CONTENTS
Tuesday 24 March 1992
Appointments review process
Meerai Cho
Wolfgang Pusztay
Harry Adams
Michael Grainger
Alok Mukherjee
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair / Président(e): Runciman, Robert W. (Leeds-Grenville PC)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président(e): McLean, Allan K. (Simcoe East/-Est PC)
Carter, Jenny (Peterborough ND)
Elston, Murray J. (Bruce L)
Frankford, Robert (Scarborough East/-Est ND)
Grandmaître, Bernard (Ottawa East/-Est L)
Hayes, Pat (Essex-Kent ND)
Jackson, Cameron (Burlington South/-Sud PC)
McGuinty, Dalton (Ottawa South/-Sud L)
Marchese, Rosario (Fort York ND)
Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay/Muskoka-Baie-Georgienne ND)
Wiseman, Jim (Durham West/-Ouest ND)
Substitution(s)/Membre(s) remplaçant(s):
Callahan, Robert V. (Brampton South/-Sud L) for Mr Elston
Duignan, Noel (Halton North/-Nord ND) for Mr Waters
Hansen, Ron (Lincoln ND) for Mr Hayes
Murdock, Sharon (Sudbury ND) for Ms Carter
Ruprecht, Tony (Parkdale L) for Mr McGuinty
Villeneuve, Noble (S-D-G & East Grenville/S-D-G & Grenville-Est PC) for Mr Jackson
Wilson, Gary (Kingston and The Islands/Kingston et Les Îles ND) for Mr Wiseman
Clerk / Greffier: Arnott, Douglas
Staff / Personnel: Pond, David, Research Officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1005 in room 228.
APPOINTMENTS REVIEW
Resuming consideration of intended appointments.
MEERAI CHO
The Chair: Could we come to order, please. I welcome the committee back to Queen's Park.
We will get right to business immediately and call on our first witness -- I stand to be corrected here in terms of pronunciation -- Meerai Cho. Would you like to come forward, please, and take a seat. Welcome to the committee. We appreciate your appearance here this morning. Ms Cho is the intended appointee as a member of the council of the College of Nurses of Ontario. This is a half-hour review, and each party has 10 minutes to ask questions and receive your responses within that 10-minute time period. You were selected by the third party for review, so I am going to look to Mr McLean to begin.
Mr McLean: Welcome to the committee this morning. You can feel at ease because this committee is very easy to get along with and does not ask too many hard questions. I am sure you will be able to answer them all very simply.
Do you have experience? Are you a nurse?
Ms Cho: No, I am not a nurse.
Mr McLean: Are you a teacher by profession?
Ms Cho: No. My job is as a curriculum developer, so that is far away from nursing.
Mr McLean: What drew you to make an application to be on the council of the College of Nurses of Ontario?
Ms Cho: I guess as a member of the public and as a visible minority woman, I thought I could contribute some input to the improvement of medicare in Ontario.
Mr McLean: Yet you are not familiar with the nursing fraternity, so to speak, as far as anything involved in nursing.
Ms Cho: I had an opportunity to get some background information or knowledge on the role of the college. A couple of years ago I was working as an English-as-a-second-language instructor and I happened to have 34 registered nurses trained overseas. By spending some time with my students I got to know something about the role of the college. As an immigrant who came to Canada about 15 years ago, I have experienced and witnessed a lot of barriers to services, including medicare, training, education and employment and have become more aware of how the system should work and how it could be improved upon. I have some things to say.
Mr McLean: I would like to know then, do you know what the mandate of the council of the College of Nurses of Ontario is?
Ms Cho: I understand the council is the governing body. The board of directors manages and the minister is the Minister of Colleges and Universities. In the public interest, it regulates the practice of registered nurses and the registered nursing assistants by establishing, monitoring and enforcing the standards of practice and ethical guidelines.
Mr McLean: Do you know how many members are on the board?
Ms Cho: Correct me if I am wrong. I think there are approximately 30 members.
Mr McLean: How long is the term of office? Do you know?
Ms Cho: I believe it is one year, but it can be renewed for up to six years.
Mr McLean: I think council members serve a three-year term, up to a maximum of three consecutive terms. I will pass for now.
Mr Villeneuve: Ms Cho, thank you for joining us. In your professional position as a curriculum developer, who is your employer?
Ms Cho: I work for the Metro Labour Education and Skills Training Centre, which is a program of the Labour Council of Metropolitan Toronto and York region.
Mr Villeneuve: So you would be dealing with the retraining of adults?
Ms Cho: Yes.
Mr Villeneuve: In that retraining do you from time to time run into people in the nursing profession who have discussed some of their problems with you, members of Ontario Nurses' Association, members of the College of Nurses?
Ms Cho: Not in the capacity I work in at the moment because I am, in a sense, kind of removed from the classroom instruction. Before this job, for 10 years I used to teach English as a second language, as I told you before, and I have encountered some foreign-trained nurses struggling to be members of fully licensed registered nursing in Ontario.
Mr Villeneuve: That would certainly give you a window on the problems faced: language, training and what have you?
Ms Cho: Exactly.
Mr Villeneuve: Back to your professional position as a curriculum developer, have you had the opportunity of working in the development of curriculum in the medical or related fields?
Ms Cho: Some of my students are working in hospitals, and on one occasion I had to edit and coordinate a project of developing curriculum for hospital workers. There are many working in the maintenance department, but some of them were qualified and entitled to become members of the college -- I mean nursing aid assistants and nurses, but they are stuck in their own jobs at the moment.
Mr Frankford: Have you had time to look into the Regulated Health Professions Act that was brought in?
Ms Cho: No, I am sorry, all I know is from the news.
Mr Frankford: Okay. Coming from another country, do you have any sort of general thoughts about the health system or nursing, comparing where you come from with what goes on here?
Ms Cho: I can just think perhaps of episodes that I thought could symbolize what I am thinking of. I came here in 1976 and I was hospitalized to deliver my first baby. The baby had to become a hostage of the hospital just because he had yellow jaundice, which is considered very normal for a newborn baby in my country. Culturally, I never knew it could be considered as a disease and my first son had to be away from me for a few days and I had to be sent home myself without the baby. It was a shocking story, even though I told my doctor and the nurses that I do not think it is a problem. If it is a problem I will bring him back. But the hospital took responsibility of being the parent of the child and I lost the control over my child, which is one thing I could not understand.
While I was staying in the hospital, one of the nurses advised me not to use the soap provided by the hospital, saying it is harmful to use and I was going to use it for my baby to wash his hands. I said, "How come you put this if it is harmful for your patients?" She said, "Well, that's the way it is." I realized it is really out of control and there have got to be some considerations.
The food the hospital provided for a mother who has just delivered a baby was so awful I could not take it. No wonder you could not get recovered soon enough. It wastes a lot of money from a government point of view if a patient has to stay longer just because the food was not proper for the patient. You know, things like that. I have had a few experiences like that.
Mr Frankford: I guess one observation I would make around this is that nurses on the one hand are professionals with professional autonomy under the control of their college; on the other hand, they are employees of institutions such as hospitals. Have you given any thought to how you would like to develop things if you become a member of the college council?
Ms Cho: Could you explain a bit?
Mr Frankford: To ensure, or to make it easier for nurses to be more autonomous professionals, if they are regarded more as professionals than as employees, while on the other hand their working circumstances may make them more responsible to the institution. I think there are dilemmas there and presumably this will come up in your work.
Ms Cho: I think in every level of medicare there has to be more participation and involvement from all sectors, meaning different cultural groups and ethnic groups. We have to utilize fully what we, meaning immigrants, bring to this country. These days we realize we can learn a lot from the native people. That is an example. I think we can learn a lot from other backgrounds, other cultural groups. I think in every profession workers should feel that they are the owner of the system, they are the contributor to make the system better, instead of, "Well, that's how the system works." That is kind of a very helpless and powerless statement. If you feel you are the owner, you can really be more responsible. I do not know in detail what I can propose, but I am sure if I can become a member I can have more insights.
Mr Frankford: One last question: Do you have any thoughts about the requirements that all nurses should have a bachelor's degree?
Ms Cho: I am sure the professionals can regulate and decide what academic level there should be, but one thing I can say right now is that, let's say I am a nurse trained in my own country, which does not have the concept of a bachelor's degree and does not have a concept of university. Then how would you judge whether the person has the bachelor's degree we perceive in Canada or according to Canadian education?
A few years ago there was kind of a crisis in nurses, a shortage of nurses, and I heard the news that the government had to spend a lot of money to recruit nurses from overseas. At the same time, I see my students being wasted in Ontario, with all their expertise and training, not being able to even apply or even get close to becoming a nurse. That is an employment equity issue, and it is not only in nursing; it is a problem with doctors and dentists and everywhere. But it is going back to what I said: The awareness and learning and pooling all the resources we have in Ontario we have to consider very seriously.
The Chair: There are a couple of minutes left. Does any other government member have a question? Mr Grandmaître.
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Mr Grandmaître: Miss Cho, when I look at the responsibilities of this position, to participate at board meetings and to participate in formulating board policy with respect to standards of practice for the profession -- and I admire your frankness when you say that, no, you do not have related experience -- what made you apply for this specific appointment?
Ms Cho: To be honest with you, the office of the Minister of Health approached me, mainly through my work in advocacy for visible minority women in Ontario. Since I have a lot to say in terms of, particularly, employment equity, I thought this is one way of serving society as a citizen to improve the medicare system.
Mr Grandmaître: It is not because you had experience in nursing or registration requirements and investigation of complaints against practitioners. You have no related experience in those fields and you were approached by the ministry because of your past experience in something unrelated to what your responsibilities will be in the future.
Ms Cho: I can say that I always felt a council like this one, or any governing body of any government agency, should have more participation and involvement from various groups, including a visible minority woman like me. When I look at the list of names of this council, I see all Anglo-Saxon names. No wonder there is a lack of cultural awareness, a lack of the issues on employment equity. How can our voice, meaning the minority group's voice, be heard if you do not give us a chance in the first place? I think this is one way for my voice and our voice to be heard, being part of this kind of council.
