STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
COMITÉ PERMANENT DE L'ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE
Thursday 21 November 2002 Jeudi 21 novembre 2002
FIREFIGHTERS' MEMORIAL
ACT, 2002
LOI DE 2002
SUR LE MONUMENT COMMÉMORATIF
EN HOMMAGE AUX POMPIERS
ONTARIO ASSOCIATION OF FIRE CHIEFS
Thursday 21 November 2002 Jeudi 21 novembre 2002
The committee met at 1533 in committee room 1.
FIREFIGHTERS' MEMORIAL ACT, 2002
LOI DE 2002
SUR LE MONUMENT COMMÉMORATIF
EN HOMMAGE AUX POMPIERS
Consideration of Bill 113, An Act to honour firefighters who have died in the line of duty / Projet de loi 113, Loi visant à rendre hommage aux pompiers décédés dans l'exercice de leurs fonctions.
The Chair (Mrs Margaret Marland): I'd like to call this meeting of the standing committee of the Legislative Assembly to order. Today we are dealing with Bill 113, An Act to honour firefighters who have died in the line of duty. It stands in the name of Mr Wood. I believe, Mr Wood, you wished to speak about the amendments you had tabled with the clerk.
Mr Bob Wood (London West): Yes, I do wish to speak on that. What I'd like to do is withdraw the amendments.
The Chair: There were no amendments received other than the three from Mr Wood. He's now withdrawn those three amendments, so we would like to proceed with our deputations.
RON GORRIE
The Chair: The first presenter, representing the Ontario Professional Fire Fighters Association, is Mr Ron Gorrie, the executive vice-president. Welcome, Mr Gorrie, to the committee. You may proceed. There is a 15-minute presentation time; if you wish, you may leave time for the members to ask you questions or you are entirely free to use the time to your own purposes.
Mr Ron Gorrie: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm sure I'll be finished well in advance of 15 minutes, and I hope the members only ask nice questions for the remaining time.
On behalf of the 9,000 professional firefighters in the province of Ontario, I'm honoured to make this presentation speaking in favour of Bill 113, An Act to honour firefighters who have died in the line of duty. My name is Ron Gorrie, and I'm proud to have been elected to the position of executive vice-president of the Ontario Professional Fire Fighters Association in June of this year. I have also been appointed by President Fred LeBlanc to act as the OPFFA representative on the steering committee for the memorial.
Just recently, on November 11, we all bowed our heads in memory of the fallen members of the armed forces. A majority of us participated in Remembrance Day services at memorials erected in memory of fallen members of our communities or watched these same services on television. The construction of memorials to the fallen heroes of armed conflict was done to preserve their memory and also to provide places of remembrance.
Bill 113 will provide funding for construction of a centrally located memorial at Queen's Park to honour firefighters who have made the ultimate sacrifice to their community. It is an appropriate memorial for a great many reasons.
Location: an existing memorial constructed on the grounds of the Ontario Fire College at Gravenhurst is not readily accessible to the general public. A new location at Queen's Park will allow for free access and encourage the public to contemplate sacrifices made. By being near subway lines and major traffic routes, perhaps the firefighters' memorial can become a meeting place and take on the atmosphere of most fire stations across our province, namely, a place of community and friendship.
History: a true link to past heroes will be established with the inscription of the names of firefighters killed in the line of duty since the establishment of the province of Ontario. The sacrifices made will be honoured and recognized.
Finally, the future: the memorial can become a focal point with respect to public safety. Students on firefighter memorial Sunday will have a concrete symbol to use during discussions and thought on the hazards facing them every day. Their own futures may be protected by the lessons learned and future thoughts and attitudes may be nurtured while thinking of the dedication of those honoured on the memorial's walls.
While I am certain we will all pray that no more brave persons perish while serving the community, I know that those I am proud to call sister and brother will continue to give up their lives in service to the citizens of this province. Thus it is fitting that at the centre of our government, a proper and public memorial is erected to honour these sacrifices.
This memorial will have a definite personal meaning to me, as on the walls will be the names of a number of close friends, one of whom actually died in my arms while attempting to rescue a trapped citizen.
On behalf of the members of the Ontario Professional Fire Fighters Association I would ask you to pass Bill 113. This is all respectfully submitted. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr Gorrie. Are there questions of Mr Gorrie?
Mr Dave Levac (Brant): Ron, I know that this particular issue is near and dear to your heart and I respect and admire your ability to vocalize that.
I also suggest to you, and I would say so in a very non-partisan way, that this was an evolution that has been taking place in the last little while, and I commend and thank Mr Wood for bringing this forward in this manner. We've discussed this in a very personal way. I've sent letters to the minister outlining some of the things that I thought were appropriate at the time, giving full support of our firefighters across the province, both volunteer and professional, and those who work in a peripheral way around that.
Within your own organization I know there's been some discussions regarding this particular issue, so I'll stay focused on this issue. In terms of your offering of support, has that been after the dialogue that I know took place and you're satisfied that this is an appropriate opportunity for us?
Mr Gorrie: Exactly that: our association passed a number of resolutions at convention looking for a memorial at Queen's Park to honour fallen firefighters in the province. We believe that the format that's been adopted and proposed through previous meetings will be more than appropriate and will have the full support of the members of the Ontario Professional Fire Fighters Association.
