CONTENTS
Wednesday 25 November 1998
Integrity Commissioner and Lobbyists Statute Law Amendment Act, 1998,
Bill 69, Mr Hodgson / Loi de 1998 concernant le commissaire á l'intégrité
et les lobbyistes, project de loi 69, M. Hodgson
STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
Chair / Président
Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Simcoe Centre / -Centre PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président
Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings /
Prince Edward-Lennox-Hastings-Sud PC)
Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North / -Nord L)
Mr Carl DeFaria (Mississauga East / -Est PC)
Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings /
Prince Edward-Lennox-Hastings-Sud PC)
Mr Ernie Hardeman (Oxford PC)
Mrs Helen Johns (Huron PC)
Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East / -Est PC)
Mr Gilles E. Morin (Carleton East / -Est L)
Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough-Ellesmere PC)
Mr Peter North (Elgin Ind)
Mr Gilles Pouliot (Lake Nipigon / Lac-Nipigon ND)
Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Simcoe Centre / -Centre PC)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants
Mr Ed Doyle (Wentworth East / -Est PC)
Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay / Muskoka-Baie-Georgienne PC)
Mr Bert Johnson (Perth PC)
Clerk / Greffier
Mr Douglas Arnott
Staff / Personnel
Ms Laura Hopkins, legislative counsel
The committee met at 1536 in room 228.
INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER AND LOBBYISTS STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1998 / LOI DE 1998 CONCERNANT LE COMMISSAIRE À L'INTÉGRITÉ ET LES LOBBYISTES
Consideration of Bill 69, An Act to amend the Members' Integrity Act, 1994 and to enact the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998 / Projet de loi 69, Loi modifiant la Loi de 1994 sur l'intégrité des députés et édictant la Loi de 1998 sur l'enregistrement des lobbyistes.
The Chair (Mr Tascona): I believe that the quorum is present. Are there any comments, questions or amendments to any section of the bill? If so, which section? I believe there's a package of amendments.
Mr Gilles Pouliot (Lake Nipigon): Nothing focused but just a general comment, if I may, as you begin proceedings: This is a government bill. The bill in its entirety has 18 pages. We mentioned with members of the official opposition -- on s'accordait; we have Mr Curling -- that we don't have any amendments. We are generally supportive of the bill, but keeping in mind that this is a government bill, I'm a little lost. Maybe, counsel, you can help me. We find it passing strange, to say the least, that you have some 32 amendments on a government bill with no opposition from the opposition. Can I ask you? I want to know. I need your help.
The Chair: Mr Grimmett is the parliamentary assistant.
Mr Pouliot: With high respect, I need your help, you see. Can anyone get it right?
The Chair: Can you help Mr Pouliot, Mr Grimmett?
Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): I think I can, Mr Chair. Our public hearings were so fruitful, Mr Pouliot, that we were able to come up with improvements to this bill to make it even stronger and to reassure the public even more that we are going to be totally in control of the lobbyist situation in Ontario. We wanted this bill to be as strong as we could make it, and with the representations that we had at the public hearings, we decided to adopt many of the recommendations we heard. Some of them came from the Speaker himself who, as you recall, attended here in his robes and gave a very fiery presentation. We have adopted many of the recommendations he brought, subject to the comments that this committee will have. I believe it's a stronger bill if the recommendations go in.
Mr Pouliot: Briefly, Mr Parliamentary Assistant, I accept your answer. It took me 14 years to articulate and formulate the kind of answer you've given me after only three and a half years of exposure. You're to be commended. That's fair.
Mr Grimmett: Thank you for that.
Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): I just want to add that I really appreciate the parliamentary assistant's response. But could I then just ask the parliamentary assistant, did he take the same approach that all other bills have taken? I want to commend you, because without any opposition at all, as my dear colleague has said, you came up with 32 adjustments and amendments to your own bill. I presume you took the same process that was done with other bills. Did you?
Mr Grimmett: Yes, we did. We looked at whether the suggestions would strengthen the bill. I think we've been consistent on that. In this case we found amendments that would strengthen the bill.
Mr Curling: Could you tell me then what was different, that you came up with 32 newly formulated amendments that you just didn't come up with in other bills? You must have taken a new course. Is it that you as the parliamentary assistant are much more efficient than all the parliamentary assistants in the other ministries?
Mr Grimmett: I don't know.