Mr Grandmaître: So what you are telling me is that in the past the council has done a poor job trying to recruit visible minority people or people other than white Anglo-Saxons. Is that what you are telling me?
Ms Cho: There were some problems, definitely, and there was some -- what can I say? -- waste of human resources and waste of the budget money.
Mr Grandmaître: My question was very specific. Do you think they have done a poor job in recruiting visible minorities?
Ms Cho: If I say, "Yes, it was poor; yes, it was rich," it would be a very poor rating. One of the reasons I chose to live in Canada is the medicare system in Ontario and in Canada, but there is some room for it to be improved.
Mr Grandmaître: Tell me about the improvements you would like to see.
Mr Ruprecht: There are thousands of people out there who are qualified.
Mr Marchese: Where are you coming from?
The Chair: Let's have order, please. Mr Grandmaitre has the floor.
Mr Grandmaître: Tell me about those improvements that you would like to see. Do not pay any attention to these people; they are not being appointed. Tell me about those improvements that you would like to see, things that have really struck you since 1976, did you say, that you have been living in Canada?
Ms Cho: Yes.
Mr Grandmaître: Tell me about those experiences and what really struck you about them.
Ms Cho: Well, I can just think from my own personal experience at the moment. For example, my father had to be hospitalized for his open-heart surgery two years ago. The basic problem for him was that he did not have any way of communicating with the nurses. At the critical moment between life and death, he had to depend on either me or somebody else. That is one example: translation service in medicare.
I do not know what would be the alternative, but I witnessed in the recent years it has been really improving trying to get out and get the translation service and stuff like that. But would there not be any way of making it a little easier to the patients, to the family? I notice a lot of old people going through the medicare system, particularly from the immigrant's point of view.
It becomes burdensome to the family members of the patients who are dying. I have a friend who had to quit her own job just to take care of her mother, simply because her mother could not eat the food provided by the hospital and she could not communicate. She could not function at all as a patient in the hospital. Should she be quitting her job to take care of her mother? Is there any way that the medicare system can take a look at and provide some kind of alternative ways of taking care of the patients?
I do not really have anything specific I can propose now, but that is one of the challenges I have in mind. Maybe I can do something about it with other members of the council.
Mr Grandmaître: You are right on. I think communications are very important, especially with sick people, senior citizens who cannot communicate. I know it is very difficult because I belong to one of the minorities in this province and I think the government is starting to understand the difficulties that these people are faced with, especially when they are hospitalized or they have to be treated. I want to wish you well and I hope you will learn very fast and apply all those great things that you want to change.
Ms Cho: Thank you.
Mr Grandmaître: Good luck to you.
The Chair: Each caucus has a couple of minutes left. Are there any additional questions?
Mr Ruprecht: You probably know we have been trying for years, even when we were the government, to ensure there is some cultural sensitivity. Especially, I think, a few years ago we made some progress that you no doubt would have supported in terms of equivalency for educational standards from other countries versus Ontario. There was some progress made in that area so that no one who has equivalent education from another country coming to Canada should be discriminated against, because occasionally we felt that was being done to keep some people out or to keep them waiting. However, the facts were that these people were trained well and, after examination between the University of Toronto and other universities, the same curriculum was covered.
Coming back to this particular appointment, and I want to draw some relationship between those two items, in your view have governments, the previous government or this government, done enough to ensure that qualified candidates are being appointed to these positions? That was my first question.
My second question is, do you think the government should begin a mechanism by which it can find qualified people in the minority communities so they could be serving and not flounder around and simply accept almost anyone in their desire, whether qualified or not -- no reflection on you -- but certainly looking in this specific direction of ensuring that there are qualified minority women or minority men on these boards? The question to you is simply this: Should there be a special mechanism established, and what should that mechanism be so that more sensitivity can be shown to these appointments and qualified people can be found?
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Ms Cho: I will begin with the second question, your last question. I believe that this government, the NDP government, is planning to legislate the Employment Equity Act. That is one way of getting there, and I think it should be legislated. It should be across the board, and it should not be just limited to the nursing profession. That is one mechanism that I can think of. By legally regulating it and by its becoming a mandatory measure we can certainly improve to a certain point, but in the employment equity measure itself we need a very efficient outreach mechanism to reach out for those who are not aware of their available access and their rights as yet. We need quite a number of promotional outreach programs in employment equity.
Mr Villeneuve: We have just been --
Ms Cho: But I did not answer --
The Chair: I am sorry, you do not have the time.
Mr Villeneuve: I have just been given your résumé, and I see you are a member of the Office and Professional Employees International Union 343. The nursing profession is considered to be an essential service. As a council member about to be named to the College of Nurses of Ontario, do you agree that nurses must not ever be allowed to strike?
Ms Cho: As a worker, I think they have a right to strike. That is an interesting question. Coming from Korea I have not seen any strikes by teachers, nurses or doctors because of their dignity or their kind of mission in the profession, so that is a really interesting question. All I can say is any worker should have a right to strike.
Mr Waters: I would like to get back to your experience and what you would bring. Could you once again go over what you feel you would bring to this position that would be of benefit? I look at your résumé and I see a long list, so I was wondering if you could once again reaffirm that you do bring something positive to this position, if you could do that.
Ms Cho: I can bring perspectives from the point of view of visible minority people, and I can bring my experience and expertise in employment equity issues, particularly in nursing.
The Chair: Ms Cho, thank you very much for your appearance here this morning. We appreciate it.
Ms Cho: Thank you for the opportunity.
WOLFGANG PUSZTAY
The Chair: The next witness is Wolfgang Pusztay, who is an intended appointee as a member of the Town of Wiarton Police Services Board. Mr Pusztay, would you like to come forward please and take a seat. Welcome to the committee, sir.
Mr Pusztay: Good morning.
The Chair: You have been here for a while so you know how the committee functions. This is a half-hour review, 10 minutes to each party. You were selected for review by the official opposition. We lead off with Mr Grandmaître.
Mr Grandmaître: Do you think that every municipality with a police force or being served by the OPP should be paying its fair share or 100% of whatever services it is receiving in this province?
Mr Pusztay: Pardon me?
Mr Grandmaître: Do you think every municipality being served by the OPP at the present time should be paying 100% of the cost, the full cost of policing?
Mr Pusztay: I understand there is some controversy in Wiarton. My feeling is that anyone who has a contract for services is certainly obligated to follow through with payment, but that would not stop people from lobbying for changes as may be necessary considering statuses in other communities.
Mr Grandmaître: What has been your experience in Wiarton with the police force? What has been your relationship or your experiences? How would you describe your police force?
Mr Pusztay: I think that things have been moving along fairly smoothly. I do not have much contact with the police directly. I see them; they are visible on the highways etc. My interest in being a member of the board is to basically increase my commitment to the community. I am relatively new to the area -- I moved there roughly three years ago -- and I guess, because of my age and having a growing family and doing business in the town of Wiarton, attending church there, I have decided to get more involved. Some of my background has brought me into contact with police, not only in this province but in Alberta, because of my profession etc, and I see the necessity for better understanding and education and awareness of how the community needs to work with the police forces.
Mr Grandmaître: Having lived in your community for only three years, what got you interested in becoming a member of the police services board? How did you apply? What got you interested?
Mr Pusztay: Specifically, I responded to the ad. What struck me was the bold message to get involved with the community, particularly with the police services. As I mentioned, just some things have been going through my life, wanting to become more involved with my community and contribute in some way. I am particularly interested in the police services board, however, because of a concern I have for our youth and the safety of the kids in the area and what we could do, I think at a very early age, in terms of public education, of having that police involvement, to avoid problems at a later age, that sort of thing. I think there is much more that we could do in that regard.
I have been involved with a newspaper publication called the Parent-Child Guidebook. We promoted such programs as community-oriented policing, kids saying no to drugs etc. That gave us some involvement. My wife and I ran this small newspaper and we did have contact with the OPP detachment in Owen Sound, as well as Wiarton, for articles and that sort of thing.
Mr Grandmaître: How could your police force improve this relationship with your youth? Or are they doing it now?
Mr Pusztay: I think, to some extent, there are some good, positive efforts being made to get involved with youth, particularly in regard to the drug and alcohol problems. One thing I would like to see is what more we could do to address some of the obvious problems related to vandalism and kids having a lot of time on their hands, given that Wiarton is a small town. The population size is 2,200 people. I think there are some things the community and the police need to do to make it a safer environment.
Mr Grandmaître: What would be the most serious crimes, or the most repeated crimes in your community?
Mr Pusztay: Drunken driving, I would imagine. As far as the youth are concerned, it would be a fair amount of vandalism, break and enter, senseless stuff.
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Mr Grandmaître: Do you have a pet project? What would you like to accomplish?
Mr Pusztay: It is a bit early for me to say yet. I am not sure what I would address. I think some of that will come out of the meetings with the police force as well as the municipal representatives.
Mr McLean: How far is Wiarton from Owen Sound?
Mr Pusztay: It is about a half-hour drive; I would say 40 kilometres or so.
Mr McLean: Do you work in Owen Sound?
Mr Pusztay: I work out of my home. I have a home office, but I do occasion Owen Sound and the surrounding area.
Mr McLean: Wiarton has its own police force?
Mr Pusztay: No, we do not. We contract OPP services.
Mr McLean: I see. I guess this is now going to happen right across the province, where any municipality that has a contract with the OPP also has a police services board?
Mr Pusztay: That is right.
Mr McLean: How many are going to be on that board?
Mr Pusztay: In our particular board our situation would be the minimum of three: two appointees and a member of council.
Mr McLean: Are the meetings in the daytime or at night?
Mr Pusztay: I am not sure yet. I guess that is to be discussed.
Mr McLean: Really what is happening here is a new service board is being established.
Mr Pusztay: That is right, exactly.
Mr McLean: I wish you luck.
Mr Pusztay: Thank you.
Mr Villeneuve: I have a couple of questions. You know of the situation here last week in downtown Toronto where a police commissioner, I guess in the defence of his business, shot a suspect in an armed robbery. Do you feel he should resign?
