a cabinet minister visit some part of northern Ontario. We made an effort to put assistant deputy ministers in the north, at Kenora -- the minister has changed that, and I will get to that -- at Thunder Bay and at Sault Ste. Marie, and regional directors in every part of northern Ontario. Seventy per cent of the Ministry of Northern Affairs was located in northern Ontario.

That comment came from members of the procedural affairs committee, some of whom had visited certain parts of northern Ontario for the first time. As I said to the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. yesterday morning, I got the feeling as I read the report that some of those members felt they had found a new world; for the first time they had visited northern Ontario. Some of those members are on my side of the House too.

The government in office now does visit northern Ontario on a regular basis, as did our government. There was a massive movement of ministerial people right across the north, visiting on a regular basis. I am glad the minister mentioned that he will move members of the Legislature into northern Ontario. That is where the weakness comes, and that kind of movement is needed. The ignorance of members of this House with respect to the problems of northern Ontario is hard to understand. It is hard to believe they are not knowledgeable about what is happening in the north.

The comments about Minaki Lodge irritate me. The minister made some comments about tourism. He knows tourism will be the number one industry by the year 2000. He also knows the private sector would never have developed Minaki Lodge. Sure, it was a risk. The government was backed into it. We did not go into it wanting to be in the resort business. Let us be honest. We were pushed into the business. We took it. We had faith in the industry and in the area, and the government put up the $23 million.

It was not the $50 million the Premier (Mr. Peterson) keeps talking about in a very irresponsible way. Maybe he did not mislead the House, but he acts very irresponsibly when he keeps talking about a $50-million public expenditure and, on the other hand, keeps saying it has no sale value. To me, it is very irresponsible for the Premier to say that when $23 million was spent.

Mr. Epp: What would the member buy it for?

Mr. Bernier: Has my friend visited Minaki Lodge? I urge him to do so. That is a typical southern Ontario comment. Because a project is 1,250 miles away, it is like a project in Halifax, Nova Scotia. That is the distance Minaki Lodge is from Toronto; it is the same distance as from Toronto to Halifax, Nova Scotia. The members on the government side have no interest in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and they have no interest in Kenora because it is that far away.

Minaki Lodge was not developed for the Toronto or southern Ontario markets. It was developed for the western Canada and mid-US markets.

Mr. Epp: How much would the member pay for it?

Mr. Bernier: I am not a buyer, but I can tell my friend we have four buyers already.

Mr. Epp: At $50 million?

Mr. Bernier: Not at $50 million; that is not what was spent to develop Minaki Lodge.

The minister in his sanctimonious way made reference this morning to tourism and how much it means to northern Ontario: the 42,000 jobs tourism takes in, the economic activity and what it does for the economy right across the north. He supports tourism. Our government did too. It did it by showing faith in that area. To the northwest, the Lake of the Woods area is as Muskoka is to southern Ontario: it is the tourist mecca of that vast area.

A lodge the size of Minaki required a major infusion of capital dollars. The private sector is not prepared to put those kinds of dollars in because of the risk. It is up to government to put up that kind of money when there is a risk factor. The government of which I was part had faith in that area and in that industry.

Mr. Epp: Would the member do it again?

Mr. Bernier: If the same situation occurred, yes.

Mr. Epp: The member would do it again.

Mr. Bernier: Do not be irresponsible now. If you want to interject, be responsible.

That $23 million was spent on refurbishing the lodge. It was spent using northwestern Ontario contractors, labour and materials. To listen to some of these people in the House, one would think the $23 million was shipped off to the moon. It was spent in northern Ontario. It created economic activity and jobs for two and a half years. It was spent right there.

Now we have a facility that is a success story. One cannot get into Minaki Lodge.

Mr. McGuigan: I cannot afford to get in. A farmer like myself cannot afford it.

Mr. Pierce: Does the member know what it costs to stay there? Does he know what it costs to spend a night in Minaki? It costs $80. It costs that much to stay in a hotel.

Mr. McGuigan: How much does it cost to get there?

Mr. Bernier: It will show a profit this year. The occupancy rate last year alone was over 85 per cent. I dare any member to try to get into Minaki Lodge in the summertime. One cannot get in because it is booked solid. It is a success story. It is the tourist mecca of northwestern Ontario. I hope the ministers of this government will take the time to spend some time at Minaki Lodge and see how beautiful it is.

