CONTENTS
Monday 26 April 1993
Election of Chair
STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Chair / Président:
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président:
*Conway, Sean G. (Renfrew North/-Nord L)
*Cooper, Mike (Kitchener-Wilmot ND)
*Fawcett, Joan M. (Northumberland L)
*Huget, Bob (Sarnia ND)
*Jordan, Leo (Lanark-Renfrew PC)
*Klopp, Paul (Huron ND)
Kormos, Peter (Welland-Thorold ND)
Murdock, Sharon (Sudbury ND)
*Offer, Steven (Mississauga North/-Nord L)
*Turnbull, David (York Mills PC)
Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay/Muskoka-Baie-Georgienne ND)
*Wood, Len (Cochrane North/-Nord ND)
*In attendance / présents
Substitutions present / Membres remplaçants présents:
Johnson, Paul R. (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings/Prince Edward-Lennox-Hastings-Sud ND) for Mr Waters
Martin, Tony (Sault Ste Marie ND) for Mr Waters
Wilson, Gary (Kingston and The Islands/Kingston et Les Îles ND) for Mr Kormos
Also taking part / Autres participants et participantes:
Bradley, James J. (St Catharines L)
Harnick, Charles (Willowdale PC)
Kormos, Peter (Welland-Thorold ND)
Stockwell, Chris (Etobicoke West/-Ouest PC)
Tilson, David (Dufferin-Peel PC)
Clerk / Greffière: Manikel, Tannis
Staff / Personnel: Luski, Lorraine, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1529 in committee room 1.
ELECTION OF CHAIR
Mr David Turnbull (York Mills): I nominate Peter Kormos.
Clerk of the Committee (Ms Tannis Manikel): Mr Kormos has been nominated. Are there any further nominations for Chair of the committee?
Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I nominate Bob Huget.
Clerk of the Committee: Okay. Mr Huget.
Mr Steven Offer (Mississauga North): In absentia?
Mr Chris Stockwell (Etobicoke West): Where is he? You can't nominate a person who's not here.
Clerk of the Committee: Are there any further nominations?
Mr Turnbull: No? Okay, that's it. Okay, let's have a vote.
Clerk of the Committee: Hearing none, I declare the nominations closed. All those in favour of Mr Kormos --
Mr Mike Cooper (Kitchener-Wilmot): Can we go for a recess?
Clerk of the Committee: A 20-minute recess?
Mr Stockwell: Hold it.
Mr Offer: There's no 20-minute recess.
Interjection: Let's call the division.
Clerk of the Committee: Yes, but a member can request a 20-minute recess.
Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): Just on a point of order: According to the Hansard of April 13, 1993, the member for Sarnia, Mr Huget, who now stands nominated by the government to be the Chairman of a committee which in part is going to concern itself with the Ministry of Energy, is the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Environment and Energy. Clearly there's a conflict.
Clerk of the Committee: Excuse me. Before you go any further, as clerk of the committee I can't entertain any points of order.
Mr Conway: I just make the point to my colleagues in the committee that there's a clear conflict here, because we have a nomination from the government to put in the Chair of this committee the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Environment and Energy, two departmental responsibilities that are clearly going to come before this committee for discussion and debate. I'm sure that motion is out of order. I don't think it's possible.
Clerk of the Committee: I did indicate that I could not take any points of order and I'm just here to preside over the nomination and the election of the Chair.
Mr Cooper: Could we recess?
Clerk of the Committee: It's my understanding that a member can request a 20-minute recess before the vote is taken.
Mr Turnbull: No.
Interjection: It's not a vote.
Mr Stockwell: Yes, it's an election.
Mr Cooper: It's a vote.
Mr Stockwell: You can't adjourn.
Mr Cooper: On a vote.
Clerk of the Committee: Sorry. The standing orders just say that before a vote is taken a member may ask for a 20-minute recess.
Mr Stockwell: Right, but when you're in the middle of a vote, which you were in --
Interjection: No, we're not.
Mr Stockwell: You were just about to call for those in favour. It is not before a vote; you're in the midst of a vote.
Interjection: No way.
Mr Stockwell: Of course you are.