Mr Pusztay: To be honest, I do not know very much about the case, other than having heard that he did have a permit to carry a weapon and that he discharged it in the middle of a robbery. I have a problem with the whole idea of people carrying around guns, so for me it was a totally different issue because I see situations happening like we see across the border. That would concern me more so.
I have not really thought a lot about whether or not this person should resign from the board. I can understand why there would be some concern that he be up front with the rest of the board members and establish what the motives were for a licence and that sort of thing.
Mr Marchese: I have one question around employment equity. The new Police Services Act requires every police force in Ontario to develop an employment equity plan and it speaks about three essential components of that:
"(a) the elimination of systemic barriers to the recruitment and promotion of persons who are members of prescribed groups," women, disabled, native persons and visible minorities;
"(b) the implementation of positive measures with respect to the recruitment and promotion of those persons, so as to make the police force more representative of the community or communities it serves; and
"(c) specific goals and timetables with respect to the elimination of systemic barriers...."
What is your view of that and how would you, as a member of the board, if you are supportive, make sure all of this happens?
Mr Pusztay: I am not exactly sure if employment equity or budgeting and employment issues come within the mandate, given that we actually contract for services. But if you ask for my view, I am fully in support of employment equity, particularly with regard to representing the local community, given that our population does have a substantial number of natives, for one thing, and there is obviously the need to have women represented as well.
Mr Marchese: I would point out that even if you are contracting out, you would make these conditions, I would presume, for the hiring of at least the officers you would have in the area serving your communities, that these would be conditions under which you would --
Mr Pusztay: Indeed.
Mr Waters: I believe you are actually the first representative of one of these areas who has come before us where you really do not have anything to do with the budget or the hiring or, it is my understanding, even the equity.
Mr Pusztay: That is right.
Mr Waters: That is all done through the OPP. I find it a curious thing and I am a bit curious. Do you see yourself as maybe more of a liaison between the community and the OPP, trying to set the priorities of the community with the local office?
Mr Pusztay: Yes, I do. I think it is more of a liaison situation. What I would bring to this board is the fact that I am still a relatively young family man with a small business, representing that component of our community. It is an aging community. They would have different concerns, I think, largely expressed by the town council and that kind of thing -- the more established individuals and groups.
As I said earlier, I am concerned that we do not forget the youth in our community and do whatever we can to at least express our opinions and our views so that these things get taken into consideration. Wherever the powers that be make those decisions, at least they would hear from us.
Mr Waters: I guess you would also have the summer problem, as do all of us around Georgian Bay, where you have a great influx of seasonal residents and visitors. Trying to cope with that problem would be maybe one of the things that you would do.
Mr Pusztay: That is right.
Mr Waters: Okay. I congratulate you on wanting to be active in your community. I see that you have an extensive background working with young people, and I think you will do very well with the job.
Mr Pusztay: Thank you.
Mr Frankford: The other appointee who was supposed to come this morning but could not is Mr Davies. Do you know him?
Mr Pusztay: I was trying to recall. I know a Mr Davies who is a school teacher, but I am not sure if he is the same person.
Mr Frankford: No, I think he is a probation officer.
Mr Pusztay: Is he? Okay, someone else.
Mr Frankford: He seems to have a remarkably extensive background in criminology, so I wondered if you knew him and whether you had any plans of how you would coordinate.
Mr Pusztay: No, not at this point.
Mr Grandmaître: The fact is that this is a new police services board. If I can follow up on what Mr Waters was asking you, you will be some kind of watchdog but not a real police services board because, as you have pointed out, you will have nothing to say on the budget, which is most important. Why do you think they asked for a police services board to be established if it is only a watchdog?
Mr Pusztay: I had a look at the act and the need to comply with every community having a police board, and I think it is a way of ensuring that not having your own board is not a way of getting out of the assurance being made that there is community and police cooperation and involvement in providing that service to the community. I see that as a possible way of opting out, and I would be against that.
Mr Grandmaître: What will be the mandate of this new board?
Mr Pusztay: I think the mandate is to present the views and opinions of members of the community as to how they see the police are serving them and whether it is effective, to give ideas for other ways the services could be provided and to make formal recommendations in regard to employment, budget etc. Whether or not it has any teeth at that level is to be decided.
Mr Grandmaître: In other words, you are saying that you will be making recommendations but you will not have any power whatsoever to follow through on those recommendations.
Mr Pusztay: That is right, for the time being. There may be a change where at some point Wiarton does have its own police force again.
Mr Callahan: What is the population of Wiarton?
Mr Pusztay: The signs say 2,200. I think it is probably a bit higher now.
Mr Callahan: We have heard about the cutbacks in the OPP. You are policed by the OPP on a contract basis, are you not?
Mr Pusztay: Right.
Mr Callahan: Do you get 24-hour service?
Mr Pusztay: I really do not think so. I am not sure, though..
Mr Callahan: Obviously there has been a cutback in the --
Mr Pusztay: I do not know if there has been a cutback. I know we have access to the police by a call. The local detachment is not operating, but there is service.
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Mr Callahan: What detachment looks after you?
Mr Pusztay: Wiarton.
Mr Callahan: Wiarton? You are lucky they are within the range of the kilometres they are allowed to travel, I guess.
Mr Pusztay: Yes, right.
Mr Callahan: Is there a stipend paid for sitting on this board?
Mr Pusztay: I believe there is a small stipend; I have not found out what it is.
Mr Callahan: Who pays the stipend?
Mr Pusztay: The municipality.
Mr Callahan: How many people will be sitting on the Wiarton board?
Mr Pusztay: Three.
Mr Callahan: Are they one provincial appointee and --
Mr Pusztay: Two provincial appointees and one from the council.
Mr Callahan: It does not necessarily have that much to do with your appointment or not, but do have you any idea what the cost will be to the 2,200 people of Wiarton to have a police services board?
Mr Pusztay: No, I really do not.
Mr Callahan: Does anybody have that information as to what the cost will be?
Mr Pond: It is a new board. I talked to the town clerk of Wiarton last week. The logistics are still being developed. They really have no feel for it yet.
Mr Callahan: Okay. Its being a small community --
The Chair: You have half a minute.
Mr Callahan: Oh, okay. I guess you know most of the officers who would be involved?
Mr Pusztay: No, actually I do not.
Mr Callahan: My final question in the little time I have left is, did Wiarton Willie really see his shadow?
Mr Pusztay: No.
Mr McLean: Will you be looking at raising the issue of making sure that Wiarton is covered 24 hours a day by the OPP?
Mr Pusztay: I think I would look at it, yes. I guess I would have to find out a lot more as to what is actually going on. You have to appreciate that I have not been involved to this point, so I do not know --
Mr McLean: So your understanding is that the town of Wiarton will now be paying for police services, through the contract.
Mr Pusztay: That is right.
Mr McLean: Have they had a contract in the past?
Mr Pusztay: I guess this is one that has been going on for a few years anyway.
Mr McLean: In your opinion, once all these police services boards are established across the province, will that then mean that all the municipalities that are not paying for police services will now have to pay for police services?
Mr Pusztay: Not necessarily.
Mr McLean: What would be the point of having a board if there was not something to deal with in regard to providing a service?
Mr Pusztay: I think there is more to deal with than the money. The idea for me is that liaison between the community. I do not think it is a very healthy situation to simply have police contracted to provide a service anonymously in a community. I think you need that communication. To me, that is more important.
Mr McLean: So the community of Wiarton, with a population of 2,200, is now going to pay for police services. Is it fair to say that the towns of Bracebridge and Gravenhurst should not have to pay for police services?
Mr Pusztay: No, I do not.
Mr McLean: Do you think that they should pay for police services?
Mr Pusztay: I think everybody has to look at it; I do not know.
Mr McLean: I would understand then that those municipalities that I mentioned will also be having police service boards?
Mr Pusztay: Sure. Everybody will.
Mr McLean: So what they are doing is establishing police services boards across the province and they are going to deal with the funding that is not there.
Mr Pusztay: Possibly.
Mr McLean: Okay, we will see what is happening.
Mr Waters: I would just like to respond somewhat to what Mr McLean was saying. I would like to make sure that it is put on the record that the towns of Bracebridge and Gravenhurst, through the District Municipality of Muskoka Act, have a signed contract with this province that says they get OPP policing for nothing. We took a hell of a beating by taking district government. The only thing that we got was free policing. It is a signed contract. I believe we are the only area of the province that has that.
Mr McLean: But that contract could be changed at any time. It would be unfortunate if it was.
The Chair: Mr Pusztay, that concludes your appearance before the committee. Thank you very much for travelling here today.
There is a note on the bottom of your agenda, on page 1, about Mr Davies who is also supposed to appear here. This is going to be discussed at the subcommittee meeting. We can still have Mr Davies appear if we get off and up and running as soon as the House comes back and we are sitting. I think the date is April 15. We are going to try to schedule Mr Davies to appear before us on that date.
Mr Grandmaître: When is the next subcommittee meeting?
The Chair: Tomorrow. That is my understanding.
Mr Grandmaître: Tomorrow? What time? At 12?
The Chair: The clerk will talk to us later about it.
HARRY ADAMS
The Chair: Mr Adams, welcome to the committee. Harry Adams is an intended appointee as a member of the Nottawasaga Valley Conservation Authority. Mr Adams, you have been selected for review by the third party, a half-hour review. I will look to Mr McLean to begin questioning.
Mr McLean: Welcome, Harry, to the committee. Some time ago we had the Grand River Conservation Authority in. We did an investigation, more or less, into their operation of the authority there. They are very much in favour of the proposal of the Burgar report. You are familiar with the Burgar report? They want to cut the authorities from 33 to 18. The large authorities appear to me to be very much in favour of that, but I would like to get from you for the record an opinion of what the smaller authorities' concerns are with regard to that.
Mr Adams: Yes, I am familiar with the Burgar report. In some cases I have to agree with it. It is no secret that this is the age of restructuring, and the authorities should not be immune to a restructuring process. Nevertheless, in our case, Nottawasaga Valley, because of our geographic situation relative to the Lake Simcoe Region Conservation Authority, we are adamant that this not take place in regard to those two. I believe that in other areas smaller authorities have undertaken and are serious about amalgamation. I believe also that 33 to 13 is a little severe. I cite our particular case in regard to Lake Simcoe. That being as it may, I am out of touch in regard to what has happened with the Burgar report in the last year. But in our case we are adamant that, with the size and scope of Nottawasaga, it is not practical or good sense to be joined with Lake Simcoe. I believe they are of the same opinion.