Mr Curling: M. Pouliot has given the parliamentary assistant the opportunity to tell the people, as a former minister, how challenging those things are and how efficient the ministries are, especially in the support services. Here you are now coming forth, and I look through this lobbyists bill, and we welcome it. My party welcomes the fact that you have moved forward in this direction. It's long overdue. Mind you, it's here for the testing when the rubber hits the surface to see if it really works. But the fact is, I'm impressed that you came up with 32 amendments. We spoke about that. Other ministries were just not moved at all by some of the amendments we found, as opposition members, to other bills. I just want to know what you did differently.
Mr Grimmett: I think this is a different piece of legislation. This is a situation where we're breaking new ground. We got very good suggestions, I thought, from the lobbyist presenters at the public hearings, the Speaker had some very good points on the Members' Integrity Act portion of the bill and we found that the suggestions that came from the lobbyist industry actually led to a stronger bill. I think, as we go through the amendments, that you're going to see how fruitful these hearings have been and we're going to have a stronger bill once we're finished.
Mr Curling: Those are my comments.
The Chair: Let's proceed. On section 1: There's a government motion.
Mr Grimmett: I move that section 1 of the bill be struck out and the following substituted:
"1(1) The Members' Integrity Act, 1994 is amended by adding the following section:
"Powers and duties
"23.1 The commissioner may exercise the powers and shall perform the duties assigned to him or her under this act and any other act.
"(2) Section 25 of the act is repealed and the following substituted:
"Immunity
"25. No proceeding shall be commenced against the commissioner or an employee in his or her office for any act done or omitted in good faith in the execution or intended execution of the commissioner's or employee's duties under this act or any other act.
"(3) Section 26 of the act is amended by striking out 'this act' in the fifth line and substituting 'under this act or any other act.'"
The Chair: Any discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Shall section 1, as amended, carry? It's carried.
Shall section 2 carry? Carried.
Shall section 3 carry? Carried.
Shall section 4 carry? Carried.
On subsection 1(1) of the schedule, a government motion.
Mr Grimmett: I move that the definition of "minister" in subsection 1(1) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be struck out.
If I could offer an explanation, the amendment is needed as the minister will not be appointing the registrar. The responsibility for the lobbyists program will be under the Integrity Commissioner. Subsection 10(1) will also be amended to reflect this change. Section 10 appoints the Integrity Commissioner as the registrar rather than the minister appointing the registrar, and the Executive Council Act already defines the responsibilities for a minister, therefore it would be redundant to do so in the Lobbyists Registration Act.
The Chair: Shall the amendment to section 1 of the schedule carry? Carried.
Are there any other amendments to subsection 1(1) of the schedule?
Mr Grimmett: Yes, Mr Chair.
I move that the definition of "public office holder" in subsection 1(1) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended,
(a) by striking out "unless exempted by the regulations" in the first line of clause (c); and
(b) by striking out "unless exempted by the regulations" in the first line of clause (d).
The Chair: Any discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
The Chair: There's another amendment to subsection 1(1) of schedule 1.
Mr Grimmett: I move that the definition of "registrar" in subsection 1(1) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "designated under" in the first line and substituting "appointed by."
The Chair: Any discussion? Is the amendment carried? Carried.
Shall section 1 of the schedule, as amended, carry? Carried.
Shall section 2 of the schedule carry? Carried.
Shall section 3 of the schedule carry? Carried.
I understand there's an amendment to section 4.
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 4(1) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the second and third lines.
The Chair: Any discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
There's another amendment to subsection 4(3).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 4(3) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the fourth and fifth lines.
The Chair: Any discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
There's an amendment to subsection 4(4).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 4(4) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by adding the following paragraphs:
"6.1 The name and business address of any entity or organization that, to the knowledge of the consultant lobbyist, contributed (during the entity's or organization's fiscal year that precedes the filing of the return) $750 or more toward the consultant lobbyist's activities on behalf of the client. However, this paragraph does not apply with respect to contributions made by a government.
"6.2 The name and business address of any individual who, to the knowledge of the consultant lobbyist, made a contribution described in paragraph 6.1 on behalf of an entity or organization described in that paragraph."
The Chair: Any discussion? Seeing none, shall the amendment carry?
Mr Pouliot, did you have something to say?