Clerk of the Committee: We hadn't actually started the vote before the request for the 20-minute recess.
Mr Turnbull: You've already started the vote.
Mr Stockwell: Well, I think we should get Instant Hansard just to see whether or not in fact you called for a vote at that time.
Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): If I may, I do want to indicate that I accept the nomination.
Mr Conway: I want to say to my friends in the government as they contemplate this that it's perfectly in order for the government, it seems to me, to nominate whomsoever it wishes, within this limit: The member for Sarnia is someone whom I know and quite like and quite respect, but surely the government members understand that it is inappropriate, and I believe wrong, to have in one and the same person the Chair of this resources committee and the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Environment and Energy. That is a conflict of interest that is so clear that it --
Clerk of the Committee: I just remind members that we are trying to nominate and elect the Chair of the committee at this point. There's been a request for a 20-minute recess. Do you still want that 20-minute recess?
Mr Cooper: Yes.
Clerk of the Committee: Okay, we'll recess for 20 minutes.
The committee recessed at 1532 and resumed at 1547.
Clerk of the Committee: If everyone's here, we can proceed with the vote.
Mr Offer: Madam Clerk, prior to the taking of the vote, could you please indicate who is eligible to vote on this matter for the resources committee? Give the names of the members, please.
Clerk of the Committee: The names of the members are -- I'll do this alphabetically from my list -- Mr Conway, Mr Cooper, Mrs Fawcett, Mr Huget, Mr Jordan, Mr Klopp, Mr Offer, Mr Turnbull and Mr Wood. I have substitutions: Mr Wilson for Mr Kormos, Mr Martin for Ms Murdock and Mr Johnson for Mr Waters.
Mr Offer: Madam Clerk, on that matter of the three substitutions, two of the individuals who are being substituted are not here. One of the other individuals happens to be here. I note in the rules of order, "The Clerk of the House shall post in the Legislative Building a list of members serving on each standing and select committee." As I was walking by the media room, the list fell down and I happen to have it with me. It has Mr Kormos as well as the others you have mentioned.
It says that the assembly is supreme in these matters. On 20 April of this year a motion was passed which indicated who was going to be on this resources committee. It did not indicate the Chair at this time, but it did indicate the name of Mr Kormos. Mr Kormos is in this room right now, and I would expect that Mr Kormos is prepared to vote on the matter before this committee.
It would seem that, keeping in mind the rules of committee, the way in which the Legislative Assembly has always been supreme in the matters which govern committees, that it says that the list shall be posted, that I have before myself the list as posted, that it does have Mr Kormos's name, I think Mr Kormos should be allowed to vote.
Clerk of the Committee: The practice has been that the substitution slips that are legitimately made under the standing orders take precedence over the member of the committee.
Mr Conway: But I don't ever recall a situation where an honourable member who is designated by a motion of the House to be a member of the committee -- there's no precedent in my mind and in my memory of a situation where somebody who has been properly designated by an order of the House to be a member of a committee comes to the committee, is freely willing to participate in the committee affairs, only to find out upon his or her arrival that he's being substituted for. Standing order 110(c) is very clear as to what the substitution rule intends.
Clerk of the Committee: Mr Conway, I'm going to interrupt you here. We really can't get into points of order. I'm just here to preside over the election of the Chair and we are at the start of the vote here.
Mr Kormos: No, Madam Clerk, please. Seeing as how I've become the subject of some contention, I think it's important that I state in what capacity I am here. In the event that the clerk had been misled, in the event that there is indeed less than an aboveboard substitute slip before the clerk, the clerk then has an important determination to make.
One, I tell you, Madam Clerk, that I was in the Legislative Assembly on Tuesday, April 20, 1993, when the government motion appointing members to the various committees was presented by the government House leader and was passed by the Legislature. I was the member contained in the government motion to participate in this committee.
Secondly, Madam Clerk, I never sought to be substituted for, and indeed I was here prior to 3:30, prior to the commencement of the proceedings.
Thirdly, Madam Clerk, you will recall that I was nominated by a member of this committee and indeed I indicated on record, simply so that the record could establish that I in fact was here, that I accepted the nomination. I did not hear at any point in time any objection from anybody about my capacity to accept that nomination or indeed to be nominated.
