STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
COMITÉ PERMANENT DES ORGANISMES GOUVERNEMENTAUX
Wednesday 17 April 2002 Mercredi 17 avril 2002
INTENDED
APPOINTMENTS
MICHAEL O'NEILL
Wednesday 17 April 2002 Mercredi 17 avril 2002
The committee met at 1004 in room 151.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT
The Chair (Mr James J. Bradley): Now that we are all here I'm going to call the meeting to order. We have first of all the report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Thursday, April 11, 2002.
Mr Bob Wood (London West): I move its adoption.
The Chair: Mr Wood has moved its adoption. Is there any discussion of that subcommittee report? If not, I'll call the vote.
INTENDED APPOINTMENTS
MICHAEL O'NEILL
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Michael O'Neill, intended appointee as member, Southeastern Ontario District Health Council.
The Chair: We begin our appointments review now with Michael O'Neill, intended appointee as member, Southeastern Ontario District Health Council.
Mr O'Neill, you may come forward. As you would have been informed, you have an opportunity to make an initial statement, should you see fit. That's entirely your choice. Subsequent to that, there will be questions directed to you by members of the committee. Welcome to the committee.
Mr Michael O'Neill: Thank you. I'll tell you a little bit about myself. I'm a grade 12 student at Kingston Collegiate. As you might have noticed from my application to the Southeastern Ontario District Health Council, I have a strong desire to be involved with my community, to organize and to lead. This desire is an integral part of me. My kindergarten teacher told my mother at the very first parent-teacher interview that whenever the teacher left the room, she would return to find that I had organized all my friends and the kids in the classroom into a co-operative play activity, so that was where it started.
I've also always had the desire to help make things better for people. I gravitate toward activities which involve using my abilities, my time and my energy to assist others in a meaningful way.
The final quality of mine that I feel is pertinent to my position on the district health council is my sense of justice. I have always been bothered when I've encountered a situation where unjust or unsustainable thinking was being used.
To relate it back to my childhood again, in grade 2 my teacher told my parents that he pictured me, as an adult, sitting in a Greenpeace boat, waving my fist at an oil tanker. That's where the justice came from.
These qualities propelled me to found the respect committee at KCVI, my school. The respect committee is a group of students who work together to promote the ideas of social justice, equality and sustainability within the walls of our school.
Since I wrote my application to the district health council, the respect committee has organized a number of successful campaigns. The first one was the Good Neighbours fundraising campaign. As part of the campaign, we educated the entire school on poverty issues in the Kingston area. We managed to get a one-hour, entire-school assembly to which we brought in poverty workers in Kingston and our city councillor. Our city councillor talked about the effect of globalization on poverty, and the poverty workers from the North Kingston Community Health Centre and our local Low Income Needs Coalition gave the students an idea of what poverty was like in Kingston. After the assembly we mobilized students to fundraise for the health centre. We overshot our fundraising goal by $1,000 and raised four grand.
The second major initiative of the respect committee was Pride Week which, as it happens, is this week. The purpose of Pride Week is to foster a positive relationship between the homosexual and heterosexual communities within our school. The other purpose is to make life easier for homosexual students who have not yet come out within the school. It's a lot easier to be straight than to be gay in high school.
That is about all I'll say about the respect committee.
I've also been involved with many Queen's student groups, talking about and forming ideas on education accessibility. I'm sure you all know there was a lot of activity in February when Queen's University asked to have its tuition deregulated. We ran a campaign in Kingston to support regulated tuition.
That's pretty much all I'm going to say.
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The Chair: Thank you very much. We commence the questioning, and in this case it's the turn of the New Democratic Party, Mr Martin.
Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I'm very impressed with, at your age, the level of involvement that you have in your community and wondering, out of all of that work that you do, why at this time you think the district health council is a place where you'd like to put some energy and time, and what you see as the major challenges there.
Mr O'Neill: All of my interests, whether it's poverty issues or positive gay-straight relations or justice, have an effect on health and the level of health within our community. So instead of just working to support one part of my community, I thought that if I were to be on the council (a) I would have the opportunity to learn from a bunch of people who know about the issues I'm concerned about and (b) I would be able to contribute my ideas of how the broader determinants of health could be shaped to bring about a higher level of health in the community.
I'm just getting on the council; I've only been to three meetings. I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to go about doing this.
Mr Martin: What do you see as the major priorities in your district?
Mr O'Neill: Aside from the normal stuff that health councils do, like planning long-term care and figuring out how many long-term-care beds we need, I see creating sustainable communities as being a major need for the future. I think one of the reasons that I was supported in my application for the DHC by the council was that they're looking for the perspective of somebody who's going to be around after most of the people on the council are gone. The average age of a district health council member is 58, and so I guess I see that instead of thinking --
Interjection.
Mr O'Neill: Sorry, I'm digressing. I guess sustainability -- planning sustainable communities and supporting communities so that they may be sustainable -- is the most important thing that is affecting our health right now.
Mr Martin: I suppose that would be something that would be of concern to young people in that you inherit the communities that, for the most part, we who average age 58 right now seem to run and control and regulate.
Are there any other issues that as a young person in particular -- we hear a lot these days, particularly in my own community, around the question of how the health care works or doesn't work for our aging population. Is there anything specific and particular that you've gathered in your association with your peers that is of real concern in the Kingston area with regard to the health system?
Mr O'Neill: A lot of people are wondering about how we're going to deal with the baby boomers as they age. Even young people are wondering that. It seems from the media that our health system is already straining to provide people with the level of health care we have, and as people age they're going to need to use the health system more. We're concerned about how we can do that without breaking the backs of taxpayers or without letting people down who need the health care system.
People my age are also worried about the level of youth suicide. It's climbing. We're worried about the level of stress that comes from school and the effect on people who are not -- a lot of people feel that the bar is being set too high in school and other areas of student life and that because of that, the students' level of health is suffering. That's a major concern.
Mr Martin: Have you been following at all the Romanow commission that has been traveling the country? What would your comments be on what is going on there? I know that this morning there was a report that Mr Romanow was speaking to a group of chamber of commerce people in the Halifax area and suggested that maybe we need to be looking at some portion of the health care system in the private sector or that is in some way connected to the private sector. What are the issues coming out of that that would be of concern to you? Have you been watching?
Mr O'Neill: I haven't been paying that close attention to the Romanow commission, but as for bringing more private control into health care, I guess my fear and the fear of many of my peers is that as health care gets privatized, we lose control over the quality and direction of health care. A lot of people are afraid of the profit motive compromising the quality of our health care. That is not to say that myself and my peers have completely shut our minds to private involvement in health care. We just feel that the top priority should be providing quality health care with long-term thinking and that, were private organizations, private businesses, to get involved, they must be very well regulated.
Mr Martin: I note a letter of support for your nomination and application from the chair of the local district health council. He speaks of functions that the council has organized over the last while, two major conferences in particular. What involvement did you have in those particular events?
Mr O'Neill: I've had no involvement as of yet. Like I said, I've been to three meetings. They had a seminar where they got a lot of young people involved who were talking about health care, a lot of community involvement in talking about health care. I've only heard about it at the meetings. I can't speak too much about it.
Mr Martin: OK. Maybe you could talk to us a bit about how you found out about this appointment, this opportunity. And maybe another question is, do you have any political connections or activity in your community?
Mr O'Neill: I heard that they were looking for a young person for the health council from -- there's a bit of a story. I work at a summer camp and I lead kids through Algonquin Park, canoeing, all summer. One of the children on the trip talked to me a lot about his dad. His dad seemed like an interesting guy, and I guess his dad thought that I was an interesting guy because he told me there was a position open on the health council and that I might be interested, because of my views on the world and my community involvement, in applying. He said there would be a lot of opportunities to learn and to contribute. He is on the district health council. I was not interviewed by him, though, for my recommendation. I was interviewed by the chair of the health council, Lloyd Churchill, and another member of the council, Paul Adamthwaite. They were the ones who saw my resumé and they were the ones who recommended me for my order in council. So that's how I heard about it.
I don't hold membership in any political party. That could change soon; I just turned 18. I hate to describe myself as left or right, because it kind of denies the idea that we can consider all sides of a situation and look at things from different points of view, but I'm probably closer to being an NDP or a Green Party member.
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The Chair: Thank you very much. We now go to the government members.
Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex): I'd like to ask a few questions and make some comments. Michael, it's quite refreshing to see you here this morning. Welcome to the committee. It's particularly gratifying, from my point of view, to see a young person. I take particular notice of your concern with the average age, for instance, on the district health council. Now, 50 is really fairly young, if you're looking at it from my position. It's even better to see the interest and concern that you've demonstrated by your actions so far. So I congratulate not only you for applying to the district health council, but I congratulate them for seeing the worthiness of your application and the attributes that you bring.
I'm particularly interested in the term "leadership," because you have demonstrated that, and you commented on that in your introduction. Leadership is an elusive ability when you try to define it. I think, overall, it's demonstrated by the works that it does. By that, the demonstration you've shown so far leads me to think that the community of Kingston, with your help, is in good hands.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Any others?
Mr Wood: We'll waive the balance of our time.
The Chair: Thank you very much. We now move to the official opposition.
Mrs Leona Dombrowsky (Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington): Good morning, Mr O'Neill. It's indeed good to have you here this morning. I certainly appreciated the time you've taken to prepare your remarks. It certainly has helped me understand a little bit more about you. There were some comments that you made, though, that I've taken note about and maybe would ask you to expand upon.
First of all, an observation on my part: it would appear that you obviously have an agenda of your own in looking to have a role on the district health council. The district health council that you are intended to be a part of considers health issues for my riding. I have to tell you that, as a representative, health issues are something I hear a great deal about. You've indicated this morning that you have attended three meetings. You've also had, I'm sure, an opportunity to read the same background information that we've been provided around your appointment.
I was wondering if you could share this morning with the members of the committee your understanding of some of the more serious health issues that face people who live within the boundary of the Southeastern Ontario District Health Council, some of the more serious health issues that you're going to have some responsibility to consider and provide some direction and recommendation around in your role as an adviser to the ministry and the Minister of Health.
Mr O'Neill: Mental health, right now, is one of the issues that will become more and more important on my time at the district health council. As I mentioned, youth suicide and depression are becoming more and more of a problem and they need more attention. I can't say which is going to be the most important health issue, but --
Mrs Dombrowsky: Maybe I could just add that in my office I'm hearing from a lot of people who live within the boundaries of your district health council who can't get a doctor, families who can't access family doctors. This, of course, is especially problematic when individuals have some chronic health conditions like high blood pressure or diabetes or asthma, where they need to see a doctor on a regular basis for medication and so on and they're not able to access family physicians. Do you have any comment on that? Are you aware that, even in the Kingston area, where you have a teaching hospital, this is a serious problem?
Mr O'Neill: Ms Dombrowsky, thank you for bringing that up. In Kingston we have three hospitals. To get a general practitioner, you're generally on a waiting list for three months or longer. It's incredibly difficult to get a doctor in Kingston and, apparently, in other parts of Ontario. I can only suppose why this is; I don't know. Maybe it's the medical schools; maybe it's too hard for people who would stay in Ontario after they graduate to get into medical school. It is a problem and it needs to be addressed.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Is it fair to assume that it's something you would like to see aggressively addressed?
Mr O'Neill: I would, yes.
Mrs Dombrowsky: OK. I think my colleague Mr Gravelle has a comment, and then Mr Gerretsen.
Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North): Good morning, Mr O'Neill, and welcome. I truly think you will be adding a great deal to the health council with your appointment. I'm very pleased that, certainly in terms of the comments you made at the beginning, you're making the very important link between poverty and health care and the quality of health. I think that's something that needs to be made, and I hope you have an opportunity, when you're on the council formally, to continue to make those points.
I did want to ask you one thing in terms of your reference a couple of times to the young people in high school and the greater pressures, the issue of suicide, your support for Pride Week and all those issues. Do you think it's much worse? You're there. We're hearing about bullying and some very tragic situations related to that across the country. Do you think it's a lot worse and do you think some of the things that you can bring forward as a member of the health council can make a difference?
Mr O'Neill: I don't know if it's a lot worse than it used to be. My school is not really an urban school; Kingston is not Toronto. Bullying at my school is not a problem. I come from a pretty privileged area of town; it's sort of the professor district around Queen's. It's a nice area.
Mr Gravelle: But obviously it concerns you.
Mr O'Neill: Bullying concerns me. It is a problem. I think that, especially with the implementation of the new curriculum, the stress level of young students has risen because classes are more and more challenging. It's more difficult to get the marks you need for university. A girl at my school committed suicide last month, and that really started me thinking about it. There is an immense amount of pressure on students, but I can't say whether it's more than it used to be 20 years ago.
Mr Gravelle: I hope that you bring your concerns to the council. I think you can add a great deal to it.
Mr O'Neill: I will.
Mr Gravelle: I'll pass it on to Mr Gerretsen.
Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands): Just a very quick comment, first of all. I think KCVI is the oldest high school in Ontario, actually. It's a school that everyone in the Kingston area is extremely proud of. One of my sons attended there, as a matter of fact, not too long ago.
Could you tell me a little bit about the respect committee? I can remember when it was quite active about two or three years ago in dealing with the youth homelessness problem. Is that when you first got involved with it?
Mr O'Neill: I got involved with it then, when I was in grade 10. The reason I said I founded it was because it died last year, after the teachers had their labour action. I got involved then. I was involved with Pride Week and the youth shelter fundraiser.
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The group has a very diverse range of interests. We have a branch -- I guess you could call it a subcommittee -- that focuses completely on the environment and tries to reduce the amount of waste that our school produces. We have a group of people who are very concerned with trade and Canada's trade laws. Many people are worried about the labour standards in the countries that we trade with.
We try to be a positive pressure group rather than a protest group, because I think you get better results that way. We try to educate. For instance, this week we are having a letter-writing campaign for Mark Hall, the student who has been disallowed from attending his prom with his boyfriend. We try to give students the opportunity to be involved. I've been involved politically and I've been active for a long time, but most people in high school are just getting their toes wet. It gives students an opportunity to taste the feeling of being a citizen, of being concerned about their community.
I don't know if I've answered your question.
Mr Gerretsen: Thank you very much. You're certainly a great credit to that committee and to your school community.
The Chair: Any further questions? There is one minute left. I just want to ask a technical question, if members of the committee will allow it. It has nothing to do with politics.
Mr Wood: We will be the judge of that.
The Chair: There used to be a program called Student Action for Recycling. You would have blue boxes or bins in schools. I notice in some schools that has fallen by the wayside a bit. In my own community, for instance, I look for them when I go into a high school and I don't see them the way I used to. Do you still have that?
Mr O'Neill: At KCVI we have that. We have a fabulous biology teacher who started an environment club a long time ago, and they had bins installed all around the school. Since they're permanent fixtures, it really doesn't take any maintenance. Part of the routine of the custodial staff is to empty the appropriate bins.
Mr Gravelle: What's the teacher's name?
Mr O'Neill: Matt Saunders.
The Chair: I thank the committee for allowing that. I was just curious about that. It would be nice to see that in all the schools. I think all of us would support seeing that in all the schools. I notice that it seems to have abated in some schools and it is available in other schools. Thank you for that answer.
Thank you, Mr O'Neill, for appearing before the committee. You may now step down.
BARBARA HERRON
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Barbara Herron, intended appointee as member, council of the College of Midwives of Ontario.
The Chair: Our next intended appointee is Barbara Herron, who is an intended appointee as member, council of the College of Midwives of Ontario. Welcome to the committee, Ms Herron. As you would know, you have an opportunity to make an initial statement, if you see fit, and subsequent to that the questioning will come from the members of the committee. We'll be commencing with the government members in this particular case.
Ms Barbara Herron: Thank you for allowing me to appear before you and perhaps allay some of your questions about me with respect to my intended appointment to the council of the College of Midwives of Ontario.
I have been a consumer of health care in this province for over 60 years. I have raised four children, who are now adults, and I have five grandchildren. So I'm well aware of the problems that exist and the care that is available to pregnant women in this province. In fact, our last experience was less than a month ago.
My volunteering started at the age of 15 as a volunteer in my church. It moved through the Guiding movement, obviously sporadically during the time I was raising my children. I went back to sitting on boards etc when we moved to the city of Brantford and I had more time available.
I have lived in Brantford for almost 28 years and have been actively involved in the arts council and in the social development council. I have been involved in fundraising for the Shriners hospitals and have had numerous other activities, obviously when time has permitted from my family and from my position at the university.
My particular interest in midwifery deals with the qualifications of midwives and the accountability of midwives to the consumer. Obviously, if you've read my CV, you can see I have a particular interest in the continuing education of midwives so they can improve their skills.
I will admit right now that I am a member of a political party. I'm a member of the Conservative Party of Ontario and of Canada. I know you're going to ask me, so I have admitted it.
