The Chair (Mr James
Bradley): Since all three parties are now represented,
I'm going to call the meeting to order officially.
You'll notice that Donna Bryce
is sitting beside me as the clerk of the committee. Doug Arnott,
who was with us for a considerable period of time, certainly
since I've been the Chair of this committee, will be going to
other duties with other committees. We would like to thank Doug
very much for his kind assistance, his advice and his rulings.
When I say "rulings," he gives advice and the Chair gives the
rulings, but I think we know around here that we are very much
reliant on the staff of the Legislative Assembly to provide us
with good advice and we are wise when we do not vary from that
advice, in my opinion. So thank you very much, Doug, and we wish
you well in your other service.
Mr John Gerretsen
(Kingston and the Islands): Where is he going?
The Chair: To
other committees. Mr Gerretsen was worried that you may be going
elsewhere completely, but he will still be around the
building.
I should say at the beginning
that we do very much appreciate Legislative Assembly staff,
because they are the ongoing officials who provide advice to us.
No matter what the political affiliation of the person in the
chair or the circumstances of the committee, these are the
individuals who provide us with the advice and service that we
require. That is, of course, a great benefit of our system, that
we have people who are non-partisan public servants in these
positions.
The first item on the agenda
will be the report of the subcommittee on committee business
dated Thursday, August 31, 2000.
Mr Bob Wood (London
West): Mr Chair, I move its adoption.
The Chair:
Mr Wood has moved its adoption. All in favour? Opposed? The
motion is carried.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
ROBERT WEISS
Review of intended
appointment, selected by third party: Robert Weiss, intended
appointee as member, University of Toronto Governing Council.
The Chair:
We begin the appointments review this morning, a half-hour
review, from the certificate received on August 25, 2000. It was
a selection of the third party: Robert S. Weiss, intended
appointee as member, University of Toronto Governing Council.
We'll ask Mr Weiss to come forward, please.
You'll correct any
pronunciation mistakes I make, Mr Weiss.
Mr Robert
Weiss: Thank you and congratulations. You got it
correct, against all odds.
The Chair:
Thank you very much, sir. As you are likely aware, we welcome you
to make any initial statement you wish to the committee. After
that time, we will commence the questioning. Today it will
commence with the third party, but you are certainly welcome to
make any statement you wish to begin.
Mr Weiss:
Thank you, Mr Chair. I would like to make a brief opening
statement.
First of all, I would like to
say that I am pleased and honoured to have been asked to join the
governing council of the University of Toronto. I would also like
to say that I am happy to be here today and to answer any
questions you may have.
I understand you have been
provided some brief biographical background about me and my
qualifications for membership on the U of T governing council.
Rather than repeat that background, I'd like to comment on why I
would welcome the opportunity to serve on governing council.
First of all, I believe it's
important for those of us who enjoy the benefits of our community
to give back to that community when we can. To that end, I
consider myself fortunate to have had the opportunity to serve on
the boards of the volunteer committee of Metro Toronto, the
United Way of Greater Toronto, the Toronto Symphony Orchestra and
the business board of the governing council of the University of
Toronto.
With specific respect to the
University of Toronto, I have a long-standing relationship which
began as a graduate of the University of Toronto Schools, UTS,
and continued as a graduate of the University of Toronto. More
recently, I have been pleased to serve for seven years as a
member of the business board and for four years, first as
vice-chair and more recently as chair of that board's audit
committee.
In addition, I have been
involved as a member of the dean's advisory council for the
Rotman school of management.
I believe that the highest standards and quality of education are
absolutely fundamental to our present and to our future, and I
believe that the University of Toronto is among the most
important, if not the most important, post-secondary institutions
providing that education. I believe the combination of the
tutelage from my current and former involvement with the
university, together with my experience across a broad range of
not-for-profit organizations, support my strong interest in
working with the University of Toronto.
As I said, I'm pleased to be
here today. I hope I will receive your concurrence, and I would
be pleased to answer any questions you may have.
The Chair:
Thank you very much, sir, and we'll begin with the third
party.