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Mr Levac: Madam Chair, if I may continue, there's a couple of quick questions I will ask. Were you aware that this evolution started before September 11?
Mr Gorrie: Yes I am, and I certainly appreciate that. As we all know, September 11 brought a lot of attention to the people in my profession, and the dedication and the service there. I think it's so great that we can point to the fact that the evolution of creating a memorial started pre-September 11. If you will, it speaks well for the members of the Legislature and this committee who have advanced that particular memorial.
Mr Levac: I would also like to offer my compliments and congratulations to Mr Wood on the way in which he proceeded. I know that process is important to him in terms of the involvement of all the people he has kept in the loop. I put that on the record to offer to Mr Wood. I thank him for that. He also listened carefully to some of the concerns that were raised, and in doing so, shows that the committee is the right place to do an awful lot of this work. I do support him in his venture in that particular story. Finally, a compliment to the firefighters, and in particular, I'd like to offer it to the families and friends of those who so willingly allow this gift to take place, because I know it's a very large hurt for them as well.
This is nothing but good news for our firefighters in the province of Ontario.
The Chair: Further questions?
Mr Wood: I wanted to make an observation. I think we as Canadians tend to be poor about celebrating who we were and who we are. That has an implication for the future, as you pointed out in your submission. I'd like to invite you and everyone interested in this bill, once this is done, as I'm quite convinced it will be done within perhaps six months -- once this is done I hope we'll think about how we can make sure that all 12 million people in this province know about it and visit it. I think they're going to become better citizens and we're going to become a better province as a result of it. I issue that to you as an invitation. I really have no questions as such because I thought you put the whole case very well. Thank you for coming and thank you for your help.
Just for Mr Levac's information, which I don't think I shared with him earlier, I wrote to fire services and firefighters across the province and we heard back from about 70 of them. A couple actually didn't feel this was the right thing to do, but almost all of them did. We got a lot of good input from across the province, so I want to publicly acknowledge them as well.
I'm not going to get into the discussion of parliamentary reform, which is near and dear to my heart; I'm staying away from that. But feel free to come back to this committee later, because we're discussing that as well.
Those were my questions. I think Mr Maves may have a question.
Mr Bart Maves (Niagara Falls): Mr Gorrie, thank you for the presentation. This answer has probably been already given, perhaps even by Mr Wood in the Legislature, but I wasn't available for it. Does the association have a good indication of how many firefighters have lost their lives in the line of duty?
Mr Gorrie: I apologize for being ignorant of the number, but I can guarantee that the next speaker will be able to give you almost a precise number. I suggest respectfully that that would be a more appropriate question for him.
The Chair: No further speakers? Thank you again very much, Mr Gorrie, for your contribution this afternoon.
ROBERT KIRKPATRICK
The Chair: I would invite Mr Robert Kirkpatrick, who is a captain in the Mississauga Fire and Emergency Services. Welcome, Mr Kirkpatrick.
Mr Robert Kirkpatrick: Thank you for having me today, honourable members, Chair Marland. For those of you who don't know, my name is Robert Kirkpatrick. I am a captain with the Mississauga Fire and Emergency Services and the author of the recently published book, Their Last Alarm: Honouring Ontario's Firefighters. Initiated in 1996 by what I felt was a lack of recognition, this book chronicles the stories of 300 Ontario firefighters who died in the performance of their duties and, as the honourable Lincoln Alexander says in the foreword, "was long overdue." During my initial research, to my surprise I found that no government agency had a historical record of Ontario's fallen firefighters and no official memorial was in place.
Today I am speaking to you on the importance of Bill 113, the Firefighters' Memorial Act, and the successful building of an official government memorial to Ontario's fallen firefighters, which I too feel is long overdue.
Every day in Ontario, whether full-time or volunteer, firefighters are prepared to risk their lives for the benefit of their community and its citizens. Why they do it is not clear. Certainly they don't do it for financial gain. No firefighter is thinking of getting killed when they answer an alarm. They are there to put the fire out or to rescue victims. Firefighters do not regard themselves as heroes; they do what the job requires. When they answer the alarm and risk their lives in some kind of action, it usually goes by with little fanfare -- part of the job -- until a death occurs.
From William Thornton, who died from an injury sustained while fighting a fire in Toronto in 1848, when Ontario was known as Canada West, to April Hopkin, who died while responding to a call just last month north of Sault Ste Marie, firefighters in this province have suffered great losses. They have died in many ways: smoke inhalation, burns, falls, building collapses, drowning, vehicle accidents, explosions and heart attacks caused by stress. They have also died from work-related illnesses most likely caused by exposure to smoke-related chemicals over their long careers.
Historically, volunteer firefighters in the province were the guardians of their towns, protecting their citizens from the ravages of fire, performing heroic acts and often being injured or killed without compensation. Many firefighter deaths have contributed to the stringent regulations found in Ontario's building and fire codes developed in the 1970s. Inquests into their deaths has led to better equipment and procedures within the fire service and, unlike earlier times, safer buildings in which to operate when a fire does occur. But nowhere in these regulations will you find the name of the firefighter fatality that led to a change.
The name of Toronto fire captain George Stevens is nowhere to be found when learning that designated elevators in a high-rise building must have a separate firefighter control and be enclosed in a pressurized shaft. Captain Stevens died in 1966 when the elevator malfunctioned and opened on the fire floor. Nowhere in the Ministry of Labour's guidelines for firefighters on ice rescue will you find the name of Cornwall firefighter Roland Larochelle, who became the first Ontario firefighter to drown while trying to rescue someone on the St Lawrence River in 1964.
