CONTENTS
Tuesday 14 November 1995
Election of Chair
Election of Vice-Chair
Appointment of subcommittee
Orientation
STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
*Chair / Président: Patten, Richard (Ottawa Centre / -Centre L)
*Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: Gerretsen, John
(Kingston and The Islands / Kingston et Les Îles L)
*Agostino, Dominic (Hamilton East / -Est L)
*Ecker, Janet (Durham West / -Ouest PC)
*Gravelle, Michael (Port Arthur L)
*Johns, Helen (Huron PC)
*Jordan, Leo (Lanark-Renfrew PC)
*Laughren, Floyd (Nickel Belt ND)
*Munro, Julia (Durham-York PC)
*Newman, Dan (Scarborough Centre / -Centre PC)
*Pettit, Trevor (Hamilton Mountain PC)
Preston, Peter L. (Brant-Haldimand PC)
*Smith, Bruce (Middlesex PC)
*Wildman, Bud (Algoma ND)
*In attendance / présents
Clerk / Greffière: Mellor, Lynn
Staff / Personnel:
Gardner, Dr Bob, assistant director, Legislative Research Service
Glenn, Ted, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1532 in room 151.
ELECTION OF CHAIR
Clerk of the Committee (Ms Lynn Mellor): Honourable members, it's my duty to call upon you to elect a Chair. I'm open to nominations.
Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and The Islands): I would like to nominate Richard Patten as Chair of the committee.
Clerk of the Committee: Are there any further nominations? Then, Mr Patten, I declare the nominations closed and you as Chair.
The Chair (Mr Richard Patten): Thank you very much, Madam Clerk. Ladies and gentlemen, that was a tough election.
Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): It was tense.
The Chair: It was almost as tough as the last election.
ELECTION OF VICE-CHAIR
The Chair: We have a short order of business. The next order of business is the election of the Vice-Chair, so I would call for a motion for the election of Vice-Chair.
Mr Gravelle: I would like to nominate John Gerretsen as Vice-Chair.
The Chair: Mr John Gerretsen as Vice-Chair is proposed. Are there any other nominations? There being no other nominations, I declare Mr John Gerretsen as Vice-Chair of the committee. Congratulations, John.
Mr Gerretsen: Thank you.
APPOINTMENT OF SUBCOMMITTEE
The Chair: Now I call for a motion which is for the appointment of the subcommittee, which performs the business of the committee itself. Would anyone like to make that motion?
Mrs Julia Munro (Durham-York): I move that a subcommittee on committee business be appointed to meet from time to time at the call of the Chair or at the request of any member thereof to consider and report to the committee on the business of the committee; that substitution be permitted on the subcommittee; that the presence of all members of the subcommittee is necessary to constitute a quorum; that the subcommittee be composed of the following members: Mr Patten as Chair, Mrs Ecker, Mr Gravelle and Mr Wildman; and that any subcommittee member may designate a substitute member on the subcommittee who is of the same recognized party and a member of the committee.
The Chair: Could I have a show of hands in support of the motion? In favour? Great, unanimously agreed. Thank you.
Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): We're going to get along really well in here.
ORIENTATION
The Chair: We have a couple of functions this afternoon that we can take advantage of. We have no government business, I gather, but we do have an opportunity to do a brief orientation, an opportunity for new members especially perhaps -- when I say "new members," I mean new to the Legislature -- and more experienced members; we'd like to share their wisdom and they may have questions themselves.
But I thought that before we did that, given that we will have to work well together and I would expect we will have some interesting and exciting times ahead of us, we get to know each other a little bit more. So other than the official background that is stated on each one of us, I thought we might take a brief one minute per member to go around and share with the other members of the committee a little bit of our background and what we might want to comment on in being a new member of the social development committee. Perhaps I could start with my colleague Mr Gravelle.
Mr Gravelle: I'm certainly very pleased to be a member of the social development committee. In terms of my background, I've certainly got some involvement in politics in my past. I began very much as a young man, actually, working for a federal member of Parliament who also was a minister in Thunder Bay. At that time I learned a number of things from him that I think are most important in terms of being in the position all of us are in as elected members of the Legislature, which is that I think we certainly are here to represent all the people. I feel very, very strongly that there are a number of people in our society who need to be considered when we're making decisions that affect all the people in our province. I have felt strongly since that time that this is something that should never be forgotten. Probably I believe it more now than ever, having now been elected to the Legislature myself.
