ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF INTERGOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
The House resumed at 8 pm.
House in committee of supply.
ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF INTERGOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
The Deputy Chairman: Is there an opening statement by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs?
Mr. Ruston: Yes, he has. I am reading a thing here of about 26 pages.
Hon. Mr. Wells: Mr. Chairman, it is actually a very short statement that I thought I should make to the House.
Mr. Breaugh: It will take about three hours to read.
Hon. Mr. Wells: It is typed very large, and everyone has been supplied with a copy of it.
Mr. Bradley: Will this take us to the end of the first period?
Hon. Mr. Wells: I think all members of this House are hoping the Montreal Canadiens win tonight. I am sure they will need the members' support before the tube at some part of the evening.
Mr. Bradley: Those who have money on the Islanders will not be hoping so, and some of us do.
Hon. Mr. Wells: Yes.
I would like to begin by saying that this estimates debate, as always, provides a welcome opportunity for members of the House to review several issues of an intergovernmental nature. I would particularly like to reflect on some of the implications for Ontario and Canada of recent international trends and the impact of these trends on our federal structure.
Before doing so, however, I would like to share with the House some of the changes that have taken place within my area of responsibility. On January 1 a new Deputy Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs was appointed. He is Gary Posen, who is well known to many of you. Mr. Posen brings to this position a wealth of experience. He served for several years as director of federal-provincial relations in our ministry and for many years in the Ministry of Treasury, Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs in various intergovernmental capacities.
During that time, in his last position as director of federal-provincial relations, Gary was a valued senior adviser on all significant federal-provincial and interprovincial policy questions that this government had to address.
More recently, Gary has served as the assistant secretary to Management Board responsible for program review. This exercise was designed to introduce greater efficiency and a sense of priority into our policy and program development systems.
I would also like to acknowledge at this time my sincere appreciation to my former Deputy Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Don Stevenson.
[Applause]
Hon. Mr. Wells: I am sure Don would appreciate the sentiments from all members of this House. He was a very hardworking and efficient Deputy Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. He was in this ministry from 1978 to the end of 1983 and he made an invaluable contribution to the conduct of Ontario's relations with other governments in Canada and abroad.
More particularly, he was a major constructive influence in the discussions and negotiations leading to the adoption of the Canadian Charter of Rights and our revised Canadian Constitution.
Don is now the Deputy Provincial Secretary for Resources Development, and I am sure he will continue to play an important role in the public life of Ontario and Canada, In addition to being Deputy Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Don was also the provincial co-ordinator for French-language services.
Replacing him as the new co-ordinator is Clément Sauvé. Mr. Sauvé is a distinguished Franco-Ontarian. He has been a senior Ontario public servant for a number of years. In addition to his new duties as co-ordinator, Mr. Sauvé continues to serve as secretary to the policy and priorities board of cabinet.
With regard to the estimates before them, members will have noted, I am sure, that our planned expenditures this year are approximately one million dollars higher than the estimates for the last fiscal year. Included in this year's estimates are a number of special, one-time-only expenditures.
For example, I refer to the visit by Her Majesty in July, to the provincial portion of the temporary storage of radioactive soil from the Malvern residential area and to the final instalment of our disaster relief assistance for earthquake victims in Italy. If this special, extraordinary, one-time spending is placed to one side, I would note for members that the spending for the core ongoing programs of this ministry will be about the same amount as the actual expenditures during 1983-1984.
Moreover, we will accomplish this restraint without any significant change in our mandate. On the contrary, we expect to be providing advice on an ever-increasing number of issues of importance to the province.
In my opening remarks I want to focus on the international economic environment and its implications for Canada and our province. I am sure all of us in this House recognize the global environment of today is a far different one and a challenging one. The world has come through some tough times and is emerging from a severe economic recession.
Unemployment, protectionism and industrial adjustment are now lingering problems of major proportions. Canada is rich in natural and skilled human resources and has enormous potential for economic growth and renewal. However, success in achieving this potential will depend on our ability to compete in international markets and to cope with rapid change and continuing instability.
The Canadian response to this situation will have to be strong and effective in very substantive terms. However, given the federal nature of our country and our recent propensity for internal conflict, the process by which we develop such a response will be just as critical.
Thus, the challenge we face has a domestic and an international dimension. Let me remind the House that the mandate of the Ministry of Intergovernmental Affairs encompasses both of these dimensions.
Let me turn to the domestic scene first. At the federal level, we are now witnessing the end of a political era as Prime Minister Trudeau's retirement draws closer. We have a new leader of the federal Progressive Conservative Party, and by June 17, 1984, we will have a new leader of the federal Liberal Party, who will in due course take his place as Prime Minister. Within the year we will undoubtedly experience a federal election.