I am now open to any questions you may have for me.
The Chair: I think you took away Mr Johnson's question, though.
Mr Johnson: I was just going to comment that you had overcome a tremendous barrier by that pronouncement.
Barbara, I just have one question, really, and that is a very public case very recently of a midwife who -- first of all, I wanted to comment that for anybody who has a doctor, and Leona has commented that there are quite a few who don't, but in every general practitioner's office I have ever been in, his certificate says that he is a doctor and a midwife. I wanted to comment on that because there are a lot of people who don't know that that is part of every doctor's training as well.
The case that I wanted to ask about, and it's been in the news very recently, is a tragic case, I assume, from what I read, about a practitioner who didn't keep up qualifications or didn't follow the guidelines, that sort of thing. I wondered how you feel, as a potential member of the college, in addressing that type of situation.
Ms Herron: Knowing that I was coming here today and hearing that on the news last Thursday, as I live in the Kitchener area, I went out first thing Friday morning and got a copy of the Kitchener-Waterloo Record. There was extensive information there on the case in point. From what I read -- now, that doesn't mean I was privy to all of the information that the particular committee of the council was privy to -- I agreed with the council's recommendation. As I say, I'm not privy to all of the information.
I do believe that if one is going to call oneself a professional, one has to be accountable and one has to behave in a manner that brings credit not only to oneself but to one's profession. There were big gaps there that I questioned when I read the two articles in the newspaper.
Mr Johnson: Just a comment, which has absolutely nothing to do with that case. I believe St Jacobs -- I live in Listowel, which is just up the road from Waterloo, and I also take the Record. That's why I'm aware of it. St Jacobs has one of the few free-standing, separated midwifery clinics that I know of in Ontario, and I think part of that is because of the Amish and Mennonite community that it serves.
Ms Herron: Probably.
Mr Johnson: Those are all the questions I have.
The Chair: Any other questions? We now move to the official opposition.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Thank you very much, Mrs Herron, for attending this morning. You have assisted us greatly by indicating that you are politically affiliated. I'd like to ask you if you've worked on political campaigns. Have you had any particular role? Have you ever been a candidate?
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Ms Herron: I have never been a candidate. In the last three campaigns I worked on, I worked as the official agent or the CFO, so I've always been on the finance side.
Mrs Dombrowsky: For whose campaign?
Ms Herron: I worked on two federal campaigns for the Conservative Party and I worked on the last provincial campaign for Alayne Sokoloski as her CFO.
Mrs Dombrowsky: As her CFO.
Ms Herron: Yes.
Mrs Dombrowsky: I am curious to understand. Certainly, I can see from your curriculum vitae that you are very involved in your community. However, I don't see anything that indicates you've had a particular interest in a health discipline. I am just curious to understand how it is you've come to find yourself as a intended appointee to the college of midwifery. How has that happened?
Ms Herron: I have a friend who is a member of the council of the College of Massage Therapists of Ontario. She and I were away for a weekend together and we got to talking about the work that she does as a member of that council. I said, "That sounds really interesting. Now that I've got some more time on my hands, I'd kind of like to get involved in that kind of thing and move outside my community and maybe have a little more say and a little more input into things that happen on a wider basis." Through a contact in the minister's office, I heard that this appointment was coming up and sent in my CV to the minister's office.
Mrs Dombrowsky: So you contacted the Minister of Health?
Ms Herron: I heard from a contact in his office that this position would be coming up and so applied to him. I sent my CV to him, yes.
Mrs Dombrowsky: I think it's very important for the people of Ontario to understand how one gains access to these appointments. It's for that reason that I've asked you to describe this, because I know there are many people in the province who would be interested in serving in a similar role and I'm sure what you would describe here as the process or perhaps even a lack of process, but just the avenues that one might pursue in order to participate in this kind of role. I think it's a significant role and a very important role as midwifery becomes more recognized in the province. I too am a mother of four, and certainly when I was having my children, as I can recall, the option of using the services of a midwife was never even presented to me. I share that with you with the hope that perhaps the college might look for ways to raise the profile of the profession within the province. I also believe that, as we as legislators look for better ways to administer health care in the province and we look at primary care reform, the profession of midwifery becomes more a part of that equation in terms of providing health services. I guess that's a little bit of a sermon on my part for you, as you will be appointed to this committee.
I believe my colleague has some comments or questions as well.
Mr Gerretsen: Good morning. I think the fact that you belong to a political party is a good thing, because more people should get active in politics. Obviously, I hope it's the party I represent, but there are other parties out there. There are good people and bad people in everything, so I for one certainly don't hold it against you in any way whatsoever.
Ms Herron: Thank you.
Mr Gerretsen: Let me ask you this. I noted that over the last number of years there have been a great number of nurses who have become qualified as midwives, yet it seems to me from what I hear that from a funding viewpoint there's a tremendous lack of funding. In fact, I believe, and I could be corrected on the numbers, that probably only about a tenth -- or let's say up to a fifth -- of those individuals who are qualified midwives in Ontario are actually employed as such.
Do you view it as part of your role on the college to in effect get after the government to utilize the people who are qualified to be midwives and to act in that capacity, to provide funding for them? I can think of at least three or four areas in eastern Ontario where there is a tremendous shortage of doctors, particularly in the rural areas, and where the funding of a midwife would be tremendously advantageous. Do you feel that is part of your role?
Ms Herron: I don't know whether it's part of my role, but I certainly do agree with you. I agree that there needs to be more access to affordable alternatives in health care, midwifery being one of those more affordable alternatives. I truly believe we need to have a greater degree of communication, or at least better communication, between midwives and traditional obstetrical care, particularly when I see that all of my children were delivered by general practitioners. That's not the case any more. General practitioners aren't delivering babies, and so we're using the services of highly trained specialists solely for delivering babies. These men and women are burnt out. They're leaving us because there's just no one to fill in. I think what we need is to make a greater commitment to the use of the more affordable alternatives.
Mr Gerretsen: In the various primary care restructuring proposals that are out there whereby, in effect, health care professionals would be contained within a family health network or a clinic where you would have doctors, midwives, nurse practitioners, dieticians etc working as a group, do you see midwives being a part of that kind of arrangement?
Ms Herron: If that kind of arrangement were to exist, yes.
Mr Gerretsen: Do you support those new arrangements?
Ms Herron: I haven't really given that a great deal of thought, but when you bring it to mind, yes, I think that is the way that health care, to be affordable, is going to have to go to maintain the level of quality of care that we want in this province.
Mr Gerretsen: Thank you.
The Chair: We go to the New Democratic Party now.
Mr Martin: Thanks for coming this morning. My first question is around what motivated you to seek this appointment. I know you said you were talking with a friend who was on a board.
Ms Herron: Who sits on one of the colleges.
Mr Martin: Do you have any background in midwifery, anything that would qualify you or give us some sense of what you bring to this position?
Ms Herron: Not anything to do with midwifery, other than delivering four children. I have not been in contact with or had anything to do with midwives. I have friends whose daughters have used them. They weren't available to me when my children were born, the youngest of them being 30. That just wasn't something one did over 30 years ago. My daughters have both chosen to have their children using obstetricians. Probably because of problems in their first delivery, they continued to use obstetricians.
My concern here has been not that I know anything particularly to do with midwifery from a level of expertise, if that's what you're getting at, but I feel that I have some knowledge of the expectations of obstetrical care, and I believe midwives can provide that. But expertise-wise, no, I've never delivered a baby.
Mr Martin: What would you want to contribute or accomplish by way of this appointment? What would be the motivation behind your wanting to participate in this?
Ms Herron: As a professional in a totally irrelevant field, I know that the requirements for a good professional involve both competence and integrity. Therefore, I would want to see that in fact the standards that were set by the college maintained a level of competence and that members of the college lived up to that level of expectation and lived up to the professional code of ethics that was set before them. That's my major concern: delivering good quality health care to the women of Ontario.
Mr Martin: Do you see that as a problem right now?
Ms Herron: I don't think I see it as a problem right now. However, in any profession there's always room for a problem to exist. Although you can set down this level of standards of care, you can have all of that lined out and you can have all of the rules of professional ethics laid out, it very often gives us a degree of belief that in fact we've covered all the bases, when we haven't.
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Mr Martin: What would you see as the major challenges facing midwifery in the province at the moment?