It is a world-class facility. It brings $3 million to $4 million into the economy and creates 212 jobs. Is there any difference between putting $35 million into a pulp and paper mill and guaranteeing jobs there and putting $23 million into a facility that will create jobs and support and provide an industry in that area? The honourable member is losing sight of that. That is why more members of this Legislature should visit northern Ontario. I commend the minister for making that comment in his opening remarks.

Now that I have that off my chest, I will go into my formal remarks. Before I do that, I want to touch on the health travel plan to which the minister made reference and which he is pleased has been announced. I am certainly pleased the government has seen fit to bring in a program to assist those people who will require travel assistance, which is something for which we have been pressing for some considerable time.

We were on the verge of bringing in a much sweeter and more efficient program, answering the needs of northerners. The minister can stand in his place and take all kinds of credit for this program, but I think he fails to understand that the 20,000 people in the immediate Kenora area have been denied access to it because they are within the 300-kilometre area from Manitoba. They will not get one cent. Those 20,000 people on the Ontario-Manitoba border will not qualify for any assistance under this program. As a northern minister, he should know that and lean on the Minister of Health (Mr. Elston) to correct that discrepancy.

We discussed it during the estimates of the Ministry of Health. My colleague the member for Lake Nipigon (Mr. Pouliot) was there also, and we went to great length to point out to the Minister of Health the weaknesses in the program. All he would say was that the program was coming in and the government might review it some day.

I urge the minister, as one who has overall responsibility for northern Ontario, to look at that program very carefully. I hope he is aware that the first $75 is taken out and must be paid by the patient. That does not show up anywhere in the brochures; it is a hidden cost. People have to pay the first $75. Our program paid everything and it was upfront money. I leave that thought with the minister in his discussions with the Minister of Health to correct the problems that will surface in that program, because they are real problems and will affect so many people in the northwest region of this province.

12:20 p.m.

In dealing with this ministry I am still a little confused about what the name really is. I understand that, as of about a month ago, it will be officially called the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines.

When the ministry was formed back in 1977, its mandate was to co-ordinate government activities and to initiate policies and programs from which all northerners could benefit. It was created to stimulate soundly based economic development and diversification right across northern Ontario. I am sure the members present will agree the ministry has been very successful with this mandate.

I hope the new minister will build on the solid foundation the staff of his ministry has laid right across northern Ontario. Let us work to ensure that programs and services available in the south will be equalled in northern Ontario. As the minister correctly pointed out in his comments, there is still a lot of work to do. I am glad we share that sentiment.

It will also increase the awareness and the appreciation of the north by creating closer tie-ins with the rest of the province. When I look at Ontario North Now, it is a simple example of how we can better relate to and better inform and educate those people living in southern Ontario.

Nevertheless, I believe the ministry's mandate began to erode the day this new government took office. If one travels around northern Ontario, one will sense that very strong feeling. The minister should not shrug his shoulders and shake his head.

I know he goes into these small communities and gets a little audience of 25 or 30 people. He is all excited. He is new in politics. The people are there to see what this guy looks like and to hear him. However, he should send somebody back a day or two after he leaves to hear the comments they have made. I wonder how many times he gets invited back. That first brush is nice. I know politics; we have been through it. The minister should not take what they say to his face as being correct, but rather should listen to other people. The ministry's mandate is being eroded.

I am sure the members will be interested to hear the several areas of concern I have about this ministry's mandate. None the less, as I said earlier, I am a little dismayed at the lack of any new and bold initiatives, which this government was supposed to offer to the people of northern Ontario. No new policy thrusts have been given.

There has been no change. I cannot see any difference from the former ministry, quite frankly.

I followed the minister across northern Ontario right after the election as he said how great things were going to be and made all those grandiose statements. He was going to do everything. In some of the communities I went to, they referred to him as Rambo of the north, doing all these things. He is pulling back a little bit now. He is being a little more careful with some of his comments.

It appears the minister has backed off from giving the people a definite statement. Consequently, this government does not have enough confidence in itself to launch what it feels is a good northern Ontario policy. I was looking forward to seeing something different from what we had in the former government.