My background also includes some work in broadcasting with the Canadian Broadcasting Corp and some work with the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines. I hope I can put to use some of the experience I've had to be an effective member of this committee. I look forward to working with all of you and getting to know you all much better.
Mr Gerretsen: My background is that I'm a lawyer, but don't hold that against me. I was involved in our local council in the city of Kingston for 16 years, having served the last eight years as mayor. In 1988 I decided to get out of politics and decided never to get back into it, but obviously I changed my mind somewhere along the line.
Certainly social issues have always interested me, probably more so than any other issues at the municipal level. I look forward to trying to make some sort of contribution at the provincial level.
Mr Agostino: I'm pleased to be part of this committee. I think it's very exciting. I think the responsibilities we're going to have are going to be quite important to this Legislature and to the people of Ontario.
For my background, my professional background is in social work. I spent some time working for the Ontario March of Dimes and the Elizabeth Fry Society. In Hamilton I have served about 15 years now in local government, seven as a school trustee and eight as a city alderman and regional councillor and the last five as chairman of the health and social services committee for Hamilton-Wentworth. So I certainly enjoy the field.
I think the area of social policy is going to be extremely important to where we're going in this province in the next few years. I look forward to the work this committee's going to do, and though we may have differences across the floor with our colleagues of the other parties, I think it's always important to work together for the best interests of the people of Ontario and to always leave those differences in the room. We have to remember that we have a bigger responsibility than our party and our responsibilities as members.
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Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt): I can hardly wait to see Dominic deliver on that one. I must say that my background, for those who don't know me, is one of retail management and then teaching at a community college, but most of my life in this place.
Without being condescending, I hope, I always felt that the committee system -- I think I said this at the orientation session here, and I really meant it -- is what allowed me to develop more as an MPP than anything else in this place. I'm a partisan MPP, but I'm a huge fan of the committee system. It can work, even though it can be partisan. I chaired a committee that was very partisan, the resources development committee, and dealt with labour and WCB issues and so on, rent control, but we made it work. It's not easy. And I expect everybody to be partisan. I think that's one reason we're here.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to working on this committee and with my colleague who in his absence we elected as a member of the subcommittee.
The Chair: Thank you. Mr Wildman.
Mrs Janet Ecker (Durham West): He's obviously brought his designate.
Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): My name is Wildman, as you know, and I've never been partisan. I would, frankly, agree with Floyd. For those of you who may not know, I was an educator. I taught at secondary level for eight years and I've served in this place in one role or another for 20 years, and what I found, particularly in the first couple of terms as an MPP, was that my work in committee I found the most rewarding and fulfilling and most helpful in assisting me as an MPP to learn more about how the government worked and how the funds were allocated and spent. I think committees can be very effective when they are aimed at dealing with specifics rather than simply going on fishing expeditions, as some are wont to do.
I look forward to working on the committee, and if I'm a member of the subcommittee, I would say that what I found over the years is that the most effective committees are ones that have effective subcommittees, that where representatives of each party on the committee, along with the Chair, can set down and agree to an agenda that is acceptable to all three parties, if that's possible, then you have an effective committee. I've been on committees where that was possible and I've also been on committees where it wasn't, and the ones where it wasn't didn't work very well, for anyone's benefit, frankly, for the government or the opposition.
Just to explain my colleague here, for those of you who may or may not be interested in whether or not I've reverted to my childhood, I am part of what is called the Canadian Diabetes Association's celebrity diabetes challenge, where we have to carry this bear around with us to represent diabetes for a week and pretend that we are a person with diabetes for a week and we have to follow the diet and the regimen of meals and so on just to learn what it's like to be a person with diabetes.
I must say that in the first three days, I'm finding it terrible -- not the diet; it's fine, but just -- well, what I found is that a person with diabetes obviously schedules his or her activities and work around his or her meals, whereas most of us, I suspect, and certainly I tend to eat whenever I can around my work schedule. That doesn't work out for a person with diabetes. So I'm learning a great deal during the week and getting to like my colleague a great deal as well.
