INTENDED
APPOINTMENTS
PAUL VALENTINE
CONTENTS
Wednesday 26 June 1996
Intended appointments
Paul Valentine
Charles Carrick
Linda van Aalst
Subcommittee report
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Président: Laughren, Floyd (Nickel Belt ND)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Martin, Tony (Sault Ste Marie ND)
*Bartolucci, Rick (Sudbury L)
*Crozier, Bruce (Essex South / -Sud L)
*Doyle, Ed (Wentworth East / -Est PC)
*Ford, Douglas B. (Etobicoke-Humber PC)
*Fox, Gary (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings / Prince Edward-Lennox-Hastings-Sud PC)
Gravelle, Michael (Port Arthur L)
*Johnson, Bert (Perth PC)
*Kormos, Peter (Welland-Thorold ND)
*Laughren, Floyd (Nickel Belt ND)
Leadston, Gary L. (Kitchener-Wilmot PC)
*Martin, Tony (Sault Ste Marie ND)
Newman, Dan (Scarborough Centre / -Centre PC)
*Preston, Peter L. (Brant-Haldimand PC)
*Wood, Bob (London South / -Sud PC)
*In attendance / présents
Substitutions present / Membres remplaçants présents:
Duncan, Dwight (Windsor-Walkerville L) for Mr Gravelle
Brown, Jim (Scarborough West / -Ouest PC) for Mr Leadston
Clerk / Greffière: Tannis Manikel
Staff / Personnel: David Pond, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1002 in room 228.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
PAUL VALENTINE
Review of intended appointment, selected by offical opposition party: Paul Valentine, intended appointee as member, Windsor Housing Authority.
The Chair (Mr Floyd Laughren): We have before us this morning, the last meeting of the committee this session, three intended appointments to deal with. The first -- we should get right to it -- is Mr Paul Valentine to the Windsor Housing Authority. Mr Valentine, thank you for making yourself available this morning. You don't have to, but if you'd like to make a few opening comments, you'd be more than welcome to do so.
Mr Paul Valentine: Yes, I would like to. I'd like to give you a little bit of background with regard to my qualifications for the position on the Windsor Housing Authority. I'm a retired secondary school principal with 34 years of experience in education as a teacher and approximately 21 years as an administrator. I've lived in Windsor my entire life. I know the community of Windsor from the standpoint of living in the west end, the east end and the south end of Windsor itself. Also, I was fortunate enough to be at six secondary schools, where I also worked in the west end, the south end and the east end of the city. I also got involved outside the educational environment with regard to working with youth groups in the community, especially in the sports area, as I come from a sports background.
However, since my retirement from education -- I have my anniversary tomorrow -- I've decided that I really miss the communication and the professionalism in working in the community. I was very active before and I found that once I retired there was a real void in my life personally. I felt I should continue to get involved in the community and work again with people with whom I had so much influence and success during my tenure as a principal within the Windsor secondary school educational system.
As far as why I'm getting involved in the boards is concerned, I think I've expressed that in the fact that I made it known in the city with social agencies and through the Rotary itself and other people I've come across and worked with through the years that I would like to stand for various committees if vacancies became available. Just recently, I became a board member for the city of Windsor for the Ontario Association of Credit Counselling Services. I've become more active in the community through the Rotary. I also let my name stand, as you are well aware, for this appointment that we're here to discuss today.
In summary, I'd just like to say that I believe in communication, team building and shared decision-making. I've always operated my life in terms of an open-door policy, with not only my family but the people I work with. As far as rendering opinions on various topics is concerned, I've always found through my experience that it's important to really evaluate the situation and observe the various things before you make a knowledgeable decision or render an opinion on various topics.
In closing, the one thing that I found made me more aware of the housing situation in Windsor was that I was a vice-principal in the west end of the city some years ago. The majority of our students came from public housing, so I had a great deal of contact with the students themselves and also with the families as far as their needs were concerned.
That is a summary of my qualifications for this position.
Mr Douglas B. Ford (Etobicoke-Humber): Good morning, Mr Valentine, and welcome. I've got a couple of questions that I've prepared. Are you familiar with the duties of a local housing authority?
Mr Valentine: Yes. I had the opportunity to contact the manager of the housing unit and the chairperson for the 11-member board to get more insight into it. I also talked to workers who have been employed at the Windsor Housing Authority.
Mr Ford: Each local housing authority must prepare an annual budget for administration of the authority and the operation of the housing projects. How will your experience as department head and principal contribute to the Windsor Housing Authority budget process?
Mr Valentine: I've been very fortunate to have served on municipal committees. I was president of the board of directors for the Roseland Golf and Curling Club, which is owned by the city. We had to deal with budgetary items, with personnel and with the needs of the community in that particular area. Second, I also was president of the Ontario Federation of School Athletic Associations, which receives funding from the government, and in that capacity I had the opportunity to work with personnel and budgets.
Of course, my main forte, being in education and having to endure and work with any type of budgetary cuts, was that I worked with the budget itself and I worked with people to try to explain to them exactly what the impact of the budget would be on education and the secondary schools. In terms of my background, I have a great deal of experience in that area.
Mr Ford: You have had a great deal of experience in managing large budgets and labour, plumbing, utilities -- all this type of thing?
Mr Valentine: I wouldn't go as far as labour and utilities.
Mr Ford: Administration?
Mr Valentine: In terms of administration and working with trustees and various boards and so on, I've had a great deal of input and experience along those lines.
Mr Peter L. Preston (Brant-Haldimand): Sir, what are some of the important issues in Windsor regarding people in rent geared to income?
Mr Valentine: From my observations -- again, I'm not on the board at this time -- I know that in the Glengarry district, which is opposite the new casino being built, the present local authority is looking into possibly redeveloping that area or partially redeveloping it or just leaving it alone. Obviously this is going to be of real concern for the tenants of these particular buildings. From what I can see, with the fact that they're receiving input from the tenants before any decisions are made in cooperation with the Ontario Housing Corp, I think they're headed in the right direction.
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Mr Preston: You've done a lot of committee work in your past. What type of committee work would you be interested in at the Windsor Housing Authority?
Mr Valentine: Looking over the responsibilities and so on, there are a number of areas I feel qualified to be in. I often think about the needs of the tenants and of course the kids I've come in contact with and so on, and I can see that there is a real need to meet the needs of the people living in these areas; their self-esteem is extremely poor, and it's very important that they are met. They can be met in a number of ways, with saving secure environments and with proper dialogue taking place and so on. If there was a committee along those lines or if there was any type of strategic planning -- I could go on and on -- I feel I could offer some help in those areas.
Mr Bob Wood (London South): We'll reserve the balance of our time.
Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): Paul, welcome to the committee and congratulations on celebrating your first anniversary as a superannuated teacher of Ontario. Certainly after 34 years you deserve to have 34 years in retirement, and I hope you get that many years into it. I'd like to thank you for all the work you've done with children over the course of the last 34 years. You deserve credit for that. Being a teacher on leave and having to go back to it, I'm worried about what I'll be facing in the next four or 10 years from now. Enjoy your retirement.
Are you in favour of the government's initiative to, first of all, sell off scattered units?