I understand what the practice may well be, but consider this, please, Madam Clerk. We have --
Clerk of the Committee: I'd just remind you I cannot make a ruling. I'm only here to preside over the election of the Chair and I really think we should get on to that point.
Mr Kormos: Of course you are, Madam Clerk, but I think it's important that if there is an irregularity as to who is here, I say to you, Madam Clerk, that is tantamount to, in the course of an election campaign, fraudulently putting people on a voters' list.
I tell you, Madam Clerk, I challenge the person who purports to be here on my behalf. I challenge and tell you that a substitution of that person for me is not only improper but it is fraudulent. It is an exercise not only in pettifoggery, but it is an exercise in an abuse, an attack, on the most basic rules of the House.
I say that to you, Madam Clerk, not to put you in that very difficult position. I don't ask you to make a ruling but I do ask you to consider what in fact the standing orders are. That doesn't constitute making or addressing a point of order, Madam Clerk. It's important, I think, that we clear the air as to in fact what the standing orders really say. I understand what you are saying, Madam Clerk, when you say what you have, but I tell you there is no precedent in this House or in the committee practice that would dictate that and indeed, Madam Clerk, precise and accurate reading of the standing orders would indicate clearly that standing order 110(c) talks about "temporary substitute," in contrast to the capacity of the government House leader under subsection (b) of standing order 110 to discharge a member from a committee.
The Legislative Assembly and the government House leader had three days in which to move that motion removing me. The motion placing me here having been passed on Tuesday, the government House leader had three days in which to remove me as a member of this committee by virtue of a motion in the House. The government House leader, as you well know, did not present a motion in that regard.
Now, I go one further, Madam Clerk, and I tell you there is something particularly repugnant happening here today because on Tuesday, after the House passed the motion appointing me to this committee, the whip of the government, Fred Wilson, advised me that I would not be Chair of this committee. That struck me as bizarre, Madam Clerk, because as you well know, chairs of committees are elected. I, for the life of me, cannot understand how a whip could predict the outcome of what should be a free and democratic election.
Mr Stockwell: A clairvoyant maybe?
Mr Kormos: It suggests to me, Madam Clerk --
Clerk of the Committee: I cannot take points of --
Mr Kormos: I had the floor, please, Madam Clerk. It suggests to me that the fix is in, that the jury's rigged. You will recall, of course, soon after this government was elected, when the Premier apologized to the public and to the House for the perception that he, the Premier, had attempted to influence the outcome of an election for Speaker.
I tell you it is insidious that a whip who would tell me on Tuesday afternoon, after the motion appointing me to this committee, that I will not be Chair, if that same whip would be construed as having the capacity to, ad hoc and by fiat, replace me on this committee and eliminate the power and authority that I had by virtue of the decision of the House, a motion passed last Tuesday. Surely that is the ultimate decision-maker.
We are not talking about a scenario wherein the House isn't sitting and access can't be had to a government motion pursuant to standing order 110, subsection (b). We are not talking about a circumstance where I am absent. We're not talking about a circumstance where I have indicated to the whip that I would be unavailable and that I would seek the courtesy of a substitute. As well, we are clearly talking about a circumstance --
Clerk of the Committee: Mr Kormos, at this point I think we should go on with the vote.
Mr Kormos: We are clearly talking about a circumstance wherein --
Clerk of the Committee: The nomination is that you be elected Chair of the committee, and that's what --
Mr Conway: I want to add to the issue I raised earlier. I think that there is something illegitimate in the government --
Mr Paul Klopp (Huron): There is not.
Mr Conway: Hear me out. I think it is an illegitimate proposition for the government to nominate a member of the executive branch to serve as a Chairman of this committee. I think that is certainly inappropriate. It does not conform with the practices of this Legislature in the modern period.
I think there is, furthermore, a very real issue for all members of the Legislature, because what the previous speaker, the member for Welland-Thorold, has just said very clearly is that he is willing to discharge his duties as a member of this committee. He was appointed by government motion, concurred in by the House, just a week ago. He has been a member of this committee. He was previously Chair of this committee. He arrives here today to carry out the obligations that the House imposed upon him with the order of April 20 and now he is being substituted for in a way that is, I think, irregular and quite inappropriate. When one looks at standing order 110, it is very clear what the rules of substitution are.
