Legislative Assembly of Ontario

The committee met at 1601 in room 228.

AGGREGATE RESOURCES ACT REVIEW

SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Okay, folks, we’ll get started, during our normal committee time for general government. We’ve got a subcommittee report, so if I could ask Ms. Scott to read the report, we can start.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Sure.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Go ahead.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Your subcommittee on committee business met on Tuesday, June 12, 2012, to further consider the method of proceeding on its review of the Aggregate Resources Act (ARA) and recommends the following:

(1) That the committee meet in Dufferin–Caledon, Kitchener–Waterloo, Manitoulin Island and Ottawa for the purpose of touring quarry sites and/or to conduct public hearings on Wednesday, June 27, 2012; Monday, July 9, 2012; Monday, July 16, 2012; and Tuesday, July 17, 2012, or Wednesday, July 18, 2012.

(2) That the clerk of the committee post information regarding the committee’s business in English and French on the Ontario parliamentary channel, on the Legislative Assembly website, and with the CNW NewsWire service.

(3) That the clerk of the committee place an advertisement in a major newspaper for one day in each of the locations where the committee intends to hold public hearings and that the advertisements be placed in both English and French papers where possible.

(4) That groups and individuals be offered 10 minutes for their presentations, followed by five minutes of questions on a rotational basis.

(5) That interested people who wish to be considered to appear before the committee on Wednesday, June 27, 2012, should contact the clerk of the committee by Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 12 noon.

(6) That if all requests to appear on June 27, 2012, cannot be accommodated, the clerk of the committee provide the members of the subcommittee with a list of requests to appear, and that each of the subcommittee members prioritize and return the list to the clerk of the committee by Friday, June 22, 2012, at 12 noon.

(7) That interested people who wish to be considered to appear before the committee on July 9, 2012, July 16, 2012, July 17, 2012, or July 18, 2012, should contact the clerk of the committee by Tuesday, July 3, 2012, at 12 noon.

(8) That if all requests to appear on July 9, 2012, July 16, 2012, July 17, 2012, or July 18, 2012, cannot be accommodated, the clerk of the committee provide the members of the subcommittee with a list of requests to appear, and that each of the subcommittee members prioritize and return the list to the clerk of the committee by Wednesday, July 4, 2012, at 12 noon.

(9) That the deadline for receipt of written submissions on the ARA review be 5 p.m. on Tuesday, July 17, 2012.

(10) That the clerk of the committee, in consultation with the Chair, be authorized to commence making any preliminary arrangements necessary to facilitate the committee’s proceedings prior to the adoption of this report.

I move that said committee report be adopted.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Ms. Scott moves its adoption. Questions or comments? Ms. Jones.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I guess it’s a form of friendly amendment. I see that we’ve listed five dates in our subcommittee report. The programming motion said that we could have four. I have a problem with July 9 and am wondering if we could amend the subcommittee report to just list June 27, July 16, July 17 and July 18. It would not change the dates that the subcommittee already discussed, but it would make my life a lot easier.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Okay. The clerk has informed me that the way this is worded here is obviously to give us some flexibility around logistics, to figure where we can get to and what days we can get there. Obviously, we need to have some discussion around the number of dates because, as you pointed out, we’ve got five—we talked about that—that have some flexibility, but there will only be four. I’m not sure if the committee wants to comment on what days particularly we would like to try to get to certain locations. We seemed to have some agreement, tentatively, during the subcommittee meeting on what would work where and when to try to do our best to accommodate everybody’s schedule.

Mr. Coteau, do you want to go?

Mr. Michael Coteau: Yes, at the subcommittee meeting that we had a couple of days ago, there was an agreement that June 27 was a good date, the 9th, the 16th, then we agreed that it would either be the—I’m sorry, the 27th and 9th, then we’d either take the 16th and 17th or the 17th and 18^th. But I think there was an agreement that the three days combined were a bit too much. That was my understanding.

It was also my understanding that the 27th would be reserved for I think it was Kitchener–Waterloo and the 9th would be for Manitoulin Island, if that’s correct.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Dufferin–Caledon—

Mr. Michael Coteau: Dufferin–Caledon, that’s right, then the 9th would be at Manitoulin Island. Then the 16th, 17th or 18th—two of those three dates would be used for the remainder of the locations.

