MINISTRY OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, TRADE AND TOURISM
CONTENTS
Wednesday 6 November 1996
Ministry of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism
Hon William Saunderson
Mr Brian Wood
STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES
Chair / Président: Curling, Alvin (Scarborough North / -Nord L)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Cordiano, Joseph (Lawrence L)
Mr TobyBarrett (Norfolk PC)
Mr GillesBisson (Cochrane South / -Sud ND)
*Mr JimBrown (Scarborough West / -Ouest PC)
Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin L)
Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall L)
Mr TonyClement (Brampton South / -Sud PC)
Mr JosephCordiano (Lawrence L)
*Mr AlvinCurling (Scarborough North / -Nord L)
Mr MorleyKells (Etobicoke-Lakeshore PC)
Mr PeterKormos (Welland-Thorold ND)
*Mr E.J. DouglasRollins (Quinte PC)
Mrs LillianRoss (Hamilton West / -Ouest PC)
Mr FrankSheehan (Lincoln PC)
*Mr WayneWettlaufer (Kitchener PC)
*In attendance /présents
Substitutions present /Membres remplaçants présents:
Mr MonteKwinter (Wilson Heights L) for Mr Cordiano
Mr TonyMartin (Sault Ste Marie ND) for Mr Kormos
Mrs JuliaMunro (Durham-York PC) for Mr Barrett
Mr RichardPatten (Ottawa Centre L) for Mr Cleary
Mr JosephSpina (Brampton North / -Nord PC) for Mr Clement
Mr BillVankoughnet (Frontenac-Addington PC) for Mrs Ross
Clerk / Greffier: Mr Franco Carrozza
Staff / Personnel: Mr Steve Poelking, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1634 in committee room 2.
MINISTRY OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, TRADE AND TOURISM
The Chair (Mr Alvin Curling): We resume the estimates for Economic Development, Trade and Tourism, vote 901. When we left off the last time we were going to leave it where the Liberals would have the floor. The remaining time is six hours and 34 minutes. My understanding too is that there is some consensus that the government side will give its time if there are any further questions. If everything has been exhausted, we can then move to the resumption of the report and call the vote. But at this time we have Mr Kwinter who will start.
Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): We're certainly not going to agree to any change in the time that's required to deal with these issues. We feel very strongly that the decisions being made by this government --
The Chair: So you say no to that.
Mr Martin: Yes.
The Chair: We shall proceed. Mr Kwinter, you have 15 minutes for questions or comments to the minister or staff.
Mr Monte Kwinter (Wilson Heights): Mr Chairman, just so I understand, when we finish today we will still have close to five hours.
The Chair: Yes, just about five hours.
Mr Kwinter: I didn't quite understand what you were saying. What is the time that this committee has to report back?
The Chair: The committee has six hours and 34 minutes more for any questions or comments.
Mr Kwinter: I know that, but it seems to me that there was an understanding that immediately after constituency week this committee would be reporting back. Is that correct?
The Chair: Yes.
Mr Kwinter: Which means that, notwithstanding whatever agreement, this is likely to be the last day.
The Chair: Yes, if we recess after today and we have constituency week next week, the committee will resume on the 19th and 20th.
Mr Kwinter: For two days?
The Chair: We continue on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
Clerk of the Committee (Mr Franco Carrozza): To clarify your question, Mr Kwinter, the committee has to report back, in accordance with the standing orders, on the third Thursday in November, which is November 21.
Mr Kwinter: So we have to report back.
Clerk of the Committee: Yes. If we do not finish, it's automatic that all of the estimates will be deemed to be reported back to the Legislature.
Mr Kwinter: Because I'm subbing on this committee and I'm not really familiar with the schedule of those that were supposed to appear at estimates, what I really want to know, and maybe it would help us make a determination, is, what other ministries are supposed to follow us?
The Chair: The ministry that's following this is the Ministry of Intergovernmental Affairs. They will follow immediately after the Ministry of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism. As the clerk has said, because on the third Thursday we must report to the House, I suppose we will deem all other ministries that follow --
Mr Kwinter: What I'm trying to find out is, by our continuing on, whose opportunity are we eliminating to appear before this committee? Intergovernmental Affairs is one. What is supposed to come after that?
The Chair: The one that's following is Intergovernmental Affairs. But by the time Intergovernmental Affairs appears, we will have exhausted the time and will have reached the third Thursday in November, which is the 21st, because on the 19th and 20th Intergovernmental Affairs will be here.
Mr Kwinter: Was there another ministry scheduled after Intergovernmental Affairs?
The Chair: Yes, there was.