Mr. Ruprecht: What about the NDP? When are they going to change leaders?
The Deputy Chairman: Order. The honourable member is being provocative.
Hon. Mr. Wells: All this has added to the uncertainty and frustration in our federal-provincial relations. During the past decade, interprovincial relations have also suffered major strain. At present, however, stress in our relations with Quebec resulting from the separatist option and the tensions resulting from competing economic interests between regions such as Ontario and Alberta are somewhat muted.
8:10 p.m.
In a federation such as Canada, harmony and prosperity are largely dependent on the ability of federal and provincial governments to co-operate with one another in good faith. The past decade has illustrated this need vividly, and it underscores the need for co-operative solutions.
Although the major intergovernmental conflicts which have characterized this period have eased, several irritants remain. However, it should be apparent to all of us that if we are to take full advantage of our international opportunities, we will first have to put our own house in order. We must develop a national consensus on appropriate goals and priorities, consult on the range of policy initiatives required and coordinate the interdependent programs of both our orders of government, federal and provincial. In very simple terms this means we must learn to work together again.
Achieving such a degree of co-operation in the face of the international challenge is not going to be easy. It will force us to face up to some very difficult domestic issues. For example, as I emphasized in my previous estimates statement, we will have to consider new national institutions and practices which will generate the cohesiveness we so desperately require.
I recognize Canadian federalism is, in part, a difficult balancing act. Our history is one of continued struggle to find an effective balance between national and provincial interests, between the French and the English cultures and between our different and often competing economic interests.
During the next decade we will particularly have to find the balance appropriate to the new economic circumstances we face. We will, for example, have to consider how much emphasis to put on efficiency and competitiveness, on the one hand, and equality and redistribution, on the other. All of this will require a greater sensitivity to the national interest than we have collectively shown in recent years.
Strong federal leadership combined with regular provincial input will be absolutely critical to achieving success. We will need national institutions that encourage this kind of cooperation. It is in all our interests to redevelop our sense of partnership to ensure that our decisions reflect our mutual best interests. To do so, it will be more important than ever to ensure we understand one another.
For our part, Ontario will have to be more vigilant and effective in explaining our interests to both the federal government and to other provinces. One way I might suggest to assist in this objective might be through provincial representation in Ottawa and in other regions of Canada. Some provinces already have offices in Ottawa. British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Quebec are now represented in this way.
In addition, Quebec has offices in Toronto, Moncton and Edmonton. Perhaps now is the time for Ontario seriously to consider adopting this kind of approach. A visible Ontario presence in other parts of Canada would enable this province to explain its own interests, policies and views very directly. Conversely, I think it would provide us back here with a better understanding of the interests, policies and views of other provinces and regions.
Similarly, a more effective intergovernmental presence in Ottawa could go a long way towards strengthening federal-provincial relations. Unlike other provinces, we do have many provincial offices in Ottawa to deliver the services of various ministries of this government, but we do not have a direct intergovernmental office to liaise with the federal government.
Mr. Boudria: Is that where the minister is posting Omer?
Hon. Mr. Wells: I will tell the member that in due course now.
Having an intergovernmental office in Ottawa could encourage the federal government's policy process to be more responsive to the interests and concerns of the government of Ontario in a more direct and timely way.
But increased domestic representation within Canada should not be our only focus. In this ever-more competitive world environment, the establishment of a distinct image for Ontario internationally must also be considered a key aspect of the challenge. Opportunities for growth in our economy are going to depend on this province's ability to develop markets in the United States and elsewhere in the world. Trade objectives must be pursued by direct and by indirect means. Educational, cultural, and scientific exchanges, for example, all contribute to the building of bridges with our trading partners and lend substance to our relations with them.
Similarly, official visits contribute to the development of bilateral contacts and are a means for us to showcase our province's diversified economic and industrial base and our resources, both natural and human. These visits have increased dramatically, both to and from Ontario. Fostering contacts and opening doors raise the potential for commercial spinoffs and assist in developing international trade opportunities.
I see my friend is smiling as I say that. I hope his visit to New Orleans next week will accomplish those same ends. I am sure it will.
For these reasons, the Ontario government has established a network of offices abroad to complement the work of Canadian embassies. Ontario Houses in London, Paris, Brussels and New York, along with trade offices in Hong Kong, Tokyo, Frankfurt and a number of United States cities are a way to build our reputation in a variety of ways. On this activity my ministry and the Ministry of Industry and Trade work hand in hand.