Mr McLean: With regard to the mandate and role of the conservation authorities, we have known what that has been for the last several years, the partnership they have had with the local municipalities, I think one of the best partnerships ever in the province. With the cutbacks last fall, where I think you were asked to pay back 5% or something, do you believe the role and the mandate of the conservation authorities are still in place as they should be?
Mr Adams: Excuse me, still is which?
Mr McLean: Still in place with regard to the province funding the projects that the local authorities want to continue to do.
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Mr Adams: Yes, I will be particularly happy about this interview this morning if it does nothing else but highlight the importance of the authorities relative to their position at MNR. We seem to have been producing more with less. The obligations relative to the defence of wetlands and developers who want to develop in wetlands have placed a very important role on the authorities. In our particular case, Mr Chairman and Mr Vice-Chairman, you are aware of our position. We have been operating with less and with more obligations. In our situation in the Nottawasaga Valley we have had a rollover of 17 staff in the last two years. It is very difficult to abide by the mandate when you have that kind of turnover. It is basically because of scale. I do not know whether I can make any stronger point than that.
Mr McLean: I want to go on further with that area, the fact that your authority was asked for 10% back in the fall of 1991. The Nottawasaga Valley Conservation Authority has announced that four parks will also be closed again this year. Is that due to the 10% cutback? If you got that, were able to maintain that, would you be able to open those parks this year, or are you looking for further direction from the ministry on how you are going to open them?
Mr Adams: There are two parts to that situation. One was the financial, that we should cut back. I will give you one example. In one park we had a cost of $17,000 for cutting grass. The park was not used that much, so that did not make much sense. We looked at the other three. These are Utopia, Glen Cairn, Carruthers and Edenvale. We saved dollars there, bearing in mind that we had to look at this cutback because we had a $40,000 deficit. That was undertaken. We have another park that is open, that is used and has facilities, New Lowell.
I do not believe that, even if we had the funding, it is our mandate to be in the recreational field. Consequently those parks should be assumed by private operators, if possible, communities that are showing an interest, municipalities, that is. Carruthers is in Nottawasaga township, Edenvale is in Flos township, Utopia is in Essa township. We are looking to these municipalities to provide some assistance in maintaining these facilities. The communities that are affected by these parks are anxious that their municipal governments assume that responsibility.
The Chair: Can I ask a supplementary, Mr McLean, if you do not mind? Are you talking about these municipalities and others assuming ownership or would this be operation on a lease basis or direct ownership?
Mr Adams: Yes, lease in one particular case. Of course, I do not want to bore you with all the details. In one particular case there is a residence in the Carruthers park and the rent from that is $600 a month. The township and the community feel they should have that money to maintain that park. On leasing, maybe we would lease for a dollar, if there was someone who could manage it properly and keep up its operation. Edenvale is another area on the Nottawasaga River. The community is cutting the grass. It is open because of boaters and so on. I do not know whether I have answered your question in regard to leasing.
Mr McLean: You are looking at it.
Mr Adams: Yes, and we are looking at selling as well. Utopia is a large tract of land and the Champlain division of the girl guides is very interested and hopes to proceed to develop that area for girl guides. It is an excellent spot. It is adjacent to the Tiffin centre, the John L. Jose Learning Centre, which is a reality now. In the last two years, due to restraints and so on, there has been a big change in philosophy in the authorities, not only with ours but with others as well.
Mr McLean: I want to clarify. You said Edenvale was in Flos. I think it is in Vespra, is it not?
Mr Adams: No.
Mr McLean: The Edenvale park?
Mr Adams: No, it is in Flos.
Mr McLean: That is on the other side of the road. That is right.
Mr Adams: Yes.
Mr McLean: My note says it is in Vespra, but I thought it was in Flos.
Mr Villeneuve: I come from an area involved with three conservation authorities: Raisin, South Nation and Rideau. We have run into major problems with the Ministry of Natural Resources interpreting the Department of Fisheries and Oceans criteria regarding anything to do with dredging and what have you. We do know that a certain area of the South Nation has been dredged and the aquatic life has improved considerably, but there seems to be a major problem trying to get some of the so-called experts in the field to accept that. They are causing us great concerns and costs involved in providing reasonable drainage. I realize that the authority mandate is to protect personal property and life. In your opinion, is there too much involvement at the bureaucratic level, and in the eight years that you have been a member of the Nottawasaga have you seen that curtail the commonsense approach that I know a lot of the conservation authorities bring forth although bureaucracy stands in the way? Could you elaborate on that a bit and some of the experiences you have had?
Mr Adams: Yes, we have a particular experience at the moment. We have been charged as an authority by the MNR in regard to destroying spawning beds. That particular act you speak of is the one that seems to have all the power and glory. I suppose with the pressure by the sportsmen and so on who are very fussy about fishing and anything that would destroy fishing habitat or spawning beds, you can expect that you are going to be under the gun, as we are, in regard to Bear Creek and our authority. To answer your question, I suppose there are certain rules and stipulations that are heavy-handed. In that particular case, I would agree with you that there should be some leeway.
Mr Villeneuve: As a final supplementary, we have notice from the dredging of the South Nation in that area to prevent some very severe flooding, and that was done back in the late 1970s, that the aquatic activity and the quality of aquatic life has improved since then, yet our experts say you cannot touch the natural, and we wind up with a lot of stagnant water. I do not think it is all that conducive to spawning and to aquatic life, and we have found improvements. If we could only make them realize that.
Mr Adams: It is a contradiction. What is the mandate of the authorities? What is their position? All those who represent membership on all of the various authorities are grass-roots people. They are composed of people who are from the particular areas and have a concern. Therefore, I do not think they are going to be reckless in regard to what they do and what they see as reasonable. So, yes, there is maybe some heavy-handedness in regard to the fisheries.
Mr Waters: I noticed the word "Minesing."
Mr Adams: Yes.
Mr Waters: I have some grave concern. I come from the Muskoka area, and being an MPP I am travelling the roads quite a bit, and on Sundays during the summer I notice four-wheel-drive trucks coming down the highway quite a bit, and they are mud from one end to the other. My concern is the Minesing Swamp. I have reason to believe that this thing is being torn up by these vehicles. I was wondering if you had any comments on what is going on in there.
Mr Adams: If you do not mind, I will give you a long answer. How much time do we have, Mr Chairman?
The Chair: A total of 10 minutes.
Mr Waters: I am really concerned about this.
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Mr Adams: My township is Vesper, and the Minesing Swamp is in that particular township. My family has been in the area for 125 years and the Minesing Swamp is something we know like the back of our hand, for one reason or another. The Minesing Swamp is something the NVCA is very proud of, the fact that we have now acquired 7,000 acres of that 15,000-acre class 1 wetlands.
To answer your question in regard to four-wheel drives, yes, there was a concern and it was very bad for three or four years. We attempted to bar them by digging trenches and anything possible. We have not had the same problems in the last year. I guess there was a generation of people who were very anxious to go in and see how muddy they could get their four-wheel-drives and how far they could go. It was a concern. We attempted to address that concern, but we do not have the same problem today as we had.
Mr Waters: You mentioned the wetlands, and I was wondering how you feel about the new wetlands policy going out in designated, significant wetlands. I would like your opinion on that; also maybe -- I do not know how much time I have -- on one of the other areas. On the south end of Lake Simcoe we have the Holland Marsh. Does the conservation authority have anything to do with trying to save the marsh? Are you people actively working on anything?
Mr Adams: You would have to ask the south Lake Simcoe people that question, but I will say this much for that authority. They have embarked upon a public relations project through TV and so on -- and I think Al has likely seen it -- to draw the attention of John Public to the seriousness of the overloading of fertilizers and so on, which are drifting into Lake Simcoe; of course, not only there but Rice Lake and a lot of other areas.
It is not in our watershed, but I think the general public -- and this is one of the strong factors of the NVCA and other authorities -- as each and every one of you well knows, is seriously concerned about the environment, and the role of the NVCA and others is to protect that.
There is a lot to be done and public awareness is very important. I might add, Mr Chairman, that all the 38 authorities are seriously considering a public relations expenditure to draw attention to the plight of the environment and the role of the authorities. We feel that the only way we ever become recognized by the members in the House is through reading the headlines in one of the three leading daily papers. Therefore, somehow or other we have to get through to the members the message of the situation of the authorities and what the mandate is.
Mr Marchese: Mr Adams, I have two questions, one on the Burgar report. You said you were familiar with it. Could you highlight some of the main themes of that report?
Mr Adams: I have to apologize. I am familiar with it because three years ago it was the topic of conversation. The major theme, of course, is restructuring, that there are too many authorities and that to be more efficient we should shrink from 33 to 13.
Mr McLean: To 18 or 19.
Mr Marchese: Yes, 18.
Mr Adams: That is better. I do not recall the financial aspects of that report. I have to apologize for that.
Mr Marchese: That is okay. Mr McLean asked, in terms of the role of the conservation authority, whether or not the role should continue as it has. Just to add to that, do you think it can be restructured in a way to make it more efficient or do you think it is running efficiently now?
Mr Adams: As past chairman, I have to say it is being run efficiently. There is always room for improvement; as we all know as politicians, with the financial situation the way it is, it is important that we do become efficient. That is when we have a shake-out, which we are having, and I do not find all that much wrong with that.
I wonder, with the important role the authority plays, if in the future it should become a separate entity and not be under the wing as much as it is of the Ministry of Natural Resources. On the other side of the ledger, there is some more cooperation between the authority and MNR. There has been a misunderstanding in the past; I hope that is corrected and that we can work in harmony.
Mr Marchese: Do I have time, Mr Chair?
The Chair: Yes.