Mr Bruce Smith (Middlesex): It's certainly a privilege and I look forward to the opportunity of being a part and contributing to this committee. I guess by way of background, mine is one of predominantly being involved in land use planning as a planner in community development, so this is a little bit of a new twist for me, but I'm sure a lot of the similar issues will crop up in the business we are involved with.
I look forward to the advice Mr Laughren and Mr Wildman have given us in terms of this being a growth opportunity. As a new MPP to the Legislature, it's my first opportunity in an elected capacity. I'm perhaps more comfortable at this point in time serving in an administrative role or professional capacity, so I look forward to the change in direction and working with everyone in the committee.
Mr Trevor Pettit (Hamilton Mountain): My background is in sales management, specifically architectural woodwork. I was involved in the design and sales of both church and courtroom furniture throughout North America. I have extensive experience in coaching minor sports, both baseball and hockey, and I've been involved with various local fund-raising groups. As the father of two young daughters, I have a tremendous interest, naturally, in social development, so I very much look forward to working with each and every one of you on this committee, and in particular with the veterans. I think there'll be a lot to learn from the veterans for all of us rookies.
Mr Dan Newman (Scarborough Centre): I'm Dan Newman, the MPP for Scarborough Centre and parliamentary assistant for native affairs. Prior to election on June 8, I worked at the Toronto Sun Publishing Corp for 10 years, including two years with the Financial Post, helping that get started as a daily newspaper. I look forward to working with all the members of this committee for a better Ontario because, after all, we all have the same boss, the Ontario taxpayer.
Mrs Munro: I'm Julia Munro and I'm the MPP for Durham-York. My background is as a secondary school teacher and I've worked in York region since 1971 as a secondary school teacher. My particular background is as a history teacher. As a parent, as a teacher, I really welcome the opportunity to be on this committee because I think it certainly addresses the kinds of issues I personally see as extremely important for the people of Ontario. As the others who are rookies to this have suggested, I look forward to the opportunities that those of you who have more experience will be able to share with us.
Mr Leo Jordan (Lanark-Renfrew): My background is with Ontario Hydro. I spent 18 years in the operating department and 18 years in the consumer service and property department. During that time I also served on the municipal council and other associations within our community such as the Victorian Order of Nurses and so on. Then of course, as you served on municipal council, you progressed to reeve.
As my colleagues across the way have pointed out, the real democracy I think takes place in these rooms, because my experience was at the county level and it's managed by the committee system. It gives every member an opportunity to have input in the areas and fields they have expertise in and they, as you have all said, tend to learn very much from the others you work with. You get to know people as people and many friends are made through committees. There's a certain amount of travelling to be done and there's a lot of communication, whereas if you only had the Legislature and passing bills and so on, the Legislature would be a pretty cold type of democracy, in my opinion.
I'm looking forward to this committee, and I see a lot of experience on the other side here also. We have two former cabinet ministers, we have the mayor of Kingston and members of other councils across the province, so I'm really looking forward to serving.
Mrs Helen Johns (Huron): My name is Helen Johns and I'm the MPP for Huron. I'm going to explain a little bit about Huron for a minute. Huron runs up Lake Huron north of London. It's basically an agricultural area and one of the things it grows the most of is female politicians in this Legislature, having four of them from Huron county.
I'm a mother with two young children. They're four and six years old and so this is quite a change for me, and that's part of the social implications of this job.
I have an accounting and business background, having worked as a controller and financial VP for small and medium-sized businesses for 15 years, focusing mainly in the banking and stock brokerage area.
I'm the parliamentary assistant to Health, so you can imagine the learning curve I'm on right now. It's a mind-boggling experience, so I'm looking forward to this committee to be able to look into a lot of the details. I'm learning the forest and need to look at some of the trees, I think. I'm looking forward to this.
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Mrs Ecker: I'm Janet Ecker, the member for Durham West. I'm parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Community and Social Services and a member of the Huron county alumnae.
I'd like to start by congratulating the Chair and the Vice-Chair. I'm looking forward to working with you on whatever it is this committee ends up doing. I'm also very much looking forward to working with some of the other esteemed members, especially Mr Laughren and Mr Wildman, whom I have watched in various capacities over the last several years, and also with, I think, some very able representation on this side of the table, both new and old.