Mr Valentine: You're asking me if I'm in favour or not. It's difficult for me to be knowledgeable on all the issues at this point and to have an opinion. I'd rather reserve judgement until I really get involved in the actual board itself and know what the issues are and what the policy and guidelines are at this time.
Mr Bartolucci: There are approximately 84,000 public units. You referred to the west end school. I taught in an inner-city school, was principal of an inner-city school, and had almost the same type of student population that you had. What would be the impact in your west end school if those public units weren't available to those students and those families? More than just living accommodations, maybe give the committee, as a principal and as a teacher, the broader ramifications of the question.
Mr Valentine: I'll answer it from the standpoint of my working relationships with the students in the west end going back some time. Stability and self-esteem are extremely important to these kids and also, obviously, to the parents. When you come from varied backgrounds of families with single parents, no parents and those kinds of things, it's very difficult for these kids to feel good about themselves and attend school on a regular basis. A lot of their problems stem from the environment in which they live.
Having a master's degree in guidance counselling got me really involved from the standpoint of assistant principal at that time, working with these families and trying to make them feel good about themselves. I think any type of disruption in their lives where they have to make major decisions about living accommodations could have a direct influence on the success of these students in school.
Mr Bartolucci: That's a very honest answer and I appreciate it. I think you'll be an excellent appointee to the board. If you're as open as you are with the answer to that particular question, I think the housing authority is lucky to have you.
Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-Walkerville): Congratulations, Mr Valentine, on your appointment. You have an outstanding reputation in our community as an educator and I'm sure you will be welcome at the housing authority.
I have some specific questions that have been discussed quite publicly in Windsor. The Glengarry units are among the 84,000 being looked at being closed down. There's been a very public debate about the future. Mr Carson has been down to the city. We've had public meetings about it. What are your views about Glengarry and what alternatives would you see to closing them down?
Mr Valentine: I mentioned the Glengarry situation to Peter Preston with regard to the casino and so on. As for giving you a concrete answer with regard to alternatives, I don't really think I'm equipped or educated enough at this time. All I know is that there are the very great concerns of the people living in these units and I feel they have to be addressed. I think presently the local housing authority is addressing these and receiving input from the tenants in this position. They're also looking at the buildings and doing audits and things of this nature. But as far as giving you a direct answer on that is concerned, I don't think I'm qualified at this time.
Mr Duncan: Part of my fear, Mr Valentine, just so you'll be aware, is that board members of the housing authority historically have complained that they're kept in the dark by the local authority, and the fact that you're not up to speed on these issues prior to a hearing tends to lead me to believe that you're going to be another one of those members who becomes frustrated with the local management of the authority. That's not a partisan statement; that's something I've heard over the years through successive governments. I want to come back to this. What will you do to ensure that you get the information?
The story about the Windsor Housing Authority Glengarry thing broke in the Windsor Star long before any of the board members knew about it. As you're aware, one reason there are vacancies is not only because the government has decided to make new appointments, but because members have resigned. What will you do to ensure that you are not one of those board members who become frustrated because nobody briefs you about what's going on? That's a fear, by the way, that as a member of Windsor city council for a number of years we also had with the local housing authority. What will you do to ensure that doesn't happen to you? I'm a bit concerned, because I would have thought they might have given you some background prior to this meeting.
Mr Valentine: First of all, I want to address your first concern. I'm not a passive individual, and when I sit on boards I like to have answers. I'm not going to sit back and be in the dark, because how can anybody make decisions if they're sitting back and they're in the dark and no one's providing information?
In fairness to what you just said, I have received information on various responsibilities as far as Windsor housing is concerned. I have contacted the manager of the Windsor housing unit. I have contacted the chairperson. I'm gathering this information now. As I say, I just found out last week that my appointment had been forwarded. I've done a lot of homework up until now, and I continue to do my homework, and I will ask pertinent questions based on my community, because the public interest is foremost and my opinions are secondary, and I'm going to address that.
The Vice-Chair (Mr Tony Martin): Any more questions from the Liberal caucus? You have a bit of time left. No? Then we'll move to the NDP caucus.
Mr Peter Kormos (Welland-Thorold): Notwithstanding my natural aversion to lawyers, social workers and teachers, I note that Mr Valentine is retired. I suspect that he'll be a good member of the board and is qualified to be on it. I congratulate him on what I expect will be a unanimous approval of his appointment.
The Vice-Chair: Any further questions from the government caucus?
Mr Bob Wood: We'll waive the balance of our time.
The Vice-Chair: Fine. Thank you very much, Mr Valentine, for coming this morning. We wish you well.
CHARLES CARRICK
Review of intended appointment, selected by third party: Charles Carrick, intended appointee as member, Tilbury Police Services Board.
The Vice-Chair: I call our next intended appointment, Charles F. Carrick, selected by the third party, intended appointee as member of the town of Tilbury Police Services Board. Welcome. Make yourself comfortable. If you have an opening few comments, you're certainly welcome to begin.
Mr Charles Carrick: First of all, I'd like to thank the Chair and the members of the committee for hearing me this morning. It's a beautiful day. I think I'll start by saying I don't want to take up much of your time in talking about myself. You probably have all read my application. I come from the town of Tilbury, which is 30 miles from Windsor. I was born in that town. I started on council. I've been on a total now of 38 years: 17 years as mayor and 17 years sitting on the police services board. At the time, the chair was always appointed by a provincial agent, so I just sat back at that time.
I might mention too that I was an ex-OPP officer, so I had it very easy in dealing with and understanding both sides. The only time we really had any trouble in all my experience, and it wasn't even trouble as far as I was concerned, was that we always tried to get the budget down to where we could satisfy the police association and also you're sitting trying to satisfy the council and the taxpayers. We only had the one time we had to go from negotiations to conciliation to arbitration. I will say of that time of arbitration, it was good, it was honest, both sides accepted it and we had no problem at all.
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On our police force in Tilbury we have a nine-man force, including the chief. We have no trouble with our police. They do a good job. Tilbury itself is an industrial town; it's not a tourist town. We sit, like I said, 30 miles from Windsor and sometimes the overflow from Windsor now at the casino and everything else working together keeps our police in trim.
I don't want to take up your time talking about Tilbury because I know you've got questions to ask, but I do think we have a good force there. We get along well and right now, at the present time, together with the police force, the council and all the organizations, we're getting a hall for the young people who hang around the streets. They're going to run this hall themselves, monitored by the police force, by the council and the organizations, the Lions Club, Rotary, the whole thing. We think this is going to help the boys who are standing around the businesses uptown.
I don't think I have much more to say about it, but no problem with our police at the present time. With my experience, I'll go in and I'll give it all I've got. The reason I applied is because, after pretty near five years, I missed it and I really love the political game at that lower angle right in Tilbury, so that was the reason I applied. When I saw your ad in the Tilbury Times asking for one I answered it.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much. We'll start this round of questioning with the Liberal caucus.
Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex South): Good morning and welcome to the committee.
Mr Carrick: Thank you very much.