I don’t think it would be a good idea to remove the 9th. It was my understanding that we agreed as subcommittee members at that time that those dates would actually work.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Ms. Jones, is there a particular location that you want to ensure that you’re at, and on a particular date? Does the 27th work for you in Dufferin–Caledon?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes, I have no issues with any of the other dates and I intend to participate as much as I can. I’m just trying to get away from the 9th.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Okay.

Interjection.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Unless there’s another suggestion for another date, I—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: My initial suggestion was to extend it to the 19th, but when I realized you already had five dates there, by removing one, you still have the parameters of the programming motion that allow us to sit and travel for four days.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Right. I think part of the challenge as well, as I think there may be some members from all of the parties looking to sub in for members who are on the committee, is a little more flexibility with the dates being spread out a bit—

Mr. Rosario Marchese: I mean, I understand the argument that the subcommittee made, which is to try to break it up so you don’t have three whole days. Are you going to be able to find someone else to sit in that day?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Oh, yes. That’s not the challenge; it’s that I would like to participate.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Then I think we should leave it the way the subcommittee had requested, because then it breaks it up better for people.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Can I just ask, on the 16th and 17th, is it the committee’s preference that we try to identify that now, the 16th and 17th or 17th and 18th, for Kitchener–Waterloo and Ottawa, which would allow—they’re larger urban centres—travel to Kitchener, and then we’d be able to fly to Toronto, perhaps, to get to Ottawa for—

Interjection.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Yes, go ahead.

Ms. Laurie Scott: I just wanted to not comment directly to your comments, but just say, is it okay if we just added to the 19th, so just say 16th, 17th, 18th or 19th? We know there are only four days, but if that week—it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re all together; it just means there’s just a—

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Laurie, what we’re doing is saying the 27th and the 9th—that’s one block—and then two more days. He’s saying, we have to choose either the 16th and 17th or 17th and 18th as the other possibility.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Oh, I just thought if we gave four days, there’s flexibility. It’s just—

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Sorry, just for clarification: Just in terms of logistics—because originally, we were thinking about, around the 16th and 17th, Kitchener–Waterloo and then Ottawa. One is west; one is east. We would have to probably take a bus to Kitchener–Waterloo for the day to do a quarry site or see that, plus public hearings, then we need to get back to Toronto. Then, maybe the day after, fly to Ottawa. It’s purely logistics in terms of the timing. I could totally foresee the 16th being in Kitchener–Waterloo and the 18th being in Ottawa, just for logistics to get you guys back to Toronto and then fly to Ottawa.

Mr. Michael Coteau: So let’s just agree to that, then—the 16th and the 18th—if that’s okay with everyone.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): I think we need agreement that—

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Ms. Laurie Scott: The 16th and 18th I’m not worried about. It’s not—

Mr. Michael Coteau: Okay.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): I just made it broad so it’s easier, because we just met yesterday; just for logistics, just to kind of see how we can play around with it.

Ms. Laurie Scott: And we were just—yes, and I know at that point we didn’t know that Sylvia couldn’t—

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Right.

Ms. Laurie Scott: It was just a matter that we didn’t know at that point.

Have we further investigated Manitoulin, if that’s even possible, on the 9th? Because I know we’d have to go up a Sunday night. That was my question. It might just be hard.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Yes, we looked into it. It’s quite a hike to get there. It would definitely have to be a day before. The suggestions were—we contacted the Ontario Stone, Sand and Gravel Association, as per the subcommittee’s request. They gave a bunch of options. There’s one big quarry there. Maybe, Jerry, you want to speak to this?

Ms. Laurie Scott: I was just wondering about travel. Do we need to go up the day before? Is Sunday night a problem?

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): I’m looking—definitely, and where the quarry is, you can’t have public hearings there. You can’t stay there. So we’d have to fly to Meldrum Bay, maybe charter a flight, then we’d have to go to maybe Espanola to stay over, then we’d have to have hearings. Manitoulin Island is going to be quite—

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): It’s very difficult to get to.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): It’s very difficult, especially for the one day, unless the committee would want to just do the quarry site there and not do hearings, or whatever, because we only have one day. Granted, travel is not considered a day.