I find it rather unusual to sit here in this place. I'm usually more used to sitting in there somewhere at the other end of the hall. I've sort of hung around this building I guess for almost 20 years in various capacities, both as a bureaucrat, as a political aide to several ministers, party leaders and at least one Premier, and most recently have been involved in the health care area as policy director for the College of Physicians and Surgeons, and before that as a private sector consultant who tended to do a fair bit of work in the health care area, as well as community involvement, the United Way and shelter and housing projects out in my area. So this is certainly an area where I have an interest and that I think I'm going to enjoy very much.
I would also like to echo the comments that many have made around the table about the value of the committee experience, because I think it's an opportunity not only to kind of get into the teeth of issues and do something productive, but also to get to know all of us across the floor where there are human beings beyond the partisan cut-and-thrust we love to indulge in.
The Chair: Maybe I could tell you a little bit about myself. The history of my life has been essentially social development. I spent 21-odd years full-time with the YMCA both at the local level, national level and international level, and with international organizations and overseas on two occasions. So I have a great interest in the strength of communities.
I was elected here in 1987 to 1990, which was a great experience, albeit quite short, but it afforded me the opportunity of learning about government and the way in which government can support the strengthening of communities. I was Minister of Government Services and Minister of Correctional Services and both those ministries helped me to see how you can strengthen the capacity of individual communities at the local level by the way in which you go about doing things. I found that absolutely fascinating.
In terms of this committee, I must admit this is a new experience for me, being in opposition, and so it's almost joining a different culture. I will be learning about that, as many of you will, but I would like to say that while our system is based on party politics, I believe the capacity to address the big picture surely will oversee partisan reflections, at least being able to listen very carefully to each other and to be able to respond and build upon ideas that may be in the very best interests, and sometimes that means going back and convincing your own party that perhaps there needs to be some change based on the discussion and the wisdom that ensued around a table such as this or by virtue of people who would share views that they have. I suppose that's what the challenge will be for all of us.
I would like to suggest that one thing we might want to do is use first names, with your agreement, that there may be occasions in which the formalities of last names are more appropriate, but that generally we would use first names. But in the record perhaps it's better that we have people's full names so that there is no confusion as to who has spoken on one particular issue.
Do I take it that we're in agreement on that?
Mr Gravelle: Sure, Richard.
The Chair: Thanks, Mike. Is that in agreement? Okay.
Mr Jordan: I think it's important that it be recorded with the full name, because if it's going out to ridings and to the public --
Mr Wildman: In some cases, you'd rather they didn't know your name.
The Chair: So last names in terms of recording, and in terms of our verbal discussions, we can address each other in terms of full names. If we're in agreement with that, we can proceed on that basis.
If I may introduce our clerk to you, who is on my right, Lynn Mellor is an experienced and seasoned clerk, and I might add highly respected in the Legislature; also, the assistant director of legislative research on my immediate left, Bob Gardner, and Ted Glenn, who is the research officer who also helps out and will perform services for the committee as a whole or individual members who have questions they would like to pursue in the course of their explorations.
This young gentleman I don't know.
Clerk of the Committee: That's Hansard.
The Chair: Oh, I'm sorry; Hansard. I thought that was behind us. All right.
Mr Agostino: Mr Hansard.
The Chair: Mr Hansard. Perhaps I might call upon our clerk to carry us through a brief orientation. During this time, any questions you may have around procedure or related to procedure or explanations or justifications of why we do things in a certain way would be in order.
Clerk of the Committee: I'd like to give you a brief background on this committee and what it's done in the past and what areas of study this committee will be involved in.
The committee in the past has been involved in items like separate school funding, long-term care, regulated health professions, and has spent many hours on all of those issues. The areas of study are community and social services, education and health. All agencies, boards and commissions that are related to those policy areas are also part of the mandate of the committee.
The committee can have matters referred to it in several different ways. They can have a subject matter referred to it from the House. In that case, usually there's some restriction as to how the House might want the committee to look at the area. A government bill might be referred; a private member's bill might be referred. Those areas are dealt with by the committee with any instructions that the House has given it.
The other areas of study the committee can look at in the policy areas I referred to earlier -- standing order 108. You can study just about anything under standing order 108, but it's done at the wish of the committee, meaning the majority of the committee wants to go ahead with this area of study.
Then there's another area of study, standing order 125, which provides for a 12-hour review of a particular issue. It can be raised by any caucus once each calendar year, so that means there'd be a maximum of three issues studied under that.