Mr Crozier: In reviewing your background, your municipal experience, the fact that you've lived in the town of Tilbury for so long -- Tilbury's just on the edge of my riding, but it's a great little community -- keeping in mind your background and the knowledge you have of the town, I want to ask your opinion. Are you familiar with the events that have recently occurred in the town of Wallaceburg with their police services?
Mr Carrick: The only thing I can tell you in that particular instance is that if you follow the Ontario Police Act, I think they made a mistake in doing what they did first by not following the Police Act, if they would have followed it through. Probably another reason they thought they were doing it right was that when they got cut back they thought, "We'll just go ahead and lay off the chief and we'll lay off this and we'll lay off that," but actually they should have taken the steps of the Police Act. That's what we always do. We go right by the Police Act.
Mr Crozier: I agree that there's a way to do things, but if you'll excuse me, what I'd like in the way of your opinion, you mentioned that it was always an attempt to keep the police budget at a reasonable level so that it satisfied everyone.
Mr Carrick: We always did.
Mr Crozier: Although they may have done it either the wrong way or maybe they simply didn't have any control over it at all, they were attempting to do just what you said you should do, that is, to control the budget and satisfy the taxpayers. If you were met with a situation like that, the severe budget constraints the city of Wallaceburg has had, and the fact that the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services can simply prevent you from doing what you feel you have to do -- would you like to see that changed? Do you think there should be a change so there can be more local autonomy and control?
Mr Carrick: To answer your question, first of all, if the they took the steps in the right way in following the Police Act, and then going to the Ontario Police Commission and finding out whether they could do it right or whether they couldn't do it right, then they would hire their lawyers and go on from there to see what they're going to do. If they haven't got the money, then there's no other way out. They'd still have to go ahead and do it.
Mr Crozier: But if you'll excuse me, that doesn't answer the question. I said, would you prefer as a member of the police services board to have more autonomy and control over your budget and not be ruled by an appointed body at the provincial level, that being the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services?
Mr Carrick: First of all, I would have to look at whether we would have enough protection by -- the main thing, to be able to have enough protection there, whether you lay anybody off or whether you don't. That's number one. You've got to still provide protection for that town. If that group is needed, then you'll have to go on and pay it and you'll have to have policing there.
Mr Crozier: Sir, I'm going to keep at this until you answer my question.
Mr Carrick: You stay with it.
Mr Crozier: You haven't told me whether you would prefer, as a member of the police services board, to have the autonomy to control, yes, both the service that's required, but that you, as a member of the board or the board collectively, could make that decision and not have to answer and/or abide by the decision of another body at the provincial level. Do you want that control at the local level?
Mr Carrick: To answer your question, I would say that, if I didn't have the money, that's number one. If I didn't have the money, I would go to our lawyer and find out what I could do. But I still think that if we haven't got the money, we can't afford it. The only thing I could do then is tell you that the police'll be going.
Mr Crozier: If you could rewrite the act, would you give more autonomy to local police services boards?
Mr Carrick: That's the job, to rewrite the act. I think I would.
Mr Crozier: Ah, good. That answers my question. Because I too, like you, sir, was mayor, of the town of Leamington, and we always felt, both when I was on council, then when I was mayor and subsequently on the police services board, that it should be in local hands. Who can tell better the level of service that's required and who can tell better whether that level can be afforded or how it can be afforded? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think we agree that that's the level at which the decisions should be made, and not to have an Ontario civilian commission tell us what we should do. Do we agree on that?
Mr Carrick: We agree to the point that we've got to keep in mind that you've still got to have enough policing in the town, be it in Leamington or be it in Tilbury.
Mr Crozier: Absolutely.
Mr Carrick: It's got to be there.
Mr Crozier: Okay. I appreciate your comments.
Mr Bartolucci: Mr Carrick, being a former police commissioner -- or member of the police services board, excuse me; they change the names every once in a while -- did you ever have reason to question -- let's ask another question first. What committees did you sit on when you were a member of the police services board? Or did your police services board have committees?
Mr Carrick: No. You see, there were two provincial appointees and the mayor. He sat on there by virtue of his office.
Mr Bartolucci: You did that for 17 years?
Mr Carrick: Now the mayor can appoint a member of the council to that police commission.
Mr Bartolucci: And you did that for 17 years?
Mr Carrick: I sat there for 17 years.
Mr Bartolucci: Did you ever sit on the complaints commission, or did you have a complaints commission?
Mr Carrick: Yes, we had complaints come in and we'd go through -- the same as the act. They would complain first to the chief. If they didn't get any answers, they'd come to the commission, and if we couldn't give them any answers, we went to the Ontario Police Commission. But we never had to go that far.
Mr Bartolucci: What did your police officers think when that structure changed?
Mr Carrick: We had no problem with the police.
Mr Bartolucci: Your police officers didn't complain?
Mr Carrick: No.
Mr Bartolucci: They're unique, then, because every other appointee who's come here and I've asked that same question of have said their police officers were frightened that the time it was going to take was really unfair for the police officer. That's not been a problem?
Mr Carrick: Never had a problem with the police in the 17 years I sat on the board.
Mr Bartolucci: No, with the processing of complaints.
Mr Carrick: Nothing at all. In fact, we'd call a public meeting and hardly anybody'd show up, just like Mr Crozier probably has in Leamington. They don't come to the meetings.
Mr Bartolucci: Complaints are never handled in public anyway. Complaints are always handled privately. Correct?
Mr Carrick: But you can't even get people to sit and listen.
Mr Bartolucci: You never handled your complaints in public; you always handled your complaints privately?
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Mr Carrick: In private, right.
Mr Bartolucci: I see that there are no budget figures for this year for your town with regard to policing. Are you familiar with the budget?
Mr Carrick: Yes. I stay right on top of it. The mayor has not yet brought out the final taxation for Tilbury, and that's probably one of the reasons, but I can give you a ballpark figure, that Tilbury is well over half a million. It was $525,000 when I left.
Mr Bartolucci: Finally, just a follow-up and a simple answer: As the mayor for 17 years, were you never frustrated by the appointees who were on the board?
Mr Carrick: No. We had very good appointees.
Mr Bartolucci: It's amazing. So you never wanted to have control, wanted to have the power at the local level?
Mr Carrick: No. They were all very good.
Mr Crozier: Chief Wayne Radlin is retired, I understand.
Mr Carrick: Right.
Mr Crozier: Where is Wayne these days?
Mr Carrick: Wayne is out at the lighthouse. He's got the boat ramp out there and he sells gasoline. He's still there. He's still doing it.
Mr Crozier: An old friend from way back, so I'm pleased he's doing fine.
Mr Carrick: Yes, that's right. He went on the police force young.
Mr Kormos: Mr Carrick, I spent a day in Tilbury just a few weeks ago.
Mr Carrick: I think I saw you there. I saw you at the convention too. You were on TV.
Mr Kormos: God bless.
Mr Carrick: Right. I check on them all.
Mr Kormos: What business do you own there?
Mr Carrick: I own the piano business. I have a building with apartments in it. I'm just semi-retired and doing this for volunteering.
Mr Kormos: Sure. This is a municipal force, correct?
Mr Carrick: A municipal force.
Mr Kormos: With nine officers.
