CONTENTS
Wednesday 24 June 1992
Appointments review
Marilyn Vaters
Paul Burns
Sharon Graham
Revised draft report
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
*Chair / Président: Runciman, Robert W. (Leeds-Grenville PC)
*Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: McLean, Allan K. (Simcoe East/-Est PC)
Bradley, James J. (St Catharines L)
*Carter, Jenny (Peterborough ND)
*Cleary, John C. (Cornwall L)
*Ferguson, Will, (Kitchener ND)
*Frankford, Robert (Scarborough East/-Est ND)
*Grandmaître, Bernard (Ottawa East/-Est L)
Marchese, Rosario (Fort York ND)
Stockwell, Chris (Etobicoke West/-Ouest PC)
*Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay/Muskoka-Baie-Georgienne ND)
Wiseman, Jim (Durham West/-Ouest ND)
*In attendance / présents
Clerk pro tem / Greffière par intérim: Freedman, Lisa
Staff / Personnel: Pond, David, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1010 in room 228.
APPOINTMENTS REVIEW
Resuming consideration of intended appointments.
MARILYN VATERS
The Chair (Mr Robert Runciman): I see a quorum. I'm going to call the meeting to order. We'll begin this morning's session with our first witness, Marilyn Vaters. Ms Vaters is an intended appointee as a member of the town of Penetanguishene Police Services Board. Welcome, Ms Vaters, to the committee. This is a 30-minute review. Your appearance here today is the result of a request by the Conservative Party, so I'm going to ask Mr McLean to lead off the questioning.
Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): Welcome to the committee.
Ms Marilyn Vaters: Thank you.
Mr McLean: How long have you lived in Penetanguishene?
Ms Vaters: Five years, sir.
Mr McLean: How did you become aware of the opening in the police services board?
Ms Vaters: I became aware through my neighbourhood, just in conversing with my neighbours. In general, I guess I led the way by saying I was very much interested in getting involved in my community, and I believe I have a great deal to contribute to that.
Mr McLean: What other involvement do you have in the community? Do you serve on any boards or service clubs?
Ms Vaters: In the town of Penetang, no, sir, I don't.
Mr McLean: I thought one of the criteria for the appointment to this position was taking into account the involvement an individual had in his or her community. Are you aware of any criterion such as that?
Ms Vaters: I was aware that I should have some involvement, but being in a new neighbourhood and being new in that neighbourhood, five years, and certainly not retiring yet but in the very near future, I was not prepared to get involved where I'd have to do something on a total part-time basis.
Mr McLean: Would you be able to attend meetings in the daytime?
Ms Vaters: Yes, sir.
Mr McLean: You work for McDonnell Douglas?
Ms Vaters: Yes, I do.
Mr McLean: Shift work?
Ms Vaters: No, on straight days.
Mr McLean: So you would be able to take a day off if you had a --
Ms Vaters: Yes, sir. I am office chairperson. I have a vice who fills in for me when I am not available, such as today, so I am able to take whatever time is required.
Mr McLean: Are you familiar with any of the other members of the police services board in Penetanguishene?
Ms Vaters: I know them as just in the neighbourhood, sir.
Mr McLean: You don't know their names?
Ms Vaters: Yes, I do.
Mr McLean: What are they?
Ms Vaters: I know Shawn Stewart and I know another person by the name of Mike; I don't know his last name.
Mr McLean: Is there anything specific you would like to see that board do that maybe it's not doing now?
Ms Vaters: At this time, not being inducted on to the board, no, I wouldn't want to commit myself. I would like the opportunity to be able to get involved and certainly do a certain amount of investigation as to what I would see at that time.
Mr McLean: Do you have any idea how many policemen there are in Penetanguishene?
Ms Vaters: I believe it probably is close to six.
Mr McLean: Do you have experience in the budgetary process where you're working now, as far as budgeting goes?
Ms Vaters: We would only have that through part of our negotiations, collective bargaining, where we really get involved in it. I do have it in another former role I played at the local union level -- the executive board level -- being the third-highest officer. Yes, I'm involved in that.
Mr McLean: I'll pass for now, Mr Chair.
Mr Daniel Waters (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): When you were talking about being able to get off work, it says in your CV that you're a full-time chairperson, so I assume you work full time as a representative of workers.
Ms Vaters: Yes, I do.
Mr Waters: That's why you're available. I represent the riding beside Penetang, the town of Midland; I know we have a problem and Penetang has the same situation. I would like your opinion on it. We have a situation with Oak Ridge and Penetanguishene Mental Health Centre and there are some special needs in the community. Do you think the police services board should be working to help work those special needs through? We have these people who come out of the institution as citizens of the world yet there's very little in those two communities for them. That's what I'm getting at.