As the clerk of the committee, I'll be available to the Chair for procedural direction, as well as any member of the committee. If at any time you're preparing a motion and you need some help doing it or anything that you need procedural advice on, I'm available to you.
The Chair of the committee will be assuming the same role as the Speaker in the House. He will try to apply the standing orders wherever necessary and try to keep the committee rolling along and letting everyone have their say to the point that the standing orders allow it.
The ruling of the Chair is not debatable, but it can be challenged by a majority of the members of the committee. That's covered under standing order 120. It involves a report to the House and a response from the House, when and if that should happen.
Briefly, that's all I have to say at this moment. If you have any questions, either now or later, please feel free.
The Chair: Are there any questions right now?
Mr Agostino: Standing order 125, by the end of December would have to be -- is that the way it works?
Clerk of the Committee: It's a calendar year, so you'd be allowed one this calendar year. It doesn't mean that the study has to be completed at this time; it means that during this calendar year you're allowed a selection, and then into the next calendar year you'd be allowed another selection. But that doesn't mean it has to be completed; the matters do carry over.
Mr Agostino: Standing order 108 is unlimited but that is subject to the majority of the committee?
Clerk of the Committee: That's right.
The Chair: Any other questions? Okay, thank you.
Now I would like to ask Bob Gardner if he would tell us a little bit about the nature of research that's available and the kinds of things that occur.
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Dr Bob Gardner: We provide research service for the committee at all stages of the deliberations the clerk has just outlined.
I have actually a little show and tell here. Last summer, the committee did two reports under standing order 125, one on dialysis treatment in Ontario and one on children at risk. They provide a good example of the kinds of things we do.
In both of those cases, and particularly the children at risk, we provided some background information at the start of the hearings. We actually provided some notes to the subcommittee to help define "children at risk of what?" They narrowed down exactly what they wanted to look at. That was developed into the ad that went out to the public and the various interested parties.
As the hearings progress, we provide an ongoing summary of what the witnesses are telling the committee. In this case, it's a thematic summary of what were the key issues identified, what were the kinds of programs the committee heard from the various social service agencies, health agencies and so on, what kinds of suggestions were these groups making for change, what was being heard from academic experts and professionals in various fields and so on.
When it's a question of legislation before you -- and the one I brought on that Ms Ecker will remember from her previous life -- this was the hearings on the Regulated Health Professions Act. What we end up providing you is a kind of section-by-section summary of who was saying what about that section. These are just acronyms for the various groups, and we provide a list of all the groups. This one was 85 pages long, about usual for this committee. This committee has very extensive hearings and so our summaries sort of parallel the work you have been doing. The separate schools one was of course one of our longest endeavours. That's our end as well as at your end.
At the end of the hearings, you'll be drafting a report, and we actually draft that report under your direction. Again, both the children at risk and the dialysis reports were about 50 or 60 pages long. You decide on your recommendations, we draft them, bring them back, you change them, we redraft them and so on. Also, if issues arise during the course of the hearings -- for example, you may hear from a witness that there's a particularly interesting program in Alberta. Now normally, of course, what you do is you turn to us and ask us about Alberta, and sometimes we don't actually know everything about every program in every province, so we scurry around with colleagues in research or the legislative library and find that out. Typically, that would be either I'll just tell it back to you, if it's relatively simple, or a short memo or what have you.
As the Chair was saying, as the hearings go by, you can ask any number of questions you may want of us and we'll provide the material for you.
Now, of course, as individual MPPs you ask us for confidential research as well. That's a different matter. But you can approach myself or Mr Glenn any time you want and we'll handle individual requests too.
The Chair: Any questions for Mr Gardner?
Mr Agostino: On the request for research and so on, could you give some examples of the sort of research or the kind of information your staff would gather?
Dr Gardner: For this committee, I'll go back to the hearings on dialysis treatment. One of the things that arose there was the question of regional coordination, in effect having enough machines in the hospitals in the centres where the demand is for it. We heard through witnesses that British Columbia and Nova Scotia had been making some program changes and developed different kind of innovative means of basically regional planning. We were asked to provide that information and we got on the phone to the relevant folks in the different provinces and came back with a report. That would be fairly typical.