Mr Carrick: A chief and eight officers.
Mr Kormos: Unfortunately, Bill 26 puts the future of communities like Tilbury at risk.
Mr Carrick: I understand that. I read Bill 26 real good.
Mr Kormos: That's right. They really put it to you with Bill 26. You said it's a nine-man force. Are there any women on the force?
Mr Carrick: Yes, we have two now.
Mr Kormos: So a nine-person force. I've been struggling with it too, Mr Carrick. I wrote down "nine-man"; I've got to put down "nine-person."
I saw the letter in your submission. You cc'd it to Jack Carroll: "A clipping of the Windsor Star dated December 4, 1995, drew my attention to your new government stating that they were going to appoint some new members to the police services boards across the province due to the fact that they are not qualified to do the job properly."
I don't know what that means.
Mr Carrick: I couldn't tell you that. The man who wrote that is the one who said it. It's the only man who did that. I just cut that out of your paper. That had nothing to do with me.
Mr Kormos: But this is your letter.
Mr Carrick: No, no. That was sent there because they were wondering why I was applying.
Mr Kormos: I don't know what the first paragraph means.
Mr Carrick: He must have had some reason, whoever brought that out, that they weren't doing good.
Mr Kormos: This is your letter.
Mr Carrick: That's right.
Mr Kormos: So what's "due to the fact that they are not qualified to do the job properly"?
Mr Carrick: I'll tell you the reason for that. The reason that paragraph is there is that at the time they removed -- or she finished her term with Windsor. That's when that same thing came out, when the lady in Windsor came off the police committee.
Mr Duncan: She was very qualified.
Mr Carrick: Yes, she was.
Mr Duncan: In fact, she was chair of the Ontario Police Commission and she came off the Ontario Association of Police Services Boards.
Mr Kormos: Fair enough. So the ad indicated that the government was putting new people on police services boards because the old people were not qualified?
Mr Carrick: That's the way it read. I wouldn't say that to you.
Mr Kormos: What about the Tilbury Police Services Board? Never mind Windsor.
Mr Carrick: The police services board has no problems.
Mr Kormos: Who are you replacing on that?
Mr Carrick: Mrs Robitaille. Her term's up. That's the only reason.
Mr Kormos: She was certainly qualified, wasn't she, Mrs Robitaille?
Mr Carrick: Yes, she was. This is other places in Ontario. I know what you're getting at. You're a lawyer. Good question.
Mr Kormos: You're an ex-mayor. You've got a lot more experience than I do.
Mr Carrick: You just asked me what you want me to say.
Mr Kormos: I want you to tell me what you think.
Mr Carrick: I think if they're not qualified, they shouldn't be on the board. I agree with that.
Mr Kormos: Quite right. What about Mrs Robitaille?
Mr Carrick: She is qualified. She sat with me for years and years.
Mr Kormos: Did you talk to her at all before you submitted the application?
Mr Carrick: No. Why would I talk to her? I didn't even know you were going to put an ad in the paper wanting a police service man. That part went in with the letter.
Mr Kormos: You saw the ad in the paper, which is what prompted you to send this letter to the public appointments unit, right?
Mr Carrick: Yes. I saw the ad in the paper.
Mr Kormos: You knew that you were replacing Mrs Robitaille?
Mr Carrick: I didn't know that at the time. All I saw was the notice from the government stating they needed a new man in Tilbury.
Mr Kormos: A new --
Mr Carrick: A new boy for the police services board.
Mr Kormos: Did you know whom you were replacing?
Mr Carrick: Yes.
Mr Kormos: Mrs Robitaille?
Mr Carrick: Right. And I knew why.
Mr Kormos: Why?
Mr Carrick: Because her term was up.
Mr Kormos: Do you know whether or not she reapplied?
Mr Carrick: That I don't know. I couldn't tell you.
Mr Kormos: Who are the other two members of the police services board?
Mr Carrick: According to the way I understand it right now, you stay on six years and you're appointed every two years. I think you'll read that that's the way it's done.
Mr Kormos: Who are the other two members of the police services board?
Mr Carrick: Right now?
Mr Kormos: Yes.
Mr Carrick: You have the mayor who sits on there, and David Drouillard. He is with the help centre.
Mr Kormos: How long has Mrs Robitaille been a member of the police services board?
Mr Carrick: She was there with me. She must be there six or eight years.
Mr Kormos: Would you like to see her reapply at some point down the road?
Mr Carrick: It's entirely up to her. If she sees an opening, she can apply for it.
Mr Kormos: Would you like to see her on the board?
Mr Carrick: She's very good. She was good, anyway. How she's been in the last five years I don't know. I haven't been there for five years.
Mr Kormos: You don't know. But you've been living in Tilbury.
Mr Carrick: I know, but I don't go house to house just checking with everybody. I used to do that when I was a policeman, but not now.
Mr Kormos: But you live there and you know what's going on, whether the police are happy or unhappy, don't you? Mr Carrick, you know whether the police are happy or unhappy with their services board, don't you?
Mr Carrick: As far as I know they're happy in Tilbury. That's all I can tell you. Outside the town of Tilbury I can't tell you. It's really none of my business, what they're doing outside of Tilbury.
Mr Kormos: We're talking about Tilbury.
Mr Carrick: If Tilbury isn't, they never told me. I get along good with all the officers there. I never heard of anything like that.
Mr Kormos: Mr Carroll -- you cc'd him. Obviously you know Jack.
Mr Carrick: I just know him to see him, that's all.
Mr Kormos: Why did you cc him with your letter?
Mr Carrick: A copy of the letter to him, you mean? He's the Conservative MPP for Chatham-Kent.
Mr Kormos: Why did you cc him?
Mr Carrick: Why not?
Mr Kormos: I'm asking you why.
Mr Carrick: I thought maybe he could help, the same as anybody else could.
Mr Kormos: Fair enough. Did you talk to him at all about it?
Mr Carrick: Your Liberal member got one too.
Mr Kormos: Did you talk to him about it?
Mr Carrick: No, I never spoke to him in my life.
Mr Kormos: You sent the letter in. What happened next with the government in terms of being interviewed or checking out?
Mr Carrick: I don't know.
Mr Kormos: Did you have any phone calls with anybody?
Mr Carrick: No.
Mr Kormos: Did anybody interview you?
Mr Carrick: You are now.
Mr Kormos: Before today.
Mr Carrick: No.
Mr Kormos: Nobody interviewed you?
Mr Carrick: No.
Mr Kormos: Nobody at all from the Solicitor General spoke with you?
Mr Carrick: Just the girls, these letters here.
Mr Kormos: These girls who spoke with you -- we have a girl in the audience; she might be interested -- which ones are they?
Mr Carrick: Judy, and there was another girl from Queen's Park, Carol Hazard.
Mr Kormos: Let's take a look at those. Which one? Carol Hazard?
Mr Carrick: Yes, and Judy Ford -- the only two girls I spoke to.
Mr Kormos: What did these two girls speak to you about?
Mr Carrick: They just told me when to come down here.
Mr Bert Johnson (Perth): Check your pockets on the way out.
Mr Carrick: You didn't take anything out of my pocket, did you?