Ms Vaters: My belief has always been, in that type of situation, that all people should be working together so we have these people involved in our community, able to get back into society and perform normally.
Mr Waters: I would like to talk to you about the Lewis report. Mr Lewis just came down with a report talking about the use of force and reporting and training. I would like to know your opinion on training of police officers; whether municipal or OPP I think is almost irrelevant. How do you feel about training, ongoing training or the initial training we give officers? Do you think it's adequate? Do you think we should be doing more?
Ms Vaters: My belief is that we should always be doing more training, sir, in every aspect of our lives. Definitely, as far as the police go, yes, I believe that as it's their number one priority to serve and protect us all, training has to be an ongoing commitment for the police officers of any police services.
Mr Waters: So do you feel the province should set down provincial standards that, say, every X number of years an officer should requalify for the use of a revolver and be upgraded on a regular basis, I guess at some college or something like this, on how to deal with the new technology in policing?
Ms Vaters: I believe when it comes to the use of firearms that, yes, there should be ongoing training. If you want to get into a time period -- I am fairly unqualified at this point, not knowing the whole scope of everything, but my judgement would be that there should be training done at least once a year in the use of firearms. If you have that, then you can take a look at everything that has been documented through the training and perhaps upgrade the training so it can get better as the years go on.
Mr Waters: Thank you. I'll pass to Ms Carter.
Ms Jenny Carter (Peterborough): It seems to me you've followed your own precept on this. You have a very active trade union background; you've been taking courses and training and doing this kind of thing yourself. Could you tell us something about your background that is relevant to this post that would make you a well-qualified person to be on the police services board?
Ms Vaters: I have in the past and continue to sit on various committees. I believe I am conversant with various things such as employment equity, pay equity, collective bargaining, and have as chairperson also been able to administer into those committees.
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Ms Carter: So you have a lot of personnel background dealing with people and their job situations and that kind of thing?
Ms Vaters: Yes, I do.
Ms Carter: You mentioned pay equity, and of course there's that question and there's the question of job equity, of having the different elements in the population represented in workforces. How do you feel about that in connection with the police? Do you feel we need to make sure there are more women, more people from different cultural backgrounds and so on?
Ms Vaters: I think the police should have representatives, be it women, aboriginal people or visible minorities. Yes, there should be representatives. It doesn't help just the police; it helps the community in general.
Ms Carter: What is the position now? Is there just one woman police officer on the local force?
Ms Vaters: Yes, I believe so.
Ms Carter: Out of how many?
Ms Vaters: Perhaps six.
Ms Carter: Perhaps six. So we should be looking at a little more equality there. What kind of effect do you see having more female police officers on the way policing is done? For example, one thing that's been a problem in the past is domestic calls, when police have been called to some kind of dispute maybe between a husband and wife and they haven't really been able to do very much. What do you feel about that kind of situation?
Ms Vaters: As far as a woman's involvement as a police officer is concerned? If there are domestic disputes or abuse of any sort, there has to be training given to our police officers so they will be conversant in being able to handle this type of situation, whether they be women or men.
Ms Carter: So you see training as being a means of broadening the attitude of police?
Ms Vaters: Very definitely.
Ms Carter: Which I think is what we're all looking at at this time.
Mr Bernard Grandmaître (Ottawa East): How would you describe your police force?
Ms Vaters: In Penetanguishene?
Mr Grandmaître: Yes.
Ms Vaters: I believe they do a very good job at this time. However, I think we can all get better through proper training.
Mr Grandmaître: How can they get better? Explain this to me.
Ms Vaters: With proper training, make them more aware of different situations, perhaps using different techniques.
Mr Grandmaître: Are you saying they're not up-to-date?
Ms Vaters: I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying I believe they do a good job, but there is always room for improvement within each and every one of us.
Mr Grandmaître: What is the relationship between the youth population of Penetang and the police force? Do you think there's a good relationship between them?
Ms Vaters: To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Mr Grandmaître: Do you think city council politicians should have more of a say in the wheelings and dealings of the police services boards?
Ms Vaters: That's an excellent question. It would be a little difficult for me to answer yes or no at this point, the reason being that first of all I'd have to be able to sit down and have an overall view of everything to make a proper judgement. At this time I'm not on the board, so I don't think it would be right for me to make a judgement call.
Mr Grandmaître: Then let me give you an example. Your total budget is set at $120,000 for 10 uniformed officers. If I'm not mistaken, the only two municipal representatives are your mayor and the reeve. Salaries are 80% or maybe 90% of all police budgets. Municipal taxpayers are paying for these salaries and have very little to say when it comes to budgeting. In other words, when the police services board introduced its budget, municipal council was not involved in the drawing up of this budget. Do you think it is fair that municipal taxpayers would pay 90% of their total budget and have very little input into this budget?