Mr. Wildman: So were we.

Mr. Bernier: The Liberals have the New Democratic Party with them now --

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I am cleaning up after the member. After that, I will have mine in.

Mr. Bernier: Okay. I hope the minister keeps a note.

The Liberal Party used to believe those policies in the past were so negative towards northern Ontario needs, but this government seems to believe that perhaps the previous government's policies were not so bad after all. Consequently, as a minister in the previous government, I find it difficult to criticize something I established. It is difficult to criticize Nordev, AgriNorth, EduCap and EldCap. The minister has not brought forward anything I can get my teeth into. The whole thrust is what I am concerned about and not the specific programs.

During the past election campaign, the official opposition of the day proclaimed many programs for the north which it believed would elevate northerners from their supposed colonial status, as the now Premier calls it, but I do not see any here in the minister's statement.

I repeat that the mandate of the ministry began to erode the day this government took office, and the few initiatives the government did dare to undertake will be useless to the people of northern Ontario. For example, the estimates I have before me show the budget for the ministry going from approximately $159 million in 1984-85 to $163 million planned for 1985-86. That represents an increase of only about $4.3 million.

Mr. Haggerty: No fire trucks.

Mr. Bernier: I hope there are going to be fire trucks. I hope he has not killed that program.

If the ministry plans to be a real Ministry of Northern Development and Mines, how does the minister plan to cover the increased expenditures he will be requiring for the mines part of his portfolio?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: It is coming.

Mr. Bernier: It is coming? We will have that. That is good to hear.

While I am speaking about mines, I want to take this opportunity to congratulate the new assistant deputy minister. I am sorry the minister has not seen fit to recognize his staff. I know Dennis Tieman will do a super job in that position. He was my financial administrator for a number of years. I do not know whether he is here.

Mr. Wildman: He left.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: They are loyal to me.

Mr. Bernier: That is right, and the least the minister could have done was recognize him as being elevated to a very important post as assistant deputy minister for mines. I hope the minister makes sure he is firmly located in the town of Kenora.

Mr. Wildman: This is a kiss of death.

Mr. Bernier: Anyway, we will hear more about the mines funding at a later date.

I realize that in percentage comparisons of spending in the gross provincial outflow, the budget of this ministry has actually decreased. In other words, in the total budget of the province, comparing last year and this year, what the ministry is getting is down.

For 1984-85, the outflow amounts to about $27 billion, while the ministry's expenditures amounted to about $159 million, or about 0.59 per cent of the total outflow. For 1985-86, however, the total outflow amounts to about $33 billion and the projected expenditures of this ministry are $163 million, which represents 0.5 per cent of this fiscal year's total outflow.

As members can see, this minister and this ministry are receiving less of the pie. I say to him again that bucks are real clout. He has to go back to the Treasurer and come here with some more money. We are prepared to look at supplementary estimates. I am sure my colleagues in the third party will support me in any expenditures the minister can get for northern Ontario.

I have to wonder how this government intends to keep its commitment to northern Ontario. I hope this decrease is not the beginning of a trend to a lesser commitment to northern Ontario. That is the fear I have. Once they start down the slippery slope of a reduced budget, then each year they will keep nipping away at it and the minister will end up with a much smaller budget in the years ahead. I flag that for the minister in a very helpful way. If he takes our arguments to the Treasurer, I am sure the members of the New Democratic Party will agree with me.

Moreover, the mandate of this ministry has also been very confused because of the naming problems this government seems to have with it. I have noticed a few sign changes on 10 Wellesley Street. There have been a number of sign changes. In fact, I think there are two names there now.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: They are in French now.

Mr. Bernier: French, yes; but they are new, different and very confusing.

I do not want to remind the government members of the names they proposed during the recent election campaign, but since they seem to be a bit mind-boggled over this problem, I will refresh their memories. I am sure the minister will remember that during the campaign, this minister and this government proposed to form a new ministry, to be called the Ministry of Northern Development and Native Affairs. Does the minister remember that?

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Yes; now it is mines.

Mr. Bernier: He remembers that distinctly. The mines were to be a separate portfolio of responsibility. I totally agree with that thrust with respect to mines. I tried to do it myself when I was in government. I commend the Liberal Party for going in the direction of setting up a separate ministry of mines, but that has not happened.