Laughter.
Mr Kormos: It's remarkable how referring to women as girls elicits such laughter from the Tory ranks, but it's not unexpected, although this is 1996, not 1896. You weren't interviewed by anybody in the Solicitor General's ministry?
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Mr Carrick: I just sent my application in. That's all I did.
Mr Kormos: The only application you sent in was this one page, the letter we've got here?
Mr Carrick: Exactly.
Mr Kormos: Did you give a consent for a check of your record?
Mr Carrick: Yes, I did.
Mr Kormos: How did you do that? How did you provide that consent?
Mr Carrick: Well, you sign the papers you send in. I don't have it here.
Mr Kormos: Okay. That was a form that was sent to you by the appointments unit?
Mr Carrick: Yes.
Mr Kormos: And the form required you to consent to a record search?
Mr Carrick: I might mention to you, just for your benefit, that they did investigate me. I'm thinking that, anyway.
Mr Kormos: Is that the only other thing you signed with respect to the Ministry of the Solicitor General?
Mr Carrick: Yes, I think it is. It had a list of things that you sign for them to go ahead and investigate you. I think they did a good job of investigating; I'll have to give them credit for that. I'm glad I had a clean record, Peter.
Mr Kormos: I'm sure you did, sir.
The Vice-Chair: We'll move on to the government caucus.
Mr Bob Wood: You said a couple of minutes ago that you were in the piano business. How long have you been in that business?
Mr Carrick: For 38 years.
Mr Bob Wood: Prior to that you were with the OPP, or did you do something in between?
Mr Carrick: No. It was long ago I was with the OPP. I was mayor before that. I was always in the car business. I was in the automotive business from very young, General Motors and Ford in Tilbury.
Mr Bob Wood: So you were in the car business and then in the piano business?
Mr Carrick: That's right, and still with the car business while I'm in the piano business. My son is a technician, and we do all the schools and churches from Sarnia to Windsor.
Mr Bob Wood: You're still in the car business as well?
Mr Carrick: Not now. I'm semi-retired. I help him.
Mr Bob Wood: Could you briefly describe the sorts of community service activities you've done, if any?
Mr Carrick: Community activities, like Rotary, Lions? I belong to them all.
Mr Bob Wood: Which ones do you belong to?
Mr Carrick: The Tilbury Rotary Club and the Tilbury Lions Club.
Mr Bob Wood: Any other community service activities?
Mr Carrick: No. At that time there were only the two major ones. The Young Optimists are in there now.
Mr Preston: You've been in public life for quite some time.
Mr Carrick: Practically all my life.
Mr Preston: You've seen the needs in the community change. Well, you've seen the community change. What are the community changes in regard to police requirements?
Mr Carrick: The thing is, as we grew in industry we required more police because people were moving in. We came up from about 2,000 to close to 4,500 now, so we needed more policing. When I was young, one OPP took care of the town of Tilbury, about the same as they're doing in rural areas now.
Mr Preston: What challenges are facing the --
Mr Carrick: I think the challenge that's facing the local police forces is that we haven't got quite enough OPPs now out there on the road. They're going to cut back. I think what you're seeing, especially in our area, and Mr Crozier would know -- in Essex and Kent you're seeing the amalgamation of municipalities. You have Chatham, Blenheim, Harwich and Raleigh. Those four townships are in the process of amalgamating, and they will use their services.
Tilbury sits right on the line between Essex and Kent. Last year alone we made 295 calls to the lighthouse area -- that's out on the lake -- in Essex. That's in the rural. We do that to support the OPP. What happens is that the taxpayer in Tilbury is paying for that.
Mr Preston: I see.
Mr Carrick: But I think there are going to be changes made now that the people in the rural are going to have to pay a little bit towards policing, which they didn't do before.
Mr Ford: Mr Carrick, thanks for coming today. I've got a few questions here, but you've nearly answered them all. It's a privilege to meet a person like you. You've been the mayor, a policeman, you've been on the board, you've done almost everything, and you belong to a major Rotary Club, of which I'm a member and have been for 35 years, so I know the work you've done in these areas. Also, you said you belong to Kiwanis Club, is it?
Mr Carrick: Lions.
Mr Ford: Lions Club -- same thing. Lots of activity, lots of work, lots of commitment.
Mr Carrick: A very good organization.
Mr Ford: I don't see any problem with nominating you for the Tilbury police department. I have been down to Tilbury and I've been to so many small towns in Ontario, it's unbelievable. I was there and I always remember they made steel wool there.
Mr Carrick: No, that's Thamesville.
Mr Ford: Well, maybe that's where I was, then, but I've been to Tilbury too. They have a printing place down there. It prints plastics or something like that, right?
Mr Carrick: Right. There are 23 industries there. You have Siemens and you have Rockwell International.
Mr Ford: Okay, that's Tilbury. I think you'd be an excellent candidate for the police commissioner's office. I have no qualms about that.
Mr Carrick: I plan to do my very best.
Mr Ford: Yes, you seem to be, and congratulations.
Mr Carrick: Thank you.
The Vice-Chair: Any further questions on the government side?
Mr Bob Wood: We'll waive the balance of our time.
The Vice-Chair: I want to thank you for coming today, Mr Carrick. Your being here has been very helpful and I want to wish you well.
Mr Carrick: Thank you.
Mr Bert Johnson: Mr Chair, before he goes, I made a remark that put Mr Carrick and Mr Kormos in a bad light. It was the brunt of some mirth, and I want to apologize. It was out of place.
Mr Kormos: No apologies necessary. I've sat with enough lawyers and politicians in my lifetime to know that I'm nervous around them too.
Mr Duncan: Aren't you a lawyer-politician?
Mr Kormos: You're damn right, and I know too many of them, so no apology necessary. The intent was in jest.
Mr Carrick: I'm sorry, Peter, if I didn't answer your questions properly, but you know what I'm thinking, eh.
Mr Kormos: I know where you're coming from, Mr Carrick.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you very much, Mr Carrick.
Mr Carrick: Thank you, Mr Chair.
LINDA VAN AALST
Review of intended appointment, selected by government party: Linda Van Aalst, intended appointee as member, Owen Sound Police Services Board.
The Vice-Chair: The next interview this morning -- we're running a little ahead of time -- is Linda Van Aalst. Ms Van Aalst, please make yourself at home, be comfortable. If you have an opening statement to make, at your leisure please let us know.
Mrs Linda Van Aalst: Maybe I'll take the opportunity to tell you a little bit more about myself other than what was on my résumé. As I state in my résumé, I have lived and worked in the Owen Sound area for approximately the past 33 years. I am married. I have one child, a daughter who attends the University of Windsor. My husband works for Canada Post Corp. I work for Andres Wines and I have since 1987. As you can imagine, that leads to some interesting discussions at home between labour and management, but we have managed for the past so many years.
I feel very strongly about Owen Sound because it is my community. As I said, I've been there for 33 years, going to school, working, raising my child. That's just a little bit about me.
The Vice-Chair: Okay. Thank you very much. We'll start the questioning this morning with the New Democrat caucus and Mr Kormos.