Ms Vaters: I think they should be working together. To ask me whether it is fair or unfair, at this time I really don't know. They should be working together on this type of issue.
Mr Grandmaître: Any female officers on your force?
Ms Vaters: I'm not absolutely sure.
Mr Grandmaître: Thank you, Mr Chair.
The Chair: Any additional questions? Mr Cleary.
Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): Thank you for your presentation, and welcome here.
Many municipalities have some volunteer police auxiliary. Does that exist on your police services board: volunteer people to help the police, volunteer auxiliary police?
Ms Vaters: I don't know that I'm qualified to answer that question until I've reviewed everything and am able to answer appropriately.
Mr Cleary: Maybe I could ask how you would feel about having volunteers. Would you support that, or do you still not want to answer? It works very well in areas.
Ms Vaters: I think I'd be going against some of my own grain if I said I didn't totally support it, my son being a volunteer firefighter up there.
Mr Cleary: That's right.
Ms Vaters: I think I'd have to say that it may be a positive way of looking at serving and protecting all of us. I would be somewhat supportive of it at this point, without knowing all the details.
Mr Cleary: Thank you.
Mr McLean: I have a further question, Mr Chair. One of the criteria in selecting members for the police service boards is: "We are looking for individuals who have good standing in their community and have a record of community involvement. The individual should be aware of the concerns and values of their community as well as a confirmed commitment to the guiding principle of the Police Services Act. The individual must also be committed to performing all duties including receipt of training. Police service boards should reflect the composition of the local community." Do you fulfil those criteria?
Ms Vaters: I believe I would, sir.
Mr McLean: I had asked you previously what community involvement you have had, and you indicated you didn't have any.
Ms Vaters: Not in Penetanguishene, sir. I have in Mississauga over the years.
Mr McLean: Thank you, Mr Chair.
The Chair: Thank you. That completes the questioning, Ms Vaters. Thank you very much for your appearance.
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PAUL BURNS
The Chair: Our next witness is Mr Paul Burns, who is the intended appointee as the chair of the Farm Tax Rebate Appeal Board. Welcome to the committee, sir. Your selection was made by the official opposition, so Mr Grandmaître will begin the questioning. It's a half-hour.
Mr Grandmaître: Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Burns, you've been a long-standing member of the board and I'm sure you've witnessed the changes with the tax rebate program. Do you think the present program is responding to the needs of farmers?
Mr Paul Burns: Yes. Given the economic circumstances of the day, I think that by and large farmers are satisfied with it. I know it isn't quite as good for farmers as it was when it was 100%, but 75% isn't too bad.
Mr Grandmaître: Seventy-five is close enough. But farmers are faced with some very difficult decisions: Should they sell the farm, quit farming, because of our difficult times? Do you think the the tax rebate program should be changed to help farmers in a better way? Do you think the program needs to be fine-tuned? How would you improve it? Now that you're the boss, you're the chair, how would you improve it?
Mr Burns: It's beyond any power I might have if I'm the chairman. Of course, we're talking about an appeal board. But looking at the program as it has been, it started out I think at 25% and over the years went to 50% or 60% and then to 100%. Then, because of budget cutbacks, there was a change in 1989 for one year only, and there proved to be so many different aspects of the program as it was in 1989 that made it very difficult to deal with that it required changing again. I would like to say yes, put it back up to 100%. That would help farmers; definitely it would. But given the times of constraint, I think it would be almost an impossibility. I think farmers would be satisfied if the program could stay as it is. That would be my answer to the question.
Mr Grandmaître: Back in 1989 when I was Minister of Revenue, I met with just about every farmer in the province. They weren't too satisfied with the farm tax rebate, and at that time they had given the government a number of options: For instance, if we were not willing to improve on the percentage, the 75%, then allow farmers to sever their land and so on and so forth. Do you agree with this severance -- not policy, because it's not a policy. But most farmers today want the opportunity to sever their land. Do you agree with this?
Mr Burns: I've had considerable experience in that field over the years and there's no easy answer to that question.
Mr Grandmaître: Just your thoughts.
Mr Burns: I've got a lot of thoughts, but I haven't got any clear thoughts.
Interjection.
Mr Grandmaître: It's part of the farm tax. You don't know, Dan. It's very important. Maybe you should listen to the chairman. Now that you're in control, you're going to tell the government: "Look, 75% is good. Don't touch it. It's working. We're satisfied."
Mr Burns: I don't think that is within the powers of the Farm Tax Rebate Appeal Board.