The number of international issues in which this province has a direct interest has increased very significantly in recent years. As a result, it has become increasingly important that we are quickly made aware of developments in key areas of the world. This is particularly so with the United States. For the obvious reasons of geography and affinity, relations with the United States are Ontario's primary international concern.
There are a number of difficult issues affecting our interests that have emerged with the United States. Ontario has had to deal with them quickly and with the assurance that the essential interests of this province are recognized and protected to the greatest degree possible.
One of Ontario's greatest needs in Washington has been an early warning system. We require some means by which we can learn about the plans or programs of the United States administration or the legislative initiatives in Congress that may impact on this province in time to be able to do something about it.
Since 1971 the Canadian embassy in Washington and all Canadian consulates in the United States have passed informative messages to us through the Department of External Affairs. While this information flow, as I call it, is very useful, it can never be as substantive or timely as we may wish. We must, therefore, supplement the information flow from time to time by other means. This may be as informal as telephone calls to the embassy or, in the case of very important issues like air quality, necessitate the use of agents and information-gathering consultants as they may be required.
The nature and importance of the emerging Canadian-American issues and their critical implications for Ontario suggest it may now be appropriate for us to use consultants in Washington on a more frequent and perhaps continuing basis. It should be made clear that our aim has always been to have the Canadian embassy formally represent Ontario's interest. Canada must be seen to speak with one voice in Washington. Ontario's consultants are not lobbyists. They do not press Ontario's point of view to the administration or to members of Congress.
Whereas in the past, Canadian trade has focused primarily on the United States, we must look at other areas of the world if we are to increase our exports significantly. Particularly promising areas are the Pacific Rim and the Middle East. Ontario will have to establish a foothold in these important new markets. It will not be an easy task. The great diversity within those regions, the varying states of economic development, the cultural differences and the variety of political systems require carefully tailored approaches.
Ontario has been active, too, as I say, in the Middle East, particularly in the sale and provision of services. We continue to regard the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia as a very promising area.
The government has undertaken a number of initiatives to promote Ontario's interests in Asia and the Pacific. We have emphasized the province --
An hon. member: What about Saudi Arabia?
Mr. Boudria: Do not interrupt his train of thought.
8:20 p.m.
Hon. Mr. Wells: I have just emphasized the great work in Saudi Arabia. My friend the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Snow) has already visited there and done a great job selling Ontario and Ontario interests.
As I say, the government has taken a number of initiatives to promote Ontario's interests in Asia and the Pacific. We have emphasized the province as a sound location for entrepreneurs seeking to diversify their investments and we have promoted our public sector capacity in education, training and transportation. The growing number of visits, student exchanges, international co-operation and cultural exchanges have also served to strengthen the links between Canada and Asia.
In 1983, the Premier (Mr. Davis) visited Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore. In return, this year Ontario has welcomed the Prime Ministers of Thailand, Malaysia and the People's Republic of China to Toronto.
In January, when the province had the opportunity to host Premier Zhao Ziyang of China, I talked to him about the possible twinning of our province and the province of Jiangsu. I came away from that meeting heartened by the positive response we received to that proposal. China's desire for technology transfer and technical co-operation is well understood by Ontario and may provide some exciting and interesting new opportunities.
With this in mind, a delegation of senior Ontario officials headed by my deputy minister will visit Jiangsu in the next few months to pursue the twinning initiative.
Mr. Roy: Are you not going along?
Hon. Mr. Wells: I am not going.
Although the United States must logically be our prime interest, and the Middle East and the Pacific Rim hold many future possibilities, let me assure the House we have not forgotten the importance of our relations with Europe. As one of the richest and most varied markets in the world, western Europe remains vitally important to Canada and Ontario, second in importance only to the United States. It continues to be a key priority to this province. Through our offices in Paris and Brussels, new opportunities are continuing to be sought and developed.
Mr. Bradley: How is Omer Déslauriers?
Mr. Wells: He is doing a very good job. He is working hard on the member's behalf, on my behalf and on behalf of the people of Ontario.
To conclude this area of the program of this ministry, let me say it is clear we face a challenge that involves the economic future of Canada. It will require us to redesign out national institutions to be more vigorous in developing national policies to strengthen out economy and industries, and to be aware that the measure of our success will be our ability to compete more effectively in an increasingly complex and demanding world.
It is interesting to reflect in this bicentennial year that this is not the first time the people of this province and country have faced difficult challenges. In their day, the pioneers and settlers of Ontario had their own problems to overcome. In 1984, we are celebrating their success in meeting those problems and the contribution of all the generations of Ontarians who have followed.