12:30 p.m.

First, we had the Ministry of Northern Affairs. When the minister took over in July, he changed it to the Ministry of Northern Affairs and Mines. There was a big hullabaloo and a big swearing-in ceremony. There was a new thrust, a mines portfolio that was supposed to be separate but now was tied in with the Ministry of Northern Affairs.

We had a new name, the Ministry of Northern Affairs and Mines. However, that was not to be there long, because the minister wanted to shake the Northern Affairs label that is right across the north. He said to the Sudbury paper: "Every time I go up north I hear Northern Affairs. All they think of is Bernier, Bernier, Bernier. We have to get rid of that."

For that simple partisan reason, he had to change the name from Northern Affairs and Mines to Northern Development and Mines. There was another swearing-in ceremony, another waste of the taxpayers' dollar. There was no new funding and no new programs; there was just a change of name.

There was also a change in the name of the Hearst airport. Let us talk about that. I was shocked to hear that the minister would allow his name to go on an airport that he had nothing to do with and that was 80 per cent paid for by the province. He was in power for two months and he got a local airport named after him. I think he has a thing about names.

Mrs. Marland: Is it perhaps because he has died?

Mr. Bernier: No; he is still here. He has a thing about names.

Anyway, we now have a Ministry of Northern Development and Mines. The thing that bothers me is that the original election thrust was that there would be a native affairs branch of the ministry. I thought that was a good idea, and I thought he was sincere in making that comment. I still think he is sincere, but I wonder what happened along the road. The native affairs branch was thrown out. It is not there any more. It is with the Attorney General.

The minister was sincere as a northerner and wanted to do something for the native people; he wanted it as part of his ministry. However, as soon as he came down to Toronto and met with his southern Ontario colleagues, there was no way he was going to have a native affairs branch. That went out the window. I am a little nervous about the clout the minister has with respect to dealing with his cabinet colleagues.

The playing with names has created much confusion in northern Ontario. The general feeling there is that the government does not know what it is doing, that it is ignorant of the north's needs and that there is no solid commitment to northern Ontario. I believe there is a growing perception that this government does not care about the north and would rather cater to southern Ontario, where most of its members are.

I quote from an editorial in the Thunder Bay Times-News, which strongly criticized the name-changing exercise this ministry went through.

"In the first years of operation, the staff of the Ministry of Northern Affairs has tried to work very closely with the people of northern Ontario to identify and then to begin work on priorities for the development of the north."

It goes on to say, at the end of the editorial:

"The final straw would come, though, if the Liberals were to make good on an election promise to rename the department the Ministry of Northern Development and Native Affairs. In Ottawa, one David Crombie is Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development."

It is just the names changed. It would be interesting if the minister would look at that. I hope this is the last name change for the ministry. I hope that we can get used to the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines and that the minister will not come back in six months and say it should be Northern Affairs.

On that point, I hope the minister keeps the northern affairs branch in place. Perhaps he wants to play around with the ministry's name for partisan reasons, but he should give serious consideration to maintaining the northern affairs branch because the senior citizens of northern Ontario know the 29 northern affairs officers. They are the Ombudsmen of northern Ontario; they will stay in place.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: There are 31.

Mr. Bernier: There are 31, but they will stay as northern affairs officers. The minister will not change their name. He will not take their signs away. He will let the people know he is not changing them to information officers. They will be northern affairs officers.

It is very important to the people of northern Ontario that they retain that identity. They have built that credibility across the north. They have done it with a lot of hard work. I urge the minister to retain that branch and to maintain that name, with which we have all become very familiar and of which we are supportive.

I want to touch on the Liberal-NDP accord. I am sure the member from the New Democratic Party will refer to it in his remarks. In document 2 of that accord, I remind the minister, there are several proposals for action regarding the north which he supposedly must implement during this first session or in the first two years.

One of the proposals is to establish an inquiry into the gasoline price differential between the north and the south. It is interesting that should be in the accord. When the Treasurer brought forward a gasoline tax increase, who supported that gasoline tax increase for northern Ontario? It was the New Democratic Party and the Liberal Party.

Mr. Wildman: That is not true. We forced the Treasurer to withdraw it.