Ms Herron: I believe it's the removal of the artificial barriers to practice, and the lack of accessibility in some cases to the full use of hospital facilities. The lack of communication very often exists between midwives and other obstetrical caregivers, and sometimes I wonder if that's kind of protectionist on the part of other caregivers, that "We have our own little bailiwick and we don't want anybody to intrude upon it." I wonder if that is part of the problem with the lack of communication that has appeared to exist in some of the cases I've read up on.
Mr Martin: Any thoughts on how you might resolve some of those issues? You're certainly right; from what I understand from being in contact with midwives in my own community and reading up on some of the challenges, you've certainly identified a few. Any thoughts on how you might resolve some of those or what you might bring to the discussion that would be helpful in terms of resolution?
Ms Herron: I don't know. I think you've stumped me on that one. I haven't really thought beyond what I feel about the college and where I think it needs to go. How I might contribute to that? Perhaps from my own experience in working with people in various organizations, my own experience as a business administrator, where I worked in an organization and was the only person who didn't have a degree in social work, other than the secretaries who worked for me. It was a real challenge, sometimes, to communicate with those people. I think I developed a line of communication with them that they and I would agree worked to both of our benefits; it was just that we came from totally different sides of the map in terms of our background and our way of approaching people.
Mr Martin: You mentioned earlier that one of the major motivations behind enhancing the potential for midwives to participate in the health care system was cost, finding more cost-effective ways of delivering service. Are there other reasons for having midwives in the system besides that issue?
Ms Herron: I think in many cases they provide, I shouldn't say "better," but maybe a more consistent continuity of care. When one goes to a midwifery clinic or a group of midwives, a woman has a primary caregiver, but she becomes acquainted with the two to four midwives who are involved in that particular practice. When a woman uses an obstetrician, very often her baby is delivered by someone she has never met before because her obstetrician doesn't happen to be on duty that day. So there's a greater degree of continuity of care, and I think women need to have that option available to them.
The Chair: That completes the questioning. You may step down, Ms Herron. Thank you very much.
ELLEN GREENWOOD
Review of intended appointment, selected by third party: Ellen Greenwood, intended appointee as member, council of the College of Nurses of Ontario.
The Chair: Our next intended appointee is Ellen Greenwood, intended appointee as member, council of the College of Nurses of Ontario. Welcome, Ms Greenwood, to our committee. As you are aware, you have the opportunity to make an initial statement, should you see fit, and subsequent to that the questioning will come from members of the committee. I think we'll be starting with the official opposition when we start those questions.
Ms Ellen Greenwood: Thank you very much, Mr Chair and members of the committee. It is an honour to be considered for a position, as a public member, on the council of the College of Nurses of Ontario. I have had the opportunity to meet several of you in my role as advocate for the environment industry sector. That sector, which at its best provides the services and technologies to ensure environmental quality and to provide environmental protection, has many similarities to the important role of health care to the public.
I am an urban planner by profession, with over 20 years of experience in many different matters. My recent focus, as I mentioned, has been on the environment, which I personally consider, along with health care, one of the main priorities for the public today.
Before becoming a private consultant, I worked for many years at the city of Toronto as a planner. Subsequently, in my role as waterfront information coordinator, I worked closely with Art Eggleton and other members of city council, including Marilyn Churley. I've had the privilege to work very closely with members of the government and members of the public, and I believe I have developed a consensus-related approach and collaboration that has been highly successful. As an urban planner, I have learned the skills of gathering and evaluating information and of working with people of many disciplines. These skills, I hope and believe, would be of assistance to the council.
I have three children, all boys, and spend a good portion of my life running between hockey arenas and baseball diamonds. Frankly, all these years later, I'm still not sure what a lot of it is about. But between that and work, I have been very involved in community affairs. I am presently chair of my local ratepayers' group in Toronto. I am also very involved in the Ontario environment industry sector, sit on their board of directors and am chair of their advocacy committee.
In my professional life now, I work as a consultant, with clients in both the public and private sectors; as I said, primarily in the environmental sector but not entirely. It's quite a busy life, as is the case for many of us today, but it is important to be engaged in the activities of the community and this province.
I was born and raised in Ontario, and my father, a self-made man, instilled in me the need to participate in community life and to contribute to the society which has been so good to us. Health care and the significant role of nurses in its delivery is something that touches all of us at one time or another: when my children were born, as my father aged and passed away, and most recently in dealing with my mother, who has Alzheimer's. It's easy to care about the quality of health care in this province.
It is a privilege to be here today and to be considered for this important position. I hope I have the opportunity to serve the public and the province at the college, and I look forward to your questions.
The Chair: Thank you very much. We commence our questioning with the official opposition.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Good morning, Ms Greenwood. First of all, I would like to commend you for all of your very fine efforts with regard to the environment. I think that is such an important area, and we certainly need more people like you who are prepared to volunteer their energy, resources and interest in that particular area. So I want to commend you for that. My husband and I have four children, three of whom are boys, so I can certainly appreciate when you relate your experiences of going from arena to arena and ball field to ball field, what that kind of life is like. It really is a lot of fun.
I certainly have been impressed by your resumé, but I must say I am curious. While your concluding comments did make some reference to why you might be interested in participating in a professional college that deals with a health profession, I guess I'm curious about how you have actually come to be here today. Given that you are a planner and you really don't have any life experience that relates to that particular area professionally, how is it that you have come to be an intended appointee for the College of Nurses today?
Ms Greenwood: As I said, in my experience as an advocate for the environmental sector, I have worked with many people in the province, in the Legislature. At one point several months ago, it was raised to me that my skills could be very useful in participating in the public life of the province. At that point in time, I was thinking more of the OMB and of the Environmental Assessment Board. The reality is that both of those could create conflicts of interest with my professional life, and that's part of it.
The other thing is, knowing my interest in health, which is very related to environment, and the fact that some of us who are advocating on behalf of the environment want much closer links between the discussion on the environment and on health because they are so interrelated, I was approached by someone, I believe, in the Ministry of Health on whether I would be interested in this particular appointment. On reflection, I thought it was a very appropriate approach for me, and I hope you will agree.
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Mrs Dombrowsky: You were contacted by people within the Ministry of Health. Are you a member of the Conservative Party?
Ms Greenwood: I recently became a member of the Conservative Party.
Mrs Dombrowsky: I'm always curious how people at the ministry would have names of individuals like you, and what we've come to understand is that very regularly they get those names because --
Ms Greenwood: If I may add, I think the contact to me may have been through my work and the fact that I have spent some time here as an environmental professional, as opposed to any political allegiance.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Thank you.
Mr Gravelle: Good morning, Ms Greenwood. Certainly one of the issues the college deals with is quality assurance and maintaining standards. But I think it's fair to say that nurses, particularly in the hospital setting, are under an extraordinary amount of pressure these days, perhaps particularly in the last five to seven years.
I think it could be argued that maintaining those standards that are set out can be difficult if there is a heavy workload, if there is not an appropriate staffing ratio. Almost all of us tend to think of nurses as being the backbone of the hospital system. Are you conscious of the pressures and the demands that are on nurses? Again, I don't want to simply focus on the hospital setting, but I think it's a place where we tend to be more conscious of it. Certainly it's true in other areas where nurses are needed as well.
I guess my question ultimately is, do you think the college should play an even greater role in advising the minister of some of these concerns and alerting the ministry to some of these concerns? Certainly I can speak in terms of the situation in Thunder Bay, where I'm from, in terms of the hospital there. The pressures are enormous, and I think there needs to be some way to help them.
We also know that this particular government laid off 10,000 nurses early in their term as a result of cutbacks to hospitals. These pressures have all added extraordinary responsibilities and burdens on the nursing profession, and I just want to know what role you think the college should play in this and whether they should play a more aggressive role.
Ms Greenwood: Without being involved and without being presumptuous, because I understand that the role of the council is set out in the legislation, I think that if you have a group of people who are familiar with a particular situation -- in this case, obviously the college has a number of registered nurses and registered practical nurses as well as members of the public -- they can be a very good resource to the government to advise them on matters. But again, without being involved in it, I don't want to be presumptuous and enter a territory that is beyond the scope of their responsibilities. However, as I said, it seems to me this would be a very good resource to give advice to the government.
Mr Gravelle: The college clearly does have an extraordinarily important role to play in this. Our notes tell us there was an audit of about 2,500 RNs and RNAs that was done by the college to see if they were meeting the standards, which is obviously important, but also what practices were impacting on that ability. Again, with the pressures of the cutbacks in our hospital system in terms of the nurses who were laid off, the fact that many of them are put under a great deal of pressure as well as being called in for part-time work, I'm curious about your thoughts on whether or not the college should play a stronger role.