The job hasn't changed much in 160 years and today they are still called upon to save lives and property. They are most often a victim's last resort. Many have died trying.
In 1870, firefighter William Reeks of St Thomas died when a burning building collapsed while trying to rescue the valuables of the homeowner. The fire hoses were frozen. His name is not on a memorial. In 1914, Stratford fire chief Hugh Durkin was killed when the burning steeple of a church fell and buried him. His name is not on a memorial. In 1922, Haileybury firefighter Gervais Sutherland gave up his spot in a fleeing car for two small children, only to face certain death in his town's conflagration. His name is not on a memorial. In 1941, Ottawa firefighter William Morin was killed responding to a call when his truck was involved in an accident. His name is not on a memorial. In 1955, Captain Jack Wilson of Windsor collapsed and later died from smoke inhalation while rushing into a burning house to rescue a child. His name is not on a memorial. In 1965, Peterborough firefighter Elton Bannon died in a building fire while searching for victims. His name is not on a memorial. In 1990, Port Colborne firefighter Harry Chevailier died in an attempt to rescue drowning victims in Lake Erie. His name is not on a memorial.
These are just some of the over 300 reasons this government needs to permanently recognize the sacrifice made by these fallen firefighters. Other than a memorial at the Ontario Fire College that has no names on it, this group of fallen firefighters are remembered nowhere else collectively. Due to its location, the memorial, located at the fire college in Gravenhurst, is usually only seen by firefighters and not the general public or the families of the fallen.
A memorial such as the one proposed in Bill 113 would bring a fitting tribute to this group to a location where many more will see it and remind them of the sacrifices made for the safety of the province. It only makes sense that a memorial to Ontario's fallen firefighters be built near the capital of the province they died serving.
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It is also fitting that such a memorial have the names of all fallen firefighters inscribed on it for all to see. While assisting with the Toronto fire services memorial and interviewing many relatives of the fallen, it was strongly evident that a memorial is much more significant if it has a name attached to it. The relatives of these brave firefighters were quite moved, as the names carved in stone will remain forever and show that their sacrifice will not be forgotten. I feel it is the least the citizens of Ontario can give the surviving relatives who have suffered a great loss.
Unlike their counterparts in the police services, the cause of many firefighter fatalities is not precise and is the topic of great debate to this day. Many organizations and municipalities have varied definitions of a line-of-duty death. While many firefighters died while in the performance of their duties responding to, at the scene, or returning from an emergency, many died later from illnesses caused by years of firefighting or a single exposure to unknown chemicals. These deaths fall into what some refer to as a grey area and are recognized as line-of-duty deaths by some organizations and not by others.
Should the name of a firefighter who reached normal retirement age and has died after years of exposure to smoke, before efficient breathing apparatus was available, be included alongside a firefighter who died in a burning building collapse? Should the name of a firefighter who dies from a cancer any citizen can contract be included beside the name of a firefighter who drowns while trying to rescue people? Many colleagues of these firefighters are in disagreement, as you cannot be 100% sure the illness was caused by firefighting and they feel it might lessen the significance of the sacrifice made in an obvious line-of-duty death.
As you can see, firefighter fatalities fall into two categories: those who died in a direct action while in the performance of their duty and those who died from a work-related illness. The criteria for inclusion in such a significant memorial must be thoroughly considered. I hope that both these types of deaths can somehow be included.
These firefighters, who have mostly been forgotten with the passage of time, deserve official recognition from the government. The passing of Bill 113 will finally put and end to that. Thank you for your time.
The Chair: Thank you, Captain Kirkpatrick.
Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): These are all very moving. I can't think of anything to question. I have lots of comments but I think I'll save those until later.
Mrs Julia Munro (York North): I just want to offer my personal comments to you in undertaking what I think is a most important task and certainly one that I'm sure, in doing the research, must have been at times very painful. I think your efforts underline the importance of what we are looking at today in embarking on a permanent memorial.
As you were speaking and relaying some of those tragic stories of the individuals who died, it certainly crossed my mind the importance that many of us understand in the way that heroes are portrayed, and I think what you have uncovered for us, as people of this province, is 300 heroes. It's certainly something that needs the kind of permanent recognition that your work as an author has done, but also obviously in a memorial that people will be able to come to, see and appreciate. I want to thank you for the work you've done and the support you're providing today.
Mr Kirkpatrick: Thank you.
Mr Wood: You probably are the most knowledgeable person in Ontario or the world about the stories behind the 300 names we're going to have on the memorial and I hope that you will consider the invitation I offered a couple of minutes ago about thinking of ways in which we can promote this to the 12 million people of Ontario. I don't know whether you've given any thought to that already and have something that you want to put on the record today or you'd rather digest that and think about it later.
Mr Kirkpatrick: I'll certainly let you know if I come up with anything.
Mr Wood: Let me suggest one thing that is interesting, and I'll try and be very brief. When they liberated Paris in the latter stage of the Second World War, there was a revolt of partisans within Paris and quite a few were killed in the course of that revolt, which helped free the city. They memorialized each one individually in the place where they fell throughout the city. Do you think that would have any merit, if we were to memorialize firefighters where they fell? In Paris, they simply have the name, the date and "Died for France." You could actually do more than that. You could have the circumstances. As an off-the-cuff reaction, do you think that is something we should look at, or do you see that as being problematic?