Mr Tony Martin (Sault
Ste Marie): Thanks for coming before us today and being
willing to answer some of the questions we might have. Our party
asked that you come before the committee today, not so much
because it's you personally as, in our view, what you represent.
That's why we wanted to ask you some questions. There's a concern
out there among the public in Ontario today-and certainly the
University of Toronto is probably the leading post-secondary
institution in the province-that there's a drift away from
liberal arts and more into the technical field, and that's driven
primarily by the corporate or business community, which have a
different vision of where universities should be going as
juxtaposed to where they were.
What's your position on that?
What's your view of that? You'll be moving into an arena now that
would give you some significant opportunity to have some
influence and have your voice heard. The concern is out there,
and it's been raised by some fairly notable people, none more
notable than Chancellor Jackman at U of T, who affirmed the
importance of a liberal arts education, and he, with others,
raising a red flag that maybe we're losing a sense of the
importance of that.
Mr Weiss:
First of all, speaking only to my own background, when I entered
the University of Toronto I enrolled in classics, which I think
is probably somewhere in that liberal arts spectrum, although not
exactly the norm. As I graduated, I graduated from political
science and economics. Although I certainly have had my
background from a business point of view, I believe that
background would be representative of an affinity to the liberal
arts. Too, I think you're aware of some of my other background in
terms of things that are not as focused as you were suggesting
things are.
I view that question as not
one of either/or. I think the University of Toronto has a great
tradition across many spectrums. Like many institutions in many
areas, it has to address questions of priorities. I have observed
a process where it does that, and I don't think that it has
abandoned the importance of a liberal arts education, and that's
a healthy debate that I look forward to engaging in.
Mr Martin: I
appreciate that, and it's interesting to note your own personal
history.
You come to this from an
accounting background, and certainly the name Andersen-and you'll
have to forgive me; yesterday people tried to help me understand
the difference between Andersen Consulting and Arthur Andersen.
They are two different companies?
1010
Mr Weiss:
They are clearly today two different companies. They have
operated for some period of time as two sister organizations of
the same worldwide organization but, as you may be aware from the
press, they have been at best like an estranged marriage that has
now gone through a divorce.
Mr Martin:
The name Andersen keeps popping up with this government. Every
time you turn around it seems there's an Andersen, whether it's
Arthur Andersen or Andersen Consulting, doing something on behalf
of the government. There was the very public initiative in the
whole area of welfare that Andersen Consulting got themselves
into and are involved in. I know in my own community there's been
a number of contracts given to Andersen, one of the Andersens, to
do some work. I'm just wondering if maybe you could tell me
whether this is a large plot for this government to turn the
governing of the province over to the Andersen corporation of one
sort or another, and maybe you're not part of that. Are you a
plant into the University of Toronto now, another tentacle out
there?
Mr Weiss:
No.
Mr Martin:
That concerns me. It concerns me that, where we used to look far
and wide to find a variety of people to appoint to boards like
the University of Toronto and other institutions across the
province, more and more we see people of your professional
background being appointed. Is that a concern for you at all?
Mr Weiss:
You would have to ask the people at the university why they have
approached me to join the governing council, number one. In
reference to your earlier comments, the jobs that you referred to
are Andersen Consulting jobs. Until the end of this month, in my
role as the managing partner of Arthur Andersen, those were not
jobs that we were involved with.
With respect to work that
Arthur Andersen is doing, wherever it is, I do believe that
Arthur Andersen provides a wide range of professional services,
competes for those jobs as anybody else, and whoever makes such
decisions does them in accordance with government policies. I
would be very surprised if Arthur Andersen is doing more of that
work than the other firms that provide those types of
services.
There is no discussion I've
had in any way, shape or form about my being with Arthur Andersen
that has anything to do with the request that was made of me to
join the governing council of the University of Toronto.
