SELECT COMMITTEE ON
MENTAL HEALTH AND ADDICTIONS
COMITÉ SPÉCIAL DE LA SANTÉ
MENTALE ET DES DÉPENDANCES
Wednesday 1 April 2009 Mercredi 1er avril 2009
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The committee met at 1604 in committee room 1.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORTS
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Thank you. Let's come to order. The clerk has advised me that we need to speak very clearly into the microphones. For some reason, they're having some problem with picking up everything that we're saying.
We have the agenda before you. The meeting is for the purposes of organization. To get us started, we need somebody to read into the record the subcommittee report dated March 10 and March 11, which is revised. Would anyone like to read that? That would be the first one.
Mrs. Van Bommel?
Mrs. Maria Van Bommel: The very top one here?
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Yes.
Mrs. Maria Van Bommel: Summary of decisions made at the subcommittee on committee business.
Your subcommittee on committee business met on Tuesday, March 10, and Wednesday, March 11, 2009, to consider a work plan and a budget and recommends the following:
(1) That the committee clerk prepare a draft budget for presentation to the committee on Wednesday, March 25, 2009.
(2) That the committee invite representatives from the following ministries to appear before the committee: aboriginal affairs, Attorney General, children and youth services, citizenship and immigration, community and social services, community safety and correctional services, education, francophone affairs, health and long-term care, Ministry's Advisory Group on Mental Health and Addictions, health promotion, Ontario seniors' secretariat, municipal affairs and housing.
(3) That the committee invite as many expert witnesses as necessary to appear before the committee, including, but not limited to, Mr. Michael Wilson, Mr. Michael Kirby, Mr. Glen Thompson, Mr. Gordon Floyd, a representative of the Gerstein Centre, a representative of Parents for Children's Mental Health, a representative from the Durham Mental Health Services.
(4) That the committee schedule the ministry representatives and expert witnesses at its meetings on Wednesday, April 1, 8, 22, May 6, 13, 27 and June 3 and that the meetings be held from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m.
(5) That ministry representatives and expert witnesses be given 30 minutes to make presentations, including questions from the committee.
(6) That legislative research prepare a summary of all oral submissions (ministry, expert and public).
(7) That legislative research do a literature search regarding strategies for mental health and addictions in other jurisdictions, e.g. WOH and OECD.
(8) That, after hearing from the ministries and expert witnesses, the committee determine what more the committee needs and what form those needs should take (hiring of expert research, consultants, etc.).
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(9) That the committee clerk, with the authorization of the Chair, post information regarding the committee's business one day in the following area newspapers, in English and French newspapers where possible: Toronto, Windsor, St. Thomas, Hamilton, Kitchener, Thunder Bay, Sudbury, North Bay and Ottawa.
(10) That the committee clerk also post information regarding the committee's business on the Ontario parliamentary channel and on the committee's website.
(11) That interested people who wish to be considered to make an oral presentation should contact the committee clerk by 12 noon on Monday, May 11, 2009.
(12) That on Monday, May 11, 2009, the committee clerk provide the subcommittee members with an electronic list of all requests to appear.
(13) That, after the list of requests to appear has been distributed to the subcommittee, the subcommittee meet to determine certain aspects of the public hearings (presenters, times, duration of presentations etc.).
(14) That the committee hold public hearings the week of June 15, 2009, as follows: one day in Windsor, St. Thomas, Hamilton, and Kingston.
(15) That the committee hold public hearings the week of September 8, 2009, as follows: one day in Thunder Bay, Sudbury, North Bay and Ottawa.
(16) That the committee visit at least three First Nations communities the week of August 24, 2009.
(17) That the committee hold public hearings in Toronto in the fall of 2009 while the House is sitting.
(18) That the committee visit a treatment centre in the United States (Buffalo or Philadelphia).
(19) That the committee travel an additional two weeks in the November 2009-March 2010 period if required.
(20) That the committee clerk, in consultation with the Chair, be authorized, prior to the passage of the report of the subcommittee, to commence making any preliminary arrangements necessary to facilitate the committee's proceedings.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Thank you, Mrs. Van Bommel. Speaking to the motion, Mme Gélinas, then Ms. Jones.