The other thing that we do is, if there is any press coverage of the committee's hearings as we go along in the Toronto papers or the papers of the cities and towns you visit, then we'll get that for you on an ongoing basis as well.
If you're hearing on legislation, you will have ministry people with you, so you may ask us a question that they will actually have the answer for. You don't need to worry about that at your end. We'll sort out the division of labour with the ministry staff.
But if it's on an issue and there is no ministry staff, you may want to know: "Well, what has been the expenditure on child care for the last 15 years here in Ontario? How is it divided by different types of child care?" We'll find that out, and on that kind of thing it's a question of finding the right official in the ministry and getting back to you.
You may want to know, "Well, what does the research literature say about the effect of early childhood education?" In the separate school funding, there was a great deal of interest about that. You may want to know: "Well, are there different requirements of teachers in the different systems? What are the different liabilities of the pension plans?" It can be very, very specific to the very, very general review of the literature; whatever you need to know, basically.
The Chair: Any other questions or comments? Thank you, Mr Gardner. I wonder if there are any small things which would be helpful to our interpreters or Hansard in terms of identifying who is to speak or when. Should people raise their hands or show their interest in participating in a discussion? What would you advise?
Clerk of the Committee: If there's an ongoing discussion going on, just a raise of a hand, drawing attention to the Chair that you're interested in participating. If it's a case where you have witnesses before the committee, sometimes it's determined that it would be a rotational basis and so much time per caucus; sometimes it's first come, first served, first hand in the air will get the questions. It depends on what has been determined on any issue. But generally speaking, if you get the attention of the Chair, then that's the best route to go.
Mr Gerretsen: I assume that there are no standing order rules as to how the committee functions and operates on an ongoing basis. Is that correct?
Mr Wildman: The House rules.
The Chair: Yes.
Mr Gerretsen: The House rules do apply. Okay.
The Chair: Any other questions at this time? Is there any other business?
Mr Agostino: When's our next meeting?
Mr Wildman: I was just wondering, at this point do we have anything referred to this committee? There isn't anything on our agenda?
The Chair: No, not at this time.
Mr Wildman: Then I guess the question is, pending whatever the House might decide and the House leaders, whether or not individual caucuses want to make use of 125 or whether the committee as a whole would like to look at something that would be of interest to all members of the committee. I don't know whether we should, as a subcommittee, sort of try to canvass our colleagues to determine whether there's something that all of us would like to look at.
The Chair: Okay. I gather those are the three avenues we have.
Clerk of the Committee: If there is at any time an issue that people are interested in reviewing, if you let the Chair and myself know, then we'll go the appropriate route.
Mr Gerretsen: Would this committee, when it meets, normally meet at this time, on Mondays and Tuesdays? Is that the idea?
Clerk of the Committee: Mondays and Tuesdays at 3:30 or, if something happens in the House to delay that, as soon as possible after that time in this room. The Chair: Unless there are hearings that are outside of this place.
Mr Pettit: So are we just waiting, then, and we don't really know when the next one would be as yet?
The Chair: No. We would wait for either some request or referral by government, a request of any member or all of us to consider an issue or a 125 from any of the caucuses.
Mr Pettit: Would we normally be given a week's notice or could it be 48 hours? What's the procedure there?
Clerk of the Committee: Normally the notices go out on Thursday afternoon. If I'm aware there's been a referral to the committee in time to have the notices out on Thursday afternoon, you will have them Thursday afternoon; if not, as soon as I can get them to you, I'll give you as much notice. Sometimes it may be a phone call. That's more likely for the subcommittee members, though.
Mr Pettit: The same thing carries forward when the House is not sitting?
Clerk of the Committee: When the House is not sitting, that's quite different. Then it depends on what issue has been referred to the committee; it depends what the House leaders have determined as a time frame. For example, in the winter recess, whether or not you'd be allotted time to sit in January, February or March, it'd be identified very clearly, and that's determined by the House leaders, and the length of time. It could be two days, it could be two weeks, it could be four weeks, it'll just depend, and then the committee can determine at that point how many days of each week, if there's more than one week, it needs to sit to finish its business.
The Chair: Okay. Any other questions? There being no other business, then I would adjourn this meeting and at the call of the Chair we will be in touch with you for our next meeting.
The committee adjourned at 1611.