Legislative Assembly of Ontario

Special report, Auditor General:
Ornge Air Ambulance and

The committee met at 0904 in room 151, following a closed session.

SPECIAL REPORT, AUDITOR GENERAL: ORNGE AIR AMBULANCE
AND RELATED SERVICES

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay, we’re in open session now.

Mr. Frank Klees: Chair, I have a couple of motions that I’d like to move, please.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. Mr. Klees, go ahead.

Mr. Frank Klees: I move that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts request of the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care a copy of the report entitled Critical Care Land Ambulance Program Review, Deloitte Final Report – August 27, 2013, and that the report be tabled with this committee no later than this Friday, December 6, 2013.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Yes, France?

M^me France Gélinas: Can I ask for a friendly amendment to his motion that would add something of the sort that the document be provided in an electronic searchable format? Is this friendly enough?

Mr. Frank Klees: Very friendly. In fact, I can’t believe I didn’t think of it myself.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): Searchable electronic and pdf?

Mr. Frank Klees: Yes.

M^me France Gélinas: To me, as long as it’s in a searchable electronic format, I will work with whatever they give me.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Yes, Helena?

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Simply that this is something that was in the original auditor’s report, I guess the second recommendation related to this critical land ambulance program. We certainly heard from Dr. McCallum that he was looking at all aspects—and I think it’s important for us to have it as well, so I’m totally in favour of getting it so we can perhaps have a little more insight into this aspect. We know locally, certainly in my municipality in York region, that this is something that our York region EMS is very, very interested in. They feel that they may be able to provide a lot more service in this area. So I’m very interested in this aspect.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Any other comments? No? First, we’re voting on the amendment. All in favour of the amendment? Carried.

The motion, as amended: All in favour? Carried.

Mr. Klees.

Mr. Frank Klees: The second motion is: I move that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts request of the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care a copy of the report entitled Investigation of Ornge and Related Entities: Forensic Investigation Team, and that it be tabled with this committee no later than Friday, December 6, 2013.

I would ask my colleague Ms. Gélinas to add her friendly amendment.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Ms. Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: Can I do a friendly amendment?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Yes, go ahead.

M^me France Gélinas: That the responsive document be provided in an electronic, searchable format.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. Ms. Jaczek?

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Just to clarify, this is the final report that you’re looking at? My understanding is that the interim report that we heard about from Mr. Tait, I believe, from the Ministry of Finance—Allen Tait came and he described a little bit of the chronology. On December 22, 2011, the minister requested the forensic audit. They got busy, and by February 2012, they presented to the minister and the ministry an interim report that was what drove her, whatever she saw there, to in fact call in the OPP. My understanding is that from then on, the final report was developed and delivered to the ministry in June-July 2012, and at that point, because the OPP was already involved, the deputy minister forwarded it directly to the OPP without actually reading it, as we’ve heard.

Frank, I guess what you’re after is, in fact, that final report. The question is, would they even have retained a copy at the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care? In other words, you’re requesting it from the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care; I’m wondering if it shouldn’t be the Ministry of Finance. Who has it now?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Will, did you want to add a comment?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): Yes. When I was asked to draft the motion yesterday, I contacted the Ministry of Health to get the title of the report and this was the title of the final report they gave me. Based on how I drafted the motion, I would assume that the ministry has a copy of the report—or can get a copy of the report.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: I see. That was the only issue I had, because from what I understood, we heard the minister say that it was over to the OPP, and there was enough in the interim report—and Mr. Tait gave us an overview of what was in that interim report—that from then on, it was sort of hands-off. We’re all in favour of getting the report. I’m just wondering if that’s the right source.

0910

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay, and Will just said if you want to ask the Ministry of Health and/or the Ministry of Finance, that’s fine as well. Yes, France?

M^me France Gélinas: I guess I would like to make his motion a little bit wider, so asking for more friendly amendments. I would prefer to ask for the production of all documents related to the Investigation of Ornge and Related Entities: Forensic Investigation Team, as in, I wouldn’t mind seeing the interim report, seeing what has changed between the interim—as well as all the related documents, so that we see how much work was done after the interim report was tabled with the government.

So two things: One, can we do a request to the government so that we don’t have to name the ministry?

Interjection.

M^me France Gélinas: We have to name the ministry? Okay. So my first friendly amendment would be to the Ministry of Health and/or Finance, because auditing is under finance. Am I right, Will?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): Correct.

