STANDING COMMITTEE ON GENERAL GOVERNMENT
COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES GOUVERNEMENTALES
Monday 8 December 2003 Lundi 8 décembre 2003
The committee met at 1606 in room 151.
ELECTION OF CHAIR
Clerk of the Committee (Ms Tonia Grannum): Honourable members, it's my duty to call upon you to elect a Chair. Are there any nominations?
Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings): I would like to nominate Jean-Marc Lalonde.
Mr Jerry J. Ouellette (Oshawa): I would second that nomination.
Clerk of the Committee: Are there any further nominations? Seeing no further nominations, I declare Mr Lalonde elected as Chair of the standing committee on general government.
The Chair (Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde): First, I'd like to thank the mover and the seconder for their confidence, and all of you people.
ELECTION OF VICE-CHAIR
The Chair: The second item on the agenda: May I have names for the election of Vice-Chair?
Mr Lou Rinaldi (Northumberland): I would like to move Mr Dhillon as Vice-Chair.
The Chair: Moved by Lou Rinaldi. Seconded by?
Mrs Maria Van Bommel (Lambton-Kent-Middlesex): I'll second it.
The Chair: I've got to get all the names. Any other nominations? Any nominations, twice? Three times, any nominations? If none, I declare Mr Dhillon as the Vice-Chair of the standing committee on general government. Congratulations.
Just before I proceed with the other items on the agenda, I'd just like to make sure that you people are fully aware of the conflict-of-interest items that appear in the resource binder. If you have any doubt or any questions about conflict of interest, you could contact the Integrity Commissioner at any time, like I just did today on another matter. We get the answers pretty fast from that office.
The other thing I'd like to make you aware of is that the standing committee on general government was created as a result of the 1999 changes to the standing orders. As per standing order 109(b), the standing committee on the Legislative Assembly assigned the following ministries and offices to each committee respectively:
Ministry of Agriculture and Food;
Ministry of Consumer and Business Services;
Ministry of Energy;
Ministry of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation;
Ministry of the Environment;
Ministry of Finance;
Ministry of Intergovernmental Affairs;
Ministry of Labour;
Management Board of Cabinet;
Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing;
Ministry of Natural Resources;
Ministry of Northern Development and Mines;
Ministry of Tourism and Recreation;
Ministry of Transportation;
Office of the Premier;
Cabinet Office.
I'd like to point out that the mover, or the people that introduced the bill, have the option, at times, to ask that the bill be referred to another standing committee.
APPOINTMENT OF SUBCOMMITTEE
The Chair: The next item I have is that I need a motion to appoint a subcommittee on committee business. Usually there's a chair, a vice-chair and a member.
Mrs Van Bommel: I move that a subcommittee on committee business be appointed to meet from time to time at the call of the Chair, or at the request of any member thereof, to consider and report to the committee on the business of the committee;
That the subcommittee be composed of the following members: the Chair as chair; Mr Leal; and Mr Ouellette, and that the presence of all members of the subcommittee is necessary to constitute a meeting.
Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): May I speak to the motion?
The Chair: Definitely. Oh, can I get a mover first?
Mrs Van Bommel: I moved that.
Ms Churley: I note, without surprise, of course, that my name was left off the list of those appointed to the subcommittee. As has been explained to me, it's because I'm considered an independent and therefore not eligible to sit on the subcommittee. I submit to people that it's in everybody's interest around this table and on this committee to make sure that all three parties are represented on the subcommittee. I don't know if the new members are aware of what the committee does, but the subcommittee is set up to make sure that we all try to reach a consensus around the committee business; if there are public hearings, to talk about how many days, the dates of travel, all those kinds of things. We try to work in co-cooperation on that level in a non-partisan way for the benefit of all committee members and the public.
Of course, what will happen if I'm not part of that subcommittee is that I will have no say in any of those things. I understand also, that as a so-called independent -- even though the Speaker's recognized us as New Democrats -- I will not have, without unanimous consent, the ability to be involved in those invited for any public hearings. So I would like to move that -- I don't know if I have to wait or procedurally how to --
Clerk of the Committee: You have to wait until --
Ms Churley: OK, so let me tell you what I'm going to do for the purposes of this committee. I assume that it has to be done by unanimous consent, that this committee by unanimous consent determine that I, as the New Democrat on the committee, be appointed to the subcommittee for the purposes of making sure that the committee is properly run. I'll be making that sort of motion. I hope that everybody will support it. I think it's in all our interests to have me represented on that subcommittee.
The Chair: I remember in the previous year we had an independent member who was allowed to sit according to standing order 111. We made provisions for an independent member on this standing committee. The independent member could be invited to be part of the public hearings that were taking place. I haven't seen before an independent member being part of the subcommittee, though.
Ms Churley: If I may, I believe by unanimous consent we can --
Clerk of the Committee: I'll just clarify. What we could do by unanimous consent, if it's the committee's wish, is to invite you to attend all subcommittee meetings, but you still couldn't be officially appointed to the subcommittee meeting because that would be against the standing orders, which are the rules of proceeding.
Ms Churley: How would you suggest that we do this? As I said, let me guarantee everybody that it is in the interests of each member here that I be involved in every single darn decision around this committee.
Clerk of the Committee: I think we should finish with the subcommittee motion, the appointment of the subcommittee on committee business, and then you can ask for unanimous consent to allow you to be invited to all subcommittee meetings.