Mr Kormos: Thank you, Ms Van Aalst. We've got a copy of your résumé attached here. You've been active in the community and it's a sound background. You're involved in the chamber of commerce. You're a business person?
Mrs Van Aalst: Yes.
Mr Kormos: What type of business is that?
Mrs Van Aalst: I work for Andres Wines. I manage a wine shop.
Mr Kormos: Okay. What attracted you to the police services board?
Mrs Van Aalst: It's something I've always been interested in. I have done work with the police services before, or the police department, for quite a number of years. I started actually when my daughter was in public school. We started a bicycle safety committee in Owen Sound promoting safe cycling and the use of helmets, that type of thing. So I worked very closely with the police department with that because of course the police were involved in all our bicycle rodeos and going to the schools to speak to the children.
I was also invited to some crime prevention meetings as well, once as a presenter where I presented a topic on shoplifting and employee theft in the workplace. So I have been involved with them from time to time. It's always been an interest.
Mr Kormos: At this point, I presume there was an ad indicating that there were openings available.
Mrs Van Aalst: Actually a friend of mine had phoned me and mentioned that there was an opening, so I submitted my résumé at that point.
Mr Kormos: A friend called you to advise you that there was an opening?
Mrs Van Aalst: Yes.
Mr Kormos: The friend was in a unique position to know that there was an opening?
Mrs Van Aalst: On city council, actually.
Mr Kormos: Fair enough, because this is a municipal police force, not a regional police force.
Mrs Van Aalst: That's right.
Mr Kormos: What sorts of things are on your agenda? I'm not suggesting it's wrong, I'm suggesting it's normal to have an agenda. What sorts of things do you want to bring to the police services board that are a part of or a reflection of your life and your position in the community?
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Mrs Van Aalst: Something that I feel strongly about and I think most committees and organizations are the same with, the funding cuts. I feel very strongly about having any of the services cut through necessity that would lead to any increased crime or safety issues in the city.
Mr Kormos: It's interesting, because a Niagara regional police officer who I spoke with on videotape recently, and one with 10 years' experience, told me that, for instance, there are no investigations taking place of residential break-and-enters in Niagara region and the only time there's an arrest is when there's a confession. When victims call the police station and call up the CIB, the criminal investigations branch, and say, "How's your investigation coming?" the CIB officer says, "Oh, ma'am, sir, we're on it and we're following up." It's all public relations. In fact, things like residential break-and-enters don't get investigated. I don't think the Niagara region is that different from other police forces. And it's not a matter of skill or competence; they're among the best, I'm sure. They're just understaffed. How do you approach that then as a police services board member? You know what the current line is.
Mrs Van Aalst: At this point, I'm not sure because I haven't been involved with the committee up to this point, so I'd have to reserve judgement on that until I've been more in --
Mr Kormos: I'm not trying to pin you down. You express a concern about the adequacy of policing. Am I fair in putting it to you that way?
Mrs Van Aalst: Yes.
Mr Kormos: And maintaining an adequate level of policing. You know that some police forces are embarking on their own fund-raising?
Mrs Van Aalst: I have heard that, yes.
Mr Kormos: Do you have a gut response to that?
Mrs Van Aalst: No, really I don't. It may be something of necessity. That's something we'd have to look at. I'm very fortunate because July 23 we're having a facilitator come in and we're having a session for the day where we will be planning the budget for 1997, so I've been told. So I'm coming on at a good point where I can get a feel of what --
Mr Kormos: How many members are on the board now?
Mrs Van Aalst: Five.
Mr Kormos: How many are appointed by the government?
Mrs Van Aalst: Three, I believe, and two are municipal.
Mr Kormos: How many are being replaced? Obviously you're replacing --
Mrs Van Aalst: Just one.
Mr Kormos: Who are you replacing? Do you know?
Mrs Van Aalst: I think his name is Chris Martin, but it's not someone I'm familiar with.
Mr Kormos: Are you familiar with any of the other personalities on the board currently?
Mrs Van Aalst: Actually I am. I have worked with them on different committees before.
Mr Kormos: Who are they?
Mrs Van Aalst: Bob Nicol is the vice-chair and he's actually president of the chamber of commerce this year, so we have worked -- and with bicycle safety. He was involved in that through the Kiwanis Club because they were a sponsor. Also, Ross Morrison who was a past president of RBW in Owen Sound, and again I've worked with him on different committees.
Mr Kormos: You're from Bill Murdoch's turf, aren't you?
Mrs Van Aalst: Yes, I am.
Mr Kormos: Is he supportive of your application?
Mrs Van Aalst: Yes, he is.
Mr Kormos: He was made aware of it?
Mrs Van Aalst: Yes.
Mr Kormos: When you made the application?
Mrs Van Aalst: Yes. I let him know at that point.
Mr Kormos: I don't see any letters. Did he write a letter of reference?
Mrs Van Aalst: Not that I'm aware of.
Mr Kormos: Did he talk to anybody? We haven't got any of that material. I like Bill. Do you know whether he's talked to anybody about it?
Mrs Van Aalst: Not that I'm aware of.
Mr Kormos: What did he indicate to you?
Mrs Van Aalst: He was supportive of my application. He's aware of my work in the community. Actually I've known Bill since high school, so he knows how involved I've been.
Mr Kormos: That's a scary prospect.
Mrs Van Aalst: It certainly is.
Mr Kormos: I've not known him that long, but he's a challenge.
Mrs Van Aalst: It does go back a ways.
Mr Kormos: He's something else. I like him. In any event, those are my questions, Chair. Thank you, Ms Van Aalst.
The Vice-Chair: We'll move on to the government caucus.
Mr Ford: Good morning, Linda. Welcome. I've got a couple of questions maybe you can answer. Are you an active member of your community as a volunteer?
Mrs Van Aalst: Yes, I am.
Mr Ford: What prompted you to volunteer for this city's police services board?
Mrs Van Aalst: As I said, it's something I've always been interested in through work with the bicycle safety committee and crime prevention. When you work in a community the size of Owen Sound, you run across the same people over and over again. I have a very strong pride in our police department; I think we have some wonderful individuals on it.
Mr Ford: You've been associated with it previously?
Mrs Van Aalst: Yes.
Mr Ford: Are you familiar with the responsibilities of the police services board?
Mrs Van Aalst: Yes, I am.
Mr Ford: In what way?
Mrs Van Aalst: Just through talking to the chair and the vice-chair, and also I got some material on it and made myself aware of some of the responsibilities.
Mr Ford: Have you been involved with the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, and what experience will this bring to the city of Owen Sound's police services board?
Mrs Van Aalst: I was a director on the Ontario chamber for a year. I don't think being on there for a year gives you a complete feeling of everything they do, but it certainly makes you aware of government processes and how they take place. I think I probably gained more experience through our own chamber of commerce, dealing with the people, because we have one of the first chambers of commerce in Ontario and in the 125th year I took over as the first female president. I certainly gained a lot of experience that year in dealing with the different members and bringing a different outlook to it.
Mr Ford: I made a wrong guess the last time I was talking to the previous gentleman. Is Pillsbury still in Owen Sound?
Mrs Van Aalst: It doesn't ring a bell.