M^me France Gélinas: Okay, and that it not only be the final report but it will be all the documents from the forensic investigation team.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Frank?

Mr. Frank Klees: I won’t accept that as a friendly amendment, and the reason is—I support what France is requesting, but I would prefer that she move her own amendment to expand it.

M^me France Gélinas: Okay.

Mr. Frank Klees: The reason is that once we get into broader documentation, it’s going to take some time for them to pull that together.

Delivering the report should not be an issue, and I think we should be able to expect that that would be presented to us by Friday. So I’ll support an amendment to broaden it—

M^me France Gélinas: Okay. How about I just do a separate motion, then, for the broader stuff? I’ll support yours, and then I’ll go with—

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Can you withdraw your amendment that you just made then, please?

M^me France Gélinas: I withdraw.

Mr. Frank Klees: I will accept the friendly amendment on mine to expand it to the Ministry of Finance or the Ministry—can I perhaps make an adjustment to amend my motion?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): We should probably start from scratch, then, because we have too many things going on right now, so let’s—

Mr. Frank Klees: Because Helena raises an important point, and that is that I really should be requesting both the interim report and the final report. In both cases, it shouldn’t be an issue of getting it here on Friday.

M^me France Gélinas: We’ll do them one at a time. Do the final, do the interim.

Mr. Frank Klees: We’ll do the final, and then we’ll do the interim.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Yes, so let’s read what the motion is now.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): The friendly amendment from Madame Gélinas that needs to be dealt with first is, “And that the document be provided in electronic and searchable format,” along with now the request is going to the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care and/or the Ministry of Finance. We have Mr. Klees’s original motion, which was, “I move that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts request of the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care and/or the Ministry of Finance a copy of the report entitled Investigation of Ornge and Related Entities: Forensic Investigation Team.” We need to vote on the amendment by Madame Gélinas first and then the main motion.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Any more discussion?

All in favour of the amendment? Carried.

And then the motion, as amended: All in favour? Carried.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): Okay, so now we can deal with the other ones.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Ms. Gélinas?

M^me France Gélinas: Frank, do you want to move a motion?

Mr. Frank Klees: Go ahead.

M^me France Gélinas: Okay. I will move that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts request from the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care and/or Finance the production of the interim report and all documents related to the investigation of the Ornge—I’ll just do the interim report now—production of the interim report from the forensic investigation team done by the government between December 1, 2011, and we’ll say, December 4, 2013, because I don’t know the exact date.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): Can I grab that off of you?

M^me France Gélinas: You can. Would you like a whole bunch of copies?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): Sure.

M^me France Gélinas: And it goes on: that this document be provided by December 6 and be provided in an electronic, searchable format.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): We’ll take a five-minute recess just to get this figured out here.

The committee recessed from 0916 to 0923.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay, we’re back in session, then. Ms. Gélinas, you wanted to read the whole—now that everyone has a copy of this motion before us, do you want to read it into the record?

M^me France Gélinas: I move that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts request of the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care and/or the Ministry of Finance a copy of the February 2012 interim report from the forensic investigation team related to Ornge air ambulance and related services and that this document be provided in an electronic searchable format no later than Friday, December 6, 2013.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Any discussion?

All in favour? Carried.

Was there one more motion that you wish to do?

M^me France Gélinas: Yes.

Did you take copies of it?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): No, I didn’t.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay, Ms. Gélinas, did you want to—

M^me France Gélinas: Well, I think we’ve talked about it quite a bit. We know that this interim report exists and—

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Sorry. Do you want to read the motion into the record, please?

M^me France Gélinas: Did we vote on the other one already?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Yes.

M^me France Gélinas: Okay. Gilles distracted me. I’m so sorry.

Mr. Bill Mauro: You didn’t vote for your own motion?

M^me France Gélinas: Yes, I did.

Okay, here we go. I move that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts request from the Ministry of Health and/or Finance the production of all documents related to the Investigation of Ornge and Related Entities: Forensic Investigation Team, done by the government between December 1, 2011, and December 4, 2013, that these documents be provided within 30 days of this motion passing and that responsive documents be provided in an electronic searchable format.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Ms. Jaczek.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Okay. The general intent—no problem at all. Presumably some of this will already have been released. I guess this is where I’m a little hazy, in terms of all the documentation that was requested previously. Obviously, I wasn’t here in 2012, so it’s difficult for me to understand what was released originally. Anyway, that’s my first question. Maybe the Clerk can respond.