Mme France Gélinas: I noted two discrepancies. The first one is, at point 9, she mentioned Toronto, Windsor, St. Thomas, Hamilton, and she mentioned Kitchener. I think she meant to say "Kingston."
Mrs. Maria Van Bommel: Did I say "Kitchener"? I'm sorry. I saw "Kingston" and I said "Kitchener." I apologize.
Mme France Gélinas: The other one is a very small one. In point 7, when referring to the two examples, she referred to "WOH," when it's "WHO."
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): No problem. They will be corrected. Anything else, France?
Mme France Gélinas: No.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Ms. Jones?
Ms. Sylvia Jones: Just a question for the subcommittee: In point 11, "That interested people who wish to be considered to make an oral presentation should contact the committee clerk by 12 noon on Monday, May 11, 2009," is that for everyone who would like to appear up to and including the public hearings that are occurring in the fall of 2009, or would that be just for the week of June 15?
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Good point. At the following subcommittee meeting, we realized that that was too early, really, for the people who are going to be appearing in the late summer or the fall period, so you'll see that that gets changed in the next minutes of the subcommittee, as point–what point is it?
Interjection.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): That gets split up into points 7 and 8.
Ms. Sylvia Jones: Thank you.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): So these are the changes that were made as a result of the discussion we had at the last meeting of the full committee, and since that date, the subcommittee has met again.
Are there any other points on the first set of minutes? If not, do I need somebody to move them?
Interjection.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Just carry it? Okay.
Let's go on, then. We need somebody to—I don't know if you have a sore throat or not now, after doing that, Maria.
Mrs. Maria Van Bommel: No, I'm good, as long as I don't get ahead of myself.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): If you want to go on to the second one, there may be some discussion that arises from that.
Mrs. Maria Van Bommel: Someone will correct me if I get this wrong, so that's just fine.
Your subcommittee on committee business met on Monday, March 30, 2009, to consider a work plan and recommends the following:
(1) That committee meetings on Wednesday, April 8, 22, May 6, 13, 27 and June 3, 2009, be extended to 6:30 if required to accommodate the representatives from the ministries as well as expert witnesses.
(2) That the committee invite the following additional individuals or representatives from the following additional organizations as expert witnesses to appear before the committee:
—Centre for Addiction and Mental Health;
—Canadian Mental Health Association, Ontario branch;
—Ms. Cornelia Wieman, member, First Nations, Inuit and Métis Advisory Committee, MHCC;
—Dr. A.J. Cole, coordinator, Northern Ontario Francophone Psychiatric Program, Faculty of Medicine, University of Ottawa;
—Dr. Paula Goering, chair, Homelessness Research Initiative, MHCC.
(3) That the committee accept the invitation for a tour of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, and that the committee clerk make arrangements for the committee members to tour the facilities on Thursday, May 14, 2009, from 12 p.m. to 4 p.m., and that an alternate date for the tour of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health be Thursday, May 28, 2009, from 12 p.m. to 4 p.m.
(4) That the committee clerk, with the authorization of the Chair, post information regarding the committee's business in two separate ads for the public hearings in June 2009 in Windsor, St. Thomas, Hamilton and Kingston; and the public hearings in September 2009 and the fall of 2009 in Toronto, Thunder Bay, Sudbury, North Bay and Ottawa.
(5) That the committee clerk send out a press release regarding the committee's business on CNW.
(6) That the committee clerk also post information regarding the committee's business on the Ontario parliamentary channel and on the committee's website.
(7) That interested people who wish to be considered to make an oral presentation in Windsor, St. Thomas, Hamilton and Kingston should contact the committee clerk by 12 noon on Monday, May 11, 2009.
(8) That interested people who wish to be considered to make an oral presentation in Toronto, Thunder Bay, Sudbury, North Bay and Ottawa should contact the committee clerk by 12 noon on Monday, August 10, 2009.
(9) That on Monday, May 11, 2009, and on Monday, August 10, 2009, the committee clerk provide the subcommittee members with an electronic list of all requests to appear.