Mr Grandmaître: You're the leader, you're in charge of the agenda.
Mr Burns: Yes, that's for the appeals we're looking at. From time to time we have been asked to give our input or our recommendations, which our committee has done in the past, but we're in no position to tell the government what to do.
Mr Grandmaître: You're not the only one. Even the elected people don't tell the government what to do. Good luck to you.
Mr Cleary: How long have you been on the board?
Mr Burns: Five years.
Mr Cleary: So this appointment will be for another --
Mr Burns: A year, as I understand it.
Mr Cleary: A year at a time. I'd like to continue from what my colleague was saying. Right now the farm tax rebate is year to year. Some farmers don't even know what they're going to get this year, or even if they do, they ask us questions on it. Would you figure that the 75% should be a permanent thing and forget about it, or do you think there should be changes later on, keep everyone up in the air?
Mr Burns: I think there has been enough time over the past spent reviewing it and looking for ways to improve. The 75% was I think a compromise after a committee reviewed the whole thing. Most farmers I talk to would be quite happy if it stayed as it was. As you just mentioned, I think they would like the security to know that it is going to stay there. Until recently, we didn't know what it was going to be for 1992.
Mr Cleary: I think you're right. I would hope a recommendation would come from you that it would stay at the 75% and then farmers could think about long-term planning.
Do you get a lot of appeals from developers other than farmers who have agricultural land leased or rented?
Mr Burns: Particularly since 1989 we have had a lot of appeals from people who are, shall I say, part-time farmers or dabbling in farming to some extent. Yes, a lot of the appeals are that type of appeal.
Mr Cleary: How much has your workload increased since the changes were made in 1989?
Mr Burns: We had a tremendous workload as a result of the changes in 1989, and we've pretty well worked through that. That crisis from 1989 and all the extra appeals that were generated we've pretty well worked through, back to a point where we're more or less looking at a normal number again.
Mr Cleary: You would be happy if it stayed at the 75% as it is now; you think your workload would decrease, and you'd be happy with that?
Mr Burns: Yes. I'm only speaking for myself, but other members of the board I think would feel the same and -- I am a farmer of course -- from other farmers I've talked to throughout the country I think they would be happy with it.
Mr Cleary: Thank you very much. Good luck.
Mr McLean: How many appeals would you handle in a year?
Mr Burns: At present we're probably doing an average of about 25 or 30 per meeting, and under usual circumstances we would have a two-day meeting once a month.
Mr McLean: What would the majority of the appeals be pertaining to?
Mr Burns: Now that we're getting the 1989 part levelled out again, a lot of the appeals we're looking at right now are deadline issues, the appeal being received for various reasons past the deadline date. Other appeals are in regard to the gross production.
Mr McLean: Qualifying.
Mr Burns: The qualifying.
Mr McLean: Would that be substantial?
Mr Burns: It could amount to 25% of the appeals.
Mr McLean: How many would you have who were not designated as farmers but thought they were and wanted to get in under the farm tax rebate program?
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Mr Burns: I suppose there are over half of them for sure who actually don't qualify. We dealt with some, which I would like to see more of actually, which were as a result of a random audit that was conducted by the ministry. If anybody was asking for any advice I might give, that is one of the things I would say -- that those random audits be continued. They can be done at very little cost and probably could save the province a fair little bit of money.
Mr McLean: In 1986 the residence was not part of the tax rebate percentage of 75%. Seventy-five per cent is on the land and buildings but not on the residence. Is that correct?
Mr Burns: Yes, that's right now.
Mr McLean: In essence the farmer is not getting 75% rebate then on his whole property, is he?
Mr Burns: That's true. He's actually getting 75% rebate on the actual farm buildings other than his residence, plus the land.
Mr McLean: And with today's taxation, as it is now, the farmer has to pay all his taxes and then apply to get the rebate.
Mr Burns: No, that's not true.
Mr McLean: Has that changed?
Mr Burns: That changed in 1987. Now you are eligible for the rebate without paying your taxes.
Mr McLean: Once a year or twice a year?
Mr Burns: It's once a year. In 1988 there was a two-stage rebate, and that was the only year. That policy changed in 1987, the first year you didn't have to have your taxes paid in order to receive the rebate.
Mr McLean: Today farmers are paying their taxes by instalment four times a year.
Mr Burns: Yes.
Mr McLean: When can you apply for your rebate?
Mr Burns: The application papers would usually be received by the farmers somewhere around October 1 in that fall period. Then you can, if you wish to, immediately send them back. But as far as I know, as it has been in the past, for 1992 you would have until December 31 of 1993 to submit your application.
Mr McLean: Yes. But what I started out to say was farmers have put in their taxes for the year before they apply to get it back.