Mr Martin: I
would hope not, because the sense that some of us got, certainly
up in Sault Ste Marie when a contract was given out just
recently, was that Andersen is plugged in, Andersen has access,
Andersen can get through the door. So Andersen gets appointed,
Andersen gets the contracts. I would hope that's not the case
here; that that's not why
this appointment is being made; that in fact you're being
appointed because you bring a certain package of expertise and
experience to the job that will in the long haul benefit the
university.
As I said before, the U of T
is a flagship in this province and what happens there oftentimes
filters back and affects other institutions. For example, at the
little university that struggles to keep itself going in Sault
Ste Marie, Algoma College, a part of Laurentian University, we
struggle very much to retain a piece of the action and try to
provide the students of our community and area an opportunity to
study at home if they so choose. Mind you, this year, for the
first time, we have more students from out of the area than we
have from inside, so things are looking up.
There are some difficulties,
obviously, out there in the universities. You cannot help but
note that the amount of money going to post-secondary
institutions has gone down significantly while tuition fees have
gone up. That, at some point I think, is going to come to a head
and begin to show itself in some significant ways, the inability
of small universities to continue to operate maybe, and this
would be sad; the inability of some students perhaps to go to
university because they can't afford it, or they don't want to
take on the very high debt load that seems to be there as they
look at this. Do you bring any creative, new information or
approach that might be helpful to that end?
Mr Weiss: I
apologize. I'm not sure I can be the judge of whether I bring any
creative, new approach. Some of the issues that you're talking
about are certainly issues that I and probably everyone are aware
of. I'm aware of the funding issues that have existed over the
past decade, exactly as I'm aware of them in health care and arts
and culture. I am aware that the ability to fund any number of
those things which are important is a continuing issue. Perhaps
we're entering a new age and phase or perhaps we're not in terms
of availability to do that.
I have been involved, as a
member of the business board, in discussions about the tuition
fees. I believe the University of Toronto, as I have observed it
from the business board, has dealt very seriously and very
responsibly with the issue of increased tuition fees and allowed
full access to different points of view. I think it is doing all
that it can to try and deal responsibly to provide the highest
quality of education in as balanced a fashion as it can.
I know that much of the
debate that I've been engaged in with respect to the tuition fees
includes and is coupled with the question of accessibility and
affordability. Yes, perhaps there are issues about mounting
debts, but I know that the amount that has gone directly into
student aid over the past however many years has increased
multi-fold in terms of the policies. So as the tuition fees are
going up, one third is being set aside for increased support of
students, and I know that the role and goal of the university is
that no otherwise eligible student will be denied access for
financial reasons.
Mr Martin:
Just to give you an idea of exactly what that situation is-and I
suggest to you it's a lot more grave than you paint, so it
concerns me that you're not seeing it that way-provincial
operating grants provided to the universities by the government
have declined by 13%, operating grant support for
full-time-equivalent students has declined by 17%, whereas
tuition fees have gone up by 45% and the average student debt
load coming out of universities has more than doubled since 1995.
Those indicators, to me, would be a huge red flag or should be a
huge red flag for anybody taking on responsibilities such as the
job that you're looking at being appointed to here today.
What's your view? Should
government be carrying more of the responsibility or should, as
seems to be the direction that we're going now, that
responsibility be put more and more on the shoulders of
individual students?
Mr Weiss: I
view my role going into the governing council as being to do all
I can, both as an advocate and to deal with the circumstances
that are there. As I said earlier, to the extent it is possible
to do more, it would be great, as it would be in any number of
other areas. I think it is a balance, I think there is a process,
I think there is a dialogue that does take place and I hope will
continue to take place about the level of funding.
Mr Martin:
What's your view-
The Chair:
Your time has expired, Mr Martin. We will now move on to the
government.
Mr Wood:
We'll waive our time.
The Chair:
The government has waived its time. We move to the official
opposition.
Mrs Leona Dombrowsky
(Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington): Good morning,
Mr Weiss. I'm very happy to be here this morning. I have a
special interest in your appointment. I am a graduate of the
University of Toronto, and it's always nice to hear when my
colleague views that institution in such positive terms as
well.