Mr Pouliot: With respect, Chair: "$750 or more toward the consultant lobbyist's activities on behalf of the client. However, this paragraph does not apply with respect to contributions made by a government." Why is it set at $750?
Mr Grimmett: If I might, Mr Chair, the $750 threshold parallels the limit set out in the Election Finances Act.
Mr Pouliot: Ah, I knew. So in other words, you will recognize some of the people, members of the government. Is that what you are saying here? It's not coincidental, it's not just any amount; $750 is the contribution limit, is it not?
Mr Grimmett: Correct.
Mr Pouliot: I'm beginning to think, whether a lobbyist registers or not, that the name is the address. It matters so little. I was in Washington a few years back addressing just that, the attempt to elevate the most vulgar of trades to the most honourable profession. I see that it's a shorter distance than a few years back. Queen's Park is a lot closer. Why would you not in your intent say that no lobbyist should be able to make a political contribution?
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Mr Grimmett: I think it's important to note, Mr Chair, that this provision is not in the federal legislation. In fact, we are getting tougher than the feds in terms of bringing these people into the registration process. In the American example that was looked at by the ministry, their minimum was $10,000, so we are among the toughest jurisdictions you will find at seeking out and registering people involved in a lobbying process.
Mr Pouliot: Mr Chair, I don't wish to prolong this, I know your time to be precious. To parallel our legislation to that of our neighbours, the United States, suffice it to say that if you were to seal a room in the United States and you had very stringent legislation that no political contributions will ever surface, will ever penetrate the room, if the floor were made of linoleum, the donations would penetrate somehow. Any orifice that would find a way for the donations to penetrate, you're beginning to parallel that.
Our neighbours to the south -- I have a great deal of difficulty with that. Obviously you can't hide it. Even with the regulations you have to come up with an amount of money. These are the same people -- it's the perfect marriage: There's one hand that gives and one hand that takes. But it's true to form to the corporate entity to which you subscribe. I'm not going to try to penetrate the mantra. That's the way you were born and that's the way you were raised. You will live your whole life believing that this is correct, so who am I, humble citizen, to come and show you the error of your ways? Do it, but do it at your own peril.
The Chair: Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
There's another amendment to subsection 4.
Mr Grimmett: I move that paragraph 13 of subsection 4(4) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be struck out and the following substituted:
"13. Such additional information as may be prescribed with respect to the identity of a person or entity described in this section. However, the regulations cannot require the consultant lobbyist to set out on the return the names of individuals or other information that might identify individuals, if their names are not otherwise required by this subsection.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
There's another amendment, subsection 4(5).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 4(5) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the second line.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
There's an amendment to subsection 4(6).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 4(6) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the second line.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
There's an amendment to subsection 4(7).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 4(7) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the second line.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Amendment to subsection 4(8).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 4(8) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the second line.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Shall section 4 of the schedule, as amended, carry? Carried.
There's an amendment at subsection 5(1) of the schedule.
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 5(1) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out the portion before clause (a) and substituting the following:
"Duty to file return
"(1) An in-house lobbyist who is employed by a person that is not an organization or by a partnership shall file a return with the registrar."
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
There's an amendment to subsection 5(2).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 5(2) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the fourth and fifth lines.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
There's an amendment to subsection 5(3).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 5(3) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by adding the following paragraphs:
"7.1 The name and business address of any entity or organization that, to the knowledge of the in-house lobbyist, contributed (during the entity's or organization's fiscal year that precedes the filing of the return) $750 or more toward the in-house lobbyist's activities on behalf of the employer. However, this paragraph does not apply with respect to contributions made by a government.
"7.2 The name and business address of any individual who, to the knowledge of the in-house lobbyist, made a contribution described in paragraph 7.1 on behalf of an entity or organization described in that paragraph."
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
There's an amendment to subsection 5(3).
Mr Grimmett: I move that paragraph 14 of subsection 5(3) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be struck out and the following substituted:
"14. Such additional information as may be prescribed with respect to the identity of a person or entity described in this section. However, the regulations cannot require the in-house lobbyist to set out on the return the names of individuals or other information that might identify individuals, if their names are not otherwise required by this subsection."
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
An amendment to subsection 5(4).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 5(4) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the second line.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
An amendment to subsection 5(5).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 5(5) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the fourth line.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
An amendment to subsection 5(6).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 5(6) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the second line.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
An amendment to subsection 5(7).