Jerry?

Mr. Jerry Richmond: Yesterday, Tamara and I, following the subcommittee’s direction, had an extensive chat with Moreen Miller, the president of OSSGA. We batted around various options for the four travel days. She came back to us with a number of options. She has an excellent knowledge of their membership. Manitoulin is the most difficult one to get to, but it’s doable.

Once we sort of firm down where we want to go, she indicated to us, of course, she has to then talk to their member companies and they have to make sure that we can go on the site on those days. We have to wear protective gear—

Interjection.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Yes.

Mr. Jerry Richmond: But anyway, she came back to us with some very doable options and it reflects some of the committee’s interest to see pits and quarries on the Niagara Escarpment, some of them that are engaged in recycling, some of them that operate below the water table. And the one on Manitoulin relies upon Great Lakes Shipping to get its product to market, and also some of the options have the facility to use rail, so we worked in some of those options. We tried to cover all the parameters.

Ms. Laurie Scott: That’s fine.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Thanks for that, Jerry. That’s very helpful.

The 9th, for example—I mean, it’s one thing to have a spot where it’s convenient to fly in to, where you could have the hearings on the 9th. Given that Manitoulin Island is a bit more difficult to get to, is there any consideration, perhaps, of doing this on the 10th so that the travel day could be the Monday so it’s not on the weekend when people have other commitments or family commitments, to try to get to that location?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Did Sarah say that the 9th was better for her than another day? Because I don’t know.

Mr. Michael Coteau: You know what? I know that she agreed to that, but I don’t know if the 9th-10th would be better than the 8th-9th, to be honest, for her. Why don’t we recess for five minutes and you give her a call, or two minutes?

Ms. Laurie Scott: Can I just throw this out there? If we need some more flexibility, why don’t we do Manitoulin on the 16th and 17th and put Ottawa on the 9th or something? Is that maybe easier to do than trying to go up on a Sunday night? I’m just trying to make Manitoulin have a little bit more flexibility of a weekday night, going up and getting rooms, as opposed—I don’t know. I just thought—because I know that Sarah had mentioned—I wrote down her things if you don’t mind me saying—the 16th or the 18th for Manitoulin were okay for her if you wanted to move Manitoulin, if you haven’t done already too much work. I just don’t know.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): No, no, it was all just preliminary.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Yes, if we’re doing Manitoulin on the 9th—

Ms. Laurie Scott: So maybe Ottawa on the 9th, if we wanted to—

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): —there’s no way to do that without including the weekend for travel, if we leave Manitoulin on the 9th. So you’re suggesting—

Mr. Michael Coteau: Can I ask a quick question in regard to getting there? Isn’t it just a matter of just going to—is it Tobermory?—and then taking the ferry?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: That’s one option.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): That’s one option.

Mr. Michael Coteau: Jerry, why do you shake your head?

Mr. Jerry Richmond: In turns out the quarry site, the big Lafarge quarry site, is on the western tip of the island. So even once you’re on the island you have to travel quite a bit. Most of the—

Mr. Michael Coteau: How far?

Mr. Jerry Richmond: An hour or two.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes, it’s an hour and a half.

Mr. Jerry Richmond: Even if you were already on the island, most of the settled part of the island is on the east side and this quarry site is almost on the extreme western tip of the island. The island itself—the mainland to the north is joined by highway connection. The ferry runs from Tobermory to the south shore of Manitoulin, so most of the access is from the north.

Mr. Michael Coteau: Is there another site that’s in northern Ontario that is easier to access that we could go to?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: If I may: I think part of the motivation for Manitoulin was the fact that it was unique in terms of its shipping and it is, I believe, currently the largest operating quarry in the province of Ontario.

Mr. Michael Coteau: Okay, that makes sense.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: So there were a couple of reasons why it was on the list.

Mr. Jerry Richmond: Moreen Miller also mentioned that once we work out our schedule, she might try to schedule with Lafarge a day when they’re actually loading a ship, to see that they’re loading their aggregate product onto a Great Lakes freighter.