I think it's important to get your thoughts on it, because it seems to me that is a very important role the college plays. As a public member, I don't think one expects you to have the expertise of someone who is in the profession, but clearly it's important to have your thoughts on whether this is something we should be concerned about and whether the college should perhaps be even more actively involved in recognizing some of these challenges and trying to make some recommendations. I believe they have made a recommendation that in extraordinary situations where certain environments in hospitals are particularly challenged by these staffing problems, they should be alerting the public or at least alerting the ministry.
Are you familiar with the role the college has played in this, and again I ask whether you think this should be an area that is even stepped up in concern?
Ms Greenwood: Again, I'd just like to be careful in my response, because I'm not familiar with the day-to-day dealings of the college. But it does seem to me an important role, when you have a group of resources representing both nurses and the public, that they do act and provide advice. I don't know of other groups that would probably be in such a good position with the integration of discussion with the nursing population and again representing the public. I think it's an important role. We all know that health care is under stress, and I think any legitimate advice that comes forward should be welcomed.
Mr Gravelle: Do you think the college has a role to play in terms of just encouraging people to enter the nursing profession? Because of the challenges, particularly in the last seven years, I think the average age of nurses in the profession is one where many of them are near retirement age. I certainly know a lot of nurses personally who have retired and come back because the need is there, much like we hear about doctors. I just want to know whether you think the college can play a role in encouraging people to enter the profession.
Ms Greenwood: I would hope so. Again, the conditions nurses work under create a lot of stress in the workplace. To the degree that the college is the regulatory body over that, I do believe they should encourage conditions and create a situation where nursing is a profession people want to enter and that the stresses are dealt with to the degree possible. I think it's important. I do agree.
Mr Gravelle: Mr Chairman, how much time do we have left? I want one quick question.
The Chair: You have a minute left.
Mr Gravelle: I'd better give it to Mr Gerretsen, then, to give him an opportunity.
Mr Gerretsen: I'm just curious. As I mentioned before when we were interviewing the other witness, people should belong to political parties. It makes the process grow and it's very important to the system. But why did you join the Conservative Party when you're an environmentalist? Was it in the hope of trying to turn the government around, so they would put back the 40% in funding they cut? Why did you join the Conservative Party if you're really interested in the environment? Or is it because you had a number of contracts with the government?
Ms Greenwood: No. As a matter of fact, I have more contracts with the federal government and I actually have no contracts with the provincial government.
Mr Gerretsen: You realize this is being televised. They're watching this in Ottawa right now. But can you answer my first question?
Ms Greenwood: I have to say that as someone who works with all parties, I don't normally -- actually, I have been involved with many different parties and many different members of different parties over the years. I believe that the opportunity to be involved in the Tory party and to help select the new Premier for this province was very important.
Mr Gerretsen: Did you win? Were you on the winning side?
Ms Greenwood: Not really. With my environmental background, I had other -- but I am very pleased to work with this government. I have had very good response in working with this government on environmental matters, and hopefully will do more in the future, with whomever.
The Chair: That concludes the questions, thank goodness. We now move to the third party.
Mr Martin: Following up on that, I guess I find it interesting, given your resumé and your consulting on behalf of a number of fairly substantial corporations where issues of the environment and projects moving forward were concerned, that you would have also chosen to belong to the Conservative Party, given that at the moment they are the government in Ontario and the fact that you are probably before a number of boards controlled by them to get permissions etc. Does this in any way present to you as a conflict of interest or a potential conflict of interest?
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Ms Greenwood: In my professional life, as I mentioned earlier, I believe it's important to work with all parties and all people to try and achieve ends that are important for the public. As an urban planner I've been lucky because so much of my work has allowed me to be engaged in those types of activities.
There have been a number of initiatives that have come forward from this government that have been extremely good for the environment, including most recently some of the waste matters, and so it has been possible for me to be involved in that way.
Mr Martin: Because if you look at some of the work that you do -- it says here, "consulting firm which specializes in government relations, communications, strategic advice and business development for clients," "special adviser, corporate and government affairs," "vice president, communications and government relations" -- the whole slant of your professional life seems to be directed to convincing government that the people who employ you, who pay your wages, have in fact a project that should be approved, never mind the sort of environmental concerns that may go along with that. I guess I'm just wondering what pressure would have been there for you to have joined the Tory party at this particular point in time, given the very clear connection that is there in terms of approvals. I'm concerned about the public interest here.
Ms Greenwood: First of all, I'd like to clarify the fact that one of the reasons why I have stayed a private consultant is it has given me the opportunity -- between running around with my children -- to work with clients that are strong environmentally. I do care about the quality of my work and I do care about my reputation. I do not take clients when they do not have sound projects -- environmentally, scientifically backed projects. I just want to clarify that, because it's very important to me.
Now, I'm sorry, the actual question to respond to was?
Mr Martin: I guess what I'm trying to determine here is whether you can act independently as a member of the College of Nurses to take into account the public interest when you so obviously act on behalf of some pretty major corporations in your professional life and have, in an obvious way by joining the Tory party, indicated clearly your capacity to take advantage of that connection to perhaps further the interests of your employer.
Ms Greenwood: Again, those of you who have dealt with me, and of course some of you know me a little bit, know that -- and again, I'd like to say that my reputation is one of being even-handed, non-partisan in my work. I like to think of myself as a professional. I have absolutely no doubt in saying to you now that I would give my best professional advice, non-partisan, to make sure that the public interests are protected.
Mr Martin: OK. I suppose I can take that from you at face value, except that I'm beginning to understand more and more, as time goes on and I speak to people, how this government works. I was at a meeting two weeks ago in Blind River and a very prominent member of a local council, who was looking for some support in terms of some of the water issues facing them, approached a minister who should have been able to help that person in that effort, and the first question the person was asked was, "Do you have a card?" She thought the person meant, "Do you have a business card?" In fact what they were looking for was a membership card in the Tory government.
Mr Gerretsen: Shame, shame.
Mr Martin: Yes. I thought it was a terrible question to be asking. I guess what it does is it piques my concern, where this government and the public interest are concerned and the appointments that we see come through here on a fairly regular basis of well-placed Tory members, to hope that in this instance the interests of nurses and the interests of the public are going to be prime and of foremost concern where you're concerned.
Ms Greenwood: I'd just like to point out that my recommendation to participate in public life through an agency of the province predates my involvement with the Tory party. As I said, my formal involvement with the Tory party actually began prior to the election of the new leader. So I'd like to think that the people who approached me -- my discussions really were based on my professionalism and my concern for a quality environment and quality health care for this province rather than any political leanings that I may have. I certainly feel like this myself.
Mr Martin: Who were these people who approached you?
Ms Greenwood: As I said, in terms of the College of Nurses, I was contacted by someone from the Ministry of Health. My earlier discussions, which had been more the result of some discussions -- I had worked very closely with a number of other ministers of the government as an advocate for the environmental field. They knew of my interest in community life and participating in that.
Mr Martin: Would that be from the political side or the bureaucratic side of the Ministry of Health?
Ms Greenwood: To be honest with you, I had a call from someone and I'm not sure where they were from, from the health perspective.
Mr Martin: I may have missed this, but do you have any specific background at all in nursing, in health care?
Ms Greenwood: No. As I said, as an urban planner, the discipline of planning is one that facilitates gathering information and learning how to deal with it. If you look at my record, I've been involved in literacy, transportation, environment, obviously -- actually, strict land use planning and development. The list goes on. Urban planning is basically a discipline which teaches you skills to be able to address and make recommendations on certain subjects, but I have not directly been involved from a professional perspective in health care. I have, as a member of this community, obviously been involved in health care.
Mr Martin: So what would you bring to this council by way of knowledge, expertise, background or concern that would be helpful to both nurses and the community of Ontario?
Ms Greenwood: I think I have the perspective of a member of the public. I would certainly know how to gather and assess more information. I think those two perspectives would be quite valuable. And, as I said, on a personal level, I've had quite a bit of experience.
Mr Martin: What are the major concerns, in your mind, facing nursing and nurses in the province today?
Ms Greenwood: There are a number of issues: obviously, the stress on the nursing profession, the ability to attract nurses throughout the province and not just in cities like Toronto. Wages are an issue to attract good nursing care. I believe there's a role for nurses to work collegially with other medical professionals and serve perhaps a more creative role than has been the case. I know, for example, that there is a new class of extended nurses which can work with people in old age homes and can provide some creative support to the medical profession; certainly the problem of educating nurses in the province and having them leave and go to the United States, which is obviously partly a wage issue. These are all important issues.