Mr Kirkpatrick: That would take a lot of space, but --
Mr Wood: No, I'm talking about -- the memorial is going to be in London. If they died in London or they died in Sault Ste Marie or wherever, the memorial is actually there with a reference to the memorial at Queen's Park -- there's a little explanation right where it happened.
Mr Kirkpatrick: You mean like an Ontario historical plaque kind of thing?
Mr Wood: Yes, exactly.
Mr Kirkpatrick: I think that would be great, yes.
Mr Wood: Give it some thought. That's one way that we could consider promoting --
Mr Kirkpatrick: Certainly for the more significant incidents, but if it's significant, most communities certainly have something. For example, down near the Humber River they have a memorial plaque for the five volunteers who died in Hurricane Hazel. However, five firefighters died in the early 1980s out near Belleville, and I don't believe there's anything where the incident happened; certainly there's something at the fire station. But, yes, that would be something worth considering.
The Chair: Mr Maves?
Mr Maves: Thank you, Captain Kirkpatrick, for your presentation. You did indeed answer the question I asked of Mr Gorrie. The number of firefighters that your research showed -- 300-plus -- how far back does that go?
Mr Kirkpatrick: The first one I found was in 1848 in Toronto. I should say that since the book came out in June, there have been several names that will need to be added to it. The book, as it is right now, has 297 names in it.
The other problem that came up was that I was relying on information given to me by other municipalities and organizations, so if I didn't get a reply from a community, I wouldn't know that it happened. Since the book has come out, I have been made aware of some others. I would have to say that the number is probably closer to 325 known at this time. There might be more.
Mr Maves: You pointed out the difficulty of a definition of a line-of-duty death. First, do you have a definition that you would prefer to see us use, and second, do you have any advice on how we should go about reaching a definition we can use?
Mr Kirkpatrick: I think you just have to pick one and stick to it. I know the international firefighters' association has a specific definition of a line-of-duty death. It will include whatever illnesses the WSIB considers as work-related at this time.
Unfortunately, if you're going back over time, there could be a lot more that were caused by these illnesses back in the 1920s and 1930s that weren't recognized at the time. Some deaths that would be recorded now weren't recorded back then. Where are you going to draw the line? That's the big question.
The Chair: Ms Mushinski?
Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre): Actually, Mr Maves asked the question I was going to ask you. It was really within the context of 9/11 and the aftermath of that in terms of firefighters who actually survived that disaster, and if there are any guidelines or principles as to how we can make sure that those who have died of duty-related injuries or illnesses can be included in this, and if any new definitions or guidelines have been drafted since the events of 9/11?
Mr Kirkpatrick: I don't know of that. Perhaps Mr Gorrie would have a better answer on that. In regard to 9/11, I can tell you, just semi-related to what you're asking, that I spent five years researching the book and tried for a year and a half to get a publisher. I finally got one, and it was really hard to get one. After September 11 there were lots of people who wanted to publish the book.
Ms Mushinski: I'm sure there were.
Mr Kirkpatrick: So I stuck with the person who thought it was worthwhile before.
Ms Mushinski: Thank you for your presentation, by the way.
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The Chair: That's all the questions. Thank you.
Oh, sorry, Captain Kirkpatrick, Mr Levac has a question.
Mr Levac: I'm so unassuming. I want to thank you for your presentation and thank you very much for your research. Where can I get a copy of your book? Is it online?
Mr Kirkpatrick: At Chapters, but I believe there are only around 100 copies left, so you'd better hurry.
Mr Levac: They'll go fast. A second edition would be very warranted.
In my visitation to New York regarding 9/11 and also in the province's ceremonies with the police officers' memorial day, both of them have indicated that they, with their committees, continue to research and look at the addition of names of people who were passed over or at changed definitions. So I can assume that when we have these discussions, Mr Wood and other people will be making sure those additions can be taking place on a regular basis, because I know they do it with the police officers' memorial. I think they added two new names from back in the 1800s two years ago or last year. I would just point out that that is a possibility, and I'm sure we could dedicate ourselves to make sure those things happen.
You're aware that when I introduced Bill 107 there wasn't even an actual legislated day to have them memorialized. Bill 107, when I researched, indicated that we did have the first Sunday of every October, but that wasn't even classified as a legitimate day. So we've now memorialized it permanently, and I believe we're going to be doing the same thing with this bill. We're making it a legitimate, legalized memorial, and with that comes the responsibility of the creation of a committee of some sort. So I'm sure, I'm absolutely convinced, that we will be able to pick up an awful lot of the people you've immortalized in your book.
A quick question for you -- when asked about the future, there have already been some ideas floated. In terms of feedback from this, is there a registry now? As the result of your book, is there a registry from people who want to input?
Mr Kirkpatrick: People have been phoning me and they've contacted the publisher; that's the only way. I think I've been notified about three names since July, which I've been investigating for a possible second printing that looks like it will happen.
Mr Levac: I would refer that to Mr Wood in terms of its being another idea, the possibility of the creation of a registry. As this starts to happen, people will be stepping forward. So if we can create for the future -- we were talking about ideas to memorialize that -- Web sites that have a registry of people we need to investigate and those who are already on the memorial.