Mr. Michael Coteau: Yes, makes sense.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): I mean, I understand those concerns just around it’s the largest, it’s got some unique aspects. Are we hearing any comment from the communities in the area about there being concerns about that particular location? Would it generally make more sense to be in an area where there’s more public concern about where a quarry may be, than just simply because it’s the largest quarry in the province? Or is there some particular motivation for seeing this?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: You’d have to actually review all the written presentations and requests that have already come in, but I don’t think we put it on the list because it was of concern. I think we put it on the list because it was unique and it was doing some things that some of our deputants have raised about why aren’t we doing more travel by rail and why aren’t we doing more ships. That’s why it was on the list, not specifically because we’d heard opposition.

Mr. Michael Coteau: I think we’ll have an answer around the 9th or 10th.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): So Dufferin–Caledon on the 27th: Do we have agreement on the 27th for Dufferin–Caledon?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: It’s good for me.

Mr. Michael Coteau: Again, it’s not good for me, but I’m sure I’ll be able to find someone. I said that yesterday or two days ago. Was it yesterday at the meeting? But I will try to find someone for that.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: It’s the only one I can attend. I’m okay with that.

Mr. Michael Coteau: And I think that was part of the motivation.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: I would have loved to have gone to Manitoulin.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Mr. Marchese, would the 10th work for Manitoulin?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: I’m trying to get a hold of Sarah to see if she could come in right away so that I could get some help here.

Ms. Laurie Scott: It doesn’t work for me.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): It doesn’t work for you. Okay.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): We’d have to travel back on the 10th. Would you be able to go if we did that?

Ms. Laurie Scott: So do the 9th hearing and travel back on the 10th?

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): This is how I see it: I see travel on the 8th, Manitoulin Island on the 9th and then travel back on the 10th.

Mr. Michael Coteau: That’s three days.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Unless we don’t have—

Ms. Laurie Scott: Now that we’re getting the full story we’re all like, “Whoa.”

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Is there a way to—

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Unless we don’t have public hearings.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Unless we go there and see the quarry.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Unless we just go to the quarry and that’s it, and we don’t have to have public hearings.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: So the only way to do northern public hearings if we removed Manitoulin or something adjacent to it would be Ottawa? There’s a lot of extraction that happens in the north.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): We only have so many days, right?

Ms. Laurie Scott: If we had to go up the night before—just tell me if I’m wrong on this—to wherever it be, Sudbury or Espanola, then we have to go to the quarry and back to Espanola. Is that four hours? Would that not be, to travel to—if we’re already there the night before and we travelled from wherever to the quarry—

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): If you go into Sudbury on Sunday night and then organize transportation from Sudbury to the quarry on Monday by vehicle or bus—

Ms. Laurie Scott: Because you can drive that. The north part you can drive.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Yes. You could fly into Sudbury, you could take a vehicle, go to the quarry, take the vehicle back at the end of the day and stay in Sudbury or fly back. But you’re talking—

Ms. Laurie Scott: But it’s not a whole day tour of the quarry, though. Is there not three hours we could—

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): We also add travel time.

Ms. Laurie Scott: So it’s more than two hours travel time each way?

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): You might be able to hold hearings in Sudbury—

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Ms. Laurie Scott: Yes, that’s what I was just thinking.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): —at a location, at a hotel, wherever the group was staying, later in the day, for a few hours, and you could check off that there were hearings held in the north.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Yes, that’s what I was thinking.

Interjection.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: And that would be the best place to have it, you’re saying, right?

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): I would think, generally speaking, that’s where you’re probably going to draw the largest—

Mr. Rosario Marchese: And in terms of where people would have concerns around that, it would be possibly there or somewhere closer to where the—

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): I haven’t heard concerns about the site in Manitoulin.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: I don’t know either.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): But I think, logistically, it’s difficult to do something on Manitoulin Island in terms of the—

Ms. Laurie Scott: Yes, that’s fine. Fair enough. I understand that.

Interjection: There’s no accommodation—

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): For members travelling, I think what would perhaps make the most sense is to get to Sudbury the evening before, and then some kind of transportation to the site on Monday. We’d have to figure out how long of a tour. You just need to get here, you need to see it, you need to have a couple of hours on-site, you need to get back, and then you could have a couple of hours of hearings. You could fly out either that night or the next morning—probably the next morning.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Right. So would that be too much to do—if we flew in the night before, whichever it was, do Manitoulin, fly out either that night or that morning—to put Ottawa in? I mean, where do the flights go?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: So, Sudbury to Ottawa, instead of Sudbury to Toronto and back?