Mr Grimmett: I move that the definition of "in-house lobbyist" in subsection 5(7) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by inserting after "individual" in the first line, "(other than one described in subsection (8))".
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
An amendment to subsection 5(8).
Mr Grimmett: I move that section 5 of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by adding the following subsection:
"Exclusions, in-house lobbyist
"(8) The following individuals are not in-house lobbyists:
"1. Officers of the assembly who are appointed on the address of the assembly and the individuals employed in the office of such officers.
"2. Public servants within the meaning of the Public Service Act.
"3. Such other classes of employees of crown agencies as may be prescribed."
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Shall section 5 of the schedule, as amended, carry? Carried.
On section 6 of the schedule, I believe there are amendments.
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 6(1) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the third and fourth lines.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Subsection 6(2), there's an amendment.
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 6(2) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the fourth and fifth lines.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
There's an amendment to subsection 6(3).
Mr Grimmett: I move that paragraph 4 of subsection 6(3) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be struck out and the following substituted:
"4. A description of the membership of the organization and such other information as may be prescribed with respect to the membership, including the names of officers or directors of the organization. However, a regulation cannot require the senior officer to set out on the return the names of other individuals who are members or to set out other information that might identify such other individuals."
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Another amendment to subsection 6(3).
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 6(3) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by adding the following paragraphs:
"5.1 The name and business address of any entity or other organization that, to the knowledge of the senior officer, contributed (during the entity's or organization's fiscal year that precedes the filing of the return) $750 or more toward the lobbying activities of the organization's in-house lobbyists. However, this paragraph does not apply with respect to contributions made by a government.
"5.2 The name and business address of any individual who, to the knowledge of the senior officer, made a contribution described in paragraph 5.1 on behalf of an entity or organization described in that paragraph."
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
An amendment to subsection 6(4).
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Mr Grimmett: I move that subsection 6(4) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by striking out "in the prescribed form and manner" in the second line.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Shall section 6 of the schedule, as amended, carry? Carried.
Shall section 7 of the schedule carry? Carried.
On section 8 of the schedule, I believe there's an amendment.
Mr Grimmett: I move that section 8 of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be struck out and the following substituted:
"Form of returns, etc.
"8(1) Returns to be filed with the registrar and information and other documents to be given to the registrar under this act must be in a form approved by the registrar.
"Manner of filing, etc.
"(2) Returns, information and other documents must be submitted to the registrar in a manner permitted by the registrar.
"Date of filing
"(3) Subject to subsection (5), the date on which the registrar receives a return is the date on which the return is considered to have been filed for the purposes of this act.
"Date on which information, etc., provided
"(4) Subject to subsection (5), the date on which the registrar receives information or a document other than a return is the date on which the information or document is considered to have been provided to the registrar for the purposes of this act.
"Deemed receipt
"(5) In the prescribed circumstances, a return, information or another document shall be deemed to have been received by the registrar on the date determined in accordance with the prescribed rules."
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Shall section 8 of the schedule, as amended, carry? Carried.
Shall section 9 of the schedule carry? Carried.
On section 10 of the schedule, there's an amendment to section 10.
Mr Grimmett: Mr Chair, I move that section 10 of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be struck out and the following substituted:
"Registrar
"10. The Integrity Commissioner is hereby appointed as registrar."
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Shall section 10 of the schedule, as amended, carry? Carried.
Shall section 11 of the schedule carry? Carried.
Shall section 12 of the schedule carry? Carried.
Shall section 13 of the schedule carry? Carried.
Mr Grimmett: I have an amendment there.
The Chair: There's a proposed new section, section 13.1.
Mr Grimmett: My mistake.
I move that the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be amended by adding the following section (after section 13):
"Removal from registry
"13.1(1) The registrar may remove a return from the registry if the individual who filed the return,
"(a) fails to confirm the information contained in it within the period required by subsection 4(6);
"(b) fails to advise the registrar of the matters required by subsection 4(7) or 5(5) within the period required by the subsection; or
"(c) fails to give the registrar any requested information relating to the return within the period specified by this act.
"Same
"(2) The Statutory Powers Procedure Act does not apply with respect to the registrar's decision to remove a return from the registry, and the registrar may remove the return without giving notice to the individual who filed the return and without holding a hearing.
"Effect of removal
"(3) When a return is removed from the registry, the individual who filed it shall be deemed, for the purposes of his or her existing and future obligations under this act, not to have filed the return."