Mr Marchese: Okay. Another quick question: The Nottawasaga Valley Conservation Authority announced that four of its parks will remain closed for yet another year. Obviously there are budgetary constraints, financial difficulties. Municipalities are in a difficult position in terms of being able to continue to support it, and provincial governments are under similar constraints. Do you have any ideas about how to deal with those budgetary difficulties that you are experiencing?
Mr Adams: This might be of interest to the committee, before I answer that question. Our budget for this year -- we had a 2.89% increase. In 1991 the municipal contribution was $337,000; this year it is $346,000. We have a total budget of $3.5 million and, of that, $2.4 million is going to the Black Ash Creek project in Collingwood. That has been under way for some dozen years, so we are finally getting off the ground in that regard, and we have to because of funding from the provincial level. In 1991 we had a $1.75-million budget, so we are up to $3.5 million.
I have always felt -- I would be shot, I guess, if I was at home -- that the municipalities have got off fairly lightly -- and this is a pretty bold statement to make -- in regard to their contributions towards the authority. In my mind there is no question. I know in our particular municipality it is $18,000. The city of Barrie, for example, I think is $37,000, and it ranges right down to $200-odd dollars for Medonte township, which is a small portion. In one respect I believe the municipalities could pick up a portion, and I know it is deadly to say that.
Mr Grandmaître: We have made a note.
Mr Adams: Providing the provincial share and our share, what is due the authorities comes our way.
The Chair: I guess you do not plan to run for municipal office again.
Mr Adams: Maybe that is why I am not out, because I have crossed some swords.
Mr McLean: Mr Chairman, I would like a supplementary on that just to clarify it.
The Chair: We are using up time; we cannot get into that. Are you done, Mr Marchese?
Mr Marchese: Yes, I am.
The Chair: Mr Duignan.
Mr Duignan: Thank you. You have answered some of the questions I was going to ask. You have been a member of the conservation authority since 1984, have you?
Mr Adams: Yes.
Mr Duignan: So you have had quite a bit of experience. You are not part of the conservation authority's liaison committee with MNR right now, are you?
Mr Adams: No. As a matter of fact, the chairman and vice-chairman and our solicitor are meeting with MNR this very day, in this very building, I believe, or close to it. No, I am not, as past chairman.
Mr Duignan: Just a quick question on the whole question of funding for the conservation authorities. It has been suggested that the minister provide funding on a percentage of the total funding, not on the various programs offered by the conservation authority. Have you an opinion on how the authority should be funded and how much and by whom?
Mr Adams: I am not an economist by any stretch of the imagination, and I do not think I would be prepared to make a comment on that question. I would be just swimming and I might drown.
The Chair: I am going to stretch the rules for the Vice-Chairman and allow him a quick supplementary.
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Mr McLean: I really wanted a clarification on Mr Marchese's question. On the $2.4 million that is being spent for the Black Ash Creek, what percentage of that is the town of Collingwood picking up? I think it should be made clear that the local, benefiting municipality picks up the share.
Mr Adams: It is 33%.
Mr McLean: In essence, 33% of the $2.4 million will be picked up.
Mr Adams: I would appreciate your checking that. I am not positive.
Mr McLean: I just want to make clear that it is not the province that is paying that $2.4 million; the local municipality is paying its levy, plus an extra, benefiting levy.
Mr Adams: There is the formula, of course.
Mr Grandmaître: One quick question: Mr Adams, as you have pointed out, one of the Burgar report recommendations would be to diminish -- let me see. At the present time, how many authorities are there?
Mr Adams: There are 38.
Mr Grandmaître: There are 38, not 33, in southern Ontario. Okay. What would be the effect of the Burgar recommendation? What effect would it have if authorities would amalgamate with adjacent neighbours? What would be, in your mind, the effect of this amalgamation?
Mr Adams: At the outset, I made the statement that I am not totally in disagreement with the Burgar report. Mr Chairman, you know, I believe, and all members know that Simcoe county has undergone restructuring. As warden in 1989, I was involved with the beginning of that, and our council is 100% in favour of restructuring. I have to agree with some aspects. There are small authorities where it would be more advantageous to be amalgamated -- I do not think there is any question about that -- to be more efficient in regard to numbers etc. It is very minor, but there is a cost factor.
On the other side of the ledger, to be as severe as the Burgar report I think would do an awful lot of damage to authorities. Morally, it is not right and it is not practical. I cited our situation in regard to the south of Lake Simcoe. They are too large to be amalgamated. There is a middle ground, and I expect common sense would steer us that way.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr Adams. We very much appreciate your appearance here today and wish you well.
MICHAEL GRAINGER
The Chair: Our next witness here today is Michael Grainger. Would you like to come forward, Mr Grainger, please. Welcome to Queen's Park. It is good to see you here. Mr Grainger is an intended appointee to the Kingston, Frontenac, Lennox and Addington District Health Council. He has been selected for review by the Conservative Party. Mr McLean or Mr Villeneuve, would you like to start out?
Mr McLean: Is the district health council affiliated in any way with the Ottawa district hospital? Is this part of the mandate with regard to the overall picture of the district health council?
Mr Grainger: This is something, sir, I would not be in a position to answer. I am a new member of the county council and I have just been selected for this board. This is my first meeting in any regard to the health council.
Mr McLean: Did the county council recommend your appointment?
Mr Grainger: Yes, it did.
Mr McLean: Which, Frontenac county?
Mr Grainger: Yes, sir.
Mr McLean: And are you a reeve or a deputy reeve of a municipality?
Mr Grainger: Deputy reeve.
Mr McLean: You were in council before that, were you?
Mr Grainger: Yes.
Mr McLean: I just got your curriculum vitae: Sydenham, Ontario. Do you have anything special you would like to see take place with regard to the district health council you are going to be part of?
Mr Grainger: No, not in particular. I am interested in the way dollars are spent re hospitals and health care. As I say, to put a real finger on anything specific, I cannot really say.
Mr McLean: You would be somewhat familiar with the district health council. The district health council normally makes recommendations to the ministry if it is looking for some changes in different aspects of health care. In your opinion, then, do you feel the district health council has an input into what the ministry is doing? Do you figure that the hospitals, the administrators, are still having more input than the district health council?
Mr Grainger: I would expect that administrators are having more impact.
Mr McLean: Do you know any other members who are on the district health council?
Mr Grainger: No, I do not.
Mr Villeneuve: Mr Grainger, we had a very serious situation in the Ottawa area. I represent a riding south of the Ottawa area that is very rural, like the area you come from. The problem was meningitis. The Ottawa area had a blanket immunization program, to the point where the medical practitioners, the private doctors, in the riding I represent did not even have a vaccine to do what they saw as their professional duty to treat their patients.
In your opinion, as someone who will be sitting on the district health council, how would you view that type of situation where in one area you have everyone being immunized and there is an imaginary line that separates the Ottawa-Carleton area from the riding I represent, which is S-D-G & and East Grenville, and the doctors cannot even get the medication or the inoculant to do their professional business? Would that annoy you?
Mr Grainger: It would. Once again, as I understand it, that inoculant was very scarce; it was very hard to come by. Was there not a difficulty in procuring that?
Mr Villeneuve: There was not for the government; there was for the private medical practitioner. That says there is a rule for the government and a rule for everyone else. That had me concerned. I am asking you, as a dairy farmer and someone who has been close to the grass roots, how that would affect you as a taxpayer and a member of the district health council.
Mr Grainger: I would be very upset about the whole thing. As to what procedure I would like to enact, I am not certain. Certainly the health council should have some jurisdiction there to see that the required vaccine is distributed where it should be.
Mr Frankford: Can you give us some idea of the area covered by the health council?
Mr Grainger: There are 16 municipalities represented in Frontenac county. I presume all of that area would be under the scope of the health council.
Mr Frankford: Including the city of Kingston?
Mr Grainger: No. The city of Kingston, I am quite certain, would not be represented by the county in the same manner.
Mr Frankford: But the district health council would include Kingston, Frontenac, Lennox and Addington.
Mr Grainger: It could, but Frontenac county council does not involve the city of Kingston.
Mr Pond: That may be technically correct. I am not denying that, though this DHC does have a lot to do with Kingston General Hospital, so we have to be careful here. It may not be the city of Kingston that is technically under this DHC's jurisdiction, but medical facilities in the Kingston area do come under the jurisdiction of this DHC.
Mr Frankford: This district health council is not just for your county; this is several counties. I stand to be corrected, but I assume it includes the city of Kingston.
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Mr Grainger: It is quite possible but I am just saying that Frontenac county council is an entity in itself. It does not belong to or with the city of Kingston.
Mr Frankford: Right. But you have been appointed as a --
Mr Grainger: Representative of.
Mr Frankford: -- political representative on this council which has several types of appointees. It also has provider appointees. You will now in fact be having input into the health resources in a broad area, including the city of Kingston with its teaching hospitals.
Mr Grainger: Right.
Mr Frankford: Could you give us some idea of what you feel would be the local needs in your county for health?
Mr Grainger: I am sure if I come back a year from today I could much better answer your question but I have not even had a meeting with the council as of yet. I am just very naïve. I am not certain.
Mr Frankford: Okay. You mentioned finance. I guess you would be looking for an efficient use of funds.
Mr Grainger: Exactly.
Mr Frankford: And more funds maybe.
Mr Grainger: And where the funds are spent and how wisely they are spent.
Mr Frankford: Although decisions you make will influence the spending of those funds, they on the whole will not generate funds. Do you have any awareness of the use of medical facilities in Kingston and in the area by Americans from across the border?
Mr Grainger: No, I would not.
Mr Frankford: Presumably there is some, is there not?
Mr Grainger: Very little, from the knowledge I would have.
Mr Frankford: The hinterland there in New York state is rather underpopulated, is it not?
Mr Grainger: Yes, that is true.
Mr Frankford: I would think that there is actually potential for cross-border shopping by Americans.
Mr Grainger: If there is, it certainly has not made the headlines, let's put it that way. The potential is probably there.
Mr Frankford: Would this perhaps be something you could encourage at the council to increase the revenue?
Mr Grainger: It is certainly a thought, yes. It is a good idea.
Ms S. Murdock: I know sometimes these are intimidating or seem to be intimidating, but we are actually just as interested in you as in finding out more about what has to be done.