The second piece is, there’s an OPP investigation ongoing. How would you see some of these documents being treated? We don’t want to jeopardize whatever the OPP is up to. So I don’t quite know how—obviously, held confidentially for the committee only, or can we sort of narrow that a little bit?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): With other sensitive documents, the committee has received them and kept them confidential and then decided how to deal with them.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: How to handle it.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): How to handle them, what they want to release after they have seen them.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Even if it’s related to an OPP investigation? I know we have incredible powers as this committee, but—

Interruption.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Is this a quorum?

M^me France Gélinas: No. It’s a 30-minute bell.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: So I guess my question is, even requesting, if it’s related to an OPP investigation, is there any sort of extra protection needed other than being kept confidential only to members of the committee?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): I think we’ve had documents that have been part of the OPP investigation previous to this, and we’ve just met as a committee. In most cases we decided to keep them in a sealed room with the Clerk, and members have had an opportunity to look at them. In most cases, we haven’t released them, at least not the sensitive documents.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Right, but what about previous—how much documentation was requested of the ministry in 2012? Is this not a repeat in some way?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Go ahead, Will.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): Well, I guess France will want to speak to her motion. I would assume that the way that the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Finance would decipher this motion would be that it would just be documents related to this investigation. I think that’s the purpose of the motion, and if that’s the case, we have, as a committee, unless something has come to the committee and it hasn’t been brought to our attention that this was part of the forensic audit or a forensic investigation. So they would have to tell the committee that this was part of the forensic investigation that was then sent to the OPP. You guys would then deal with those documents. I’m assuming it would come in saying, “We want these to be held confidential.” You guys would then deal with them like you have in the past, however you want to deal with these confidential documents as a committee.

0930

Ms. Helena Jaczek: And when you refer to all documents, I presume you mean emails or any possible document.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): Why don’t you let France explain her motion?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): France?

M^me France Gélinas: The idea is really to look at, when the documents were received, what was actioned off. I have no problem respecting the OPP investigation. I want this investigation to be successful, believe you me, as much as everybody else in this room, I assure you. If there are some documents that have already been shared with us, I assume that when they write to us, the cover letter will say, “Refer to whatever we’ve sent you before,” if this has happened.

I usually look at the documents that we receive. I usually read most of them. I may have missed something, but I don’t remember anything pertaining to that particular audit. But if there was, I would be quite comfortable with a cover letter saying, “Refer to the bundle that we sent you on such a date or such a date” that was from this, and it didn’t hit our radar that this was where it came from. The idea was really to see, when the interim report was received, what was actioned off and who it was actioned off to.

The minister certainly said that this was what triggered her to call the OPP. If there is documentation pertaining to this, I would like it to be shared. That’s why we’ve given it a little bit more time, because this will require—I certainly don’t expect them to resend us the final report and resend us the interim report, which will come from the other two motions, but I expect to see a little bit that they’ve opened the envelope, they’ve read the report, “Here’s my read on the report,” that kind of stuff.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Okay.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Frank, did you have a comment?

Mr. Frank Klees: I think just for clarity, I would suggest that when Will sends that request to the ministries, he include a copy of the transcript of Hansard, which gives Ms. Gélinas’s explanation as to what her expectation is in that motion.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Jagmeet, you had a comment?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Yes, thank you so much. Just to put it in a little bit of perspective in terms of the OPP investigation, first and foremost, everything that happened at Ornge was done with multiple and countless legal opinions. Just to be very frank and honest, the likelihood of any sort of criminal charges being laid because of the OPP investigation, I think, is very slim, given the fact that there were so many lawyers involved all the way through.

Secondly, the standard that the OPP investigation is held to would be proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Even if they come forward with very, very damning information that is brought before the court and charges are laid, they could easily be acquitted because proof beyond a reasonable doubt is a very high standard. But as people who are holding the government to account, we can actually say, “Listen, there is some serious impropriety here. There’s some serious mishandling here. There are some serious mistakes that were made.” We can say that’s far more effective and far more beneficial for the citizens of Ontario than what the OPP can do in a lot of ways, because we don’t have a standard. We’re just saying, “Was it done properly or not,” not whether it was up to the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think that our work here, for accountability purposes, is far more important, because we have a much broader range. We shouldn’t in any way be worried about the OPP investigation because, as a committee, we have the full power to say, “This document is too sensitive. It should not be released. This document can be released to the public.” We can control that end of it. In terms of the accountability, we have a far more powerful role than the OPP investigation ever could have.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Frank?