I offer you my thanks, and absolutely know, for the personal contact, that someone was virtually in tears in their conversation with me thanking you for your research. I want to pass that on to you.
Mr Kirkpatrick: Thanks very much.
The Chair: Thank you again, Captain Kirkpatrick.
ONTARIO ASSOCIATION OF FIRE CHIEFS
The Chair: Our next deputation is Chief Lee Grant, the Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs representative.
Mr Lee Grant: Thank you, Chair Marland. The Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs appreciates the opportunity to provide our organization's comments regarding Bill 113, the Firefighters' Memorial Act, 2002.
The Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs represents the full-time, composite and volunteer administrative levels of the Ontario fire service from a fire protection and prevention/education management perspective. Currently the OAFC has approximately 600 members representing over 400 fire service organizations across the province. Membership is comprised of full-time departments, protecting 55% of our population; composite departments, protecting 30% of the population; and volunteer fire departments, representing approximately 15% of our population.
Ontario fire chiefs are extremely proud to see a memorial being built on the grounds of Queen's Park. This is the political heart of Ontario, and thousands of citizens regularly pass through the park every week.
This monument is a very important recognition of the sacrifice made by all firefighters in Ontario, past and present, to support their communities. The Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs is honoured to join all firefighters in Ontario in supporting the construction of this memorial to the memory of those brave firefighters who gave their lives to protect life and property.
The Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs would like to thank the Honourable Robert Runciman and the Ontario government for its support in providing $500,000 toward the construction of this memorial. As an association we would be pleased to be part of the working group to guide and manage the construction and ongoing maintenance of this memorial.
The Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs is prepared to be one of the founding members of the foundation necessary to allow for the construction and ongoing maintenance of this important monument.
It is the hope of the Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs that the Fire Fighters Association of Ontario and the Ontario Professional Fire Fighters Association will join us to initiate the foundation which will be required to allow for fundraising to complete the monument and to ensure its ongoing maintenance. During preliminary meetings of the working group, it has become apparent that the total costs of designing, sculpting and erecting this new monument may well exceed the funds currently allocated by the government.
The Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs requests the Ontario government to continue to support this important initiative and to favourably consider additional funding of this project if it is required and requested by the foundation in the future.
The Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs would like to thank MPP Bob Wood for initiating the private member's Bill 113 and the Honourable Robert Runciman for his support of the project to date.
In closing, the Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs would ask the support of the standing committee on the Legislative Assembly to support Bill 113 as it is written and forward it to the Legislature for third reading.
Just before I answer questions I might suggest that we have a working group of stakeholders. That might be an excellent spot for a definition of who might be placed on that monument to come from, as a place to start. In fact, there have been some small preliminary discussions surrounding that. I optimistically believe it will be fairly straightforward to come to an agreement on that.
My second observation is that for recent firefighter deaths we have a fairly good registry of those who are felt to be firefighter deaths by the workers' insurance board. So we do have a spot in Ontario where we can find later deaths. I do agree it's going to be difficult to pinpoint earlier ones.
The Chair: Thank you, Chief Grant. That's a helpful suggestion that you've just made. I didn't mention in introducing Chief Grant -- it isn't on our agenda -- he is the second vice-president of the Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs. We have questions starting with the government members.
Mr Wood: I want to reiterate my invitation to you and your association to consider ways of promoting this once it gets done, as I think it will get done. I hope the working group, which I guess is going to turn into a foundation in due course, will consider what we hear today.
This has been open to the public, it has been advertised to the public and I think we've had a number of good ideas from quite well-qualified people. I hope that group -- whoever may be on it -- will take a look at the transcript of this hearing so they can have the benefit of the very good ideas that were put forward by the public today.
Other than those observations, I guess I would invite you to comment on the question I asked the last presenter about the memorials. Do you see any merit in -- perhaps in an organized way and I would think with the support of the family of the person who'd passed away -- having those memorials throughout the province?
Mr Grant: Yes, I do. I think that is a very appropriate way to consider personalizing the memorial of these people and making their own communities more aware. As in many places, in the city of Peterborough we have our fallen firefighters' memorial at our fire hall. But I would dare say that a very small percentage of our community is actually aware of the names of the individuals and the circumstances under which that happened.
Mr Wood: Those are my questions.
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Mr Maves: Thank you, Chief, for your presentation. For the most part I would argue that money shall be no object in the creation of this memorial. I do note that --
Mr Levac: "Shall"?
Mr Maves: I do note that you said that the design, sculpting and erecting exceeds the funds currently --
Mr Grant: Yes.
Mr Maves: Do you have a price tag that we've come up with to date?
Mr Grant: I do not, but in preliminary discussions, because of the location and the fact that it's above a subway system and a few other things, the indication we got from the designers is that it may approach closer to $750,000. But that is very preliminary, based on the way the model looked and what they believed they were likely to run into when they started breaking ground.
Mr Maves: I sit on Management Board, so it's relevant to me. Thank you very much.
Mr Levac: I still like the word "shall."
Ms Mushinski: That's because we spent the hours debating it.
Mr Levac: That "shall" was nice, I liked that one.
The foundation, I think, in the police memorial dedicated the appropriate amount of money to ensure that the monument was established.
I won't say "shall," but I'm guessing we will be able to get the commitment from at least what the foundation is requesting. So I do support your observation that the money is now needed, fine. As our fundraising proceeds and our numbers start to roll in, I think it's appropriate to go back to the government and, as indicated by Mr Maves, their ears would definitely be very wide open to hear that this gets done. I would support that.