Mr Kwinter: Which ministry was that?
The Chair: I don't know at the moment, but it wouldn't matter either.
Mr Kwinter: It would matter if it was deemed that it was more important for someone to address those particular concerns and would waive Intergovernmental Affairs or deem it to be tabled and move on to the next ones. I just don't know which ones they are.
The Chair: Only this committee could waive it.
Mr Kwinter: That's what I'm saying.
The Chair: It would have to waive this one now and then waive Intergovernmental Affairs and then take the next one.
Mr Kwinter: I'm just curious to know what that one is.
The Chair: We have Intergovernmental Affairs; Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs; Transportation; Northern Development and Mines; Natural Resources; the Office of Francophone Affairs. All of those are coming down.
Mr Kwinter: I just needed that for information, because as far as today is concerned, it doesn't really make any difference because the third party has said that it's going to continue, so we're going to continue today anyway. As a result, I will be happy to participate. I was just interested.
The Chair: Yes. We cannot waive any unless we have unanimous consent.
Mr Kwinter: I understand.
The Chair: Mr Martin is saying now, even with your well-put presentation, that he wants to proceed with this one, so it doesn't really matter.
Mr Kwinter: That's fine.
The Chair: Do I understand you, Mr Martin?
Mr Martin: Yes.
The Chair: Just to note, I presume that this is a 30-minute bell ringing now and that the House is being called for a vote in 30 minutes.
Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener): The committee is supposed to rise.
The Chair: Yes. Considering the fact that there is a vote being called, the committee has got to rise now and address itself to the House. That's my understanding. We stand recessed.
The committee recessed from 1641 to 1721.
The Chair: I see a quorum.
Mr Kwinter: This is a quorum?
The Chair: I see one. I don't see any objection.
Mr Kwinter: Am I to assume that I have 15 minutes?
The Chair: Yes, that's right.
Mr Kwinter: I have a couple of questions that are really a carryover from last year. The reason I ask is I still have an interest in these particular areas. There were some undertakings made last year that were never followed through on. I'm not saying that as a criticism; I'm just saying that, because of that, I don't have the information I was looking for. I was talking about what was happening in the so-called Four Motors of Europe. We talked about Baden-Württemberg, Rhône-Alpes, Catalonia and Lombardia. When I look through the estimates this year, I notice they have been shrunk somewhat. There's a new addition in Singapore, but certainly Catalonia and Lombardia are gone.
When I discussed this at my last appearance at the estimates committee, I was told by Ms Wolfson, at that time the deputy, "As a matter of fact, Minister, the office person responsible for the Four Motors is not here, but we'd be delighted to provide you with a status report on that after these hearings." I went on to say I'd very much like to hear about that, but as I say, I have not heard a word. I would just like to know what has happened, and not only what happened that created the shrinkage from four to two, and then an increase in Singapore, but on what basis and what is the status of the relationship now.
Hon William Saunderson (Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism): Unfortunately, Dr Chris Riddle is in Singapore at the present time, so, once again, for whatever reason you did not get the information you wanted, we will undertake to do it this time when Dr Riddle gets home. I can only say to you that we certainly value the collaborative research agreements that exist between the ministry and the Rhône-Alpes, Baden-Württemberg and Singapore. There are those two that we're talking about and now Singapore.
We will continue to support joint research projects between Ontario researchers, their industry partners and their counterparts in these jurisdictions. Collaborative research with these partners today is an investment in technologies that will create well-paid jobs tomorrow. We're sure of that.
The projects between Ontario and Rhône-Alpes, of which there were seven, have been completed. There are no active projects going on between the Rhône-Alpes and Ontario at the present time. Representatives of these two jurisdictions met in November 1995, and it was agreed that a third round of competition would be held at a future date, subject to the availability of funds.
There are currently three projects under way between Ontario and Baden-Würrttemburg researchers and they will be completed within the next six months. The representatives of the two jurisdictions will meet in Stuttgart in early 1997 to determine whether a third call for proposals will be issued.
Following a successful review by a joint evaluation panel in March 1996, four projects involving Ontario and Singapore researchers received approval to proceed with the final year of the two-year research agreements. These projects will be completed in early 1997. There was a call for proposals for a second round of competition under the Ontario-Singapore agreement, which was issued in May 1996. Forty-seven proposals were received and were evaluated by technical experts from each jurisdiction -- I might say by videoconferencing -- in August 1996. Six finalists have been selected and a final evaluation will be carried out in November. That's why Dr Riddle is there at the present time.
