STANDING COMMITTEE
ON
JUSTICE POLICY
COMITÉ
PERMANENT
DE LA JUSTICE
Thursday 16 December 2004 Jeudi 16 décembre 2004
The committee met at 1004 in room 228.
ELECTION OF CHAIR
The Vice-Chair (Mr Bob Delaney): Good morning, honourable members. Welcome to the standing committee on justice policy. It is my duty to call upon you to elect a Chair. Are there any nominations?
Mr Frank Klees (Oak Ridges): I nominate myself.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Klees has nominated himself.
Are there any further nominations?
Mr Kevin Daniel Flynn (Oakville): I nominate Mr Qaadri.
The Vice-Chair: Mr Qaadri, do you accept the nomination?
Mr Shafiq Qaadri (Etobicoke North): Yes, I do.
The Vice-Chair: Are there any further nominations?
Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): I appreciate the dilemma I have as to whether to support Mr Klees, whom I've known for a considerable period of time, or Mr Qaadri, whom I've known now for a year plus.
I must say I have some concerns with respect to Member Qaadri, because I note that he's greying. I know he really has expertise on male menopause. I've heard his concerns about women's menopause and how it can give rise to irrational behaviour. I'm concerned about a Chair who may be in the midst of a menopausal crisis, a Chair who might, like a beacon, be flashing on and off as the heat waves attack him and the sweat accumulates on his forehead, and then the chills that overcome the heat waves. I know it's not appropriate to delve into people's personal lives, but perhaps some assurance that Member Qaadri isn't in menopause, or if he is, that indeed menopause doesn't give rise to the irrational behaviour and outbursts that some mythology has us believe -- I really think that should be clarified before we proceed any further. That's not to say we shouldn't be asking the same of Mr Klees, I suppose, if self-identified male menopause is in fact a reality. I've seen Mr Klees have the occasional hot flash, but I'm not sure it has anything to do with hormonal impact.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you.
On the matter of Mr Klees's nomination of himself, pursuant to standing order 115(a), Mr Klees's nomination is out of order.
Mr Kormos: Chair, if I may, I appreciate that nominations, I presume, have been deemed to be closed. I would seek unanimous consent to reopen nominations.
The Vice-Chair: Is there unanimous consent to reopen nominations?
Mr Flynn: I never stand in the way of democracy.
The Vice-Chair: All right.
Mr Kormos: Chair, notwithstanding my concerns that the fix is in, that this is a done deal -- talk about myths; the myth of elected Chairs to committees, as compared to some sort of backroom deal that's concocted by, dare I say, perhaps even menopausal men, is in fact daunting.
The Vice-Chair: Do you have a further nomination?
Mr Kormos: Of course I do. There's no rule about how long the nomination can or can't be; I've got 20 minutes. I, in fact, nominate member Frank Klees to serve as Chair. Look, he's entitled to take home some extra money as much as anybody else is. After all, we know that these positions are distributed in such a way that there are precious few people in this assembly -- at last count, it was four out of 103 -- who don't earn a penny in addition to their base stipend. I suspect --
Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): Name names.
Mr Kormos: Well, I did last time. Tony Ruprecht is one of them, and the others have been juggled around. I very rudely refer to them as the losers' club, especially the ones who not only didn't have a perk position but also ended up on the regs committee. In days gone by, that was punishment. If you were not a Chair and also put on the regs committee, you were really in sad shape.
As I say, why shouldn't Mr Klees have a chance to grab the brass ring too: not Cash for Life but a little cash for the session? I nominate Frank Klees, so that this can be an open and, dare I say it in the context of my earlier comments, heated contest.
1010
The Vice-Chair: Our warm feelings of mutual respect for the member from Oak Ridges, for whom I also share a great deal of respect, notwithstanding, pursuant to standing order 115(a), Mr Klees is ineligible to accept the nomination even if proposed.
Are there any further nominations?
Mr Klees: I'd like to speak to this, if I might. I nominated myself and I thank the member from Niagara Centre for nominating me as well. I did so, really, on the basis of ensuring that there is some discussion around this table and for the purpose of the public record to demonstrate that in this place there are very few surprises and very few times when there really is any evidence of an open debate and a democratic process.