District health councils for me are a really important issue up in my area and the role that they play now but also the role they are going to be playing in the future. I am wondering if you have any thoughts on what that role will be and whether you, in your role as a council member, will be looking at it more from a perspective of Frontenac county or from a perspective of the medical facilities or needs of the entire district.
Mr Grainger: Now, the entire district, do you mean other than Frontenac county?
Ms S. Murdock: Of the district health council. My understanding is, you are going to be sitting on a district health council that covers the medical needs, regardless of what they are, of a large area. The reason you will be on there is because you are a councillor from Frontenac.
Mr Grainger: Right.
Ms S. Murdock: I guess I see the position on the district health council as being one where, although you are wearing that hat of Frontenac, your mandate would be different than a Frontenac councillor's.
Mr Grainger: Simply because there are so many districts or regions involved, is that what you mean, other than just Frontenac?
Ms S. Murdock: I am obviously not saying it very well. You stated that one of your main concerns on this was financial, that you want to look at the money, which of course I can fully understand, given the cost of health care. Having said that, then you will be looking at it in terms of what it is going to cost Frontenac.
Mr Grainger: Right.
Ms S. Murdock: But that your mandate is not just parochial.
Mr Grainger: Yes, sure, wider.
Ms S. Murdock: Your mandate is larger. I am wondering how you are going to be able to differentiate that or what you think of it in terms of what the district health council's mandate is. No?
Mr Grainger: No, I would not say no. I am not certain how I would personally view that. It certainly would have to do with the population, I suppose, and the number of people from the district, and I am not certain even of the district that it covers.
Ms S. Murdock: I know that as far as the district health council's future role is concerned, decisions regarding specific areas will not be made so centrally. It may not take the same form as the district health councils at present but there are going to be some decision-making processes in terms of money allocation and individual needs of the community. That is why I think it is really important, and why I have been asking the questions, that the needs of an entire area have to be looked at even more than the individual needs of a particular area.
Mr Grainger: You are saying possibly because it might be more sparsely populated?
Ms S. Murdock: No, I am from the north, so when you talk about sparse population I know exactly what it is like. For instance, we have a cancer care treatment centre in my riding that covers all of northeastern Ontario, so it is really important in my community that the cancer care treatment services and the support services are provided. Our district health council has to look at the whole area for all of northeastern Ontario, basically, in making its decisions. I am wondering how you are going to do that or how you see your role in that for your whole area -- and I am not familiar with your area at all, so I really do not know what its situation is in terms of population.
Mr Grainger: I cannot directly answer that because I would have to wait and see how things fall into place.
Ms S. Murdock: Well, good luck.
Mr Grainger: Thank you.
Mr Callahan: On June 19, 1991, this standing committee reviewed the order-in-council appointment of a Catherine Wetter as chair of the District Health Council of Eastern Ontario. She indicated that the ministry often failed to respond at all to reports submitted by her DHC. In her words, "The report seemed to disappear into a black hole."
The reason I raise that is because we have a district health council in my community that had been looking at a health facility on 43 acres of land that was in fact owned by the Chinguacousy health services board. It had gotten to the stage of a model and was ready to go into the ground. Now I understand it is just being ignored. Having told you that, I ask if you are still interested in being a representative on the district health council, flapping your wings and getting no place.
Mr Grandmaître: That is a leading question.
Mr Grainger: I think that is one of the reasons I ran as a municipal politician, because I disagreed with some of the practices that were being practised in our municipality. I felt that was the only way that some changes might possibly be made: by, as you say, flapping your wings and making yourself heard. If somebody does not get out there and raise a stink, so to speak, who is going to take the bull by the horns and at least make these issues known?
Mr Callahan: That was one of the concerns of AMO, that the people on the district health council were not elected and therefore were not accountable to the people of the community, but could in fact have an effect on the decisions made by elected bodies in terms of how dollars were spent.
In fact that has happened in my community. The regional government has had some $9 million just sitting there waiting to plow into this project and thus far the project has become nothing more than a flapping-wing situation for a community that is now 190,000 people strong with one hospital. I am saying this for your benefit, Frances, and when you read this I hope you take note of what I am saying, because the people of Brampton are very upset that there is not something happening.
Do you really think that getting on the district health council is going to give you an opportunity to further the health needs of that community? I mean, recognizing what is going on right now in terms of what projects are being recognized by the minister from what the district health council has suggested, is there really any need or any purpose for district health councils any more?
Mr Grainger: It is rather obvious that you know a lot more about the situation than I do.
Mr Callahan: I am also very frustrated.
Mr Grainger: I can understand that.
Mr Callahan: What is your understanding of DHCs vis-à-vis the ministry? How do you see them functioning?
Mr Grainger: I certainly have not spent any time dwelling on this at all because, as I told you earlier, it is entirely new to me.
Mr Callahan: I would hesitate to offer you any advice but I will anyway. After you have met with us today and had our questions asked of you, I would suggest that you have lunch with some of your colleagues on the district health council and find out just how they believe the situation is working. It certainly was a good idea when it started, in terms of district health councils approving of something before the ministry started funding, but now it has just become nothing more than a stall tactic, I hate to say, and I say that with all due respect to these men and women who have offered their time and effort to work on these district health councils, many times without any great thanks. They are simply being cut off; they are nothing more than mere smoke and mirrors.
I would hope that you would meet with your colleagues on the district health council. If I am wrong perhaps they will send me their cards and letters telling me that I do not know what I am talking about, but if I am right, I would hope that you and your colleagues would raise blank, blank with the ministry to make certain they do come back to the role they are supposed to carry out.
Mr Grainger: Your feeling is that the health council is serving but very little purpose --
Mr Callahan: I think they are being ignored and that disturbs me. As I say, I have to use the particular example of my community where we have 45 or 46 acres of land. We have had it for 20 years, and we probably could have built our own hospital. We got within a hair's breadth of getting it built and suddenly it does not happen any more; it is not going to happen. The minister does not know anything about it and when you ask her about it she says she will find out and she does not.
Mr Duignan: Why didn't you do something about it when you were in power?
Mr Callahan: Mr Duignan says that my government did not do anything about it. My government carried it forward to that point, and had the people of Ontario not been foolish enough to take that excursion into fantasyland, the thing would have in fact be built. I do not normally get partisan at these things but --
Interjections.
The Chair: I think Mr Callahan was a little provoked, but at the same time perhaps his comments were provocative as well.
In any event, Mr Grainger, thank you for travelling all the way up here today. We very much appreciate it and wish you well with your new responsibilities.
Mr Grainger: Thank you kindly, and maybe I can report back some time and have something positive to speak about.
Mr Callahan: Let us know how it is.
The Chair: Thanks again. That concludes our agenda for this morning. We will break for lunch now and reconvene at 2 o'clock.
The committee recessed at 1144.
AFTERNOON SITTING
The committee resumed at 1407.
The Chair: Could we come to order, please. Before we get under way with our first witness, I want to indicate to members that we have received a memorandum from Susan Colley, the executive assistant to the Minister of Health, with respect to our review of Meerai Cho this morning, the appointee to the council of the College of Nurses of Ontario. She is taking exception, I guess is not too strong a description, to a couple of points that were raised this morning during the discussion.
The clerk will circulate this memo, but I have talked to Dave Pond, our researcher, about the materials and David stands by his materials and information provided to us in the research documents. Even though Ms Colley is taking exception to some of the facts that were brought forward, we believe at this stage that she is incorrect and not our researcher.
What we are going to do is respond to this. We will send the memo around to the members and respond to it with a copy of David's research document. Okay? We will circulate this a little later.
Mr Grandmaître: Will we discuss this in open meeting, Mr Chair, or what?
The Chair: After you take a look at the memo, if you think it is necessary, we will see what kind of response we get back from Ms Colley. If the record has to be corrected, we can correct the record.
Mr Grandmaître: Okay.
ALOK MUKHERJEE
The Chair: Alok Mukherjee. I hope I am pronouncing your name correctly.
Mr Mukherjee: Almost correctly.
The Chair: Mr Mukherjee, welcome to the committee. We appreciate your appearance here this afternoon. This is a half-hour review. You have been selected for review by the government party and I look to someone on the government's side to begin questioning. Mr Marchese.
Mr Marchese: A hundred per cent correct. Good to have you here, Alok. One of the concerns many of the members have with the Ontario Human Rights Commission altogether has to do with the backlog, and I am sure you are very well aware of that. In spite of all the efforts that have been made over the years, the backlog is still very large, little progress has been made in reducing it, and the continued backlog problem amounted to a failure to enforce the Human Rights Code properly.
The government has made some response to that and hired a team of 33 public servants to deal with that. Deadlines for closing all cases are to be established and all that. In addition, the minister has announced a task force to conduct a comprehensive review of the enforcement procedures.
Can you comment on the history of all that? Can you even comment to what we are doing, from your point of view, wondering whether or not we are on the right track, whether or not there are other suggestions that you can make about how to deal with it, or perhaps identify other problems you think we have not dealt with?
Mr Mukherjee: Obviously the very important question is that there have been concerns for a long time in the communities about the backlog of cases that have been outstanding anywhere from six months to three years.
The initiatives that have been taken -- and since I am not a part of the commission, I can only speak from what I know from outside -- seem to be producing at least some result in terms of beginning to reduce that backlog. From what I gather, initiatives such as case management and early settlement initiatives and Project 1000 have led to some significant decline in the backlog.
I think we have to keep in mind also that while we may, through special or ad hoc initiatives like that, reduce the existing backlog, if we do a good and effective job of protecting and enforcing human rights, complaints will increase. As more and more people become aware of their rights and the remedies available, they will come forward.
I think we have to think in several tracks. One of them is to take whatever emergency measures are needed to reduce the existing backlog. The other is to then begin to think organizationally on how we can improve the effectiveness of the way the commissioners function so that we do not get into this situation once in a while and then have to look at additional resources, additional people, emergency responses to reduce the backlog.
My feeling is that we have to take a serious look at how the commission has been working, so that we can take preventive measures, one of which I think is looking much more closely than I think the commission has at systemic issues, which I believe are most often the cause of the complaint. I think we have spent in this province considerable resources in dealing with individual cases, but unless we address the systemic issues those cases will continue to come forward.