Interjection.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Yes, you could get Bearskin.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Yes, and we could put that in that—

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): You could get Bearskin from Sudbury to Ottawa if you—

Ms. Laurie Scott: We could do that on the 16th and 17th.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I know we’ve travelled in other committees where we do—

Ms. Laurie Scott: The 17th and 18th, yes.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: —it’s quite common to do Ottawa-Sudbury, Sudbury-Ottawa.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Yes, I know.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes.

Interjections.

Mr. Jerry Richmond: It’s not going to snow at that time.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): So you mean put Manitoulin on the 16th?

Interjections.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Yes. I was going to ask Sylvia—

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Or on the 17th?

Ms. Laurie Scott: —if we put Manitoulin and Ottawa in—

Interjections.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: So, the 16th, obviously, right?

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): So then we travel on the 15th, then?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes, and then K-W goes to the 9th? So, basically, you’re flipping Manitoulin and K-W?

Mr. Michael Coteau: Can you run through the dates that they’ve suggested so far?

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): The dates? The 27th, the 9th—

Mr. Michael Coteau: Yes, but give me the locations now. The 27th—

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Dufferin–Caledon on the 27th. We haven’t got a determination on the 9th on where we want to go, but what I’m hearing is—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: What we were just suggesting—

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): —what you’re suggesting is Kitchener–Waterloo on the 9th and then do Manitoulin on the 16th.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: And then Ottawa on the 17th.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Logistics—can we leave it open?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): We should group the—

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Yes, just leave me something—

Interjections.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Okay. The only thing we really need to clarify is—otherwise, there’s enough flexibility in item number one on the subcommittee report that Tamara can take a look at the logistics here—if we’re going to do Dufferin–Caledon on the 27th and Kitchener–Waterloo on the 9th, then we can work with the logistics on Manitoulin and Ottawa between the 16th and 18th.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Yes.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I apologize for putting a wrench in it, but that makes my life a lot easier.

Mr. Michael Coteau: That’s fine. Now, the only other issue, Mr. Chair, that we should agree on is, are we going to do half-day site visits, half-day public deputations for these? Is that the agreement?

Ms. Laurie Scott: Yes.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I think that makes sense.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): I don’t know that we have—

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): The information we got from the Ontario Stone, Sand and Gravel Association—that was kind of what we relayed—that was our wish list in terms of, like the morning for quarry sites and then the afternoon for hearings.

When you take in logistics of travelling to these sites and then doing the tours, then coming back—lunch, obviously—we’re looking at approximately two, three hours of public hearings. Is that sufficient?

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): I think that’s—well—

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): And then, for example, Dufferin–Caledon, we would leave—

Mr. Rosario Marchese: But we would also have a good sense of how many people would be interested, so that if you have to stretch it out an hour, you might be able to do that, right?

Ms. Laurie Scott: We could do that. We may need to.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): I guess it just depends, for day trips, what time you guys want to get back. The main thing is the day trips, like the Dufferin–Caledon, what time you want to get back to Toronto.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): And whether you want to be there another night or you want to be able to leave that day. We’ve had 30 presentations here on this. We’ve got a few hours for—go ahead, Ms. Jones.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: As I understand it, even with the programming motion and the agreement from the House leaders, we, as a committee, have the ability to extend beyond the traditional 9-to-5 day. If that means that we start our tour at 8, then we can do that, if that logistically makes sense—

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Yes, it does.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: And we have the ability at the point where “if all requests cannot be accommodated,” we can also talk about extending the hearings beyond the traditional 5 p.m. or whatever.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Yes, you could if you had to, yes.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes, and I would like to suggest that you want to leave that flexibility there, in case you do need it for certain areas.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: But if we have a deadline in terms of whether people want to depute, then we’ll know, and we’ll able to book the flights in advance and—

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Okay, well, just on the individual days—

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): The day trips—I’m thinking Dufferin–Caledon: Leave Queen’s Park at 7 a.m. to get to Dufferin–Caledon by 8:30, then quarry stuff. There are a few suggestions for different areas. Then lunch, then I’m thinking of starting around 2 p.m. until—it depends on what time you guys want to do deputations till—eat dinner and then drive back to Toronto. The main thing is for the day trips, because we’re not staying overnight.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): I mean, that’s fine. I would just say that if we can’t all go on all of these, and we’re going to be looking for members to sub in, when you say to another member to sub in, “Hey, do you want to get on a bus at 7 a.m.?”, it’s going to be a little more difficult. Maybe not, but I think we should try to keep the schedule as manageable as possible, for the flexibility of all the members.