Mr. Frank Klees: Chair, just for the record, I couldn’t disagree more with Mr. Singh when he expresses his view that it’s highly unlikely that charges will be laid. I fully expect that criminal charges will be laid based on the information that we have received over the course of the last two years here. I can tell you that if they’re not, I will be extremely disappointed. After two years of investigation, I would fully expect that the full force of the law will be exercised.

In fact, to that point, I would ask that we send a letter to the commissioner of the OPP and that we thank him for his appearance here at the committee, when he provided us with an update. In that testimony, he advised us that he expects that their investigation would be complete by the end of the year. I would ask that we request an update, a status report, on their report, on their investigation, and, if there’s a new timeline, what that might be, to the best of his ability to estimate. He was very forthcoming as a witness—

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. That’s a different matter. If you want to make another motion, that’s fine. Let’s finish with the motion that we were discussing. Is there any more debate on it? Mr. Mauro.

Mr. Bill Mauro: I guess I just wanted to say, in regard to Mr. Singh’s comments—I mean, whether or not, as a practising lawyer, his opinion is accurate beyond a reasonable doubt, I don’t think that’s really the issue or the point. I think the point is how this committee handles documents that may or may not prejudice an ongoing OPP investigation. I think that’s the point. Whether Mr. Singh’s position proves to be accurate or Mr. Klees’s position proves to be accurate, I think, doesn’t have a whole lot of relevance to what we’re dealing with today.

The request for documents and how the committee deals with them is the issue, and the potential for those documents to prejudice an ongoing OPP investigation. I think that’s the only piece that we need to be mindful of as we make our decisions on how we’re going to support or not support the request for documents.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. Yes, Mr. Klees?

Mr. Frank Klees: To that point, and I think we all agree with that—

Mr. Bill Mauro: Apparently not.

Mr. Frank Klees: I mean, the last thing that we want to do is prejudice that investigation. This committee, over the last two years, has dealt with very sensitive information. We have always agreed that we would keep documents in confidence where we feel that there may be some implication to that, and I would expect we’d deal the same way with this document that we’re requesting now.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. Jagmeet?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: I guess my point may have been lost, so I think I should clarify. My point is that it’s paramount that we, as a committee, do as much as we can and look at as many documents as possible, because our role, in terms of accountability, is the most important role. It’s more important than anyone else’s role, our role here, for accountability.

That was my point of saying the standard of proof: that our role is very important, because we don’t have that same standard of proof. That’s the only reason why I mentioned that, and not because I’m saying that we want to prejudice the report. I’m just saying it’s because our role here is so important, and because our role is so important, that’s why we should release documents.

Then, in terms of how we deal with it, we’ve already dealt with many sensitive documents, and we can make that decision in terms of what can be released to the public and what should be kept in the committee. We’ve made those decisions before, so I think we’re in a good position to continue to do that.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. Are we ready for a vote on this motion? Very good.

All in favour? Carried.

So do you still have—you had another motion?

Mr. Frank Klees: Yes. I would like to make this a motion: that the committee send a letter to the commissioner of the OPP, expressing our appreciation for his appearance before the committee and providing us with an update on the status of the investigation into Ornge, and that, given his advice to us that they expect the investigation to be completed by the end of this year, seeing as we are at the end of this year, we would appreciate an update on when we might expect to hear from the OPP on their conclusion—and to provide as many details as he would feel comfortable in providing, such as the number of witnesses who have been interviewed to date. I think that will suffice.

Interjection.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): We need to recess for five minutes, and I assume the committee cannot sit when there is a vote happening.

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. William Short): No. You have to give everyone at least five or six minutes—

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. So we’ll take five minutes now to get this written, then.

The committee recessed from 0940 to 0943.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay, we’re back in open session. I believe you all have a copy of the motion, which I’ll now get Mr. Klees to read into the record, please.

Mr. Frank Klees: I move that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts send a letter to the commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police (Chris Lewis) asking for an update on the ongoing investigation of Ornge air ambulance.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Any discussion?