As all members know, particularly those who saw that great film last night, the theme for our bicentennial is "Celebrating Together." It underlines the hard work and community commitment that individual citizens have made to our province. Bicentennial celebrations honour the parts played - -
Mr. Bradley: This would be a good speech for 1991.
Mr. Boudria: It is an unusual exercise in modern mathematics.
Hon. Mr. Wells: Do the members not want to honour the parts played by all the people who have made up this province?
Mr. Boudria: You cannot change history. You phonies are changing geography.
Hon. Mr. Wells: The member should just worry about honouring all those people who for the last 200 years have developed this province and we will be happy to join with him.
These celebrations honour the parts played in our development by our early settlers, native people, Franco-Ontarians and new Canadians from all over the world who have made this province envied for its tolerance, peacefulness and prosperity. Our bicentennial year should give us the strength to do those things that need to be done to better our country, our province, our community, our families and ourselves.
Mr. Roy: Let us stop now and pray a bit longer. We are all in favour of the Lord's Prayer and we love our families.
Hon. Mr. Wells: We can bring the band in now, if the member would like.
Mr. Roy: Soft music only please.
The Deputy Chairman: There is no music in the House.
Hon. Mr. Wells: Let me say, having just concluded those remarks about the bicentennial, that we are all very pleased that Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh have accepted our invitation to visit Ontario and to participate in our bicentennial celebrations.
I would like to say to my friends across the House, since they, of course, are closer to those people aspiring to be the leader of the Liberal Party and Prime Minister of Canada, please tell them that the people of Ontario do not want that tour cancelled.
Mr. Ruston: Especially when you are the first ones to call an election.
Hon. Mr. Wells: No.
Mr. Boudria: Especially when you are down in the polls.
Mr. Ruston: We know you guys. Don't worry about that.
The Deputy Chairman: Order. The honourable members will have an opportunity to discuss this.
Hon. Mr. Wells: I think it would be a sad day and a shameful thing for all the preparations that have gone on and for the expectations of the communities of this province if someone should consider it.
Now I would not even think of mentioning this except that the recurring rumour keeps jumping forward, and I understand --
Mr. Wrye: Like a June election.
Hon. Mr. Wells: No, I am sure the leader of the federal Conservative Party has asked in the House of Commons for the same guarantee from the present Prime Minister.
Mr. Bradley: He wants an election,
Hon. Mr. Wells: No. He said, "I hope you would guarantee to the people of this country that the visit will not be interfered with."
Mr. Roy: Did he say that before or after the polls?
Hon. Mr. Wells: I do not know when he said it, but since the members opposite are very close to those aspiring to that high job, I hope they will pass on to them that the people of Ontario want that visit to proceed.
Mr. Bradley: They keep telling me Brian Mulroney wants an election.
Mr. Roy: If you are in a pinch, move.
Hon. Mr. Wells: Well. I hope my friend is not saying that he would condone actions that would cancel this visit. I hope he is not, because I think the people of this province expect --
Mr. Roy: In bicentennial year, I want to see the Queen. Let that be on the record,
Hon. Mr. Wells: Well, that is fine.
The Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh will be here from July 16 to 24, and they will visit many regions in Ontario. They are going to have the opportunity to meet Ontario residents from all walks of life; native peoples, youth, senior citizens, multicultural groups, farming and other community organizations.
In 1984, we will also be honoured by the visit of His Holiness Pope John Paul II during the month of September. In this regard, two of the most treasured historical sites in this province, the Martyrs' Shrine and Sainte-Marie Among the Hurons in Midland, are included on his itinerary.
I would say these visits cannot help but make 1984 an eventful and historically memorable year for this province.
As minister responsible for French-language services, I would like now to take a --
Mr. Boudria: Let's hear this.
Mr. Bradley: Oh, here it comes.
Hon. Mr. Wells: This is particularly for the member for St. Catharines,
Mr. Wrye: En français?
Hon. Mr. Wells: I would like for a few minutes to outline our activities during the past year with regard to these services and to indicate to the House our priorities for 1984-85.
Over the past 15 years the government of Ontario has developed the capacity to provide a broad range of French-language services in virtually all of the Ontario government offices located in the designated areas throughout the province. If we look back --
Mr. Roy: You said this in an earlier speech. I am reading an earlier speech and you said the same thing.
Hon. Mr. Wells: I know. I want to have it said again in this House and I want to have it in the records of Hansard because so many people seem to forget what I am saying.
Mr. Roy: It is called the quiet revolution speech.