Mr. Bernier: I am a little confused. On the one hand, they make an accord to look at the differential, but two or three weeks later they agree to a tax increase. It is hard to follow these people over here. I hope the minister can bring us up to date on this study on the differential and when we can see something come forward.

In that accord -- no, I think it was in the Liberal policy statement -- the Liberal Party agreed to equalize the price of milk right across Ontario. I will have something to say about that later.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: It is coming for milk.

Mr. Bernier: It is coming? Okay.

I want to touch on the Fahlgren report. I am pleased the minister made some slight reference to it. I impress upon him the urgency of getting on and dealing with the 129 recommendations Mr. Fahlgren made. I publicly supported the overall thrust of Mr. Fahlgren's report. I think the involvement of more northerners in the decision-making process is the route we should go, and I am pleased the minister agrees with that.

The minister made reference to some of the actions that have been already taken, but they are not enough. They are just a few, and time is going on. He has had the report since August. He has been studying it. His staff has been looking at it. It has been within the government. They are not new recommendations. We have heard about them in this House time and again. We have all made them; so they are not difficult recommendations.

We should get on with them, because what has happened in the Red Lake-Ear Falls area is of great concern to me. We have a mine that is going down and 250 employees who will lose their jobs as of April 1, 1986. The town of Ear Falls will lose 50 per cent of its municipal taxation base. We cannot get anybody else interested. There are about 18 years of economic ore left in that mine, but because of the iron ore glut in the world today and the high transportation costs, it is uneconomical and it is being phased out.

It is important that we look at the 19,000 square miles the Reed Paper Co. had under its memorandum of understanding to work with our native people, because they have to be involved, and to come up with a plan to get on with some forestry activity in that area. The Red Lake-Ear Falls area does need and is entitled to a forest industry of some sort. I am not saying what it should be. I was involved in the memorandum of understanding with the Reed Paper Co. We were looking at a pulp mill in that area.

There are a number of different things and the minister is very --

Mr. Wildman: That is what led to the formation of the Royal Commission on the Northern Environment.

Mr. Bernier: That is right. The minister is more familiar with the forest industry than I am. He could give some direction as to what type of industry should be established in the Red Lake-Ear Falls area.

As long as we have the recommendations of the Fahlgren commission sitting there and not being dealt with in a broad, general way, with the involvement of the local communities and of the native people, nothing will happen. The minister is holding up development. He is holding these people up to ransom because he is sitting on this report. I urge him and his staff to get on with it and to come forward with some recommendations and responses.

12:40 p.m.

The Northwestern Ontario Associated Chambers of Commerce is meeting in Atikokan on January 19 and 20 to look at the recommendations and to give the minister some direction and assistance as to where it thinks he should be going. It will be looking at it from its perspective, and I am hopeful we will have some of our own members there. The member for Rainy River (Mr. Pierce) will be attending, possibly as the minister's single-industry-community representative.

However, they will be there and working on it. They are anxious to get on and deal with it, because it is an expensive report. I defended the report. It took a number of years. I think Mr. Fahlgren has excelled what Patrick Hartt ever did in the two years he was there. We do not hear any mention of that. At least Mr. Fahlgren dealt with the issues in a very positive, straightforward, understandable way. It is now up to us, as decision-makers, to get on with it and answer the needs, particularly of those native people living in that vast area of northern Ontario.

I want to turn now to tourism. The minister made some comments in his opening remarks with regard to tourism.

"While tourism is important to Ontario as a whole, its significance is magnified in the northern regions of the province. Tourism is a huge industry with great opportunities for employment; it also has limitless potential. By its very nature, it helps overcome regional disparities within our own province. Its value, therefore, to certain remote areas of northern Ontario makes it without a doubt one of our most promising industries for the future of the north."

This quote is taken from a Liberal research document. That is where I found it. I agree with it. There is no question about it. I urge the minister to go back to his Liberal policies, dust them off and get some directions from the policies they had established when they were in opposition. I am sure we all agree it is ironic the government is not moving in this area.

As I said earlier, the Royal Commission on the Northern Environment concludes that, of all the possible economic activities in the north, tourism has the greatest potential. I am sure members all agree that tourism in the north could be its number one industry by the year 2000. However, with the scant policies of this government towards it, I hardly believe this opportunity will be a reality for this vast area of ours.