(10) That after the list of requests to appear has been distributed to the subcommittee, the subcommittee meet to determine certain aspects of the public hearings (presenters, times, duration of presentations etc.).
(11) That the committee clerk, in consultation with the Chair, be authorized prior to the passage of the report of the subcommittee to commence making any preliminary arrangements necessary to facilitate the committee's proceedings.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Thank you, Mrs. Van Bommel.
Item 3: At the time that decision was discussed, we thought Thursday afternoons might work, and it appears that for perhaps a majority of members Thursday afternoons aren't going to work, unfortunately. So we probably need a bit more discussion on that.
Items 7 and 8: We'll probably clear up your suggestion, Sylvia, on the changes to the notification, so we may not have to discuss them.
On the first point, I think committee members would all agree that that is only if necessary. We put that down as we would meet until 6:30 "if required," but it wouldn't be a regular occurrence, and only if we needed to accommodate somebody the committee really wanted to hear from.
Why don't we open up with number 3, and perhaps see if we can't organize that tour. Bas, and then Liz.
Mr. Bas Balkissoon: We normally meet on Wednesday right now, and on Wednesdays the House doesn't start until 3. So if you just shift it to Wednesday, we can all go.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): The problem is that with the number of people from CAMH that we've heard from, we're starting to realize that that's not going to be a one-hour tour.
Mr. Bas Balkissoon: But I mean we can go from noon until 4. The House starts at 3, and we'll get back here for 4. If there's a vote at 5 o'clock on that Wednesday, we'll be here on time. So Wednesday will work better.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Okay. As long as we're going to accommodate that much time in their schedule, that might work.
Mr. Bas Balkissoon: Yes, because on Wednesday we don't meet until 3 o'clock. I think that if we go on a Wednesday, it will be okay.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Okay. The other suggestion that was being made was a Monday morning. Liz?
Mrs. Liz Sandals: Yes. I'm fine with Monday morning, understanding that we wouldn't be back in time for question period. I'm okay with either.
Thursday the 28th is a total disaster for me. On the 14th, I think that four of us here are on House duty Thursday afternoon—five, counting you, Chair. The odds that we can get five subs on a Thursday afternoon are somewhere between slim and nil.
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The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): If we decide that a Wednesday afternoon is preferable—
Interjection.
Mrs. Liz Sandals: Oh, we've got—okay. Let me think about this for a minute.
Interjection.
Mrs. Liz Sandals: Yes, once we go into report writing, at public accounts—what were the dates?
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Okay, is there anybody—
Mrs. Liz Sandals: Just hang on, though, because depending on what we're doing, public accounts meets Wednesday morning and Wednesday afternoon. So the Wednesday doesn't meet if we're doing public hearings.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Let's go on to Sylvia, and then we can come back to you, Liz.
Ms. Sylvia Jones: My preference would be Wednesday afternoon for sure, whether that starts at 4 o'clock or a noon tour—
Mr. Bas Balkissoon: We'd start at 12:30.
Ms. Sylvia Jones: Well, yes.
The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Susan Sourial): Can I just say that we spoke to CAMH, and they said to allow at least three hours for the tour.
Mr. Bas Balkissoon: So 12:30 to 3:30?
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): France, from your schedule with your party, does it—
Mme France Gélinas: I'm also on public accounts, but if it's not something that has to do with health, then I would ask somebody else to sub in for me on public accounts on Wednesday. So I could make myself available starting at noon on Wednesday. I don't have the schedule for public accounts right now, but as soon as I have it, I can let you know which Wednesday I would be free.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Okay, so Wednesday afternoon would work for everybody if we could sort out public accounts. Liz, can we find a date when we know that public accounts is not meeting?
Mrs. Liz Sandals: I think that, as of May 27, we will only be meeting in the morning. So on May 27 and the following week in June, it looks to me like public accounts will only be meeting from 9 to 10:30, so the public accounts committee members would be free from 12:30 to 3:30 or 12 to 4.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): May 27 would work for me. June 3: Is there any reason—
Interjection.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): June 3 is the day before the House rises. Does that present any issues for anybody?
Mrs. Liz Sandals: It means it's more likely there will be votes that are sort of randomly all over the place.