The Chair: Any discussion?
Mr Pouliot: If I may, briefly, I'm pleased that the registrar "may," and we'll be looking for your timetable to see what really happens. Our intent is to have people be dealt with fairly, but if you "may" remove without giving notice that a document has been filed, you have to make sure that fair play is the order of the day; that a lobbyist will not use its registry, its power to operate, its right to operate because of process. I guess the word "may" will certainly allow some recourse, that it will not be removed automatically. But we will be on guard to see that people have adequate time, that if for raisons extraordinaires or force majeure they cannot respect every letter -- that it is not deemed that their right to operate as lobbyists will be removed therefore.
Mr Grimmett: If I might comment, there has been discussion about that. The discussion that I have been part of has indicated that under the federal system and under the system that's likely to be implemented here, there will be a cautionary notice given informally to the registered parties if they have neglected to update their filing.
Mr Pouliot: That's fair.
The Chair: Shall section 13.1 of the schedule carry? Carried.
Shall section 14 of the schedule carry? Carried.
On section 15 of the schedule, there's an amendment to section 15.
Mr Grimmett: I move that section 15 of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be struck out and the following substituted:
"Delegation of powers
"15(1) The registrar may delegate in writing any of his or her powers or duties under this act to a person employed in the registrar's office and may authorize him or her to delegate any of those powers or duties to another person employed in that office.
"Temporary delegation
"(2) The registrar may make a delegation that expires on or before June 30, 1999, to any person and may authorize him or her to delegate any of those powers or duties to another person.
"Conditions, etc.
"(3) A delegation may be made subject to such conditions and restrictions as the person making the delegation considers appropriate."
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Shall section 15 of the schedule, as amended, carry? Carried.
Shall section 16 of the schedule carry? Carried.
On section 17 of the schedule, there's an amendment.
Mr Grimmett: I move that subsections 17(1) to (3) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be struck out and the following substituted:
"Offence re returns, consultant lobbyists
"(1) Every individual who fails to comply with subsections 4(1), (3), (4), (5) or (8) is guilty of an offence.
"Same, in-house lobbyists
"(1.1) Every individual who fails to comply with subsections 5(1), (2), (3), (4) or (6) is guilty of an offence.
"Same, senior officers
"(1.2) Every individual who fails to comply with subsections 6(1), (2), (3) or (4) is guilty of an offence.
"False or misleading statements
"(2) Every individual who knowingly makes a false or misleading statement in a return or other document submitted to the registrar under this act is guilty of an offence.
"Conflict of interest, consultant lobbyist
"(3) Every consultant lobbyist (within the meaning of subsection 4(10)) is guilty of an offence if, in the course of lobbying a public office holder, the consultant lobbyist knowingly places the public office holder in a position of a real or potential conflict of interest as described in subsection (3.2).
"Same, in-house lobbyist
"(3.1) Every in-house lobbyist (within the meaning of subsections 5(7) or 6(5)) is guilty of an offence if, in the course of lobbying a public office holder, the in-house lobbyist knowingly places the public office holder in a position of real or potential conflict of interest as described in subsection (3.2).
"Conflict of interest
"(3.2) A public office holder is in a position of conflict of interest if he or she engages in an activity that is prohibited by sections 2, 3 or 4 or subsection 6(1) of the Members' Integrity Act, 1994, or that would be so prohibited if the public officer were a member of the Legislative Assembly.
"Penalty
"(3.3) Upon conviction of an offence under this section, an individual is liable to a fine of not more than $25,000."
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Shall section 17 of the schedule, as amended, carry? Carried.
On section 18 of the schedule, there's an amendment.
Mr Grimmett: I move that clauses 18(a), (b) and (f) of the Lobbyists Registration Act, 1998, as set out in the schedule to the bill, be struck out.
The Chair: Discussion? Shall the amendment carry? Carried.
Shall section 18 of the schedule, as amended, carry? Carried.
Shall section 19 of the schedule carry? Carried.
Shall section 20 of the schedule carry? Carried.
Shall the schedule, as amended, carry? Carried.
Shall the long title of the bill carry? Carried.
Shall Bill 69, as amended, carry? Carried.
Shall Bill 69, as amended, be reported to the House? Agreed.
That concludes the committee's consideration. The committee adjourns to the call of the Chair.
The committee adjourned at 1612.