In the long run, preventive measures such as initiating or looking at public policy issues that come out of individual complaints and dealing with them is worth serious consideration. I think in that respect the work that the Cornish task force is doing may be of some help in identifying some of the areas where we need to take the systemic route as opposed to handling individual cases only.
I think there are several things. One is giving priority to systemic complaints, addressing them effectively. The other is taking a serious look at how the commission has functioned: allocation of resources, decision-making structures, the role of the commissioners, having a comprehensive or a coherent strategic vision for the commission. I believe those are things that have not been done as well as they could have been done in the past, and my sense is, with the task force and all that, that there is an attempt now to take a more comprehensive look at the commission.
Mr Marchese: You raised the question of whether or not the commission should be dealing with individual cases or should be attempting to deal with systemic problems, and this is a question that a number of other people have raised in the past. Do you think that by empowering the commission with that, it could slow down the backlog even further, at least in the short run, or do you think that somebody else in provincial government should be empowered to deal with this? Can the commission do that alone and so on? You might want to comment on that.
Mr Mukherjee: I do not believe they are either/or. I think it is important to take action in the case of individual complaints, if people have that right and it is an obligation to respond to that. My feeling is that if we keep responding only to individual complaints and do not pay sufficient attention to their root source, which is the systems and structures and the way we have done things that lead to discrimination, we will never be able to prevent the likelihood of individual complaints.
My other feeling is that the commission has focused its attention primarily on individual cases, and it has begun to look at systemic cases. I think we need to increase that aspect of the commission's function.
Mr Marchese: You have worked in the field of anti-racist education for quite some time, and you obviously have a lot of contacts in the field. What kinds of experiences do some of the people you are talking to or meeting with have with the Ontario Human Rights Commission, positive or negative?
Mr Mukherjee: It depends. When I was with the Toronto board as race relations adviser and we were setting up some employment equity programs, I must say that I had excellent cooperation from the officials in the commission in helping me to develop the workforce survey instruments, in processing the legal requirements quickly so that we could get on with it. On the other hand, where complaints by individual employees were concerned, which I also had to deal with, I thought the time taken and the process were both long and complex. So I will make a distinction between the commission's role in helping organizations when a personal contact is made as opposed to resolving complaints, and the delay I thought was inordinate.
I have had some conversations just a couple of weeks ago with a former teacher. She has not even had an interview, and her complaint has been two years old, so I think that is the problem.
Mr Marchese: Mr Chairman, other members have questions.
The Chair: We have another minute if there is a member of the government group -- Mr Waters, do you have a quick question?
Mr Waters: No, I was just sitting here reading over your résumé and I was thoroughly impressed with it all. I would just wish you well in your endeavours. Hopefully we will have the answer on this this afternoon and you will move on with what you can do for us.
Mr Mukherjee: Thank you very much.
The Chair: We have Mr Callahan and Mr Ruprecht. Mr Callahan first.
Mr Callahan: Mr Mukherjee, do you believe in gag orders? Do you know what a gag order is?
Mr Mukherjee: Yes.
Mr Callahan: What do you think a gag order is?
Mr Mukherjee: A gag order is when neither party is allowed to speak on the resolution or disposition of the case.
Mr Callahan: Okay, you are quite right. Do you believe in gag orders?
Mr Mukherjee: I have difficulties with them.
Mr Callahan: In other words, if the --
Mr Mukherjee: But I hesitate to give you a blanket answer, because it would depend so much on the individual case.
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Mr Callahan: The reason I ask is that you gave, I thought, a very sensitive and considered answer to Mr Marchese about how you felt that the end of the rainbow -- that to eliminate racism would be not just to continue to make settlements but to try to educate and discover the reasons people conduct themselves that way.
It seems to me that every time a gag order is made on the parties to a settlement it does nothing to further that objective. It is a payoff and does not get at the root of what causes racism. You have given a good answer there too, and I think an honest one, that you do not believe in gag orders per se but you do not want to make a general statement as to whether you would support the elimination of gag orders.
Mr Mukherjee: I said I had some problems with them precisely for the reasons you have said, that systemic cases, particularly if well publicized and sensitively publicized, could play an educational role. From the outside, I was somewhat surprised when I read about a couple of cases where a decision was made not to publicize them because I thought they could have had an educational impact. However, I am not privy to the considerations that led to the decision not to publicize them.
Mr Callahan: It would seem to me that gag orders have the additional negative impact of making the public very suspicious about what is going on within the framework of this board. Of course, that in itself does not create a fair and fertile atmosphere for us all to understand one another and get rid of some of this childishness of being racist.
I appreciate your candid comments. I hope that, as a member of the board, you would encourage the others on the board because obviously those who are presently on the board must have been privy to some of these gag orders. If that continues, the public will become terribly disenchanted with the whole process and instead of achieving a harmony I think we all like to achieve as best we can as human beings, we are perhaps going to create a situation where that is not going to be the case. I would like to yield to my colleague for a few minutes as well.
Mr Ruprecht: Mr Mukherjee, I see that you produced a wonderful résumé and I am looking at the advocacy part on your last page --
Mr Marchese: Is he qualified?
Mr Ruprecht: Pardon? Oh, I see. Mr Marchese is --
Mr Marchese: Just making reference to your comments in the morning.
Mr Ruprecht: No, I do not want to shout at you this afternoon.
You indicated here that you are not only sensitive in helping the south Asian community, but you have also provided some leadership and advocacy for black educators in Nova Scotia. You have also played a leadership role in the financial redress issue of the National Association of Japanese Canadians. What leadership role did you play with black educators in Nova Scotia?
Mr Mukherjee: I was invited by the Black Educators Association in Nova Scotia. I should tell you that is the umbrella body of educators for indigenous blacks in Nova Scotia. They invited me to come and help them through a three-day process of strategizing and developing an approach that they could use to work more effectively on the issues that, as you are well aware, have been agitating the black community in Nova Scotia. In effect, I took them through a whole process of thinking through and prioritizing the issues and developing an approach that they could use effectively with the Nova Scotia society as well as the government in getting some responses to --
Mr Ruprecht: Then you played a role with the Japanese Canadians, I assume.
Mr Mukherjee: Yes. I was at that time a member of the city of Toronto mayor's committee. This goes back to the 1980s, and the representatives of the National Association of Japanese Canadians came to make a presentation to the mayor's committee for support. What had been happening is that in most cases where the council or the committee went to make a presentation, they got expressions of support, such as a resolution saying, "Yes, we support you." What they were looking for was some financial support in order to be able to carry out an audit of the kind of dollar amounts they should be negotiating with the federal government. I worked with the mayor's committee to provide them with the funding in order that they could hire an auditor to carry out such an audit.
Mr Ruprecht: Do you then believe the Ukrainians, the Italians, the Jews and the Germans should be in a similar situation because of the "policies" that were enforced throughout the Second World War? Would you be an advocate for that as well, or did you just separate the Japanese Canadians for special treatment?
Mr Mukherjee: I do not know if it was special treatment.
Mr Ruprecht: By special treatment, to clarify this, I mean to get financial compensation. My question would be, would you then be an advocate for a financial compensation for those communities which also claim that they wish to have financial compensation, namely, the Ukrainians, the Italians -- I am not sure about the Germans and the Jews, but certainly there have been some rumours in those communities as well.
Mr Mukherjee: I think it is very important to be sensitive to the specifics of each situation. What we were dealing with here in the case of Japanese Canadians was a legal action against a group of Canadians to deprive them of their rights to property and livelihood and so on. If there are other groups -- and I think we are going through a similar kind of discussion in a much more profound way with respect to the rights of the aboriginal communities -- I think we have to look at each case on its own merits and on the specifics of the situation. If there are other communities who can come up and show they were treated the way the Japanese Canadians were treated, I think society will have an obligation to look at that. I would not give a more definite response with respect to the specific communities you have mentioned, but I think as a community, as a society, that believes in civilized values, we will have to look at the specifics of each situation.
Mr Ruprecht: Do you remember what the Japanese Canadians received from the federal government for compensation?
Mr Mukherjee: I do not remember the exact dollar amounts. I am a bit concerned that one of the things that was part of the settlement has fallen victim to the financial situation, namely, the human rights and race relations institute that was to have been established as a result.
Mr Villeneuve: Mr Mukherjee, you have a very impressive résumé. As a member of the Ontario Human Rights Commission, you will be asked to deal with a number of very difficult issues. I think one of them would be some of the alleged activities that pertain to policing. Others would be decisions by school boards and what have you. Could you comment as to your thoughts on some of the decisions, particularly as they have affected our school boards, particularly in the city of Toronto, where we have multicultural scenarios? Possibly your comments would help to enlighten us as to your thoughts in this direction.
Mr Mukherjee: I would love to talk about the Toronto Board of Education. I worked there for many years.
Mr Villeneuve: I thought you might.
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Mr Mukherjee: I think what we are talking about when we talk about human rights and so on is attempting to create an equitable society where individuals, men and women, regardless of which group they come from, have equal access to opportunities and equal results in terms of those opportunities.
With regard to the Toronto board specifically and the school system generally, I think there are some disturbing issues that we need to look at, issues of access and equity with regard to who gets to work, who gets to do what, what education is provided, how relevant they are to the needs of all children, and how sensitive and reflective they are of the population being educated.
While we have had some success provincially -- because I know of other boards of education; just a few weeks ago I was in west Parry Sound working with the board there, and as you may know, west Parry Sound has five native bands surrounding it -- I think we have to take a very serious look at how appropriate what is in the curriculum and how it is delivered is to today's society and how well it meets the expectations that today's children have.
I give you an example that comes to my mind. As you know, February is Black History Month in school boards in most parts of the province. We had a couple of other important events at the same time as well, such as Remembrance Day and the 40th anniversary of Queen Elizabeth's becoming queen. My own son came home and said, "Why is it that my school had an assembly for Remembrance Day and for Queen Elizabeth's 40th anniversary, but nothing for Black History Month?" I think when we miss out like that, we give some messages to children. We have to ask ourselves, what is that message and how sensitive is that to the population of today? So we have some work to do.