Mr Burns: Yes.
Mr McLean: Why couldn't there be a portion which, each time they pay, would be what their share would be and the municipality would then apply for a rebate?
Mr Burns: We don't have any authority under this, of course. What I'm just offering is only a suggestion that if you wish to consider ways to get the money to the farmers sooner, instead of sending the rebate applications in the fall months you might consider sending them in June or May or whatever.
Mr McLean: This could be a recommendation to the government that that could happen. I'm a farmer too. I don't run it; my son runs it.
What year were you warden of Addington?
Mr Burns: Lennox and Addington. That was in 1975.
The Chair: Mr Waters, then Mrs Carter.
Mr Waters: Gee, Al, still farming after all these years.
Mr McLean: I'm going to stay there till I lose it all.
Mr Waters: I understand you've been without a chair for two or three months.
Mr Burns: Yes.
Mr Waters: So there must be a backlog.
Mr Burns: A couple of weeks ago there were 140.
Mr Waters: Is this going to create any problem?
Mr Burns: If necessary, instead of having two-day meetings we will have three-day meetings until we get them caught up fairly well to date.
Someone asked me what type of appeal we're dealing with. Many of the appeals are not appeals that are going to amount to a lot of money. We saw some of those as a result of the hard times we had in the 1980s when you had to have 60% of your taxes paid before you could receive your rebate. We considered back in those years some of it where the people really needed the money, but there are very few that are pressing at the present time.
Mr Waters: Following on Mr Grandmaître's line of discussion, I think what he was trying to get out was, would you feel comfortable, as chair, making recommendations about improving the system to the minister?
Mr Burns: I would feel comfortable if the ministry asked us to make recommendations. I think it's a little beyond what our board was intended for if we start making recommendations without being asked, but we certainly would be happy to make recommendations if we were asked. We have been asked in the past. Yes, we have been asked on at least two occasions while I've been on the board.
Mr Waters: If the minister -- let's say today -- asked the question, what recommendations would you make to improve the system or the lot of the farmer in the province?
Mr Burns: At the present time, as I said earlier, it has been reviewed enough times that I don't think we really have anything that we could say. You know, we see some things that sometimes appear to be unresolved and we wonder if there isn't a better way, but it's sometimes hard to find a better way.
Mr Waters: I understand the committee is made up of regional representatives.
Mr Burns: It's made up of a group of farmers from across Ontario.
Mr Waters: Yes, and you have what, another one or two openings, but you can function without those?
Mr Burns: Yes. If the board was at full capacity it would be seven, and much of the time we've been carrying on with five. I guess it's a backlog in the appointment process or whatever.
Mr Waters: This is a board that hears appeals. It does not try to set policy or inform the ministry of policy. There are set criteria, and the chair and indeed the board are there solely for the purpose of making sure that the appeals are heard under those criteria.
Mr Burns: Yes, we are given some leeway in appeals that are not set down. For instance, we cannot differ from what the order in council states, but we can give some variation to decisions that are not specifically outlined in the order in council.
Mr Waters: Okay. That would be all the questions I have at this moment.
The Chair: Mrs Carter has departed. Is there any other member of the government party who would like to ask questions?
Mr McLean: Do I have a minute left?
The Chair: Yes, you do, Mr McLean.
Mr McLean: Mr Burns, why couldn't you make a recommendation to the ministry, as we had discussed earlier, that perhaps those qualified farmers could apply, say, the first of June for their farm tax rebate? You said you had no recommendations at this time. Why couldn't you make one that would indicate that perhaps the farm tax rebate should be sent out at an earlier date?
Mr Burns: I suppose there isn't any reason why we couldn't make that recommendation, but as I said earlier, I feel hesitant to make recommendations until we're asked. It's outside what we're looking at. We're looking specifically at reasons why someone has not received rebate moneys. We don't have any appeals that deal with, "We think the rebate should be more," or that sort of thing. We don't have any of those whatsoever.
Mr McLean: So the recommendations you made earlier were on the request of the ministry?
Mr Burns: Yes. It may have been informal. The supervisor may have come in and said, "By your next meeting or within two meetings we would like you to give some thought to ways that you think government policy could be improved in regard to farm tax rebates." We have had input in the past into that.
Mr McLean: I would suggest that there's one. Thank you.
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Ms Carter: Sorry, I had to go out just then. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about yourself. First of all, you said you've been on the board for five years. Are you the only person who's been on the board for that long?
Mr Burns: There is a lady who has been on for the same length of time.
Ms Carter: I see. So there are just the two of you with that degree of seniority. Are the others relatively new?