Mr Weiss, I'm sure you are
aware that during the term of this government there has been a
significant decline in the support that post-secondary
institutions receive from the government. We know that on a
per-capita basis the province of Ontario ranks eighth in Canada
in terms of the support it provides to post-secondary students,
and we know with regard to capital expenditures that we rank 10th
in Canada. The most blessed province in the country supports our
post-secondary students the least.
I would like to understand
from you this morning what role you think the governing council
of post-secondary institutions would have in advocating that this
would change. Do you think it's acceptable, do you think we
should be satisfied with this kind of ranking or do you think
that the students of Ontario deserve more?
1020
Mr Weiss:
First of all, I believe, as I said in my opening comments, that
the whole issue of education is paramount to how we function as a
community, how we function as a society, how we are able to
create our own future. To that end, I think the question of
funding is obviously a
hugely paramount one. As I referred to earlier, the discussions
I've been involved in on the business board, they certainly are
well aware of the issues and challenges.
Bluntly, I would like to see
all aspects of the support system do as much as they can for the
education system and for any others. And to the extent that
difficult choices are made by governments and are made by
individuals in that support, I think as a member of governing
council and a representative of the community it is up to us,
together with the rest of the institution, to make the case for
greater support for institutions that are as important as the
University of Toronto, as has been the case in some of the other
activity. I believe, in accepting an invitation to go on the
governing council, that sort of mandate of looking wherever you
can to spread the message of the importance of education, the
key, central role of the University of Toronto, the message of
importance in getting funding, is part of my mandate as a member
of governing council.
Mrs
Dombrowsky: Just so that I'm clear, you then do believe
the governing councils of post-secondary institutions have a role
in terms of indicating to the government or lobbying the
government to say this is not acceptable?
Mr Weiss: I
think they have a role in indicating that whatever can be done
needs to be done by governments, and the University of Toronto is
a very good example to the general public, where there's been
$700 million raised as part of that. I think that advocacy role
about the importance of education is part of it.
I'm not sure, when you say
whether it's acceptable or not-this is a dynamic situation. Some
of my other involvement, as you know-for example, with the
Toronto Symphony I can make exactly the same statement to the
public and to governments about the level of funding not being
acceptable. I think that we all, whether we are the government or
individuals within our province and our city, need to recognize
the importance of these things and do as much as we can. At that
point you get into the difficult question of priorities. I think
it is up to governments to support those things that are
important to our society. I do not think it should be their sole
responsibility to make sure there's more and more. That is a
collective responsibility in which they should participate.
Mrs
Dombrowsky: Thank you. With regard, you did make some
reference to some of the other challenges that face
post-secondary institutions. You certainly, I'm sure, are aware
of the faculty shortages and the fact that there are going to be,
in the next few years, a significant number of professionals in
that field retiring from the profession of teaching. Compounded
with that reality is the fact that in the year 2003
post-secondary institutions are going to receive the double
cohort.
Are you concerned at all
about the post-secondary institutions' ability to manage those
numbers when they arrive at your door in the year 2003?
Mr Weiss: Of
course I'm concerned about all of those issues. To me, the issue
and why I would look forward to being on governing council is to
be able to participate in the debate and perhaps when I'm more
involved and informed to be able to come up with the creative
solutions of which we're speaking, because it is very important
and those are issues and challenges.
Those are not issues and
challenges that relate simply to the University of Toronto. We
read about those challenges in terms of the most qualified
people, whether it's in academics, whether it's in the arts,
whether it's in business, whether it's whatever. That's an issue
we have as a society, and it applies no less to the university
and it's no less urgent for the university than it is in all
these other areas. It does need more thought and communication to
deal with it.
Mr
Gerretsen: Thank you very much, Mr Weiss. I'm looking
here at Canada's Who's Who 2000, in which you're listed. It
lists, among others, that one of the clubs you belong to is
Queen's. Are we referring to Canada's number one, leading
university? Are you involved with Queen's, or is this another
Queen's?