There are a few reasons this should be a priority. First, I would like to know if this government plans to create a tourism development board for Ontario, which, in turn, could help to promote the attractions of northern Ontario.

I would point out to the minister that when I was there, we were in the throes of finalizing plans for a major northern Ontario tourist seminar in Thunder Bay which would have brought together all the various people related to tourism, all those who depend on it, be they gas station operators, hotel, motel or tourist operators, tour guides or transportation people; everybody would have been brought to that major seminar in order to give us a new strategy, a new focus and a new 10-year direction for developing tourism in northern Ontario.

I would like to know why the minister cancelled that. The Northern Ontario Tourist Outfitters Association people were on board, the steering committee had been established, it was moving ahead, the terms of reference were in place. It should have gone ahead. Just because we changed governments did not mean it would not serve a useful purpose. However, it was scrubbed. There was no explanation; it was just cancelled. I hope it was not for partisan reasons. I believe that seminar would have given the minister some great advice and possibly some new direction with regard to an expanded and broadened tourist industry.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: It is coming.

Mr. Bernier: Is it coming? Okay.

While on the topic of cancelled initiatives to promote tourism in northern Ontario, I would also be glad to hear the minister's explanation for not going ahead with the national northern affairs ministers' conference in Minaki. That is an annual event that takes place right across this country. The input and knowledge one gains by meeting with one's counterparts is invaluable and I would urge the minister to reactivate that.

I realize he was new on the scene. It may have been difficult for him to get his arms around the ministry in that short time, but I would urge him to host that conference next year. Go to Minaki. Show the people of the rest of Canada what Minaki is all about. I am sure the minister will be impressed, too. I urge him to pick up where I left off, hold that national conference and share with his counterparts some of his problems. The advice I received in the exchange was most beneficial and I think the minister will find it so too.

I do not know whether the minister can do this, but I was particularly concerned about the $13-million cut in the budget for the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation and I wondered whether this ministry would make up the difference lost by that ministry for tourism in northern Ontario. The $13-million reduction in that small tourism budget will have definite effects on northern Ontario, so I wonder whether he is going to pick up that slack.

Taxes have been substantially increased by this government's budget brought down on October 24, 1985. Personal income taxes, liquor and wine taxes, beer taxes and various motor fuel taxes have all gone up. I am having trouble understanding these tax increases. I distinctly remember the Liberal Party's criticisms last year of the former government's taxation policies. To quote from that party's research document again, "One of the underlying reasons for this is that the sector," that is tourism, "is overtaxed and therefore overpriced." That is a comment the tourism critic made to us just a year ago.

Mr. Wildman: They did cut the sales tax on $1 meals.

Mr. Bernier: Big deal. One cannot even buy a hamburger for a buck.

It is interesting to read the estimates from last year, when the Liberal critic for Tourism and Recreation, who is now that portfolio's minister, greatly emphasized what he saw as the overtaxing of tourism in this province and said because of this Ontario was losing its competitive edge in the industry.

Therefore, because of this ministry's apparent inability to realize the importance of tourism for the northern economy and because of the Minister of Tourism and Recreation's apparent inability to maintain his budget and to protect the tourism industry from dreaded tax increases, I am wondering if these ministries have a lack of clout in the cabinet decisions which directly affect their portfolios.

That seems to be coming out. There are some big boys in that cabinet who are scooping all the bucks and this minister is not being heard. I do not know how we and the New Democratic Party can help him along the route to having more clout with his cabinet colleagues.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: That is my problem.

Mr. Bernier: I know it is the minister's problem, but it affects all of us in northern Ontario.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: Do not worry about it.

Mr. Bernier: I am worrying about it. The minister has not shown any direction yet. Nothing has happened to change my mind. Could the minister inform me of the status of the municipal information kiosks that are being put up in various centres in northern Ontario such as Sturgeon Falls, Nipigon, Shabaqua and Kirkland Lake? Possibly he could do that in his response.

Is the ministry studying the possibility of implementing a policy to ensure that the application of property taxes to northern Ontario residents is more fairly based on the seasonal nature of their operation? This is something we have talked about many times.

I would also like to know if this ministry will provide for the stimulation and funding for the modernization of small northern resorts, to increase Northern Ontario Development Corp. loans, as was promised. Specifically, are there plans to broaden capital assistance for these smaller resorts?