Chief, I'm just wondering if there is any other avenue that you believe has not been covered? Obviously the support from your association has been there from the beginning and is evident. Is there any other avenue that you discussed in your group that maybe something didn't get hit? I like to ask those questions not as a criticism of the bill but as, "What happens if we didn't cover this off?" Is there anything that you've come across?
Mr Grant: Our association discussed this at both the executive board level and a general meeting of our membership that was held just in this last week. There was unanimous support and no reservations on the part of over 140 members who were in the room.
I believe that between your bill, which sets an appropriate date, and the creation of the monument, our membership is extremely pleased with the actions taking place at this time.
Mr Levac: In terms of feedback that I was seeking originally way back in 2000, it looked like there was beginning to be an understanding of the commitment of firefighters in the province of Ontario and that people across the board and across political lines were looking at a way in which we could elevate that. It was appreciated that it was understood, that people were beginning to pay attention. The fire marshal was asked for feedback. The chiefs were asked for feedback. I can only say in a positive way that I do agree with some of the statements that were made regarding its being overdue, but now that it's happening, I am so proud of the people who have been putting this together in terms of a non-partisan and "the right thing to do" kind of comment.
This is where most politicians actually gain a lot of the juice they need to have faith in the system again, because when we do pull our heads together and work on a common cause, it's the right thing to do.
To the families of your organization and to the members you represent, and their families, I want to congratulate you and thank again all those people who do that hard work, day in and day out. It's the right thing to do, and I'm so proud of what's been happening.
Mr Grant: Thank you.
Mr Prue: Sorry, I had to go outside. I just read this and the only question I have here is related to the fund for maintenance. Has there been a discussion? I need to understand what that is. That is surely not the maintenance of the grounds and the planting of flowers around it? Surely our staff in Queen's Park will being doing that?
Mr Wood: Could you raise that when we get to the discussion stage?
Mr Prue: But I want to know from you what you anticipate the maintenance to be. Is it the maintenance of the stone itself? Because stone weathers and once in a while will need to be repaired. Or have you been told that it's maintenance of the grounds and the flowers around it?
Mr Grant: It is the working group's understanding that it is the maintenance of the monument itself and the cost of adding names and so on as the happenings occur.
Mr Prue: I think that's more than reasonable. I didn't want to see firefighters down here planting flowers and things to make it look nice. I think that's our job.
The Chair: No further questions, then. Thank you again, Chief Grant, for coming this afternoon.
Again, thank you to all the deputations. We appreciate very much both your input and your support.
We will now move to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill 113. First of all, are there any other comments, questions or amendments, and, if so, to which section?
Mr Wood: I have a few general comments I want to make which pertain to all the sections, so it would be in your hands as to when I might make those. I'd be happy to do it now; if you think it's better at a later stage in the proceedings, I'll do it later. I have a few comments that pertain to all sections of the bill.
The Chair: Why don't we move to section 1, which speaks to the purpose of the bill and the firefighters' memorial. Obviously the bill is An Act to honour firefighters who have died in the line of duty, and I think this would be an important position in the process for you to make those comments. Let's begin with section 1 and this will be the discussion.
Mr Wood: What I'd like to do is make a couple of points. When this building was conceived and designed some 110 years ago, the idea of it, as envisaged by the Premier, Sir Oliver Mowat, and all the other people who worked on it, was that it would show who we had been as a people, who we were as a people and the possibilities of the future. That was the vision for this building and these precincts. I think that was a sound vision and I think the building achieved that. I think it still does today what it was intended to do 110 years ago.
However, I think there are some important enhancements that we can do to achieve that mandate. One of them that has been done recently is of course the police memorial; another is this memorial. It enhances the ability of this building and these precincts to show who we were, who we are and the potential for who we can be. That really was my motivation in bringing this bill forward: to honour those who had made such a contribution to Ontario in the past and to show people how that has made us what we are today and what I think is a very great potential for the future.
The second observation I want to make is that I think we should pass this bill today and send it back to the Legislative Assembly and hopefully the Legislative Assembly itself will pass it. The procedure set out in this bill I would hope would be folded into the procedure that is currently being pursued. In other words, this is not intended as a two-track approach but rather a one-track, but what I think is quite important is that we have the endorsation not just of the government but of the Legislature as a whole. So this is not just a government initiative, important and meritorious though that is; this is an initiative of all the representatives of the people of this province. So it is my intention, should this bill be passed, to encourage the Legislature to fold in -- they can easily fold into the process that the government is now following to get this done as quickly as possible. That's my intention; my intention is not to duplicate what the government has done, but to enhance what the government has done and to give an endorsation by all members of the Legislature, hopefully, of what I think is a very important addition to our legislative precincts.
The Chair: Any other discussion? All right. I will now put the question. Shall section 1 carry? Section 1 is carried.
I think because of the simplicity of this bill, we will accept the discussion now on sections 2 to 5, unless anyone has any objection to proceeding with sections 2 to 5, and then discussion on any part therein, if that's agreeable to members.
Mr Levac, you had your hand up.
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Mr Levac: Not an objection, though; to speak to --
The Chair: That's fine, if you can just identify which of those sections you're speaking to.