Mr Weiss:
No, we're not. I was, when I had a body that functioned better, a
member of the Queen's Club, which was a local tennis club. It is
something that has left me, with my youth, unfortunately.
Mr
Gerretsen: I thought maybe you also had the benefit of a
Queen's University education-
Mr Weiss:
No, I do not.
Mr
Gerretsen: -which many people around here have had and
they've done well by it.
Mr Weiss: I
will not apologize. I only have University of Toronto blood in
me.
Mr
Gerretsen: I see. Let me get quite specific, sir. You're
an accountant. You know that the province, up until about two
years ago, was in a horrible financial mess with deficits of $10
billion per year for the last seven or eight years and gradually
that dwindled down etc. We're now at the point where we're
talking about surpluses. We're also at the point where we know
that our ranking is 10th and we've gone from $180 million to $125
million over the last seven years by way of a decline in the
provincial operating grants to universities.
You're on the governing
council and you're asked to make a decision. We're going to write
a letter to the Premier and say, "You balanced the budget. We've
got this excess money. How much of that should be spent towards
post-secondary education?" Would you, for example, tell them,
"Look, it's much better to put that money into post-secondary
education and health care and other needed services than in $200
cheques to be sent to each and every person"? What side of the
ledger do you come down on in that debate?
Mr Weiss:
The side of the ledger would be to participate in a debate as an
advocate of the university in terms, as I said before, of the
importance of education. I don't know that "luxury" is the right
term, but because we have the opportunity at this point in time
in a different fiscal environment to look at it, I hope there
will be an increase in support for education.
I think I have an advantage
and a disadvantage because I am involved in other organizations
in which I also believe
strongly, and that gives me the opportunity to know that,
unfortunately, I myself can't answer, to be overly simplistic,
how much should go to the University of Toronto versus the
Toronto Symphony Orchestra. I'm not asking anybody here-
Mr
Gerretsen: But you're going to be on this governing
council, and undoubtedly at some point in time you're going to be
asked to support perhaps a motion or resolution, a letter to the
government etc that's going to suggest, "Look, we are not
satisfied, as one of the leading post-secondary education
institutions in Ontario, with a 10th ranking of all 10 provinces.
We want to go at least to number five ranking, which means you've
got to put more money into the system." How would you vote on a
motion that would come before the governing council on an issue
like that? Would you vote in favour of sending that kind of
letter to the government, to the Minister of Training, Colleges
and Universities?
Mr Weiss: I
apologize that with your specifics of whether I would deal with a
specific letter that says I would vote for a letter of support to
be fifth as opposed to eighth as opposed to second, I would
propose to engage in that discussion and debate and get more
facts.
With respect to would I be
prepared to support a request to the government for additional
funding for education and for the University of Toronto, I would
definitely be in support of that.
The Chair:
That concludes your questions. Did you have a point of order?
Mr Martin: I
was just wondering, given that the government party didn't ask a
question, if I might have unanimous consent to ask one more
question.
The Chair:
There would have to be unanimous consent.
Mr Wood:
There isn't.
The Chair:
"There is not," says Mr Wood. Since there is not, I must go
by-unanimous consent was asked for, unanimous consent was denied
to Mr Martin, so I thank you very much, Mr Weiss, for being with
us this morning and for answering the questions.
Mr Weiss:
Thank you.
The Chair:
We will now deal with the appointment. I'll entertain a
motion.
Mr Wood: I
move concurrence.
The Chair:
Concurrence in the recommended appointment is moved by Mr Wood.
Any discussion?
Mr Martin: I
have no difficulty with what Mr Weiss brings to the table re this
appointment. I think he'll probably-and it probably will be
approved here this morning-prove to be a valuable asset to the
governing body of the University of Toronto. I did appreciate his
answer to the question on liberal arts and his understanding of
the need to support that, given his own background.
However, his appointment does
represent for me and for our caucus a drift that's happening with
this government to turn everything over to a business interest, a
more corporate environment, and that worries me.