Mr. Michael Coteau: Did we agree that two to three hours would be—like, a three-hour cap for the day, and then three, four hours for the site visit? Can we just agree that the deputations would be held at three hours, then? Is that fine? Because with travel—

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): If we have a tour, we have a tour.

Mr. Michael Coteau: We can’t squeeze two days in one.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Ms. Jones?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Only speaking for Dufferin–Caledon, you will be challenged if you limit it to two hours.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Mr. Coteau said three hours, not two.

Mr. Michael Coteau: Three hours, yes. That would be fine. You know the community better—

Mr. Rosario Marchese: I think you’d get a good sense—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes, okay.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): That’s 12 presentations.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Well, I mean, we’re going to other locations, so—

Mr. Michael Coteau: Here’s the point. I say three hours, not specifically towards your community, but in general, only because if we’re travelling for three hours in a day, we’re stopping for lunch, we’re going on a site visit and we’re doing deputations. It’s 15 hours. You can’t squeeze that. So we have to be very specific. I would like agreement on the amount of time, just so we have a good understanding of what our day’s going to look like.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Tamara or whoever, what does it look like? We’re talking about Manitoulin Island in particular, right, or other places?

Mr. Michael Coteau: No, we’re talking just in general.

Interjections.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Tamara, can I ask you a favour?

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Are we okay with three hours for a tour of an aggregate pit?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Yes, I think so.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Is that adequate? Three hours for hearings and three hours for a tour? Then we’ve got to build in all the travel time and the additional to complete the day. If we can get some kind of rough—it might not be exact, but then we can get some logistical feedback.

What we need to do right now is we need to approve this—because we’ve got an idea on the dates and which dates are attached to which locations—and let Tamara come back with some of the logistics for the committee. We can have a conference call to follow up on this.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Yes, sounds okay.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Full committee or by subcommittee?

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): The subcommittee can do that.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Subcommittee agreement? Can the subcommittee agree to it?

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Can the subcommittee agree to this after? Okay.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Can I just ask you a favour?

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Yes.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Tamara, if you could just summarize some of the changes that were being suggested to make sure that they’re okay. It sounds reasonable to me.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Okay. So we’re thinking, as mentioned yesterday, Dufferin–Caledon for June 27, switching to July 9 for Kitchener–Waterloo, and then between the 16th—

Mr. Rosario Marchese: July 9 for Kitchener–Waterloo?

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Yes.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Originally it was Manitoulin on the 9th. Manitoulin on the 9th is what was discussed?

Ms. Sarah Campbell: Yes.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Yes. I mean, I understand if you’re—I don’t know—logistically, getting from Kitchener to Ottawa, I had originally thought was probably more convenient, but perhaps either would work.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Kitchener–Waterloo to Ottawa. How about back to Toronto, and then fly in?

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Well, you’d come into Toronto. Everyone would come into Toronto, bus over to Kitchener, hearings, back and fly to Ottawa.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Go home for an evening and then—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: That’s two hours, Kitchener–Waterloo to Toronto and then Toronto to Ottawa.

Interjection.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Well, Manitoulin Island is much more difficult to navigate and get to.

Mr. Michael Coteau: Mr. Chair, can I ask a quick question?

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Yes, Mr. Coteau?

Mr. Michael Coteau: A quick question: The Kitchener–Waterloo location and—what are the two?

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Dufferin–Caledon.

Mr. Michael Coteau: Do we have to see both sites? Can we limit it to one of them and then just focus on three of those locations and maybe do a visit—if we’re going to Manitoulin Island, take two days for that and then do one of those sites in Ottawa? Is there a stark difference between those two communities? I don’t know.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Between Kitchener–Waterloo and Dufferin–Caledon?