Mr. Boudria: I think the problem is that too many people remember.
8:30 p.m.
Mr. Roy: Is this being taped?
Hon. Mr. Wells: We also have the Ontario federal Conservative caucus meeting across the hall. I want this to be heard so it will spread far and wide in this building.
If we look back two decades, all this was nonexistent. These services, policies, administrative procedures and statutes had to be developed from scratch. Ontario's commitment to French-language services has resulted in many changes in law and the extension of French-language services on a steadily increasing basis year after year.
Over the years, our approach has been based on the following four main principles: a respect for Ontario's history, an emphasis on pragmatic rather than symbolic solutions, the need to develop the human resources to deliver the services and the subsequent consideration of constitutional or statutory guarantees.
Mr. Bradley: Tell the francophones what you are doing but don't tell the anglophones.
Hon. Mr. Wells: I am telling the member in this House here tonight and I will tell everybody. I do not make different speeches to francophone groups and to anglophone groups.
To expand on these considerations, let us begin with the first of these two items -- respect for Ontario's history and an emphasis on pragmatic rather than symbolic solutions. Ontario's policy has been developed in a spirit of attempting to provide French-language services to the province's official minority-language group while at the same time respecting the wishes of the majority of its residents.
Mr. Boudria: Did the minister say "official"?
Hon. Mr. Wells: I said the official minority language, certainly.
This means proceeding at a careful, well thought out pace, gradually yet steadily developing services for Ontario's French-speaking population in a manner acceptable to and in harmony with the majority. This approach has proven highly successful, enabling Ontario to avoid the problems that have been encountered by other provinces from time to time.
With regard to the third consideration, staff training and development needs, the quality of Ontario's French-language services are contingent on having in place bilingual personnel capable of serving the public and managing programs in both official languages and developing the necessary resources to do so. Such capable people do not crop up overnight. This process needs careful cultivation and nurturing to ensure continuous growth and to support the provision and extension of adequate French-language services.
Over the past few years, the number of Ontario's civil servants with a French-language capacity in the various ministries has increased considerably, despite severe budgetary constraints and a steady reduction since 1976 in the total number of civil servants in Ontario.
The fourth consideration, the achievement of statutory protection or constitutional entrenchment, is of the utmost importance to the government of Ontario as a means of safeguarding and confining the gains that have been realized. With the capacity to provide services in place, what is required is providing through legislation firm guarantees that have sanction in law.
In education, the area in which our services are best developed, we have long been supportive of constitutional guarantees for minority language rights. I am very proud of the fact the government of Ontario was the first among the provinces to urge the entrenchment of minority-language education rights in the Canadian Constitution.
Section 23 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which constitutionally entrenches these rights, is one of the major achievements in the long and often difficult process of constitutional reform.
In summing up, I have just described the four pillars upon which the government's approach to French-language policy is based. Now I would like to outline specifically what we have achieved in terms of providing services to the province's francophones by comparing the situation that existed 20 years ago with the current situation.
That is what we must do. We do not compare ourselves with other provinces; we must compare what was here 20 years ago with what is here today. When we do that, it is apparent the government's French-language policy has enabled us to develop a wide range of French-language services.
As a result of the government's step-by-step approach, there has been a growing awareness and increased sensitivity on the part of Ontario's civil servants towards the necessity of responding to the needs of the province's francophone population.
The office of the provincial co-ordinator of French-language services is the main body responsible for the development and co-ordination of policy in French-language services. As I have already mentioned, Mr. Clément Sauvé is the new co-ordinator of French-language services. As such, Mr. Sauvé provides the office with policy development leadership while the Deputy Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is responsible for maintaining the close working relationship that has always existed between the office and the ministry.
The co-ordinator's mandate covers a broad range of activities, such as making policy recommendations to cabinet, assisting ministries with the implementation of French-language policy and establishing guidelines for French-language services for the government as a whole and also for the various ministries.
To ensure the government's French-language services correspond to the needs of their users, the office of the government co-ordinator analyses these services regularly in terms of both quality and quantity. This analysis is reflected in the report of the government co-ordinator, which is tabled in this Legislature each year.
For the fiscal year 1984-85, the office of the provincial co-ordinator's expenditures are estimated to be $1.393 million, an increase of about $108.000 over actual expenditures for 1983-84. Among its main activities over the past year, the office has helped various ministries to designate a range of positions requiring French-language capability, held information meetings on the government's French-language services policy for regional office employees and begun implementing various recommendations of the 1982 study on French-language services. In fact, 16 of the study's 72 recommendations have already been implemented and 32 are in the process of being implemented.