I would recommend that since we have a couple of very central points, this committee recess until we can get some further direction from the Clerk of the House. Quite frankly, I think the respective caucuses should retire and talk this over, because this is really a serious matter and one that we ought to think about before we proceed further.
I take very seriously what Mr Kormos has said and, furthermore, I think it is completely inappropriate that a parliamentary assistant for a set of ministries that are going to come before this very committee for important matters should be even a candidate for the chairmanship. I said earlier I think the member for Sarnia is a very fine fellow, but he will be, should he take on the position as Chair of this committee, in a clear conflict of interest. The government members and the government clearly understand that.
But I would recommend to the committee, since these shenanigans has put our clerk in a very, very difficult position, I think we should retire and get some direction from the clerk.
Clerk of the Committee: Mr Conway, as I stated before, we cannot proceed with any points of order at this time.
Mr Stockwell: But, Madam Clerk, I would like to say just one point.
Clerk of the Committee: We are in the middle of a vote.
Mr Stockwell: No, Madam Clerk, we were not in the middle of a vote.
Clerk of the Committee: Mr Kormos has been nominated.
Mr Stockwell: Madam Clerk, we weren't in the middle of a vote 20 minutes ago when you adjourned this meeting for 20 minutes.
Clerk of the Committee: We did not adjourn the committee; we recessed.
Mr Stockwell: We recessed it for 20 minutes. Now we appear to be in the middle of a vote. If we're in the middle of a vote now, we should never have taken the 20-minute recess.
The point that I would like to make, Madam Clerk, is that the difficulty we have here is that there is no place this committee can appeal any ruling because there is no Chair. It is leaving you in an untenable position to try to deal with the legal wranglings of this committee. Madam Clerk, there are some very real concerns here, itemized by Mr Kormos himself, itemized by the member for Renfrew North, and it's important that you ensure that democracy is upheld, that the legalities of this situation are maintained.
Now if this committee at this time does not have a Chair -- and there is no Chair -- there is no place that anyone may appeal a ruling of this committee prior to a Chair being appointed. It seems that it is incumbent on you as the clerk to recess this and get directions or get the ruling from the Speaker of the House, because these particular concerns raised by the opposition members and one member of the government have made it very clear that the rules are being breached, in our opinion, by the government and the government members.
Until we can receive a ruling from a body, be it the Chair or be it the Speaker himself, we insist an adjournment take place and for you to retrace your steps and get a ruling from the Speaker or whomever it may be that you seek your ruling from, because clearly we believe that the privileges of a standing member of this committee are being severely impinged upon by this government. I ask you to go and seek advice on exactly how we should rule previous to having a Chair before this committee.
Clerk of the Committee: I remind all members that as clerk of the committee I can only preside over the election of the Chair. I cannot take any points of order or any motion. I'm going to put the question. Mr Kormos has been --
Mr Offer: There is no point of order before yourself, Madam Clerk. There is no point of order. What we are asking for is that, after hearing from the member the subject matter of this matter, it is clear that we are talking about an issue which affects all members. There is an overt action by the government to censure a member outside of the Legislative Assembly. That is something which affects every member in this Legislature and every member who will ever be a member of this Legislature.
When there is an issue of censureship, we believe it is only a matter which can take place, if at all, through the Legislative Assembly. It cannot take place through a committee, and that is what is happening here.
Clerk of the Committee: It does not appear we can get to a vote, so I am going to have to disperse the committee this time and we can try to meet again at another time.
Mr Offer: And we should go to the Clerk.
Mr Turnbull: Madam Chair, I would move a 20-minute recess.
Clerk of the Committee: No, the committee's dispersed.
Mr Turnbull: Madam Chair, you gave it before when we said it was not appropriate.
Mr Conway: I think this whole business has put the clerk in an untenable position and I'm happy to be --
Mr Stockwell: Shenanigans have forced this.
The committee adjourned at 1602.