Mr. Michael Coteau: Yes.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Yes. Again, I’m going from memory here, but as I understand it, Kitchener–Waterloo was highlighted as an example where there was a lot of rehabilitation that has already occurred, and because Jerry is nodding his head in agreement, my memory is not lost. And of course, Dufferin–Caledon is the site of the proposed mega-quarry, so it has very unique challenges unto itself, which is why I don’t want to box us in to saying three hours for all of them.

Mr. Michael Coteau: There is no site visit, really, there, right? Because it’s just a proposed location. That should be—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: That I don’t know.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): Sorry, where?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Dufferin–Caledon.

The Clerk Pro Tem (Ms. Tamara Pomanski): There are site visits.

Mr. Michael Coteau: But there is no actual—there’s nothing that has happened on the site, right? It has just been kind of cornered off?

Mr. Jerry Richmond: The response that Tamara and I got from the Ontario Sand and Gravel with respect to Dufferin–Caledon, they put to us various options to visit various pits and quarries, operational ones. It’s quite true with respect to the so-called mega-quarry in Melancthon. That’s—

Mr. Michael Coteau: Are those smaller quarries any different from the Kitchener–Waterloo site that we’ll go to?

Mr. Jerry Richmond: No. They’re mid to major operations and they will also show some of these—

Mr. Michael Coteau: So there’s no—we’re going to see the same types of sites, right?

Mr. Jerry Richmond: They’re going to show us various aspects of rehabilitation, recycling, below-water operations.

Interjections.

Mr. Michael Coteau: That’s right. That was the reason. I remember that now.

Let’s start from the beginning, Mr. Chair. Start with the 27th again.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): We may have to come back to a conference call on the specific locations. I think—

Ms. Laurie Scott: We’re okay with the dates.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): We’re okay with the dates? I think we’re okay with the dates.

Mr. Michael Coteau: The 27th and 9th, the 16th, 17th or 18th.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Right. Why don’t we just approve this as it is and we’ll come back and try to sort the dates out.

Interjections.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Yes, the locations, coordinate the locations with the dates.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: David, if you could just call Sarah for these dates it would make it easier.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Sarah, if you want to just let the clerk’s office know which dates work and who can get where, then we can do that. Okay?

Mr. Michael Coteau: And just the other point: Have we agreed with the three-hour, three-hour, or no?

Interjection.

Mr. Michael Coteau: No? Okay.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: No. We’re doing this as it is, correct? We’re not adding the time limitations.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): We’re not adding anything, but we’re going to need to come back with some parameters at some point.

Approval of the subcommittee—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I’d like to suggest that you come back with those parameters once you get your deputation list. It could fall under the same point as point 6.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Okay. As long as we can get agreement from the subcommittee following approval of this. We don’t have to come back to the whole committee on this. Are we okay with that?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: Yes.

The Chair (Mr. David Orazietti): Okay. All those in favour of the subcommittee report? Opposed? Carried. Thank you.

The committee adjourned at 1634.

CONTENTS

Wednesday 13 June 2012

Aggregate Resources Act review G-361

Subcommittee report G-361

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GENERAL GOVERNMENT

Chair / Président

Mr. David Orazietti (Sault Ste. Marie L)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Président

Mr. David Zimmer (Willowdale L)

Ms. Sarah Campbell (Kenora–Rainy River ND)

Mr. Michael Coteau (Don Valley East / Don Valley-Est L)

Mr. Joe Dickson (Ajax–Pickering L)

Mr. Rosario Marchese (Trinity–Spadina ND)

Mr. David Orazietti (Sault Ste. Marie L)

Ms. Laurie Scott (Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock PC)

Mr. Todd Smith (Prince Edward–Hastings PC)

Mr. Jeff Yurek (Elgin–Middlesex–London PC)

Mr. David Zimmer (Willowdale L)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants

Mr. Kim Craitor (Niagara Falls L)

Ms. Sylvia Jones (Dufferin–Caledon PC)

Clerk pro tem / Greffière par intérim

Ms. Tamara Pomanski

Staff / Personnel

Mr. Jerry Richmond, research officer,
Legislative Research Service