As an information vehicle, the office provides a 10-minute videotape on French-language services. This material is used at employee information meetings organized by ministry co-ordinators of French-language services. An information kit explaining the government's French-language policy, the responsibilities of the office and a directory of the government offices providing French-language services was also produced for the first time.
During 1983-84, the office of the co-ordinator carried out its annual information campaign. The effectiveness of this campaign was demonstrated by a substantial increase in the number of calls from the public received by Renseignemnents-Ontario, the office's toll-free telephone information service. During the 22 weeks of the campaign, the number of calls increased by 45 per cent, and more than half the people who called Renseignements-Ontario were first-time users of the service.
Finally, through another program, the community projects support fund, the office helped 85 community organizations to develop or implement services and activities for the French-speaking population throughout Ontario. Because of the increasing demand for assistance and because of the improved quality of the program ideas submitted, the government has decided to increase the allocation to the support fund tom $425,000 in 1983-84 to $500,000 in 1984-85.
In terms of the action the government as a whole plans to take in the coming year with regard to French-language services guarantees, 1984 will be a very important year. During the current session of the Legislature, a number of bills containing provisions for French-language services will be introduced.
In education, the government intends to recognize the fundamental right of every English- or French-speaking student to an education in his or her language. In effect, this will remove the "where numbers warrant" clause in legislation governing minority-language education in Ontario. This amendment to the Education Act will go even further than guarantees currently provided by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in the Canadian Constitution.
This proposed legislation will also enable the Minister of Education (Miss Stephenson) to take appropriate action if a school board does not accept the recommendations of the Languages of Instruction Commission of Ontario regarding the establishment of minority language instructional units or schools or other related matters.
8:40 p.m.
Following the consultation process which is going on, further amendments will be introduced later to the Education Act to require some school boards to set up minority-language units made up of trustees elected by voters from the minority-language group. It is intended that these units will have the power to make decisions on educational programs and services for the school board minority-language students.
In the area of justice, the Courts of Justice Act, making French an official language of the courts of Ontario, has now become law. It was given royal assent this week and it will take effect on January 1, 1985. This new law will guarantee the rights of all French-speaking citizens of the province to a trial in their own language.
In the area of social services, we are currently in the process of revising and consolidating child and family law. One of the many new initiatives that will be included in a bill slated for introduction later this spring is a provision for French-language services for francophone children and for families.
In addition, the recent speech from the throne announced that the government would undertake "to increase the supply of French-speaking health care workers and ensure a better distribution of health services in French-speaking areas." I understand the Ministry of Health has already initiated five major projects to achieve this objective.
Before concluding my remarks, I would like to say a few words about the work and achievements of the Council for Franco-Ontarian Affairs, or CAFO, le Conseil des Affaires franco-ontariennes. During 1983, CAFO kept in constant touch with the Franco-Ontarian community, held public consultations and advised the government on a number of issues such as arts and culture, libraries, telecommunications, health and social services, sports and fitness, legal services, school governance and the status of women.
I would also like to thank Dr. Jérôme Corbeil, who so graciously accepted the difficult --
Mr. Boudria: He is one of my constituents.
Hon. Mr. Wells: I recognize that. He accepted the difficult responsibility of acting chairman of the council for three and a half months after the chairman, Mr. Roger Régimbal, fell gravely ill last December. Dr. Corbeil and Mr. Régimbal, as well as their able executive secretary, Miss Denyse Nazaire, must be congratulated for their dedication and for CAFO's achievements in 1983-1984. I am very pleased to inform the House that Mr. Régimbal is back on the job again now and recovering well.
Mr. Roy: Glad to hear it. Is that because he is not attending any more Conservative conventions?
Hon. Mr. Wells: I can guarantee my friend that he will not be at the Liberal convention.
Mr. Boudria: I think you can also guarantee that he will not be at the other one any more either.
Mr. Roy: He will not be at that one until after the next election.
The Deputy Chairman: Order. Honourable members, control yourselves.
Hon. Mr. Wells: In conclusion, I would like to point out that the government's French-language services have not been developed in a vacuum. They are the product of significant social and attitudinal changes on the part of Ontario's population. These changes have resulted in an increased awareness and understanding of the needs and aspirations of Ontario's francophone population. This in itself is no small achievement, what we have accomplished in a relatively short period of time is dramatic.
We have tried to ensure that we have the support of all the people of Ontario for our policy. Progress, while steady, may not have been as rapid as some people might have hoped, but it has resulted in vastly increased services to our provinces francophones, backed up by legislative guarantees that will stand the test of time and that have the acceptance of the majority of the province's population.