We have collaborative research agreements with the regions of Rhône-Alpes in France and the state of Baden-Würrttemberg in Germany and Singapore still going on. The funding to support collaborative research projects between Ontario and these three jurisdictions totals approximately $800,000 per year.
I've just been handed some material that says the clerk received the information that was required in July 1996. If so, you've heard my comments on it now but maybe we could get a copy to Mr Kwinter of this material if it wasn't delivered to him.
The Chair: Maybe the staff could inform me. You said this was given in July. Why would it be --
Mr Brian Wood: This is from previous estimates, last year's estimates and the response to it.
Hon Mr Saunderson: A request that was made at the --
The Chair: I see. You're talking about the previous estimates, not this one.
Hon Mr Saunderson: Yes, that's what you're referring to. We'll make sure that Mr Kwinter gets a copy of that.
Mr Kwinter: Thank you for your response, but I still don't hear why -- if you could just explain to me, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just want to find out what happened. Why were Lombardia and Catalonia dropped? I assume that relationship is now terminated as opposed to being in limbo.
Hon Mr Saunderson: I don't think it's terminated, but there's just nothing going on with them at the present time. That's my understanding of it.
There was something called Telepresence, which was an interregional committee involving Ontario, Baden-Würrttemburg, Catalonia, Lombardia and Rhône-Alpes. All of those regions, including ourselves, participated in a research program involving multimedia telecommunications, and that was called Telepresence. That's all I can report on it at the present time. We will update you on that, though, and we will do so.
Mr Kwinter: If I can get back to the information I saw in the estimates that you now have entered into a relationship of some sort with Singapore, and at the same time, in the estimates you state -- and I'd like to quote page 47 when you talk about major program changes and about the termination of the Asia Pacific Foundation. You say, "This grant supported the Asia Pacific Foundation, which promotes increased awareness in Canada of the Asia Pacific business and cultural environments as well as increased awareness of Canada in the Asia Pacific."
It seems to me there's a contradiction. On the one hand, you've entered into some sort of relationship, and I'd like to know what that relationship is, with Singapore; on the other hand, you've just terminated a program that would seem to augment or reinforce what you would do in this relationship with Singapore.
Hon Mr Saunderson: As far as Singapore is concerned, it's a science involvement. We're trying to link up companies in Ontario with companies in Singapore. I think when Dr Riddle comes back, we will ask him to give you a report on what was accomplished on this trip he's now on.
Mr Kwinter: I want to discuss a couple of other areas in which these programs have been terminated. One of them is the consortia assistance and consortia development fund. These programs encourage Ontario companies to form consortia to bid on large international turnkey capital projects, assistance-covered costs for consortia formation and for the development of initial project bids.
I remember, and I'd be interested to know, that seemed to be the major focus of the Ontario International Trade Corp and it was absolutely critical to get some of our companies to participate in major infrastructure projects around the world. It seemed to me with a great deal of ballyhoo and promotion, the Honourable William Davis, a previous Premier of Ontario, was announced as the successor to a previous Premier, and I was just curious to know why would you terminate that particular program, and if it has been terminated, what Mr Davis does.
Hon Mr Saunderson: The OITC is a very useful corporation as far as we are concerned. It's our lead trade promotion agency and its mandate is to assist Ontario companies to increase exports of goods and services to foreign markets. It provides international marketing and consulting services, market intelligence, export education, commercial advocacy for Ontario firms that are bidding on international contracts and/or seeking financing.
As far as Mr Davis's committee is concerned, it meets on a regular basis and there are people there with a wealth of knowledge who are able to give that knowledge at these meetings. The budget of OITC is about $4.5 million, and of course it is a part of the ministry staff. These are the people who travel for us, as you know; you were the minister of our ministry at one stage, or part of it. These people are travelling and representing Ontario business from time to time.
As a matter of fact, tomorrow I am going to Japan and will spend time not only in the Tokyo region but also in the Osaka region. Oh, there goes the bell. I can tell you that this has been all orchestrated by our people who cover Japan for us and we will be visiting many Japanese companies which are operating in Ontario and as well visiting new Japanese companies which are not operating in Ontario. The reason we're going is to tell them of the changes that have occurred in this province in the last 16 months.
As I talked yesterday and in the last few hours, I guess, about marketing Ontario, we are going to be announcing how we are going to market Ontario in the next few weeks. I can tell you that is going to be a very important part of our thrust as far as attracting business to Ontario is concerned.
The Chair: Thank you, Minister. At this time I notice that the bells are ringing again. I'll make the decision because it's a 30-minute bell that we stand adjourned until Tuesday, November 19, immediately after orders of the day.
The committee adjourned at 1735.