M^me France Gélinas: A friendly amendment, but I don’t know if it’s necessary: “Ornge air ambulance and all of its subsidiaries,” because he didn’t only look at—does “Ornge air ambulance” cover the 17 other companies?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): We think it’s one investigation, so it likely shouldn’t be needed.

M^me France Gélinas: Okay. I’m good, then.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. All in favour? Carried.

I believe we’re finished what we needed to do in open session, so we will go in camera now. We’re going into closed session.

The committee continued in closed session at 0945 and resumed at 1241.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): We’re in open session. Mr. Klees, you have a motion you’d like to move?

Mr. Frank Klees: I move that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, pursuant to standing order 110(b), whereby each committee shall have power to send for persons, papers and things, call Deb Matthews, the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, to testify before this committee at 9 a.m. on Wednesday, December 11, 2013.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Comments? Ms. Jaczek.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Yes, Chair. I would like to request a recess of 10 minutes to review this motion.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Very well, we’ll recess for 10 minutes.

The committee recessed from 1242 to 1252.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): We’re back in open session, then. We were discussing the motion put forward by Mr. Klees. Any comments on that? Ms. Jaczek.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Yes. The minister, as I understand it, is happy to attend. We can pass this, but it’s really quite unnecessary. She’s perfectly prepared to come anyway. We will obviously be voting in favour.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Mr. Klees.

Mr. Frank Klees: Thank you. I’m glad to hear that. Shall we have the vote on this, then? Then I’d like to speak to the format for the actual—or would you like to do that now?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Sure, if you’re done discussing it.

All in favour? Carried. Very well.

M^me France Gélinas: I kind of wanted to make a comment, but—

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Go ahead. Make your comment.

M^me France Gélinas: I think the events that came in the press were quite disappointing. We’ve put in a lot of time with Ornge. We’re trying to go to the bottom of things. We all know that the main trigger for the minister was the salary. The media report about new amounts for salary dating all the way back to 2006 was rather shocking to me. I spent a lot of time looking at Dr. Mazza’s expenses. We spent a lot of time requesting all information having to do with his salary. I remember poring through the OHIP report we got—his stipend, his loan, his T4—looking through all of that. Yet I never came up with the $9.3 million; I never came up with the—I forget—$286,000, $258,000 amount that the papers that were shared with us said he made in 2006. Yet we read in the papers that this was not the case.

I would sort of open the door to say I may want a little bit of a follow-up with whoever is in charge of the sunshine list as to how many other people who are covered by the sunshine list actually report something there that we find out later is not the right amount. I’m just opening up this door, depending on how much we learn from the Minister of Health, that I may be interested in going that way. This perturbs me. This is a law. He did disclose his salary, and then seven years later we found out that what he disclosed was not the right amount, yet nobody picked that up for seven years.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. Helena?

Ms. Helena Jaczek: I share France Gélinas’s concerns. The way that I understand the sunshine list works, at least in my experience in the regional municipality of York, is that, in that case, it is the employer who is responsible to create the list and to publicly disclose it. I presume that there are penalties for some false posting of those salaries by that employer. I think it’s worth exploring further because, the way I would see it, it would have been the original Ontario Air Ambulance, that initial corporation, that was responsible for the validity of that list. I don’t think that anyone goes in—maybe the Auditor General can explain if anyone goes into those employers’ records and sort of searches, or if there’s any kind of checking. I’ve always heard—at least the way the region of York worked—that it was incumbent on them to truthfully disclose the earnings of their employees. So the failure would be on the original—when Mazza was subject to the sunshine list, it was the Ornge Air Ambulance corporation, and that organization was clearly, if what we read in the newspaper is true, at fault.

M^me France Gélinas: I agree with everything you said. The next point is: How come it wasn’t caught sooner?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. The motion has passed. This is just general discussion right now. Mr. Klees, did you want to—

Mr. Frank Klees: Yes, I’d like to speak to the format of the day when the minister comes. The Clerk will send the letter extending the invitation for 9 o’clock. I would like the entire time to be given to members of this committee to ask their questions. I’m perfectly fine with giving the minister a two-minute statement before questions, but that’s the extent to which I want to hear the minister make her statement. We only have a limited amount of time, and I think it’s important that we have an opportunity to ask the minister the questions.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Is the committee proposing the 9-until-10:20 slot on Wednesday?