Mr. Roy: Mr. Chairman, my colleagues and I sitting here recognize that, as usual, the minister has been very effective in making a very magnanimous, all-encompassing opening statement. We thank the minister for covering very important areas of his ministry in his opening statement. He always has a way of minimizing his efforts. He said he had a short opening statement, but I point out that it was some 30 pages and has taken some 45 minutes. It was quite all-encompassing.
This year my colleagues and I were waiting for something else. We were sitting here breathlessly, hoping that in this 30-page, 45-minute opening statement we would get some answers to certain questions all of us have asked different ministers and I have asked this minister specifically.
Some of the questions are very legitimate. For instance, would the minister indicate the amount spent by his ministry on management and consulting services? That sounds legitimate. When I got here this evening and I saw there were 30 pages, I said to myself, "He is answering in this statement.'' I thought for sure it was in this opening statement, but there was no such answer.
Are there any answers to the questions of how much was spent on technical consulting services, on communication services, on legal services, on research and development services, on creative communication services as defined by the Manual of Administration of the Management Board of Cabinet for fiscal years 1978-79 to 1982-83 inclusive? I thought we might see some answers to these questions.
Mr. Kerrio: Why don't you put them on the order paper?
Mr. Roy: My colleague the member for Niagara Falls asks why we did not put them on the order paper. We did.
Mr. Ruston: I remember that.
Mr. Wrye: It was a month or so ago.
Mr. Boudria: What did the government answer?
Mr. Roy: We will talk about the minister's response later, but I thought he would have indicated the number of contracts involved in each of the categories in these fiscal years. I thought the minister might answer questions like: "What is the total advertising budget for your ministry?" I thought that was a legitimate question.
I thought he would answer questions about the number of employees directly responsible for communication with the public and the press and the total salaries in the information branch of his ministry or any agencies and boards of that ministry. I thought these were legitimate questions. That is what estimates are all about. I thought he would tell us the number of clerical and support and contract staff who assist communication officers and their total salaries for the fiscal year 1982-83. I would like to know that.
Mr. Bradley: The whole gravy train.
Mr. Roy: Yes. That is right. I would like to know that. I would like to know whether the ministry has commissioned any public opinion polls --
Mr. Wrye: They do not do public opinion polls.
Mr. Roy: I ask my colleague, is that an unfair question?
Mr. Wrye: Very reasonable. Freedom of information.
Mr. Roy: Mr. Chairman, if you want to participate in this debate, would it be unfair to ask this question?
The Deputy Chairman: I ask the member not to keep asking all the other members.
Mr. Roy: I cannot restrain my friends. They are waiting breathlessly to find out whether there are any answers to all these questions.
The Deputy Chairman: Please exercise restraint. We have used the sword once already today.
Mr. Van Horne: Mr. Chairman, with respect, you have kicked more people out of this House than anybody else in authority.
Mr. Roy: Besides, it is a new sword and we do not want to break it in too quickly.
I ask the minister whether he will table public opinion polls commissioned by the government during the fiscal years 1981-82 and 1982-83. Will the minister indicate the cost of each poll? These are public funds.
Mr. Bradley: If he did that, he would be flying with the eagles.
Mr. Roy: That is right. What is the cost of these polls? Which companies took the polls? Were the undertakings tendered or not? I thought tendering of contracts was a fair question.
8:50 p.m.
Mr. Boudria: That is like tendering boats, is it not?
Mr. Roy: That is right. I would have thought the minister might answer another question that was asked of the minister. For instance, would the minister indicate how many vehicles are rented, leased or owned by the ministry? What is the expense incurred and the description and model of these vehicles? We are asking what is Omer driving out there in Brussels. That is a fair question, I would have thought. But no answer, I looked all through the statement, and there was nothing there.
Hon. Mr. Wells: What is he driving? He is driving his own car.
Mr. Roy: The minister is now saying he is driving his own car.
Other questions were asked. I asked the minister to indicate the number of people who are employed by the ministry by contract or otherwise. We know this government has bragged consistently about holding down the number of public servants. Let us find out the number on contract.
Mr. Epp: Two sets of books.
Mr. Kerrio: Two sets of books.
Mr. Roy: Some of my friends are suggesting there are two sets of books. I would not suggest that of this minister, but I would have thought that if he had nothing to hide he might have said something about this in his statement. There is nothing at all -- not a word.
