The committee met at 0904 in committee room 2.

Selection of estimates

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Good morning, everyone. The Standing Committee on Social Policy will now come to order. On our agenda this morning is the selection of estimates for consideration.

On April 4, 2024, the Lieutenant Governor transmitted to the Legislative Assembly the estimates of certain sums required for the services of the province for the year ending March 31, 2025. Pursuant to standing order 62(b), these estimates, upon tabling, are “deemed to be referred to the standing committees to which the respective ministries and offices were assigned” pursuant to standing order 113(b).

All committee members should have received an electronic copy of the 2024-25 estimates and the corresponding ministry and office briefing books from the Clerk. The estimates for the following ministries and offices have been referred to the Standing Committee on Social Policy for selection and consideration: the Ministry of Children, Community and Social Services; the Ministry of Colleges and Universities; the Ministry of Education; the Ministry of Health; the Ministry of Long-Term Care; and the Ministry for Seniors and Accessibility.

The objective of today’s meeting is to select the estimates of certain ministries or offices for review by the committee. Standing order 63 sets out the process by which the committee makes its selections. Each of the recognized parties on the committee shall select the estimates of up to one ministry or office in each turn. The official opposition selects first, followed by the government. If members of one party decline to make a selection, the selection then passes to the next party in the rotation. The process concludes when either there are no ministries or offices available to select or if both recognized parties decline to make any, or any further, selections.

Pursuant to standing order 63(c), these selections are to be reviewed in the order that they are chosen. However, this order may be altered by unanimous agreement of the subcommittee on committee business or by an order of the House. Pursuant to standing order 63(d), the time for consideration of estimates of each ministry or office shall be determined by the respective committee.

The estimates for those ministries or offices not selected for consideration will be deemed to have been passed by the committee. As your Chair, I will report those unselected estimates back to the House and they will be deemed to be adopted and concurred in by the House.

If supplementary estimates are tabled for any of the selected ministries or offices, those supplementary estimates would be considered by the committee during the same time which the committee decides to allocate for consideration of the main estimates for those corresponding ministries or offices.

In accordance with standing order 66(a), the committee must present a report to the House with respect to the estimates it selected and considered by the third Thursday of November of this year. If the committee fails to report by the third Thursday in November, the estimates and supplementary estimates before the committee will be deemed to have been passed by the committee and deemed to be reported to and received by the House.

When making your selections, I’d like to ask that members please look at the list of ministries and offices in the estimates book or on the screen in front of you and give the correct names of the ministries or offices when you select them for consideration.

Do members have any questions or comments before we begin? MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: Would you know which committee the Ministry of Intergovernmental Affairs is assigned to? I thought it was us.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): It’s assigned to us, but my understanding is, because they haven’t presented estimates, they would not be considered in the selections today.

M^me France Gélinas: You answered my question, very good.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Any other questions, comments? Okay, so we’ll begin with the selection process. I’ll start with the official opposition for their first selection. MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: I’m sure it will be a shock to everybody in this room that my first choice is going to be the Ministry of Health.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): I’d be surprised if it wasn’t, MPP Gélinas.

The next selection is to the government, for their first selection. MPP Pierre.

Ms. Natalie Pierre: The government selects Ministry of Education.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Okay.

We’ll continue with the official opposition.

M^me France Gélinas: Ministry of Children, Community and Social Services.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Thank you.

The government.

Ms. Natalie Pierre: The government selects Ministry of Long-Term Care.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Okay.

The official opposition. MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: Ministry of Colleges and Universities.

Ms. Natalie Pierre: No further selections, Chair.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): No further selections for the government.

MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: Ministry for Seniors and Accessibility.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Nothing further? Okay. Thank you to both the government members and the opposition members for your selections.

Is there any other business matter that members would like to bring up? MPP Clancy.

Ms. Aislinn Clancy: I didn’t receive any documents in preparation for this meeting. I just checked my email a couple of ways and wonder if I could receive those documents, please.

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Lesley Flores): It should have been sent out on April 4.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Yes, I received mine on April 4. So, we’ll go back and check, MPP Clancy, and ensure that you have access to all the estimates files. There was a link to a book online.

Interjection.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): MPP Clancy, the Clerk will resend the link to you and your staff.

Any other business for members? Yes, MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: When do we pick the days and the hours that we’re going to spend on this?

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): I believe we have to have a subcommittee meeting.

Interjection.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): A motion. We’ll have a motion. Sorry. I think your question is going to get answered, MPP Gélinas.

MPP Pierre.

Ms. Natalie Pierre: We’ll move a scheduling motion at a later date.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): At a later date, okay.

Yes, MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: I would like to move a motion.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Sure.

M^me France Gélinas: I would like to move that the time allocated to the consideration of the estimates of the ministries selected by the committee be as such:

—Ministry of Health, seven hours;

—Ministry of Education, seven hours;

—Ministry of Children, Community and Social Services, seven hours;

—Ministry of Long-Term Care, three hours;

—Ministry of Colleges and Universities, three hours;

—Ministry for Seniors and Accessibility, three hours.