Mme France Gélinas: So May 27 would be better.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Okay, let's aim for May 27, with June 3 as our backup date, but our preference being May 27. We'll amend item 3. Would you move that, Liz?
Mrs. Liz Sandals: Yes.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Okay, are there any other points here? Christine, you went through it. You're good with everything? I don't think there was anything that really deviated from what we were thinking of doing.
France, anything?
Mme France Gélinas: I remember a suggestion being made. I forget what it's called, but it had to do with sending a media advisory where it was a question of $200, and that would send it everywhere. I didn't find this in number 5.
Interjection.
Mme France Gélinas: That's what you were talking about before? What does CNW stand for?
The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Susan Sourial): Canada NewsWire.
Mme France Gélinas: Sorry, I didn't recognize it. Thank you.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Any other points?
Ms. Helena Jaczek: I'm not sure if it really is appropriate here, but in relation to our list of individuals, we did have some discussion last time about looking into who the stakeholders of the various ministries were, and I did get a list from the Ministry of Health Promotion of who they formally consider their stakeholders. I don't know if we want to add them now or if we're just going to invite them anyway. But in addition to CAMH and the Canadian Mental Health Association, who we have on the list, they have the Ontario Public Health Association and the U of T Centre for Health Promotion as also considered stakeholders.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): What we did, just so you understand, Helena, is we went through the list that was provided by research, which was quite an extensive list, and we realized, with the amount of the time we had available to us between now and the break and the advent of summer, that we could only see a certain number of people. We fully anticipate expanding this list, but this gets us through this term to the start of the summer, and these will be the people who will have been invited to date, but certainly we should include those people on the next list.
Ms. Helena Jaczek: I didn't see them on the research lists, so I did double-check. I could perhaps forward those to you.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): We fully anticipate we'll be hearing from a lot more people. We just heard today that Senator Kirby has accepted our invitation to appear in May—
Interjection.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Oh, and we think it's May 27, which actually could be timely, right, if we're meeting at 4?
Mme France Gélinas: Yes. We could be back for 4.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): It probably ties right in. It will be a good afternoon's worth of mental health.
Mme France Gélinas: Maybe tell him to come at 4:30, just in case.
Mrs. Liz Sandals: Tell him 4:30. Don't book it. That day it would not be good to book anybody at—
The Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Susan Sourial): I think it's 5.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Is it 5? That will work out fine.
Mrs. Liz Sandals: It would probably not be good to book at 4.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): France?
Mme France Gélinas: I know I'm the one who was aghast at the price of advertising, but I would ask the indulgence of the committee that not only do we advertise in Thunder Bay, Sudbury and North Bay, where we will have hearings, but in Timmins also. Although we won't be going to Timmins, I know there's very high interest in the Timmins-Cochrane area, all the way up the James Bay coast. If we could advertise in the Timmins daily—I don't know the name of it, but I know that there's a paper out there.
The Chair (Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn): Okay. Any issues with that? No?
Okay, all those in favour of the minutes from your subcommittee, as amended? Opposed? That is carried.
Any other business? Seeing none, we're adjourned. Thank you very much. We can get going now.
The committee adjourned at 1625.
CONTENTS
Wednesday 1 April 2009
Subcommittee reports MH-19
SELECT COMMITTEE ON MENTAL HEALTH AND ADDICTIONS
Chair / Président
Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn (Oakville L)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Présidente
Mrs. Christine Elliott (Whitby—Oshawa PC)
Mr. Bas Balkissoon (Scarborough—Rouge River L)
Mrs. Christine Elliott (Whitby—Oshawa PC)
Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn (Oakville L)
Mme France Gélinas (Nickel Belt ND)
Ms. Helena Jaczek (Oak Ridges—Markham L)
Ms. Sylvia Jones (Dufferin—Caledon PC)
Mr. Jeff Leal (Peterborough L)
Mrs. Liz Sandals (Guelph L)
Mrs. Maria Van Bommel (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex L)
Clerk / Greffière
Ms. Susan Sourial
Staff / Personnel
Ms. Carrie Hull, research officer,
Research and Information Services