With respect to the accommodation tax, I am glad the government decided to extend indefinitely the five per cent tax rebate to out-of-province visitors, but I would be very glad if this rebate applied to Ontarians too. I believe this would encourage them further to visit northern Ontario.

Finally, I would like to talk about Ontario North Now. I am disappointed the minister did not make reference to it in his comments. It is one of the flagships of northern promotion in southern Ontario. I do not know if he is in favour of it, but it is in place and it is doing its job.

I would like to know if the minister has given any consideration to the request of the Northwestern Ontario Associated Chambers of Commerce that funding go to assist the 16 or so northern municipalities that come to Ontario North Now each year. It is getting more expensive each year for those municipalities to come down here to sell their communities in what is a very valuable selling experience. They need some financial assistance. I am sure if they were given $5,000 or $10,000 each, it would not upset the ministry's budget but it would assist them to promote northern Ontario in southern Ontario.

12:50 p.m.

I would also like the minister to provide us with information on the plans he has scheduled for Ontario North Now. Has he any new plans for Ontario North Now this summer? Is he going to make any new expenditures? Will there be any new thrusts? In his response, he might want to tell us how successful Ontario North Now was last year, after the major expenditure we made and the major expenditure made by Ontario Place. I hear rumours that it was substantial but I do not have any figures. I look forward to receiving that information when the minister responds.

In connection with transportation, the minister made some mention in his opening statement of its importance. As I said earlier in my remarks, it is related to the Treasury's policies, and I am glad the Treasurer is here to listen to the estimates of this ministry. As I have been pointing out, this ministry has had a reduction in its budget. I would hope the Treasurer, in his wisdom, would see fit to give the Minister of Northern Development and Mines some supplementary moneys. As opposition parties, we would be glad to support him in that effort. However, I am afraid he is losing his clout, along with the Minister of Tourism and Recreation.

There is a lot of rhetoric, a number of studies, a great many commissions, but no money. I make that plea directly to the Treasurer on behalf of my colleague the Minister of Northern Development and Mines.

I want to quote from the Northern Times. This is what the minister said in North Bay, "It would probably be cheaper just to give $200 to each resident north of North Bay to be used on taxis, instead of operating the Ontario Northland Railway passenger trains in that area." There is the old Rambo approach.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: That was misquoted. I never said that.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: It sounds like a misquote to me.

Mr. Bernier: It is quoted in the paper. I am just reading it. I am sure the minister wishes he had never said it. I hope he has since clarified this statement for the people of that general area. I think he has.

Consequently, I would like to know what plans the minister has. I note he makes some reference to the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission being overviewed, reviewed and possibly its role being expanded, with which I concur. I would like to know what he plans for the expanded service of the norOntair fleet in the northwest.

I am sure he will lay to bed once and for all the problem with the second Dash-8. I am pleased to see it will fly in northwestern Ontario. I have to criticize the minister for the three-month delay, sitting on the report. I understand he had it since August. It was a good report that Jack Stokes gave the minister. It was straightforward.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: There is no plane.

Mr. Bernier: The minister should have moved on it anyway. The plane was coming off the assembly line. If he had made the decision then and applied for the licence, that airplane would be flying today.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: The plane is in the garage. The member knows that.

Mr. Bernier: It could all be speeded up. Nevertheless, the minister was a little lax on that.

Hon. Mr. Fontaine: I did not sign those papers, the member did.

Mr. Bernier: I know. I bought the airplanes for northern Ontario. I did not buy them to fly in the Maritimes. They were not designed to fly there when we were in the government.

I am pleased the minister has come around. He has made the statement categorically it will fly in the northwest. That is the type of service to which we are entitled.

I hope in the minister's reply he will bring us up to date on the status of the bilevel train service we implemented and were moving on with respect to the ONR. We were in the throes of purchasing 20 bilevel cars from the Urban Transportation Development Corp. in Thunder Bay that would make the ONR one of the most modern transportation services on the North American continent, along with the refurbishing of the cars we picked up from GO Transit which are being redone now in the North Bay shop, to look at the Polar Bear Express operation. There are a number of questions there we would like answered.