Mr Ford: No? Wrong town again. I must be geographically getting off course here.
I don't think I have any more questions.
Mr Preston: You obviously have broad experience in the community and you're going to bring your broad community perspective to the board. What are the community's concerns with the police department, the police services?
Mrs Van Aalst: Again, because I haven't been directly involved with it, I only know what I've read in the newspaper, and you know that not everything in the newspaper is 100% true.
Mr Preston: Don't believe that, no.
Mrs Van Aalst: I think funding is a big issue.
Mr Preston: That's the primary concern across the province. I don't have any more questions.
Mr Bob Wood: We'll reserve the balance of our time.
Mr Crozier: Good morning. Welcome to the committee. I would say at the outset that I see no reason at all why your appointment won't be confirmed, and I wish you well on the police services board.
I would like to ask you, then, your opinion on a couple of issues. I asked this of the gentleman who appeared before from the Tilbury Police Services Board. You've said you're coming in at the right time in that you're going to be dealing with the 1997 budget shortly and that funding, financial resources, are certainly important to all police services boards.
I suppose you're aware that, for example, if your police services board decides to hire extra officers or employees, it has the complete authority to do so. I think we can agree on that.
Mrs Van Aalst: Yes.
Mr Crozier: But when it comes to reducing the force, you don't have complete authority to do that. The city of Wallaceburg recently reduced its police force by three, notwithstanding the fact that it may not have done it according to the rules. The entire police services board -- and I guess the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services has the authority -- relieved all of the members of the Wallaceburg Police Services Board for the move that it took. Do you agree that the local police services board should have the autonomy to determine not only what officers should be hired but how the force should be reduced if that is deemed to be necessary for financial reasons and the community can continue to be protected adequately?
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Mrs Van Aalst: Again, I don't know enough about the running of it. I would certainly hope if something needed to be reduced in the way of manpower that it certainly wouldn't be the officers out on the street, that there must be another way of reducing costs somewhere.
Mr Crozier: I agree with you it's paramount that our communities be adequately protected, but through circumstances, be it that the province, which they have done, has reduced funding to municipalities, and it may be that the assessment base changes in a municipality, as was the case in Wallaceburg, but the point I'm getting at is -- I wonder how you feel about this -- that the police services board has certain autonomy to do certain things, and yet it would appear when it comes down to a reduction in manpower, constraining the expenditures that the police services board feels are necessary, this can be taken to an independent commission. Notwithstanding all the good reasons you might have, the authority is vested in this provincial body who are not answerable to the citizens in your municipality, and they have the authority to in fact tell you what you're going to do. Would you like to see more authority vested in the local police services board?
Mrs Van Aalst: I can't really answer that, because I don't know exactly how much authority they have. I know on the basis of what I've read exactly what they do, but until I'm more involved in it, I don't know exactly how much authority they have.
Mr Crozier: Certainly I agree with you, you can't answer something you simply aren't familiar with, but I would ask that when you are serving on this board you pay particular attention to the relationship between the Ontario -- they've changed the name, and I want to get this right -- the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services. Pay particular attention to the relationship and the authority that commission has over your board and how it affects the autonomy of your board, and if you feel that should be changed in any way or you have some opinions on that, I urge you then to let the government know how you feel about that.
Having vast experience, I was on a police services board in our own town, and I just had that feeling at the time. I urge appointees to boards to pay particular attention to the authority that you have and how you feel about that authority. I wish you all the best in your appointment.
Mrs Van Aalst: Thank you very much.
The Chair: Mrs Van Aalst, you might note that Mr Crozier is looking particularly elegant today. He's celebrating his birthday, and we wish him a happy birthday.
Mrs Van Aalst: Happy birthday.
Mr Crozier: Thank you.
Interjection: Happy birthday, Mr Crozier.
Mr Crozier: Thank you. I don't feel any older.
The Chair: Are we okay on this side?
Mr Bob Wood: Yes. We waived the balance of our time.
The Chair: Thank you for appearing before the committee. We appreciate your presence here. You probably know the process, that the committee now has a discussion on the various intended appointments, and you will hear very shortly.
Mrs Van Aalst: Thank you very much for inviting me.
The Chair: That brings us to the part on the agenda where we deal with concurrence.
Mr Bob Wood: I move concurrence in Mr Valentine.
The Chair: There's a motion. Do you wish to speak to that?
Mr Bob Wood: I'll speak at the end, if need be.
The Chair: Okay. Any comments? I don't want to rush you. All those in favour of concurrence? It's carried. Thank you.
Mr Bob Wood: I move concurrence in Mr Carrick.
The Chair: You'll speak later? Mr Kormos.
Mr Kormos: We were provided with, as the rules require, the form from the public appointments secretariat which contains, among other things, with respect to Mr Carrick, "Candidate search process," and it indicates on that form that the vacancy was advertised in the local newspapers and interviews were conducted by the public appointments unit and a member of the minister's staff.
I think there's a problem here. I think somehow this one slipped by without -- I don't know how it ended up being recommended for appointment, because Mr Carrick was very candid in telling us that there were no interviews, that he had no contact whatsoever in terms of interviews, in terms of conversation with anybody from the public appointments unit or anybody from the minister's staff. I questioned him pretty thoroughly on that, and Mr Carrick, I am confident, was very candid in his response. I don't suspect him of attempting to mislead the committee at all.
That causes me some great concern, because it appears that Mr Carrick slipped through without having undergone the appropriate interviews. For that reason, it's going to be impossible for me to support his appointment. Needless to say, if I were one of the two police officers who are women in the police services of Tilbury, I'd similarly be concerned.
He's a fine gentleman. I have no quarrel with that. I don't question his cash register integrity. I have no quarrel with that. I don't question his desire to serve the community. I have no quarrel with that.
I do note that once again we're seeing the replacement of a woman member of a police services board, and that's in contrast -- I should indicate I have every intention of supporting Ms Van Aalst. I don't want to prejudge, but I don't think anybody on the committee is going to be in any way critical of Ms Van Aalst. But I think somebody slipped up in the process with Mr Carrick, in that he wasn't interviewed by the public appointments unit nor by a member of the minister's staff. That has to happen; otherwise, the recommendations to this committee aren't the result of a full and thorough search for potential candidates.
Mr Preston: This gentleman, as Mr Kormos says, fulfils all the qualifications. He's got 17 years on the board. He spoke to two persons, "girls" -- which you find offensive. I've got three persons who live at my house. They're girls.
Mr Kormos: I hope they're under 12.
Mr Preston: No, they're not. They happen to be of that sex. I can't understand why there's a problem there.
Mr Kormos: Try calling me "boy" and find out.
Mr Preston: Maybe by looking over his shoulder and reading his correspondence you could tell us who the persons were he did contact, talk to. Oh, you don't know? Well, he did talk to two persons with the government.
Mr Martin: One of them was the secretary in the clerk's office.
Mr Preston: That's one. Who's the other one? I don't know either. I think this man is eminently qualified, and I'd like to call the vote.