Mr Levac: If I may defer to Mr Wood on this, regarding his statement earlier on rolling in the two processes, is there, on section 2, Bob, anything that the government is presently doing that would change and request, as you're doing, the role of the Board of Internal Economy? Are you aware of that?
Mr Wood: No. I don't want to advise the Board of Internal Economy, because they're a body unto themselves. I think it would be fairly simple for them to follow the provisions of this bill and establish a small group, perhaps of three MPPs, who would liaise and assist and give the Legislature's endorsement to what's being done. I think there's a fairly simple way of following the provisions of this bill which, should they seek my advice, I will offer. Obviously, if the bill passes, it's up to them to decide how they want to do it. I do have some thoughts as to how that should be done. I don't want to stick my nose in until I have some invitation to do so.
Mr Levac: Right. The reason for the question was to ensure that that path can be taken and that it's not going to be obstructed and if we need to do anything to break that down. I just made the assumption from your comments that you believe that it would be melted very easily and that there wouldn't be a problem.
Mr Wood: I think if it's done properly, which is not totally of course in my hands, this can be a further endorsation and a further impetus to getting done what's in progress already.
Mr Levac: The next question then would be: is it fair to say that the three MPPs you're mentioning would be from all parties or are you looking for the government to decide on who that would be?
Mr Wood: I want to be a little cautious about saying too much about how I think it should be done, because that's the Board of Internal Economy's function. Personally speaking, I think there is merit to having representation from all three parties on such a committee. However, I don't want to say too much.
Mr Levac: I understand.
Mr Wood: If we pass this bill, we are turning it over to the Board of Internal Economy. Should they ask for my advice, I will be more than pleased to give it. I think there's a simple, workable model that will enhance this process, give it more momentum and give it the endorsation of the whole Legislature, but the details of that, any advice that might be sought from me, I would prefer to leave to the Board of Internal Economy. I do have some thoughts on it; I don't want to get too far along that road today.
Mr Levac: I appreciate the way in which you've been wording that.
I do want to pursue just a little bit more, because there have been other people working on the same process, outside of the government and into the realm of the Legislature, as you've described. I don't know that waiting for them to seek your advice -- would it be fair to ask of you to provide your advice and then let them decide? Because I think what you've been doing, as complimentary as I've been, is purposeful, and I wouldn't want to see the vision that you have, as we've discussed privately, removed simply because they didn't ask you, if you see where I'm coming from. It's not against any rules for you to offer your suggestion.
Mr Wood: They will have an obligation, should this bill pass, to follow the timelines of it. I intend, should the bill pass, to find out exactly what they're proposing to do, and should my advice be asked, I might well offer some suggestions as to how they might do it. I do not intend to drop out of this process should this bill pass. I'm going to find out from the board exactly how they intend to comply with the provisions of this bill.
Mr Levac: That's good.
Mr Wood: In fairness to the board, I think we should make contact with them. They may have better ideas than I do on how to do it. I am wedded to the proposition that I'd like to see this bill give increased momentum and increased endorsation to what's being done and, where appropriate, good ideas as to how it might be done. If they have a better idea of how to accomplish that, I'm not wedded to my own thoughts on that.
Mr Levac: Thank you very much for that clarification.
One final observation regarding, as Mr Wood did, the culmination of 2 to 5, I would suggest to the presenters and to the people they've represented that no one has had a monopoly on the goodwill that has been going on since 9/11. In one of my statements to the minister regarding the actions of the government versus the Legislature, I think it should be duly noted that members of all three parties -- and that went beyond the three parties in terms even of ridings all over the province -- have indicated their desire to see that firefighters deserve the credit that unfortunately was not publicly given on occasion and that now all people have become more sensitive to the needs of firefighting in Ontario.
As I've said, and it is repeating, I don't know if Mr Wood's Bill 113 is the end result, but it's the final chapter of an ongoing evolution that's been taking place in signifying that our firefighters are appreciated by many people across the board and, in particular, the Legislature.
I want to thank you, Madam Chair, for that indulgence. I will be endorsing this bill completely.
The Chair: Is there any further discussion on sections 2 through 5? Shall those sections carry? They are carried.
Shall the preamble carry? That is carried.
Shall the title of the bill carry? Carried.
Shall Bill 113 carry? That is carried.
Shall I report the bill to the House? It will give me great pleasure on your behalf to do that.
Mr Wood: Might I thank the committee for scheduling this and being kind enough to hold public hearings as well on the bill. I appreciate the support to date of all members of the House and certainly all members of this committee.
I might indicate for the purpose of the record that I intend to invite all three parties to give unanimous consent so we can get early third reading of this bill and get the legislative endorsement behind what I think is a very worthy project. I hope I'll be able to convince all members of the House to give unanimous consent to an early third reading. Thank you to the committee.
The Chair: We have completed dealing with Bill 113 this afternoon. I'm at the direction of the committee in terms of whether you wish to revert to discussion of the draft report we had submitted to us.
I would also like to thank Mr Michael Wood, who has just left, who was legislative counsel sitting with us this afternoon. I also want to thank Ms Anne Stokes, who is here this afternoon on behalf of Mr Doug Arnott, who had a personal situation that took him away from our committee this afternoon.