Mr. Frank Klees: That’s my proposal, and that the time be divided equally.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay, very well. Ms. Jaczek.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: I don’t see that the minister would object to making a very short statement. I’m sure she’ll reiterate what she said in the House during question period, that the interim report was, in fact, part of the documents that were forwarded to this committee previously. I imagine that’s the thrust of your interest as well, so I can’t see that her opening statement will need to be lengthy.

Mr. Frank Klees: Well, if we already know what the minister’s statement is going to be, that the interim report was part of what the committee has already received, then I would ask that research provide us with that evidence. I’m not going to sit here and have the minister tell the committee that we received that report, when everything I know is that we did not receive that report. If Ray would undertake that and provide us with whatever evidence that we, in fact, did receive that report.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Any further discussion? Ms. Jaczek.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Just as a courtesy, if we could say that the minister gives us five minutes of an opening statement, I don’t think that’s going to detract from the questioning. I don’t want to prejudge what she is coming to say, but I think she deserves that kind of courtesy.

Mr. Frank Klees: With all due respect, Chair, it’s my motion. I don’t want to hear from the minister for five minutes. Everything I’ve heard from the minister over the last number of weeks is nothing but equivocation and self-defence. I don’t want to waste any time here in this committee hearing more of that. I’m simply saying that I’m prepared to give her two minutes, and if that has to go to a vote, then let’s do that.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Ms. Jaczek?

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Is there any protocol that exists for committees in terms of appearance of witnesses and their ability to make some sort of opening statement?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): It’s the committee’s decision, and it has changed throughout the process, Ms. Jaczek—although I think it would be nice if we could have agreement on this simple three-minute discrepancy.

Mr. Frank Klees: Three minutes in the life of this minister is a lot of time.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: I would think she could speak very, very quickly in two minutes. It’s probably about 250 words.

I would say two minutes is fine. I don’t want to prolong this discussion.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Very well. Then I think we’re done with that, and we can go into closed session to do report-writing. We shall go into closed session now.

The committee continued in closed session from 1300 to 1403.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): We’re back in open session. We have a motion from Ms. Jaczek. Go ahead.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Thank you, Chair. I move that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts request from Ornge and the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care, within 30 days of the passage of this motion, a chart summarizing the totals and types of payments received by Chris Mazza from any Ornge entity and the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care between 2003 and 2012, including compensation (base salary, performance payments, medical stipends), loans, and expenses such as credit card payments.

May I give you some rationale behind our motion?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Yes, please.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: The motion is really in order to assist us all in having a distilled package of all information related to Chris Mazza’s salary and expenses. In response to a motion by a former government member of this committee, now Minister Sandals, these materials were provided to the committee, but as we’ve heard, the volume of the materials is such that in order to be helpful we’re thinking that this could all be collated for us in this way and it would be better to go this way than to have someone go through all those boxes at this point—in other words, to ask for the information again in this kind of distilled format so that we would have this readily available to us going forward.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Thank you. Ms. Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: We’ve put a motion forward like this, and we already have that information available to us, plus more. Remember, when we passed the motion—and we should pull it out—we also asked for OHIP payments and also got that. I think the only difference would be that we didn’t go back to 2003, but that exercise by Ornge has already been completed and that information is already available to us and this committee has already had quite a bit of a chat with whatever information Ornge was able to provide at the time.

I would say that if there’s new information that has become available since they last provided that, then I’m open to that. I think that would be a better use of their time and my time. I can share those papers. I already have them and have looked at them.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Ms. Jaczek?

Ms. Helena Jaczek: I think this is a desire to ensure that what has been provided is the totality of the information, as I understand it. If you have something in a format which puts it all together, I agree. We’ve heard bits and pieces through the time, but I haven’t really seen it all consolidated, so the desire is to try and make this readily available.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): And the chart that you describe in this motion?

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Yes.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. Mr. Klees?

Mr. Frank Klees: Are you finished?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Are you finished—

M^me France Gélinas: Go ahead, and then I’ll finish.

Mr. Frank Klees: Go ahead.

M^me France Gélinas: Okay. Then the motion is not complete, because we have done this exercise before. Not only did Dr. Mazza get base salary, performance payments, medical stipends, he also billed OHIP and he also received money through—I’m going by memory and I forget, but there’s another source of funding that went to Dr. Mazza. I think it would be useful to pull the original motion to compare it. The original motion, I think, was more complete than what we have here or we could direct them to interpret the motion as widely as possible. But you’re missing OHIP in here for sure.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Go ahead, Ms. Jaczek.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: I think we did request OHIP billings, but it was as a separate motion. I’m not quite sure which motion you’re referring to that was similar to this. In the time I’ve been here, for the last year, I haven’t seen it all detailed on one page.