We all know around this table that who the Chair is is predetermined. It has nothing to do with the members of this committee. Frankly I feel as though I'm in one sense doing a disservice to the political process and to democracy because I'm simply here to rubber-stamp a deal that was made, an arrangement that was made about who is going to be the Chair. Mr Qaadri, no doubt, has been put forward by the Premier. Nothing against his qualifications at all, but I want it to be very clear to the public that when this committee nominates a Chair or a Vice-Chair, it has nothing to do with what we as members of this committee think, and that's unfortunate.
You, Mr Chair, were on the campaign trail and you were saying the same things about wanting to bring democracy back into government and the political process. I have yet to see one sliver of evidence that that's happening here.
This government has now been the government for more than a year. There hasn't been a change. If there's anyplace where there might be a change, it might be in a standing committee when members have an opportunity to hear witnesses, deliberate over legislation and bring forward amendments. Not one committee has been able to convince this government to accept an amendment proposed by the public that would improve legislation. I took this opportunity to make that point.
I am hopeful that perhaps Mr Qaadri, in his position as Chair of this committee, will assume the responsibility of Chair and exercise the confidence the Premier has obviously placed in him to appoint him as Chair, take that confidence back to the table with the Premier and convince the Premier that he should begin the work of democratizing this place.
Mr Kormos: In what looks to be very much an acclamation brewing here, I join Mr Klees in my hope that Member Qaadri will be more than just a flash in the pan as Chair of this committee. I know he's a person of good humour; the challenge is to see whether he's a person of good Chair.
The Vice-Chair: Thank you all for your comments. Are there any further nominations?
There being no further nominations, I declare nominations closed and Mr Shafiq Qaadri elected Chair of the committee. Congratulations.
SUBCOMMITTEE MEMBERSHIP
The Chair (Mr Shafiq Qaadri): Thank you, members of the committee, for your vote of confidence, and in particular for your ongoing flashes of insight.
I invite you to move to item 2 on the agenda, revision of the membership on the subcommittee on committee business.
Mr Bob Delaney (Mississauga West): I move that the membership of the subcommittee on committee business be revised as follows: that Mr Qaadri be Chair and appointed in place of Mr Orazietti.
The Chair: Dispense with comments? Carried. Thank you.
COMMITTEE BUSINESS
The Chair: I now invite you to move to item 3, other business.
There's a letter that's been circulated by our clerk, Mr Koch, from John O'Toole, MPP, Durham. You may read it at your leisure. It's essentially about photo identification and how those individuals who do not have an Ontario driver's licence actually identify themselves with photo ID. I'm instructed or invited by the clerk to have this matter referred to the subcommittee.
Mr Brown: So moved.
The Chair: Agreed?
Mr Klees: First of all, I want to express my appreciation to MPP John O'Toole from Durham for bringing this matter to the committee's attention. It's something that has occurred many times. It's been brought to my attention through my constituents from time to time, and I do believe it is incumbent upon us to address this. I'd like to see this committee -- albeit it's going to be up to the subcommittee to make the final determination in terms of how we deal with this.
This has been under discussion for some time, and I really would like to see us move forward and properly investigate this and present the government with some options.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr Klees. Any further comments? Any other business suggested by committee members? There being none, I declare this meeting adjourned.
The committee adjourned at 1018.
CONTENTS
Thursday 16 December 2004
Election of Chair JP-429
Subcommittee membership JP-430
Committee business JP-430
STANDING COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE POLICY
Chair / Président
Mr Shafiq Qaadri (Etobicoke North / Etobicoke-Nord L)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président
Mr Bob Delaney (Mississauga West / Mississauga-Ouest L)
Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin L)
Mr Jim Brownell (Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh L)
Mr Bob Delaney (Mississauga West / Mississauga-Ouest L)
Mr Kevin Daniel Flynn (Oakville L)
Mr Frank Klees (Oak Ridges PC)
Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre / Niagara-Centre ND)
Mr Shafiq Qaadri (Etobicoke North / Etobicoke-Nord L)
Mr Mario G. Racco (Thornhill L)
Mrs Elizabeth Witmer (Kitchener-Waterloo PC)
Clerk / Greffier
Mr Katch Koch