What is the wish of the committee? Do you wish to adjourn today? If we do, before we adjourn, we have to discuss -- and this is a suggestion that I take very well from Mr Doug Arnott, our regular clerk. One thing we should decide today is that we recognize that next Thursday, the 28th, is the last date for final approval to ensure the readiness of our report, that it can be translated and printed for presentation to the House by the last week, which begins December 9. I need your direction about whether you think, in hopefully two and a half hours, if we start by 3:30, we can complete the draft report next Thursday or whether in fact you need added meeting time in order to achieve that. I am at your direction.
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Mr Maves: We have a choice of finishing it on Thursday or passing legislation by unanimous consent. That would give us two or three more weeks. Is that right?
The Chair: No, we don't, not if we wish to have this report presented to the House in this session, before we rise for Christmas, because of the time needed for printing and translation before we can present it to the House.
Mrs Munro: Just a question for clarification: should that not be feasible, from the standpoint of the committee, is it possible that the report then can be given to the clerk's office when the House is not sitting?
The Chair: Tabled with the clerk?
Mrs Munro: "Tabled," that was the word I was looking for.
The Chair: Committee members, you may recall that originally we were to report by the end of October and we received an extension which in fact said that we should report to the House, in answer to your question Ms Munro, and not just table the report with the clerk. We were to report to the House by December 12.
I think two weeks ago we had some discussion about how much time it took to get a report translated, as far as the final draft. I'm confident that Mr Sibenik would be able to get the report prepared in English, but it's the time needed for translation that is our impediment. We're very quickly approaching December and we are only sitting two weeks in December, if we are on schedule. So that's our dilemma.
Mr Maves: Why is it so important for us to get it done so that it gets reported to the House before the end of the session? If we complete it in January, why is that a bad thing?
The Chair: When this mandate was assigned to this committee to do this study and research -- and I commend the members of the committee because you've worked very diligently at doing the research and study -- we were actually ordered by a motion of the House that notwithstanding the order of the House dated October 15, 2001, the standing committee on the Legislative Assembly shall submit its report on the inquiry into parliamentary reforms to the assembly by no later than December 12, 2002.
Mr Maves: But that could be amended by unanimous consent, could it not?
The Chair: By what?
Mr Maves: By unanimous consent of the House.
The Chair: It would require another motion from the House. I would suggest that since this mandate is to look into enhancing the role of private members, I would suggest to the committee that we have sincerely a true obligation to fulfill the mandate we were given. I think that if we delay it until after the House has risen perhaps the effectiveness of the report is then given less time to be assigned to it.
Mr Maves: Then we need figure out a schedule.
The Chair: Today we did have two and a half hours. My question now is, if two and a half hours is insufficient, would you be willing to add some other time next week to meet, or would you be willing or is it possible for you to consider sitting after 6 o'clock next Thursday, the 28th, if we're not complete? Perhaps that's --
Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): Better to sit on the Wednesday. I can't sit late on Thursday. I'm prepared to meet earlier.
The Chair: All right. Are other members available on Wednesday? What time would you be proposing, Mr Tascona?
Mr Tascona: After question period, if we have to.
The Chair: Mr Arnott and Ms Mushinski aren't here.
Mr Prue: That's not the answer. There's no one here from the Liberal Party. To be fair, we can't just do that.
Mr Tascona: They could have stayed.
The Chair: With respect, Mr Prue, we need a quorum.
Mr Prue: I know. I'm not trying to be nasty, I'm just saying we just can't arbitrarily say Wednesday. What I'm trying to suggest, Madam Chair, is --
The Chair: Let me answer your question. Mr Duncan is available now. He informed the clerk that if we moved back into the report this afternoon -- and it's now 4:35 -- he would be willing to come back into the committee, I understand.
Clerk of the Committee (Ms Anne Stokes): I believe so.
Mr Tascona: Let's do it.
The Chair: Do it now? OK, let's do it then.
Mr Maves: Can we have a 10-minute recess?
The Chair: All right. But do you want me to tell Mr Duncan we're going to proceed into the draft?
Mr Maves: Sure.
The Chair: OK.
Mr Tascona: I haven't got a draft, by the way.
Mr Maves: I got mine today.
Interjections.
Mrs Munro: Are we taking a recess?
The Chair: Yes, we will have a 10-minute recess till 4:45.
The committee continued in closed session at 1636.
CONTENTS
Thursday 21 November 2002
Firefighters' Memorial Act, 2002, Bill 113, Mr Wood / Loi de 2002 sur le monument
commémoratif en hommage aux pompiers, projet de loi 113, M. Wood M-25
Ontario Professional Fire Fighters
Association M-25
Mr Ron Gorrie
Mississauga Fire and Emergency Services
M-26
Mr Robert Kirkpatrick
Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs
M-29
Mr Lee Grant
STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
Chair / Présidente
Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South / -Sud PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Présidente
Mrs Julia Munro (York North / -Nord PC)
Ms Caroline Di Cocco (Sarnia-Lambton L)
Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell L)
Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South / -Sud PC)
Mr Bart Maves (Niagara Falls PC)
Mrs Julia Munro (York North / -Nord PC)
Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre / -Centre PC)
Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York ND)
Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford PC)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants
Mr Ted Arnott (Waterloo-Wellington PC)
Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair L)
Mr Dave Levac (Brant L)
Mr Bob Wood (London West / -Ouest PC)
Clerk / Greffier
Mr Douglas Arnott
Staff / Personnel
Mr Peter Sibenik, research officer
Research and Information Services