Mr. Frank Klees: That was a January 8, 2012, motion that I have here.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): You have the motion there, Mr. Klees?

Mr. Frank Klees: Yes. There were actually two tabled on January 8, 2012. The first one reads, “That the Standing Committee on Public Accounts request from Ornge a chronologically ordered copy of all documents (including, but not limited to, agreements, invoices or receipts) relating to all payments from all Ornge entities going to Dr. Chris Mazza or his personal corporation,” which also is a nuance to the motion, “(including, but not limited to, compensation, medical stipends, research grants and loans) from 2003 to 2012.”

The second motion that day reads, “That the Standing Committee on Public Accounts request a copy of all documents relating to any interest and/or principal payments provided by any Ornge entity from Dr. Chris Mazza or made by him to any Ornge entity from 2003 to 2012.”

So to Ms. Gélinas’s point, I think there are some nuances that the original motion contained that are missing here, and if we’re going to go through this process, then I think we should get it done right, which is why I would also want to include in this motion not only payments from any Ornge entity but also including any hospital or medical clinic, because we know that Dr. Mazza was also under contract to a couple of hospitals, and I don’t know if saying “Ministry of Health” would actually capture that.

1410

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Ms. Jaczek.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: I certainly have no objection to expanding it. I think this is what, again, in the public interest, people want to know: to have a complete picture of everything. If that’s sort of a friendly amendment to expand it, I still—I know you had a request for this information. The minister has confirmed that it was sent, but I don’t know if it was sent in a useful format. If we can get it quicker by asking our researcher to go through the 43 boxes and find this all put together, that’s fine. But I think it would be almost easier at this point to have this type of motion—and it’s a very clear direction—arrive in a format that is comprehensive and easy, at a glance, to see.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Ms. Gélinas?

M^me France Gélinas: A big part of this work has already been done, and we have just requested the information from the forensic audit. For all we know, when we open up the forensic audit, they may have done this work. Because of the amount of time, effort and energy it took us to go through what we had received, I would hate to burden Ornge with going through an exercise like this, just to find out, at the very end—“Oh, look at this. We had a chart in the forensic auditor’s final report that had already tabled all of those. Thank you for the hundreds of thousands of hours you’ve spent on our request. It wasn’t really needed. Thank you, guys.” Am I the only one worried about sending Ornge on a chase?

How about we say that we’re supposed to get the forensic audit stuff by Friday. If, by Friday, we don’t see such a chart, we ask Ornge to repackage for us the information they’ve already sent us, casting as broad a net as possible. But even then, some of the stuff he did for—I forget which hospital it was; one of the big orthopedic hospitals down here.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Mount Sinai.

M^me France Gélinas: Mount Sinai. I don’t think Ornge would have access to that. It’s Mount Sinai that would have access to this. For some of the work he did get paid for, I’m not sure Ornge is the right—it’s the same thing: Everything he did for OHIP, Ornge doesn’t have access to this. What he did for Mount Sinai, Ornge doesn’t have access to. Ornge has access to what they paid him. His net of money-grabbing extended way beyond.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: I think the intention of the motion is to extend the limit of the capacity of Ornge and the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care to what they could collate. That really is the essence of this. If it’s in the forensic audit, nicely packaged for us, obviously this would not be necessary.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Yes, Frank?

Mr. Frank Klees: I would agree. Look, I want as much information as we can possibly get. On the one hand, I appreciate the gesture from the government members on this, but we do have information that’s readily available. Exhibit 2030058 that we all got in that dump specifically refers to compensation T4s, T4As, loans, expenses, medical stipend, director fees—that’s here. I think what’s at issue and the reason that we’re continuing our discussions here, and particularly in light of Mr. Kevin Donovan’s article that caught the attention of the minister, where she said this was the first time that she saw the figure of some $9.4 million—this information doesn’t come close to $9.4 million. The most that we could find in going through all of the documents—T4s and the stipends and so on—is somewhere in the range of $5.6 million. So there’s about $4 million missing that Mr. Donovan reported.