The public wants and needs good quality nursing, and obviously it's important to provide an environment for nurses that is conducive to this.
The Chair: We move to the government.
Mr Frank Mazzilli (London-Fanshawe): Thank you very much for coming today. I certainly will be supporting your appointment to this board, but I know Mr Bradley would be very disappointed if I did not ask this question. We've heard that you've recently joined the Conservative Party to take part in the leadership. Have you ever, through yourself or a holding company, had membership in any other party or donated to any other party?
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Ms Greenwood: Yes, I have.
Mr Mazzilli: Who would those parties be?
Ms Greenwood: Certainly, the Liberal Party, and I am sure --
Mr Gerretsen: Can we get your address, please?
Ms Greenwood: I have worked very closely with members of the NDP, but I don't recall, I have to say, ever contributing. But that may be because I've never been asked to a fundraiser.
Mr Mazzilli: I think Mr Bradley wanted that question on the record, so that was my only question. Obviously, as Chair, he could not ask that question.
Ms Greenwood: Absolutely.
The Chair: Any other questions?
Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough): Before I get to the question, I want to compliment you on your involvement in this past leadership contest. Unfortunately, many Ontarians get very complacent and we don't get involved enough in it. We'd be the first ones who would be very outspoken if we didn't have the right to vote, so I compliment you on that. Also, you had an interesting answer to my colleague of being somewhat in the right place at the right time possibly, over the past few years.
In a few words or less, what do you think of health care in Ontario? Because you're getting involved with something that is certainly a priority and a very important part of the way we operate in Ontario.
Ms Greenwood: I think it's a system under stress that needs support.
I think that the role of nurses is extremely important; I think the term was the "backbone" of the system. I think it is the backbone of the system. In fact, it's probably the term I would have used. There is a role for the nurses to be more creative in providing and supporting the system. As I said, I think there's a role for a collegial approach between the different aspects of the system to work together much more effectively. We all hear stories of problems.
Near me, I have two doctors who are at the Hospital for Sick Children. They tell me of waiting rooms, they tell me about no places to put children at night. I know I've brought my own children down a couple of times. We've been put in the atrium and we've waited and waited and waited all night for some sort of support.
I also think there's another issue in the way the public uses the health care system, which is beyond the scope of the College of Nurses but is something that should be addressed eventually, and hopefully will be. So, yes, I think it is a system that is under stress and needs support.
Mr Stewart: What do you think of nurse practitioners?
Ms Greenwood: I think there's an important role for nurse practitioners, and I know that it can be very effectively used. I believe that the nursing profession, used properly, can help fill in the gaps that exist now.
The Chair: That completes the questioning. Mr Wood?
Mr Wood: We'll waive the balance of our time.
The Chair: That completes the questioning, Ms Greenwood. You may now step down. Thank you for being with us.
TERENCE TAIT
Review of intended appointment, selected by official opposition party: Terence Tait, intended appointee as member, City of Kingston Police Services Board.
The Chair: Our next intended appointee is Terence J. Tait, intended appointee as member, City of Kingston Police Services Board. Welcome to the committee, Mr Tait.
Mr Terence Tait: Good morning.
The Chair: I know you would be aware that you have an opportunity to make an initial statement, and that questions will come from members of the committee subsequent to that. We will be commencing those questions, in this case, with the third party.
Mr Tait: First off, I have no real experience in police matters. But the good news is I've got no real experience in criminal matters. So what I would draw upon is my work experience and my community experience.
I don't know if you've ever been to Kingston, but one of the things you would probably check out, other than Mr Gerretsen's office, would be the Thousand Islands. In Kingston, there's a tour boat called the Island Queen. I don't know if you've been on it, but I built it with two other chaps. I can't favour you with any passes, because I've sold out. But if you ever get to Kingston, I would certainly recommend a tour of the Thousand Islands.
I've had other work experience, entrepreneurial experience. I'm still a developer. I'm with a group that basically subdivides land and provides lots to builders who build houses. I've been doing this for 20 or 25 years. I also have an interest in building commercial buildings. I own some and have built some. That's one of the things I've done.
In my spare time I've been a lawyer. I'm trying to remember now: I graduated from Osgoode in 1966 and was called to the bar in 1968, so I've been doing this for almost 35 years. Over a period of that time, I was quite busy. I was on my own, and I had five legal secretaries. That was for about 10 or 12 years. The point I'm making here is that workload or work is not an issue with me. It's no problem at all.
In terms of being involved in the community -- by the way, I haven't applied for a job in 30 years, so it was fun making up a resumé. I've always been self-employed and done my own thing. When I first went to Kingston, one of the first things I got involved in was the cancer campaign. I eventually worked up to become the chair of the cancer campaign. I've been involved with the local hospital. I was on the board of directors of Hotel Dieu for nine years. I'm a past director of a Rotary Club and was involved with that for 10 or 15 years. I was the founding president of L'Arche Frontenac, which you might not know. It's a home that we developed in the north part of the county for mentally handicapped adults. It was like a farmhouse. I don't know if you know about the L'Arche concept; it comes down from Jean Vanier. I got involved in that, and it was most interesting. I was the past president of the Frontenac Law Association -- I didn't want to forget that.
One of the things you won't see in my resumé, though -- it's sort of a personal thing -- my wife and I and our two boys adopted a teenaged daughter. We brought her into our house at age 14. She's now 24 and just doing wonderfully. You can imagine -- or maybe you can't -- she was a crown ward. She lived in about 20 different foster homes in 14 years. She was going in one direction only, and that was down. So we brought her in, and it was a 24-hour-a-day project and we turned her right around. The results are wonderful, and we are extremely happy about that. But it was a way of contributing to the community. It's much easier to write a cheque, but we actually went out there and did something.
I would hope this sort of experience -- being involved in the community -- would be helpful on the Kingston Police Services Board. I ran out of community projects. I've cut back my law practice, so I've got loads of time now. I heard about this position, and I thought this would be a nice way to contribute to the community. In closing, I hope I could make a positive contribution to the Kingston Police Services Board.
The Chair: Thank you very much, sir. We'll commence our questioning with the third party.
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Mr Martin: Thanks for coming this morning. In listening to your involvement and your busyness in Kingston over a long period of time, I guess the first question is, besides being interested in the police services board, what at this particular point in time would have triggered your actually putting together a resumé and applying to serve in this capacity?
Mr Tait: I've always been interested in the police. I've always admired them. An incident happened a couple of years ago. I got a phone call in the middle of the night; it was a chap who said there were police cars and fire trucks surrounding one of my buildings. So I jumped in my car and went down. When I got there, there were a bunch of windows broken and there was another building farther down that was on fire and it was quite active. One of the police officers, in pitch dark, went smashing through the window intent on finding the intruders. I was amazed. Fortunately, the intruders had been and gone. So I admire them.
Then, on top of that, the canine unit came in, which I didn't know about, and the policeman with the dog -- I'll never forget his name: Razor -- was told where the alleged criminals were, and the dog went to the spot, picked up the scent and literally took the police right to the front doorstep of the house where, as it turned out, one of the criminals was. He was a juvenile. He immediately confessed.
I was impressed. So when this came up, I thought this would be kind of interesting to get involved in to see if I could assist in some way or fashion to ensure that the security and safety of the citizens of the city of Kingston were protected. They were certainly protected in this instance.
Mr Martin: When you say, "When this came up," how did this come up?
Mr Tait: This appointment?
Mr Martin: Yes.
Mr Tait: I heard about it through the past chairman of the board. He told me.
Mr Martin: He suggested that this might be something that you'd be --
Mr Tait: That's right. He suggested this might be of interest to me, and I thought it would be.
Mr Martin: Did he elaborate on why he thought you in particular would be a good fit?
Mr Tait: No.
Mr Martin: Is there anything in particular about policing and police services in Kingston at the moment that is of concern to you?
Mr Tait: I imagine the big problem that they have now -- not being a member of the board, but from what you read in the newspaper -- is that the city has amalgamated with the two adjacent municipalities and the police force is operating out of the old police station for the old city now with the population practically doubled. You now have, I think, 200 staff working out of a building that was built for 80. To me, that doesn't sound very efficient. So probably a major concern of the police services board would be to provide a new facility that would make their operation more efficient and probably improve morale.
Mr Martin: Is morale a problem?
Mr Tait: Not that I'm aware of, but it sounds like an awful mess: 200 people in a building for 80.