I also move that the committee meet for the purpose of considering the estimates of the selected ministries at the following times:

—Tuesday, May 28, from 9 until 10:15 and 3 until 6;

—Monday, June 3, from 9 until 10:15 and 1 until 6;

—Tuesday, June 4, from 9 until 10:15 and 3 until 6;

—Monday, June 10, from 9 until 10:15 and 1 until 6;

—Tuesday, June 11, from 9 until 10:15 and 3 until 6;

—Monday, September 9, from 9 until 10:15 and 1 until 6; and

—Tuesday, September 10, from 9 until 10:15 and 3 until 6.

I have done the math. That would allow us to go through all of the estimates that have been selected.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Thank you. I’ll call a brief recess while the Clerk makes a copy of that motion.

How much time do we need?

Interjection.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Five minutes? Okay.

The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Lesley Flores): I might put it on the screen.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Okay, sounds good. Either on the screen or in hand.

We’ll recess for five minutes.

The committee recessed from 0912 to 0917.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): We’ll reconvene the meeting. The Clerk has put up on the screen the motion from the official opposition. Is there discussion on the motion? MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: You will see that for—we’ll start with health. Health is an $82-billion to $84-billion estimate. Seven hours means that we have to deal with $11.7 billion an hour. I think allocating seven hours to the Ministry of Health, and the same with the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Children, Community and Social Services—given the breadth of services offered by those ministries as well as the amount of taxpayers’ money going to those different ministries, I think a minimum of seven hours. As I said, for health alone, it’s $11.7 billion an hour that we will be reviewing. It’s a lot of work in a very condensed period of time.

For colleges and universities, long-term care and seniors and accessibility: only three hours. Those ministries are very important and have important services. Just the amount of money allocated through those ministries is a little bit lower, so I figured it would be okay to spend a little bit less time. I would be more than happy to bump those up if you feel so inclined. This is a big job. The people of Ontario expect us to pay attention to their money that is being spent through those different allocations. I thought that would be a good balance between taking those responsibilities seriously and giving taxpayers value for their money.

The time selected is basically the time this committee is scheduled to sit. I tried to keep it on regular days, like end at six, just so that we have a bit of a work-life balance rather than keeping it late into the night.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Further discussion? MPP Clancy.

Ms. Aislinn Clancy: I just appreciate having this ahead of time. It’s been difficult from my end having so many significant changes. I work so hard to get different meetings set up, so to have a bit of stability around my schedule—it’s intense, I understand, but I appreciate us planning ahead so that we can all kind of be professional with the other partners that we work with. It really is disruptive to not know what we’re doing from week to week. So I appreciate having this planning ahead and being professional about how we schedule our time.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Further discussion? Are members ready to vote? All those in favor, can you raise your hands?

M^me France Gélinas: Recorded vote.

Ayes

Bell, Clancy, Gélinas.

Nays

Grewal, Pang, Pierre, David Smith, Laura Smith.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): The motion is lost.

Is there any other business? Any other motions? Any other comments? Yes, MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: The comments that were just made by MPP Clancy: When can we expect to have a schedule to do that work? This is important work. Other bills may be sent to our committee that we have to be available for the work of the House to move forward. The deadline of the third Thursday in November, you would be surprised how fast this comes. So when can we expect a meeting to deal with the scheduling?

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): MPP Pierre.

Ms. Natalie Pierre: We’ll move a scheduling motion at a later date.

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): MPP Gélinas.

M^me France Gélinas: This is very disrespectful. To simply say “at a later date”—this is important work. This is work that has to be done. You have a schedule in front of you that would allow us to do that work, that would allow us to make sure that we’re available to do the work that the House sends to this committee.

At a later date? I’m a politician. A later date is two to three years? A decade? That means very little. This work needs to be done. To delay important work is not okay. It’s not okay with the taxpayers to not do the work, to not shine a light on the estimates. This is a big part of what we were elected to do and has to be done, and to simply say “at a later date”—will be it before this session ends? Will we have started?

The Chair (Mr. Steve Clark): Any other comments? Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes our business for today. The committee will stand adjourned until 9 a.m. on Tuesday, May 7, 2024, when we will begin public hearings of Bill 188.

The committee adjourned at 0923.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL POLICY

Chair / Président

Mr. Steve Clark (Leeds–Grenville–Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes / Leeds–Grenville–Thousand Islands et Rideau Lakes PC)

Vice-Chair / Vice-Présidente

M^me France Gélinas (Nickel Belt ND)

MPP Jill Andrew (Toronto–St. Paul’s ND)

Ms. Aislinn Clancy (Kitchener Centre G)

Mr. Steve Clark (Leeds–Grenville–Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes / Leeds–Grenville–Thousand Islands et Rideau Lakes PC)

M^me France Gélinas (Nickel Belt ND)

Mr. Hardeep Singh Grewal (Brampton East / Brampton-Est PC)

Ms. Natalia Kusendova-Bashta (Mississauga Centre / Mississauga-Centre PC)

Mr. Billy Pang (Markham–Unionville PC)

Ms. Natalie Pierre (Burlington PC)

Mr. Nolan Quinn (Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry PC)

Ms. Laura Smith (Thornhill PC)

Substitutions / Membres remplaçants

Ms. Jessica Bell (University–Rosedale ND)

Mr. David Smith (Scarborough Centre / Scarborough-Centre PC)

Clerk / Greffière

Ms. Lesley Flores

Staff / Personnel

Ms. Sandra Lopes, research officer,
Research Services