Mr Burns: One lady, I believe, has been on for two and a half years. One member was recently appointed. As I recall, I think he has only been appointed for two meetings, and I understand that another person is coming on the board at our next meeting.
Ms Carter: I see. So they really needed somebody like you with the background.
We've heard already that you were warden of Lennox and Addington, could you tell us some of the other involvements of that kind? Obviously you're very busy as a farmer, but you seem to have had lots of energy to spare to do other things.
Mr Burns: I got into local politics at a fairly young age and was first elected to township council in 1965. I was on council for eight years and was reeve for our township for 10 years and retired without being thrown out, thank heavens, in 1982.
Ms Carter: That's Sheffield township.
Mr Burns: That's Sheffield township.
Ms Carter: Right. You've been active as a farmer, lecturing at meetings and involved in the Soil and Crop Improvement Association.
Mr Burns: Yes.
Ms Carter: And what else?
Mr Burns: I'm a beef farmer, actually, and I've had some involvement with the Lennox and Addington County Cattlemen's Association, but not much with the Ontario Cattlemen's Association. I only attended the conventions as a voting delegate, but I've had involvement since I got out of local politics in 1982. I've been involved with our own local Lennox and Addington cattlemen's association and was president of it for two years.
Ms Carter: Okay. Thank you very much.
The Chair: That concludes the questioning, Mr Burns. Thanks for travelling here today, and we wish you well.
Mr Burns: Thank you.
SHARON GRAHAM
The Chair: The next witness is Sharon Graham. Ms Graham is an intended appointee as a member of the City of Sault Ste Marie Police Services Board. Welcome to the committee, Ms Graham.
Ms Sharon Graham: Good morning.
The Chair: We're going to begin the questioning with Mr Grandmaître.
Mr Grandmaître: I'm going to start with the same questions as our previous candidate. How would you describe your police force in Sault Ste Marie?
Ms Graham: It's a very active community-based police force, I believe. On one of the groups I was on, Chief King and I were talking about the amount of involvement and they are involved in 144 different committees within our community. We've talked about coordinating the meetings that have to do with drugs, because we have about nine or 10 groups that are all focused towards prevention of drugs -- Say No to Drugs -- various groups that have components in the city. That's one of the things we're looking at trying to coordinate, that there's a head group so the time of volunteers who act on those particular boards is cut back but they are still serving the same groups of people and the needs.
Mr Grandmaître: Do you have community policing in the Sault?
Ms Graham: We have many examples of community policing.
Mr Grandmaître: I mean different precincts, the new approach to policing.
Ms Graham: One thing we hadn't seen in a long while is that we see them back out on the street. One thing they have tried that I saw in the paper was switching part of the workload for one officer between the OPP and the city police to get a better understanding. We have many jurisdictions right outside of Sault Ste Marie that belong under the OPP jurisdiction. That type of innovative policy, they feel, will help further down the road. I believe they have just finished with one of those matches and it was quite successful.
Again on the community policing, we had a police fair in the community for police week in the mall and there were 27 agencies involved in that particular police week.
We have an open forum at our city council every Monday night at 6 o'clock. The local police are quite often there and very visible in our community.
Mr Grandmaître: So you're telling me that there's a good relationship between city council and the police services board.
Ms Graham: City council, police and the rest of the agencies. Over the years I've run into the police chief on various committees. One of the things we all worked on in our community was a one-stop area for people in need to go to. Chief King and I were on the same wavelength at one point about five years ago in that we felt we didn't want places where the young folk came in one door and then were sent somewhere else. We felt we would lose them in the transition from one physical location to another so we wanted it all under one roof. We're very pleased that, through some funding from the Ministry of Community and Social Services, we have opened up a community information centre, which has attained one of those goals that we were working on in our community about five years ago.
Mr Grandmaître: You seem to know your chief quite well.
Ms Graham: No, I don't. I know him from committees. I guess where I worked most closely with him was on the Roberta Bondar homecoming on security. We just had the Ontario Theatre Festival in Sault Ste Marie, the first one in 25 years. It was their 25th anniversary. I was pleased to be doing the opening ceremonies with the Lieutenant Governor so of course I had to work closely with the police on the volunteer end on the security.
Mr Grandmaître: In looking at the composition of your police force, do you think the employment equity program really worked in the Sault?
Ms Graham: Without having investigated it, I would say we're probably light on the aboriginal input. That's an area we're working on all over.
One of the groups I'm with is business and professional women. We had a guest speaker from the Ontario Federation of Labour and she talked about employment equity for the police as a good example of a workable program. I have not investigated that because I'm not on the board yet so I am not privy to all that kind of information, but I respect this person's opinion and she feels it's a workable program.
Mr Grandmaître: One last question: How did you find out about this vacancy?