1030
The question I was going to
ask had I been given the opportunity, and I think it's an
important question-I actually should have asked it when I had my
own time-was his view on the proposed introduction to Ontario of
private universities and how he saw that affecting the ability of
an institution like the University of Toronto to continue to
operate.
I hope he would become an
advocate of publicly funded and publicly administered and run
universities in this province so that everybody who wanted to and
had the potential to participate and be successful would be able
to do that, so that we're not setting up two tiers here, either
of universities publicly funded, publicly administered, or a
privately run system of universities and a publicly run system of
universities. Those who can afford it will go to the privately
run universities, perhaps because there will be, I'm sure, some
financial support from the corporate world to make sure that the
brightest and smartest of our kids get to go to some of those
private universities, but everybody else will end up at the
publicly funded and administered universities. You can only
imagine how that will play itself out and what will happen re the
further stratification of the society in which we live.
As a province, we're
recognized and admired around the world for a number of things,
including the fact that we've taken the very courageous stance
over a number of years, under the leadership of various
governments, to have publicly funded, publicly administered
institutions like health care and education.
I don't think anybody would
disagree that in the climate we live in today, with the kind of
business activity that's happening out there, there is a need for
people to be educated ever more fully to participate. Governments
in the past, because they recognized that entry level into the
workplace at one time used to be grade 8, decided to fund
publicly the education of all students up to grade 8. Then it was
recognized that entry level was secondary school, so they decided
to fund secondary school fully. I suggest to you that today in
the world we live in, entry level to any job is post-secondary,
is college or university. For a lot of jobs now the entry level
is a university degree.
If we don't sit up and pay
attention to what's happening to our universities and the ability
of people to participate because of the financial constraints
that are there now, we're going to be in big trouble. We're not
going to be able to compete on the world stage, and we hear a lot
about that from our government today, that we need to
compete.
I was in Ireland this summer
and met with a number of the leaders over there on various
levels. One of the first things the Irish government did in
recognizing that it needed to do something about a very stagnant
economy was to invest in education, to put significant money into
the further development of their education system, to a point
where now in Ireland there are no tuition fees. They recognize
that they've got to provide opportunity for everybody in Ireland who has the potential to
participate, to achieve a post-secondary education so they can be
involved in the very exciting economy that's happening over
there.
Ireland is blowing past most
countries in the world today in the development of its economy
and in fact became the leader in the world for selling and
distributing software. I suggest to you it's not just, as some
people would suggest, a very attractive business tax rate but
it's because they've also invested in things like education for
their populace.
Given that we have so few
opportunities any more to talk to this government about its
initiatives-the rules have been changed so significantly in the
Legislature; we do so little public consultation on almost
anything that they put out-and democracy has been so whittled
back in our province today, we have to take every opportunity
that we can, in whatever small way, to send a message to this
government that we think their direction is wrong, that they're
impeding progress, as opposed to supporting it and encouraging
it, by a move to making our universities and colleges simply
vehicles of business to get more workers, who are very narrowly
educated-the issue of liberal arts and the humanities-a move to a
situation where fewer and fewer of our young people will be able
to access university because of the move to putting the financial
onus more on the shoulders of individual students by way of loans
rather than the government itself putting money into those
institutions and the very frightening and difficult move we're
seeing now to actually introduce into the province of Ontario the
concept of private universities.
Even though Mr Weiss may
bring-and will, because he'll obviously get approved here this
morning-some sensitivity to a number of those issues, I need to
vote against this simply to send a message to the government that
I think they're heading in the wrong direction. They will do
damage if this is allowed to continue for a significant period of
time from which it will be very difficult to recover. The losers
in the long run will be the people who reside in my constituency
and I suggest in the constituency of every member around the
table here this morning. It will be unfortunate. However, I will
be able, in some small way, to hold my head up because I opposed
it and took this opportunity to tell the government that I did
so.
The Chair:
Thank you. Any further debate? If there's no further debate, I'll
put the question.
All in favour? Opposed? The
motion is carried.
I don't believe there's any
further business for the committee, so I'll entertain a motion of
adjournment.