Ms Churley: Invited and a full participant in the subcommittee meetings.
Clerk of the Committee: That would go against the standing orders, unfortunately.
Ms Churley: Well, OK. So be it. Good luck, Mr Chair.
The Chair: Any further discussion on this motion for the establishment of the subcommittee?
If none, in favour?
Ms Churley: Could I have a recorded vote, please?
The Chair: It's too late. We have proceeded. The recorded vote has to be requested before the vote is put.
Opposed, if any? One abstention? No? Did you vote in favour?
Mr John Yakabuski (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke): I didn't get it up, but abstention is fine.
The Chair: One abstention. Motion carried, yes.
My next item would be that we have to decide when the subcommittee will be meeting, if you wish, before Christmas. We will probably have one bill to discuss, David Levac's bill. It was referred to the general government committee last week. Do you wish to meet before Christmas?
Mr Ouellette: Mr Chair, I would ask that if the subcommittee wanted to sit and discuss it, we could probably discuss it after. That would be my recommendation.
The Chair: So you recommend that we meet immediately after this meeting?
Mr Ouellette: Yes, just to discuss how we're going to proceed.
The Chair: And we will report to the members after? Is that the wish of everyone, that the subcommittee meet immediately? Agreed? Agreed.
Any further discussion?
Mr Ouellette: Yes, Mr Chair, I would recommend, with your indulgence, seeing that we've had a recent election and we have a number of new members sitting on the committee who I don't think have had the opportunity to sit in our process before, to my knowledge, that possibly the clerk or their office be able to provide an overview or review for those new members on the committee on how this process works so that they understand where and how things fit together. That would be my recommendation, Mr Chair.
The Chair: I fully support this recommendation. Is it possible, Tonia, that we could meet at one point? When would it be?
Clerk of the Committee: Yes. Do you mean now or another --
Mr Ouellette: That would be for those members who haven't had the opportunity to sit on committee. They could be able to determine with yourselves a time that would be appropriate.
Clerk of the Committee: I should just let everybody know that I did send out the resource binder. I hope everybody got that. Yes, please feel free to contact me if you wish to discuss one on one exactly how the committee works and the process.
The Chair: Would it not be better to have a half-hour session with you, Tonia, and explain everything to the whole group? There could be some questions arising at that meeting that would clarify some doubt or some questions that people have.
Clerk of the Committee: Sure. In the full committee or off the record?
The Chair: Off the record.
Clerk of the Committee: Sure.
The Chair: When can we do that?
Clerk of the Committee: We could pick another day. We sit on Mondays and Wednesdays, so we could pick a day that we know we're not actually having a committee meeting, but we can meet instead.
The Chair: Could we do it next Monday?
Mr Ouellette: As far as I was concerned, it would be incumbent on the members who haven't had the opportunity.
Clerk of the Committee: It would be at the time when you'd normally have this committee meeting.
The Chair: Around 4 or 4:15.
Mr Yakabuski: I'm probably not going to be here next Monday. If it's partly for my benefit, I'm probably not going to be here. My 19 reeves at county council are having their swearing-in, and I think I'm going to be going to that.
The Chair: We'll touch base at the subcommittee, and then we'll get back to you people.
Mr Yakabuski: But I'll start by reading the book over real good.
Mr Rinaldi: Mr Chair, if I could add, I only read it once, but a lot of the information I think the member suggested you have to have orientation for is in this book. I wonder whether instead of scheduling a separate meeting, maybe at our next regular meeting we could spend five or 10 minutes just to ask questions. I read this, and it's fairly detailed, I believe. I'm not an expert. If there is a test, I fail.
The Chair: It's been recommended that probably at the next regular meeting we have a closed session immediately after just to review.
Clerk of the Committee: Or before.
The Chair: It might be a little tough before, because if they are scheduled at 4 o'clock and people are coming in -- we would have a closed session immediately after the meeting. All agreed?
Any other discussion?
Mr Rinaldi: We haven't the meeting date, am I right? The subcommittee will do it? OK.
The Chair: Any more comments or questions? None? Can we get a mover to adjourn the meeting?
Mr Parsons: My light went on, so I'm obviously moving adjournment.
The Chair: Seconded by?
Clerk of the Committee: We don't need it.
The Chair: Thank you very much, and the subcommittee will meet immediately.
The committee adjourned at 1621.
CONTENTS
Monday 8 December 2003
Election of Chair G-1
Election of Vice-Chair G-1
Appointment of subcommittee G-1
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GENERAL GOVERNMENT
Chair / Président
Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell L)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président
Mr Vic Dhillon (Brampton West-Mississauga / Brampton-Ouest-Mississauga L)
Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth ND)
Mr Vic Dhillon (Brampton West-Mississauga / Brampton-Ouest-Mississauga L)
Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell L)
Mr Jeff Leal (Peterborough PC)
Mr Jerry J. Ouellette (Oshawa PC)
Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings L)
Mr Lou Rinaldi (Northumberland PC)
Mrs Maria Van Bommel (Lambton-Kent-Middlesex L)
Ms Kathleen O. Wynne (Don Valley West / -Ouest L)
Mr John Yakabuski (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke PC)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants
Mr Bill Mauro (Thunder Bay-Atikokan L)
Clerk / Greffière
Ms Tonia Grannum
Staff /Personnel
Ms Lorraine Luski, research officer, Research and Information Services