To Ms. Gélinas’s point, the one thing that I have not seen in any of the documents is the forensic audit report, either the interim—certainly we don’t have a final. That, we should have by Friday afternoon, assuming that we get co-operation from whoever has that. I would think that all of the information that’s being requested in this motion would, in fact, be in those reports.

The gap that we have before us as a committee, I think, is that we don’t have that information. I have no problem passing a motion here as long as we include those other nuances that are missing here and get them on. But I think to be practical, we should also issue it, then, to the ministry, with the caveat that we will wait to see the documentation we get from our initial request before sending them off to do unnecessary work.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Ms. Jaczek.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: I’d be happy with that kind of caveat. I think it’s only reasonable. If somebody has done this and it’s in a form that we can look at in the final report, the forensic investigation, that would be fine. It’s simply intended so that we all are looking at the same information and we’re clear on what we do know. Even if there are potentially gaps, this is going to be stunning enough, so to speak.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): We need to take a recess to re-draft the motion, then.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: To add—

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): To add this caveat and the nuance that you’re talking about. How much time would you need? Five to 10 minutes?

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Five minutes? Yes.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Recessed.

The committee recessed from 1417 to 1440.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): We’re back in open session. Ms. Jaczek, did you want to withdraw the motion you had previously—

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Yes, I would like to withdraw the motion previously tabled.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): And you have a new motion.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: I have a new motion.

I move that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts request from Ornge and the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care a chart summarizing the totals and types of payments received by Dr. Chris Mazza or his personal corporation from any Ornge entity or Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care entity between 2003 and 2012, including but not limited to: compensation, base salary, performance payments, medical stipends, research grants, loans, and expenses such as credit card payments;

Also any interest and/or principal payments provided by any Ornge entity;

Also any payments from hospitals, medical clinics and OHIP;

And that this report be provided in an electronic, searchable format;

And that this request go forward after the Standing Committee on Public Accounts receives the February 2012 interim report and final report relating to the Investigation of Ornge and Related Entities: Forensic Investigation Team if these reports do not include all of this information;

And that this information be provided within 30 days by Ornge and the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Any discussion? All in favour? Carried.

Okay. I believe that’s all we need to do in open session, so we shall go back to report—

Mr. Frank Klees: Can I just raise another issue?

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Yes, Mr. Klees.

Mr. Frank Klees: I have just received some information—and I don’t know how accurate this is, but I would appreciate if we could send a request for clarification or confirmation of this and a status from Ornge, and that is that Ornge apparently has terminated its lease on the Hamilton airport hangar and that they paid $2 million to terminate the lease early, and that if in fact the payments had been made to the end of next year, they would have owned the building under the terms of the lease and, at that point, could have sold it for its true value and would have obviously been in a better financial position. According to this, all the furniture in that hangar was disposed of in a dumpster without any regard for recovering value.

So if we could send a letter to Dr. McCallum asking for a status on that hangar, the lease and the information that we’ve received here, I’d appreciate that.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. Is that agreed—

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Sounds like a good idea.

The Chair (Mr. Norm Miller): Okay. Agreed by the committee. Very well. Now we shall go into closed session to continue report writing.

The committee continued in closed session at 1444.

CONTENTS

Wednesday 4 December 2013

Special report, Auditor General: Ornge Air Ambulance and Related Services P-407

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

Chair / Président

Mr. Norm Miller (Parry Sound–Muskoka PC)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Président

Mr. Toby Barrett (Haldimand–Norfolk PC)

Mr. Toby Barrett (Haldimand–Norfolk PC)

Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti (Scarborough Southwest / Scarborough-Sud-Ouest L)

M^me France Gélinas (Nickel Belt ND)

Ms. Helena Jaczek (Oak Ridges–Markham L)

Mr. Bill Mauro (Thunder Bay–Atikokan L)

Mr. Phil McNeely (Ottawa–Orléans L)

Mr. Norm Miller (Parry Sound–Muskoka PC)

Mr. John O’Toole (Durham PC)

Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Bramalea–Gore–Malton ND)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants

Mr. Frank Klees (Newmarket–Aurora PC)

Ms. Soo Wong (Scarborough–Agincourt L)

Also taking part / Autres participants et participantes

Ms. Bonnie Lysyk, Auditor General

Clerk / Greffier

Mr. William Short

Staff / Personnel

Mr. Ray McLellan, research officer,
Research Services

Ms. Susan Viets, research officer,
Research Services