Mr Ford: I have to concur with my friend here. He's served Tilbury 17 years as the mayor, 17 years on the police commission, two years Ontario Provincial Police force. Mr Kormos was sitting on his knee there for about five or 10 minutes questioning the man, and the man's committed himself to the Rotary Club, the Lions Club and any other club that's down there, community service, has a business there. Where are you going to get anybody more qualified? I can't see anybody else more qualified than that.
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Mr Bartolucci: I'm going to support the candidate, but let me tell you, he has to improve the descriptive words he uses. Being a member of a police services board highlights you in the community, and you have to be very, very careful of what you say and how you say it.
He likes to show he's a Tory, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I would suggest that it's common courtesy, when he copies a letter to a member, that he might want to copy the member who represents the riding along with the member who borders the riding. He clearly is in Mr Hoy's riding, and it might have been proper, if he was going to copy anybody, to copy the member as well the PC member.
But the guy has 17 years of experience as a police commissioner, he has 17 years of dedication to the community in the political area, so he is qualified.
Mr Preston, I have two at home and I consider them to be ladies, and I would suggest to you --
Mr Preston: That's a qualification of "girls." "Ladies and gentlemen."
Mr Bartolucci: "Women," as opposed to "girls."
Mr Kormos: Or "persons."
The Chair: Is the committee ready for the question on this concurrence?
Mr Kormos: A recorded vote, please.
The Chair: Sure.
Ayes
Bartolucci, Jim Brown, Doyle, Ford, Fox, Bert Johnson, Preston, Bob Wood.
Nays
Kormos, Martin.
The Chair: The concurrence is carried.
Mr Bob Wood: I move concurrence in the intended appointment of Mrs Van Aalst.
Mr Kormos: Mr Chair, if I may, I know it's been a tough 40 years through the 1950s, through the Eisenhower era, into the 1960s, and by God the 1960s were tough in their own right, but here we are in the 1990s --
The Chair: Are you speaking to his motion?
Mr Kormos: Yes. Surely we can adjust, as adults -- and noting that the committee at this point is entirely consisting of men -- adjust to the realities of 1996, and that is that you don't call women "girls" any more than you call men "boys." These have inherent in them connotations which are derogatory, which are sexist, which are demeaning, which reflect an era that, thank goodness, is past, that quite frankly betray an attitude which has no place in civilized society and shouldn't have any place in this Legislative Assembly and shouldn't be a part of the language or of the culture of people, 130 of us, who are pressed with the responsibility of representing the people of our ridings and providing some leadership to this province.
The transcript of today's proceedings, if it found itself somehow into the public sphere, would reveal this committee to be something akin to a good-ol'-boy, backroom meeting somewhere down in the south --
Mr Ed Doyle (Wentworth East): Why did you use the word "boy" if they're grown men?
Mr Kormos: -- with our pickup truck tailgates down and the case of Jax beer sitting there and the Mack Truck caps perched on our heads; as a bunch of good ol' boys, redneck, if you will, decide the fate of the rest of the community.
I want to very seriously put on record a serious concern about the language and about the attitude it reflects. I think it's repugnant. I think it's highly objectionable. Quite frankly, I think it's unparliamentary to refer to women as "girls" during the course of discussion or debate, either in committee or in the Legislature. I would ask you, Chair, to use your authority. We would no more refer to women as girls than we would refer to people of any number of racial groups by titles that constitute slurs and bigotry and reveal the same sort of barbaric right-wingism. I would ask the Chair to exercise its authority to control the use of that type of language. It's very sad.
The Chair: I appreciate that that's said in a serious way. Obviously, the Chair cannot rule on that kind of language, but Mr Kormos is tapping into something that is real out there about women being called girls. I think it's not just in the interest of the population at large that we don't do that, but in the interest of MPPs themselves -- self-interest, if you want to put it on that level as well. It is not bad advice.
Mr Preston: There is no question about that, and I was making some remarks in jest. I do call -- my girls are my girls, but I would not refer to the women who work here as "the girls." But I do find it very strange that we get that kind of rhetoric from somebody who has no respect for anything.
Mr Bartolucci: On a point of order, Mr Chair: That's completely out of line. Respect begets respect, and if he wants to be respected he should try showing some respect for the other member.
Mr Preston: This gentleman walks in and out of the chamber and doesn't acknowledge anybody or anything.
Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings): Can we move on with the vote?
The Chair: I hope we can. Are we ready for the vote on the motion? I don't want to rush you, but -- you're shaking your head.
Mr Fox: Call the vote.
Mr Martin: Mr Chair, as to the comments of the member across, I can't even find a word to describe it. If that's where we're leading, if that's the kind of environment we want in this place, then continue.
Interjection.
The Chair: Order, please. We have a speaking list. Mr Brown.
Mr Jim Brown (Scarborough West): I'm shocked at Mr Kormos's putdown of people who wear Mack Truck hats and participate in tailgate parties. I have so many people in my riding who are just common, little folk, and he's putting them down.
The Chair: Okay. We've dealt with that point of order then. Can we get on with the concurrence motion?
All those in favour of Mr Wood's motion for concurrence, please indicate. Opposed? It's carried. Thank you for that.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT
The Chair: The next item of business is the report of the subcommittee of yesterday at which there were two appointments selected.
Mr Bert Johnson: I don't know if this is a question or a statement, but I got a copy of the subcommittee's report. I got it at 11:05 today. It's slanted across the page and there's a smudge on it. I'm just not used to the quality of work that is demonstrated by this. I don't know how to address the concern, but I wouldn't allow it out of my office and I don't think it should be presented to me, as a permanent document, as a member of the committee.
The Chair: I gather there was a problem with the photocopier this morning.
Mr Bob Wood: There are some good copies around. I'll give you one if you lack one.
The Chair: There are two names selected.
Mr Bob Wood: I move adoption of the subcommittee report.
The Chair: All those in favour? Opposed? It's carried.
The only other item I want to mention is that next Thursday morning -- we picked Thursday morning because cabinet meets on the Wednesday; it was Mr Wood's suggestion, I think -- we'll have a subcommittee meeting by telephone between Mr Wood, Mr Crozier, Mr Martin and ourselves here at the table to talk about any scheduling. We'll know then as well the schedule of the committee for the summer. The House leaders are dealing with it again tomorrow morning. I hope that's in keeping with the wishes of the committee.
Mr Bob Wood: That sounds good.
The Chair: It sounds reasonable? And then of course we would let members of the committee know.
Mr Bartolucci: Do we know anything about a summer schedule?
The Chair: The whips met to set the schedule. Mr Martin may know more about this than I, because he was talking to the whip. We requested August 7 -- I could be out a day here -- and September 4, roughly, and they came back with a July date and an August date. So we're back at them again to try and get them to plug in the dates this committee had requested. They're going to be dealing with that tomorrow morning when they set all the dates for all the committees. We've put the wishes of the committee before them. At the end of the day, they'll make the decision. I see no reason they wouldn't comply with our request, but I don't know the conflicts with any other committees and so forth.
Mr Martin: But the travel to the north has been turned down.
The Chair: That's off, yes. We're not going north, but please come north anyway.
Mr Bob Wood: I move adjournment.
The Chair: Thank you, boys. It's been nice working with you this session.
The committee adjourned at 1122.