According to the estimates I have before me, the northern transportation program has decreased by $1.5 million, from about $85 million last year to $83.5 million this year. I am glad the Treasurer is here to see that. Considering that this government as an opposition party, and again today in the minister's statement, emphasized the importance of northern transportation services, I fail to understand why this budget has been cut by almost $2 million. I have a hard time with this on the one hand and that on the other. That is what we are hearing from this minister; especially since the air services program seems to be hardest hit.

However, I commend the government's effort to increase transportation development under the northern economic development program. With this increase in mind, I would like to know how the government plans to intensify expansion of the northern roads program for increased bus and rail frequencies and for better utilization of the transportation infrastructure, when at the same time it has cut the budget for transportation services. Perhaps the minister will enlighten us on that point.

In addition, I would like to emphasize the importance of the northern roads program for northerners, especially in the development of the northern infrastructure. It increases the economic diversity that is needed right across northern Ontario.

I would like more details on some of the roads that have been planned with the ministry. It may be a little early for it, but when we were in office we met at about this time of the year with the Ministry of Transportation and Communications and we set the priorities for northern road construction programs. It was the senior staff of my ministry, working closely with MTC, that came forward with a very positive program. I hope it will not be long before the minister comes forward with his 1986-87 program.

I was also pleased to read and to learn in the estimates that the winter roads program is still intact and is identical to what it was last year. I hope there may be some expansion of that program in the coming year because it is something our native peoples look forward to. As well, the hefty budget cuts at MTC and the Ministry of Municipal Affairs may hurt transportation development in our part of northern Ontario.

On agriculture, the minister has spoken broadly and intensely across the north with respect to increasing farm potential. Besides paying farmers to get out of the farming business, will the government provide financial reforms, including low interest rates, for farmers right across northern Ontario where it is needed?

Mr. Wildman: Oh my God, why was that not done before?

Mr. Bernier: On November 1, 1985, the member for Algoma (Mr. Wildman) -- God bless him -- asked the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Riddell) to explain a statement in a letter sent by the minister to the member regarding the Liberal campaign promise to equalize milk prices right across the north. I want to put the statement into the record.

"I do not think it would be in the best interests of consumers or the entire dairy industry to establish a system of controls on the wholesale and retail prices of fluid milk. Therefore, I will not be proposing any changes of this nature to the Milk Act."

The minister then responded, "We could perhaps move as a government to try to equalize the price of milk by doing something by way of transportation assistance."

In view of the fact it is part of his party's policy to equalize the price of milk across this province, I hope he will comment on this issue facing us. Another issue that is surfacing -- I do not know whether the member for Algoma is aware of it -- is the fact that an increase in the price of bread is coming forward. With the increased price of wheat, we are seeing a sudden and sharp increase in the price of bread. A 24-ounce loaf of bread today sells for $1.80 in Sandy Lake and for 91 cents in Toronto. With this added increase, it is going to cause more aggravation for the people who live in that vast area of the remote north. The AgriNorth program was developed, as I said earlier, by the former government with the objective of improving agriculture in the north and of creating programs to cater to the needs of northern Ontario farmers. I would like to know by what methods the minister plans to expand this industry, because he has talked about it a lot right across the north. If he does plan to do so, noting the large cut in the resources development program, how can he expand it? He goes to northern Ontario and says he is going to do something for agriculture, yet that part of his ministry's budget is being cut.

When I was minister, we commissioned a wild rice study by Dr. Lee at Lakehead University.

Mr. Chairman: Order. Perhaps this might be an opportune time to discontinue your statement.

On motion by Hon. Mr. Nixon, the committee of supply reported progress.

The House adjourned at 1 p.m.

January 10, 1986

ORAL QUESTIONS

TRUST COMPANIES

SUNDAY TRADING

INSURANCE RATES

PENSION REFORM

COURT RULING

EMPLOYEE HEALTH AND SAFETY

INSURANCE RATES

MULTICULTURAL POLICY

DOMESTIC WORKERS

HIGHWAY EXTENSION

ELECTROSHOCK THERAPY

ASSISTED HOUSING

SUSPENSION OF STUDENT

VISITORS

MOTION

COMMITTEE SITTING

ORDERS OF THE DAY

THIRD READINGS

ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT AND MINES