Mr Martin: Other than the experience you've shared with us of going out in the night to see if this building that was under --
Mr Tait: My building.
Mr Martin: Your building, yes. Did you have any other involvement at all with police or policing in the community that situates you in a way that would have you readily understand some of the challenges that are faced?
Mr Tait: Not really. As a lawyer I really didn't practise criminal law, except when I first started. I recall that it seemed to me that policemen were more involved with attending in court on remands. To my way of thinking, if something can be done to get them out of that role, to reduce that role and get them out into the public and make them more visible, I would strive to do that.
Mr Martin: That would be what you would bring of most help to this work?
Mr Tait: As a member of the board I would promote that among the other members and in consultation with the chief. I may be of assistance to them too if they do go ahead and build a new police station, given my experience.
Mr Martin: You wouldn't have any conflict of interest there in terms of some of the property you own or development you're doing?
Mr Tait: None, no.
Mr Martin: What's your understanding of community policing?
Mr Tait: Very little. I understand we have it. I'm not up to speed on that, but if I get on the board I'm sure I can get up to speed pretty fast.
Mr Martin: Are there any issues in your area of concern between, say, the police association and the police chief and the board?
Mr Tait: If you're referring to the council, Mr Stoparczyk --
Mr Martin: Possibly.
Mr Tait: -- that's something I read about in the local newspaper. I guess the net result was that the police board chairman and the police chief apologized to Mr Stoparczyk.
Mr Martin: Has that created any difficulty, then, with the police association in any way that you're aware of?
Mr Tait: I'm not aware of it. It's like the old story: if you only know what you read in the newspaper, you don't have all the facts. I hate to comment on that or take a position, but obviously when people apologize, something did go wrong. Other than that -- that's all I know.
Mr Johnson: I just have one. Mr Tait, as you're aware, we had a young fellow in here, Michael O'Neill, who's applying for a position on the health council in the Kingston area. I just wondered if the arrangements that Mr Gerretsen made for you and he to come up together to save on transportation were satisfactory.
I make that in jest.
Mr Tait: I still feel like I'm on the 401, so I'm not pleased with Mr Gerretsen's travel arrangements.
Mr Johnson: I make that in jest, but I did want to add that I'm pleased to see you offer yourself for a public position. I wish you well.
Mr Tait: Thank you.
Mr Mazzilli: I have a question, sir. Have you ever contributed money to the Ontario Liberal Party?
Mr Tait: Never.
Mr Mazzilli: I tried. Sir, you will be a great board member.
The Chair: I should say to Mr Mazzilli that, as you know, in the Legislature we seldom ask questions to which we do not already know the answers.
Mr Mazzilli: I was 50-50 today, sir.
Mr Gerretsen: It's nice to see Mr Tait here this morning. I guess we've known each other for, what, all of these 34 or 35 years --
Mr Tait: I think so.
Mr Gerretsen: -- in one capacity or another.
You were asked by Mr Mazzilli whether or not you have ever contributed to the Liberal Party. What you didn't put in your resumé is that indeed you have been a very active worker and supporter, at least in the past, for the federal Conservative Party, and as a matter of fact you were the campaign manager for one of the best members we ever had in Kingston, Flora MacDonald.
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Mr Tait: Thank you very much. She was one of the best candidates. That's correct, what you said.
Mr Gerretsen: Absolutely; I completely concur with this. I would suggest that in the future you put that in your resumé, because it really sells.
Mr Tait: Thank you very much.
The Chair: My compliments to the Conservative members. She was a red Tory, I think.
Mr Gerretsen: But Mr Tait was very successful in that effort.
You made reference to the fact that with the new city of Kingston and the old police building that we have there, which has been a subject of controversy for I think the last 25 or 30 years, ever since it was built -- because it was basically two buildings put together, if I remember correctly, and there were leakage problems and everything else associated with that -- now, with the expanded force, they definitely need a new facility. I believe council is dealing with that matter currently.
Let me ask you this. You may recall that some 15 years ago or so there was a proposal put forward that the city police take over the policing of Kingston township as well. This was at the time when for the first time the OPP was going to charge for their services. Were you involved in any way, shape or form at all in that rather controversial movement at the time on either the city police side or the OPP side?
Mr Tait: Was that when the OPP wanted to set up a station and the city wanted to take Kingston township? Is that it?
Mr Gerretsen: The city put in a proposal to do the policing in the township as well, and the OPP put in a better proposal, but basically not charging the true costs, what it actually cost the OPP to police the township. As a result of that, there was a tremendous movement within the old township of Kingston to retain the OPP and many people got actively involved in that. Did you get involved in that at all?
Mr Tait: Not at all.
Mr Gerretsen: My reason for asking that is that I think there may still be some lingering bitterness and people may perceive a commissioner to be either on one side or the other side of this old chestnut, as it were.
I'd like to turn to the Stoparczyk situation for just a moment. I take it that the only reason you mentioned that earlier is that you get the same sort of legislative briefing notes that we get. There's one comment the Whig-Standard made at that time about the whole situation. I must admit I found the whole thing a little bit bizarre, when it first started and how it finished. You and I know Mr Stoparczyk quite well and I think he's a very honourable individual to ever have been involved in that kind of situation or to be alleged to have been involved in that situation. Of course, the case was eventually totally dropped, without any evidence being offered.
The Whig-Standard said, and this comes to the role of the police commissioner or the members on the police services board, "But what should be a critical oversight group of vigilant citizens has usually acted as a rubber stamp and apologist for the police," in reference to the police services board. What role do you feel the police services board should play in the operation of the policing in a community? Obviously there was some feeling at that time that maybe the police services board hadn't acted properly, hadn't asked the right questions after this event.
Mr Tait: I think, as you know, the police services board does not get involved in the day-to-day operations of the police force. As far as this particular case is concerned, all we know is what we read in front of us, and very often there probably are other facts we are not aware of. It is astounding. I think Mr Stoparczyk has been on council longer than Mr Gerretsen.
Mr Gerretsen: No, no; don't do that to him, please.
Mr Tait: In other words, he's a very well known person in the community. So you have a charge of criminal assault?
Mr Gerretsen: Yes.
Mr Tait: That's a pretty serious charge laid against him. It's alleged that the police did not interview him. On that basis it sounds unusual, but who knows? Maybe his lawyer said, "Don't talk to the police." I don't know, but maybe people on the board know this. I don't know, but it does seem very unusual. As a potential member of the board, I would certainly promote policies among the board, if the board accepts them, in consultation with the chief, that would ensure that this sort of thing doesn't happen again.
Mr Gerretsen: Are you saying that basically you would have asked some pretty specific questions of the chief and the other people involved as to how this could have happened? And you're right: it may very well have happened on some sort of in camera basis. But is this the type of action you would take as a member of the board?
Mr Tait: It's the sort of thing I would do at the board meeting. Whether or not the board follows my recommendation is entirely up to the other members, but yes, definitely.
Mr Gerretsen: There have been some other incidents as well. There was a rather public dispute just recently between the owner of a number of properties in what is commonly referred to as "the hub" and the chief of police. Do you have any comments on that at all?
Mr Tait: None.
Mr Gerretsen: It dealt with whether or not extra policing was required at the intersection of Division and Princess Street, and the chief had one view of that. I've got the highest regard for Chief Closs as well, who started off with the OPP and was regarded as the individual who could quite effectively bring the OPP and the city police together. Do you have any comments on that situation at all?
Mr Tait: No, I don't, really, Mr Gerretsen. I'm not conversant with that issue.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Good morning, Mr Tait. With regard to the Stoparczyk incident in the city of Kingston, as a result of the publicity that particular case attracted there were a number of other individuals within the city of Kingston who voiced similar concerns around the police services in the city. Are you aware of those? Is that an issue for you? Is that something that as a member of the board you would want to pursue? While I appreciate that as a member of the police services board you would not be involved in micromanaging the service, surely as a member of the board would you not think you had a significant responsibility to ensure not only that those kinds of issues are addressed, but that measures are taken to ensure the service is not perceived in that way within the community?
Mr Tait: As a member of the board, I would agree with you. Again, it's what was written in the newspaper: "numerous complaints." How many are "numerous"? I don't know. Who where they made to? Were they made to the police chief? Were they made to the board? If they were made to me or I heard about them, I would certainly do whatever I could to investigate them. But I take things with a grain of salt when I read the newspaper.