I believe progress has been made. For example, in the Toronto board and the North York board and so on, there are reports and there are implementation policies around the education of black children. In Toronto there is now a committee on the education of native children, and a native studies curriculum has been developed. There is an employment equity program in place to make sure that people from a variety of backgrounds are hired and are available as role models in the classroom.
What is frustrating is how long it takes. What is frustrating is that people seem to have to keep on fighting in order to go from step A to step B. I think we have to get to a situation where that does not have to happen. That says to me that government, for example, has a responsibility to give some guidelines and have some requirements that are very explicit and that are backed up with resources.
It says to me that teacher training colleges have a responsibility. I was speaking to students at the faculty of education the other day on anti-racist education. It turned out that I was there because students had asked for it, not because teaching about race and gender and discrimination was part of the training they were getting. So I think we have to take a serious look at all those things.
That says to me also that we need to develop a very comprehensive notion of what equity is, what we mean by it and what the various areas are in which we need to do work in order to get there.
Mr Villeneuve: You have touched on some of the native issues, but I will take maybe one incident as it made some headlines several years ago: the ceremonial dagger. A great deal of media coverage was given to it. Do you feel the right decisions were made at that time? If you had been a member of the human rights commission at that time, how would you have perceived this to be, or is this important to you?
Mr Mukherjee: It is important. In fact, we had to deal with it at the board and I thought we became too cautious in that we decided not to make a decision and rather wait for somebody else to make a decision. The Peel board case was going through the channels and we decided to wait for the outcome of that case. We had a good debate at the board. My view, when the director asked me how the dagger issue should be resolved, was twofold: first, that if it was an integral part of the religious practices of that group we had an obligation to accept and recognize that; and second, if we opened a dialogue with the Sikh community, it would be possible to come up with a solution whereby it would not be necessary for children to carry the full-size dagger that was causing so much problem. There may be other symbolic ways the community might cooperate with us to resolve that.
The first thing was for people to get over the mental obstacle. That was a big problem. They did not want even to deal with the issue. We heard from a number of people in the administration who saw the dagger as an offensive weapon that might cause damage or violence, when history showed that the dagger had never been used in any fight in any school. The revelation to me was that before we take any legal route we had an educational role to play here with people in positions of power whose immediate response was thoughtless and expressive of fear so that they could not get to the next step and say, "All right, what is it that we need to do here to respect the rights of the community?"
Mr Villeneuve: Would you feel the same way about, say, the Lord's Prayer for those who follow the Christian observance?
Mr Mukherjee: I thought the solution we came up with, not just in the Toronto board but in several boards, was the right one in that we developed a book of readings and prayers, of which the Lord's Prayer is an important part. It gives schools the opportunity to expose children to the prayers and spiritual readings of a variety of religious backgrounds and communities. I think that was a creative solution. It did not reject the Lord's Prayer; we do not have to give up all the traditions; but it said that in today's society we need to broaden that. That is what we did and I thought that was the right way to go.
The Chair: Time for one quick question, Mr McLean.
Mr McLean: You very strongly identify equal opportunity for all. On the application to the boards and commissions there are four or five different questions to answer with regard to different minorities. Do you agree that on an application they should tick off what their minority is or whether they are not minority?
Mr Mukherjee: I hope we would need to ask those questions for a temporary period of time. Collecting information is a troublesome issue. The problem is that if we do not have the information we do not know if we are achieving the results we are seeking. At the same time, if we ask the questions there are people who will feel offended. So I think we need to be very clear as to why we are doing this and that this is time-specific. Once we have collected enough information so that we know the trends, we should be able to then come up with solutions and not confuse data gathering as the only response to seeking equity; data gathering not for its own sake but for a purpose. That purpose has to be time-bound and time-specific.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr Mukherjee. We appreciate your appearance here today and wish you well.
Mr Mukherjee: Thank you very much.
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The Chair: With the consent of members, I would like to just very briefly deviate from the agenda before we deal with concurrences and ask Marilyn Roycroft, who is replacing Carol Phillips in the appointments secretariat, to just come up and say hello to the committee in a formal way. I, through the clerk, assured Marilyn there would be no questions. I do not think it would be fair to her, being new in the role, but if we have any comments we would like very briefly to direct her way, that is fine. I am sure she would appreciate receiving them. Marilyn, do you have anything you would like to say at this juncture?
Ms Roycroft: I just want to say I appreciated very much the opportunity to be here today and watch the committee in action. I hope to be here again when you reconvene after the House comes back. I relayed that I would prefer not to take questions at this point, mainly because I am actually not officially here until next week, but I am certainly prepared to meet with any of you or hear from any of you at that point, and I will be in the office full-time at that point.
Interjection.
Ms Roycroft: That has been said to me before this week.
Mr Callahan: Where is your office?
Ms Roycroft: In the Mowat Block.
The Chair: Just for my own personal information, Marilyn, what were you doing prior to this appointment?
Ms Roycroft: I spent the last seven years working with the Federation of Women Teachers' Associations of Ontario. I did public relations and political action with them. Some of the members here may remember I spent a number of years in the mid-1970s here at Queen's Park as a researcher, so I am familiar with some of the faces. I am looking forward to coming back, so I will see you in a few short weeks.
The Chair: Congratulations, and we look forward to working with you.
Ms Roycroft: Thank you very much.
The Chair: The next matter on the agenda is concurrences. We can deal with them, as most members are familiar with, as a block or we can do them on an individual basis, if one member requests they be done individually. If not, we will deal with them as a group.
What is the feeling? Can we have a motion to concur with all of the --
Mr McLean: Mr Chair, are you looking at that memo we got?
The Chair: I am going back to the agenda now and then we can deal with the memo. If we can have a motion to concur with the appointments before us today.
Mr McLean: Are we dealing with them individually or all of them at one time?
The Chair: That is the question I just posed before. If any member wishes to deal with them individually, we have to deal with them individually.
Mr McLean: I do. I want them dealt with individually.
The Chair: All right. We will turn to the agenda. I am looking for a motion to concur with the appointment of Meerai Cho to the council of the College of Nurses of Ontario.
Mr Waters moves that the committee concur in the appointment of Meerai Cho.
Motion agreed to.
The Chair: The next one is Wolfgang Pusztay to the Town of Wiarton Police Services Board. Do we have a motion to concur with that appointment?
Mr Frankford moves that the committee concur in the appointment of Wolfgang Pusztay.
Motion agreed to.
The Chair: Motion for Harry Adams to the Nottawasaga Valley Conservation Authority.
Mr Waters moves that the committee concur in the appointment of Harry Adams.
Motion agreed to.
The Chair: Next we need a motion for Michael Grainger to the Kingston, Frontenac, Lennox and Addington District Health Council.
Mr Waters moves that the committee concur in the appointment of Michael Grainger.
Mr Marchese: For clarity, do we have to approve that appointment, given that it is not something we approve or disapprove of necessarily?
The Chair: That is a good question, but since we did call it before us and it is an order-in-council appointee, I believe we are required to do so, although, as we indicated, it should not and hopefully will not be a practice to call those sorts of appointees before us in the future. Was that the point you were making?
Ms S. Murdock: That was essentially what I was going to say, in that if it is something beyond our ken, if a municipality has power to make the appointment, then I do not know why we spent -- not that it was not interesting talking to Mr Grainger, but I do not know why we spent our time to do it.
Mr Callahan: Because I sent a message to Frances --
Ms Murdock: I would point out, though, Mr Chair, that in item 5, "statement of criteria by which intended candidate was chosen," it does state that, "The representatives must be involved in municipal government and interested in serving on the district health council." Based on the questions this morning, I have some difficulty in seeing the interest that was demonstrated by the candidate. I would just like to put that on the record.
The Chair: Your views are noted. I might say, in the presence of Ms Roycroft, that this certificate, when we selected this individual for review, and this has just been confirmed by the clerk, was not clearly identified, as they usually are, as a municipal appointee. Hopefully that is something that in the future will be very clearly indicated on the certificate, that this is a municipal appointee, and we will not have a problem with it in the future.
Someone did move that, did they not? Mr Waters moved.
Motion agreed to.
The Chair: Finally, Mr Mukherjee's appointment to the Ontario Human Rights Commission, motion to concur?
Mr Marchese moves that the committee concur in the appointment of Mr Mukherjee.
Motion agreed to.
The Chair: Finally, again this is not on our agenda, but you have all had an opportunity to take a look at this memo; it has been circulated. Mr McLean, did you want to say something?
Mr Callahan: I thought it was in answer to what I said this morning.
Mr McLean: No, I was just curious if it was going to be dealt with, and I guess it stems from the question or the remark I made and what I went by was in my briefing notes, and if that is wrong, then the record should be corrected.
The Chair: Mr Pond assures us that the briefing notes are correct. Would you like to comment on it at this point, David?
Mr Pond: Just very briefly, the Health Disciplines Act, which is what the memo refers to, was substantively amended more or less out of existence in 1991 by the Regulated Health Professions Act and in the case of nurses by the new Nursing Act. Under those two statutes the size and structure of the council was radically changed. In fact, when the College of Nurses itself appeared before the standing committee on social development last August 7, it actually brought this to the attention of the members, that it was a larger council, more laypersons would be appointed, the council may have some concerns and so on.
I am going to leave it at that. That statute went through the House last October. I rather suspect that perhaps some people were not aware of that and I am just going to leave it at that.
The Chair: Our memo should serve to bring the minister's office up to speed on the legislation. Anything further on this? If we get some feedback, obviously we will bring it to members' attention. Okay, nothing else? We will adjourn and see you all tomorrow -- oh, sorry, Mr Marchese.
Mr Marchese: You said if we get some feedback, we will bring this information that was given by Mr Pond to their attention as opposed to doing that in response to this?
The Chair: We are going to respond to this.
Mr Marchese: Okay, very well.
The Chair: If we get feedback from the response, we will bring it to your attention.
Mr Marchese: Further feedback from the response; very well.
The Chair: Okay. We will see you tomorrow morning. Meeting adjourned.
The committee adjourned at 1448.