I asked finally about the number of trips taken out of the country in that ministry. That is a fair enough statement. I am talking about public expense now. My colleague the member for Renfrew North (Mr. Conway) and I went out of the country to visit Mr. Dunlap, our agent general in New York. We did not go at public expense. We went at our own expense to visit the office and see what was happening.
We thought it would be a fair question to find out the number of trips taken outside of Canada by the minister, the deputy minister, the assistant deputy ministers, all at public expense. We thought that was a fair question.
In any event, my colleagues and I put all these questions asked of various ministries on Orders and Notices.
Mr. Boudria: And what was the answer?
Mr. Roy: The minister answered. We got what they call a temporary answer in April 1984. They availed themselves of standing order 81(d) which states the government may decline to answer written questions where "the numbers of questions posed or the complexity thereof has been exceeded in the view of the government."
Then the minister went on to say this:
"It is submitted that there are indeed additional avenues of information which may be utilized in this instance. The government has referred to them on previous occasions, but they bear repeating. They include the public accounts of Ontario, the legislative library" -- they say we can go to the library -- "the ministry libraries, the caucus research offices" -- the resources of which have been increased considerably in recent years -- "and, of course, the estimates process."
Mr. Boudria: That is what we are doing right now.
Mr. Roy: That is right. He said: "The estimates represent a major activity in the life of the Legislature. Each year, hundreds of hours are provided during which members may discuss the expenditure transactions of every ministry.
They said: "No. We will not answer the order paper questions; they are too complicated. Ask them during the estimates of the ministry."
Mr. Kerrio: And here we are.
Mr. Roy: So here we are. In fact, some of my colleagues have received letters from individual ministers, saying: ''If you want to ask those questions, do it during estimates."
What did we do? We thought we would send a nice, friendly letter to the minister. In it, I said: "I am enclosing a series of questions..." -- which I just repeated. "These questions have been asked last year by way of order paper which your ministry declined to answer on the grounds that these questions would more properly be the subject of discussions during the committee deliberations of the ministry estimates.
"Such a reply I find totally unsatisfactory and indeed lacking any logical basis whatsoever. However, if it remains your intention that such a policy applies to the order paper questions which are herein enclosed, then I would like this letter to serve as notice" -- we said to the minister at that time -- "this letter to serve as notice of my expectation that you will provide answers to these questions in your opening statement of your ministry's estimates.
"These questions which I have placed on the order paper relate specifically to spending practices of your ministry. I trust you will agree that the members of the Legislature and the public at large have a right to an accounting of how the taxpayers' moneys are spent."
I thought the discussions were friendly. I see the minister and his officials are scrambling under the gallery. They are calling a huddle, in fact. What is going on?
How are we going to get answers? Do we have to get on our knees? Do we have to crawl across the aisle and ask the minister? Do we have to whisper in his ear to get some answers? What do we have to do?
The minister chose on this particular occasion not to answer our questions and therefore left us no alternative. I, on behalf of my colleagues, move under standing order 85, that the Chairman rise and report.
The Deputy Chairman: You are not really asking for the right thing under section 85. Do you want to continue committee discussion on the point?
Mr. Roy: I have made a motion, Mr. Chairman.
The Deputy Chairman: Mr. Roy moves that the committee rise and report.
10:31 p.m.
The committee divided on Mr. Roy's motion that the committee rise and report, which was negatived on the following vote:
Ayes 24; nays 49.
Mr. Roy: Mr. Chairman, considering the hour, I move the adjournment of the debate.
Hon. Mr. Wells: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: I would like to say that for about an hour and three quarters we have all stood around doing something different from the normal procedures of this House while the opposition waited for answers to questions they never put in the estimates. I think it is a rather strange spectacle for those who believe they want the business of this House to be carried on.
Mr. Roy: Mr. Chairman, for more than a year, my colleagues and I have been waiting for answers about the expenditure of public funds.
Interjections.
An hon. member: You tell us all about it, Albert --
The Deputy Chairman: Order. I have never had one day when I said "Order" so many times; and I have never had one day when this House has listened so poorly.
Mr. Roy: For a year, my colleagues and I have been waiting for answers about the expenditures of public funds.
Interjections.
Hon. Mr. Eaton: Why not wait around a bit more and ask questions?
Interjections.
Mr. Roy: Is the jock strap too tight?
Interjections.
Mr. Roy: If necessary, we will wait a lot longer because we insist on getting answers to these questions.
Hon. Mr. Grossman: Just wait until tomorrow.
Interjections.
The Deputy Chairman: Order.
On motion by Hon, Mr. Wells, the committee of supply reported progress.
The House adjourned at 10:36 p.m.