Mrs Dombrowsky: But you have to understand that this is a service that is paid for by the taxpayers, who don't take those kinds of reports in the newspaper with a grain of salt. They would like to think that the service they are paying for is effective and is operating in their better interests. So while you might be privy to some facts around these alleged incidents, there is still a perception within the community that I believe needs to be addressed by the police services board. Do you think it is your responsibility, as a member of the board, to make sure that those perceptions within the public -- the community, the people who pay for the service -- are allayed?
Mr Tait: The perception seemed to be the perception of the Whig-Standard. Having said that, it's out there. It may be the perception of the community; I don't know. I recognize that it's out there by the Whig. I would look into it and, if it needs to be addressed, address it so the people in the community know that either it's not an issue or it is an issue. If it is an issue, I would ask the board, in discussions with the chief, to do what's necessary to correct it.
Mrs Dombrowsky: Do you think that at the present time the concerns of the community have been allayed?
Mr Tait: I don't know.
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The Chair: That completes the time allocated to the official opposition. We have completed our questioning now. Thank you, sir. You may step down.
A point of order?
Mr Gerretsen: This isn't a point of order. I just wanted to make a statement, not about this particular candidate but in general.
Mr Wood: Which is probably out of order, but carry on anyway.
The Chair: We're very fortunate we have Mr Wood's kind consent.
Mr Gerretsen: I made this request earlier, I think when I was privileged to attend this meeting four or five months ago. As a non-voting member, I realize that my powers here are extremely limited.
The Chair: Extremely limited.
Mr Gerretsen: There's been an awful lot of discussion this morning again about how people find out about these appointments and whatever. Sure, people find out in all sorts of ways: through government members, through opposition members, through government agencies, through departments, through word of mouth and hearsay. I will give credit to the NDP government from 1990 to 1995 for one thing -- for a number of things, but one thing that they really had right as far as I was concerned was that back in 1994 they published a document which contained every position within the Ontario government to which people are appointed in one way or another, what the terms of reference were, what the remuneration was, what the length of service was, when the appointments came up etc, and that document was available in public libraries all over the province.
I think if we want to get the best people brought forward in one way or another, the first thing that has to happen is people have to know that these appointments exist. Although word of mouth may be one way of doing it --
Mr Mazzilli: They're on the Web site.
Mr Gerretsen: Well, they may be on the Web site, but a lot of people do not have access to the Web as yet. I think if a publication came out -- and I would urge the government members to take a look at the old publication that came out in 1994-95, which gave the people of Ontario the greatest possible knowledge as to what positions are out there.
If they were advertised in some way or another -- and they may very well be on the Web site; I don't dispute what you're saying for a moment -- at least people will have an opportunity then to know what's out there and we won't get involved in these kinds of issues, "Did you hear it from so and so?" and that sort of thing. So I would urge you to make the whole public appointment process as open as possible so that we can get the best people to serve the people of Ontario.
The Chair: Thank you for your point of -- what shall we call it, Mr Wood? -- your point of view, I guess, that you have expressed.
I should tell you that members of the committee have discussed the matter of how best to have the information available to the public. Everyone on the committee is aware of that and each may communicate with the Premier or any other minister or any other office should they see fit. Some day, if the committee wishes to come forward with a specific recommendation that the whole committee agrees with, perhaps we'll pass it along. But at this point in time it's individual views, and I certainly urge members to pass those views along to the appropriate authorities.
We'll now deal with two items. I want to say we'll need some extensions to deal with, if we can, in a moment, but I want to deal with the consideration of the appointments first of all.
The first appointment is Michael O'Neill, intended appointee as member, Southeastern Ontario District Health Council.
Mr Wood: I move concurrence.
The Chair: Mr Wood has moved concurrence. Any discussion? All in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.
The next appointment is Barbara J. Herron, intended appointee as member, council of the College of Midwives of Ontario.
Mr Wood: I move concurrence.
The Chair: Mr Wood has moved concurrence. Any discussion? If not, I'll call the vote. All in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.
The next is Ellen Greenwood, intended appointee as member, council of the College of Nurses of Ontario.
Mr Wood: I move concurrence.
The Chair: Mr Wood has moved concurrence. Any discussion? If not, I'll call the vote. All in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.
The next intended appointee is Terence J. Tait, intended appointee as member, City of Kingston Police Services Board.
Mr Wood: I move concurrence.
The Chair: Mr Wood has moved concurrence. Any discussion? All in favour? Opposed? The motion is carried.
We now have to deal with the matter of some extensions required: Joseph deMora, Cancer Care Ontario, a March 22 certificate; John Melady, Custody Review Board, Child and Family Services Review Board, March 8 certificate -- on April 3 he received a 15-day extension. There are four outstanding intended appointments to be scheduled. So we require two things: one would be an extension of the time required for the committee to deal with these, and the second would be setting the date for the next meeting.
Mr Wood: I'd be hopeful of getting us fully up to date prior to the start of the session, which I presume would be around May 9. I'd like to offer that as a comment. What do they need? A 20-day extension?
The Chair: It depends on when the next date is. Would 20 days do it? Shall we perhaps set the date of the meeting and then decide what the extension shall be, or would you like to do it the opposite way?
Mr Wood: My only concern is that we not have a backlog when we get into another sitting.
The Chair: Exactly.
Mr Wood: So if I could get some help on that.
The Chair: As the Chair, I agree with the member. Yes, Mr Gravelle?
Mr Gravelle: Can we look at a May 1 meeting? That would give us an opportunity to have the potential to meet on May 8 as well, because I think that further certificates have come forward this week or last week.
The Chair: Looking at the committee agenda, I see that we have the select committee on alternative fuels, of which I'm a member and am not sitting on this morning, sitting that day. The day before, Tuesday, April 30, is completely clear of any other committees. I don't know how that fits with members of the committee.
Mr Wood: There appears to be some flexibility.
The Chair: April 30 appears to be OK, Mr Martin? What about you on April 30?
Mr Gravelle: That sounds fine to me, Mr Chair.
The Chair: Fine to Mr Gravelle.
Mr Martin: If we can't get it all done the next week, then maybe May 8? Is that what you're saying, Mr Wood?
Mr Wood: We don't know what's going to come down the pike between now and then. If you have only one day, then we'd have a backlog going into the extra sitting. I think the idea of sitting on April 30 or May 1 is good, so that if we do find ourselves with more names than we currently anticipate, we'll have another day when we can sit.
Mr Martin: April 30 is fine.
The Chair: April 30 appears to be a consensus. I'm looking for any objection. Other than that, on April 30 each party may substitute if we deem that appropriate. If April 30 at 10 am is fine, we will declare April 30 the date.
Mr Wood: That requires how much of an extension?
The Chair: A 14-day extension is required.
Mr Wood: I would ask unanimous consent for a 14-day extension of the names listed earlier, which no doubt you and the clerk could give us again so we know what we've extended.
The Chair: Yes, we will give those to you again. Would you like them now? I will give them to you right now. He's asking for unanimous consent for these extensions: Joseph deMora, Cancer Care Ontario, a March 22 certificate; John Melady, Custody Review Board, Child and Family Services Review Board, a March 8 certificate, and he had received a 15-day extension on April 3. I guess he was not able to be with us. There are four outstanding intended appointments -- two plus those two. Two of those four outstanding intended appointments need to be scheduled.
Can we have that extension? Do we agree with Mr Wood? Thank you. We have that agreement among members of the committee.
We have agreement on the next date for the committee to meet. Is there any other business to come before the committee? If not, I'll entertain an adjournment motion.
Mr Wood: So moved.
The Chair: Mr Wood has moved adjournment. Any discussion? If not, all in favour? Opposed? Carried unanimously.
The committee adjourned at 1201.
CONTENTS
Wednesday 17 April 2002
Subcommittee report A-403
Intended appointments
A-403
Mr Michael O'Neill A-403
Ms Barbara Herron A-406
Ms Ellen Greenwood A-409
Mr Terence Tait A-413
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Président
Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines L)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président
Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North / -Nord L)
Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines L)
Mrs Leona Dombrowsky (Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington L)
Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North / -Nord L)
Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex PC)
Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie ND)
Mr Frank Mazzilli (London-Fanshawe PC)
Mr Jerry J. Ouellette (Oshawa PC)
Mr Bob Wood (London West / -Ouest PC)
Substitutions / Membres remplaçants
Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough)
Also taking part / Autres participants et participantes
Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands / Kingston et les îles L)
Clerk / Greffier
Mr Tom Prins
Staff / Personnel
Mr Andrew McNaught, research officer,
Research and Information Services