Ms Graham: The mayor actually asked me last year some time. During the Roberta Bondar thing, the police chief asked if I was interested. He said, "I keep asking around the city and your name keeps coming up." Mr Malpass, who just came off, I worked with on the community action team, which was the team that got together in our community for the saving of Algoma Steel.
Mr Grandmaître: Good.
Mr Cleary: Do you have an auxiliary police force and volunteers?
Ms Graham: We have lots of volunteers. I know there are the police cadets, and one of the fellows is very careful to say it's nothing to do with the police. They seem to be wherever there is crowd control and stuff like that. I heard you ask the other lady about the auxiliary, and I know they are a component, but I don't know how large a component.
Mr Cleary: Would you support that?
Ms Graham: I support volunteerism all the way through, as long as it does not interfere with bargaining unit work or with positions that are already there. I see the trend with our economic downturn. I think if somebody retires, that's still a position to be filled, but if there's something new that does not qualify as a workplace and volunteers can be a part of it, that's great. I think volunteers greatly enhance whatever groups are working on. Volunteers are your liaison to the rest of the community. If you don't have that, I think everybody works in isolation in their own particular area, so I do support volunteers. Just how far that goes is another question.
Mr Cleary: I take from what you said -- as long as it didn't interfere with other positions -- that you would be in favour of other positions more so than you would be in favour of saving the taxpayers' money.
Ms Graham: That's a catch-22, how I answer it. I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't.
Mr Cleary: That's why you're here.
Ms Graham: That's right. I definitely want work positions in the community because the more full-time jobs there are in the community the better the economy is based in that community. But keeping in mind the taxpayers' dollar, I don't think you create a position just for the sake of creating a position. There has to be some merit to it.
Mr McLean: From your résumé I see you've certainly been substantially involved in your community. You appear to be aware of the police services board. I want to ask you a couple of questions. How many female officers would there be?
Ms Graham: I would guess perhaps eight; I'm not sure. I do know, and I'm quite proud of it, we have had our first police constable woman retiree. I am on the Plummer Memorial Public Hospital board as well and we had a joint 75th anniversary and policemen's ball, and she was there. That was the talk, that she was retiring. So it's nice to have seen somebody in our community who has been around for a long time. She's one of the leading edges of women involved in the police force.
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Mr McLean: Super. I would presume you were one of the recommendations of the mayor and council.
Ms Graham: Yes.
Mr McLean: I know many other councils have made recommendations and yours is the first one I've observed that we have dealt with. There may have been others that we haven't dealt with, but you're the first one we have dealt with.
Sault Ste Marie is on the water. Is your police force involved in water safety as far as policing the water is concerned?
Ms Graham: There is an aspect of that, and this goes over to the other gentleman's community policing. They also work with Neighbourhood Watch, with the police on the other side, so there's some kind of mechanism, a program that crosses that bridge that crosses the waters, but I'm not fully aware of the details on that.
Mr McLean: Does the Sault Ste Marie force have a boat?
Ms Graham: I've not seen it, but I know it was around. If it wasn't them, it was the Coast Guard. There was something involving a dispute with Algoma Steel and there were police on the water. I seem to remember it in the paper, but no, I'm not aware of that.
Mr McLean: I have a question I'd like to ask. You're probably not aware of it, but is there any licensing of boats involved in that channel?
Ms Graham: Yes, there is. That's a great bone of contention right now about the licensing of the boats when they cross the waters, the type of duty they're going to have to pay and the marina there. But in terms of the police board, no, I'm not familiar with that.
Mr McLean: Are you saying people who own boats in the Sault or anywhere that go out into that waterway have to have a licence?
Ms Graham: I don't know if it's a licence or if there's something about crossing into the waters on the other side, that invisible line.
Mr McLean: It could be federal or something.
Ms Graham: Yes.
Mr McLean: I don't have any other questions. You have a good résumé and I wish you all the best.
Ms Graham: Thank you. One comment I'd like to make is that the mayor originally had promoted me to apply for this position, but then when Mr Malpass actually did move on, then I applied through our local MPP and it came through that area as well. So it's been two recommendations.
Mr Robert Frankford (Scarborough East): Is crime and policing a big area of discussion in Sault Ste Marie?
Ms Graham: It sure is. I've been on the Legal Aid Review Board for six years. Understandably, with the new guidelines, if I am appointed to this, I will be coming off that. One of the areas of real concern is that two or three years ago our young offenders numbers were about 340. Then the following year it was about 380 and this last year it was about 800. So we have a real concern with the young offenders. The downturn in the economy is causing some really grave concerns in the area.
That's one of the reasons I want to be a part of the police services board. As vice-chair of the United Way now, next year I'll be chair and involved with 28 different agencies. I feel I can be a great liaison through the community, though a lot of the members, through Big Sisters, and some of the people who are the victims and some who are the offenders. So I'm in a unique position and that's one of the reasons why I would like to get involved further. It is a key area in our community.
There's just been a new report released, and I don't even know if you folks have it in Queen's Park yet, through the Algoma District Health Council. It shows that the income level in Sault Ste Marie is 23.4% lower than the rest of the median for Ontario. With those kinds of statistics coming out, you can be sure that break-and-enters and other types of crimes are going to be on the increase. Our police knew the statistics, obviously, before they came to our health council, and you could tell by the amount of media coverage on Neighbourhood Watch and Crime Stoppers and stuff like that, there's been a real push to have captains in Neighbourhood Watch and so on. That's the type of area. It's been on talk shows etc, so it's very high-profile in our community.
Mr Frankford: The young offender statistics: Is that the area of growth or are there others?
Ms Graham: Drugs. We're on the water and there've been a few drug busts and drug rings broken up. One of the things I found very disturbing that has come out is that we have a higher median of mental disorders. I think that has to do with a lot of culminating factors that play on their emotions and bring them into a different set of circumstances. So there's a high number of mental problems surfacing in Sault Ste Marie.
Mr Frankford: So you really are directly correlating these crimes and police problems with the economy?
Ms Graham: Oh, yes, definitely.
Mr Frankford: Have you had any thoughts about how you would like to allocate or reallocate police resources when you're appointed?
Ms Graham: The awareness of the community: One of the things I keep saying on the hospital board is that we should have a printout, when somebody walks out that door, of how much it has cost them to come in there so that there's an awareness process. The more people are aware of how much things cost -- for example, we have this beautiful waterfront that's been built and the other day these three kids were sitting there throwing rocks at it. My first reaction was to holler at them to stop. My husband went over and sat down and talked with them and asked how things were going and why they were doing that. Did they realize how much it cost? Did it matter to them? He put it in relation to their skateboards and stuff like that.
I think part of our community policing too is strongly into the education system and going into the school. If youth is part of the problem, I'm probably going to look at targeting how much breaking down a door costs and relate it to something that the kids can relate to.
Naturally, they're not the only offenders here, but that's an area. I think we have to look at prevention rather than trying to clean it up once it's happened, so we have to look more at the younger area. So that's what I would look at trying to do. When you go on the police services board, there's a committee there, and you have to work with what you have. But that's one of the thrusts that I would be looking at, more education.
Mr Frankford: Obviously Sault Ste Marie is in the process of reconstructing its economic base. Are there ways in which its actual urban reconstruction, let's say, could produce safer neighbourhoods or give kids something more positive where they're not just hanging out unsupervised? Do you see anything happening there?
Ms Graham: I have to show you something that just happened in April. I live on a street where we had a community street cleanup. They call it Scrounge Day, and it made the front page of the paper. The reason it made the front page of the paper was it says, "Grace Street, normally home to drug addicts, motorcycle gangs" -- and so on -- "has cleaned up." We had the kids and we did 50 houses and three parking lots, and that made news because it is normally an area that is fraught with a lot of problems. The fact that we did this got in the paper.
Then,when I went to city hall to make a presentation on medicare, my neighbour down the street was doing something on the environment, and another neighbour was doing something on another aspect of the environment. So there were three people, three citizens from this street that is known as the fire capital. That shows our community is working together. Then about two weeks later, things cropped up in other areas where other neighbourhoods got together and cleaned up their neighbourhood.
That was the first time we did it, so we're going to make it not just an annual event; we're going to make it a biannual event. On our own neighbourhood street, I'm looking at getting permission to block off the street and have a block party where the kids are all involved and getting to know your neighbourhood. There's a neighbour in my area and the only time he's away is when he's in jail. My way of dealing with that is to get him to help with the block party.
Mr Frankford: Thank you.
The Chair: Mr Waters.
Mr Waters: Sharon, I'm looking at this and I'm amazed. Here is a person I've known all these years and there's a whole new life laid out here before me. I should have had your curriculum vitae long before now.
I notice that you're active with the Business and Professional Women, and I wanted to ask about that.
Ms Graham: Oh, that's wonderful. I think if you read the Business and Professional Women's handbook, it is a lot in line with what labour is. It's interesting -- and this is all perception. Truth does not evoke behaviour; perception does. I could say something when I was president of the labour council that would completely get wrecked in the press, and I could say the same thing as first vice-president of the Canadian Business and Professional Women and it's accepted. It depends who you're talking to. They have a lot of the same policies, and on the leading edge of employment equity is where we've done a lot of work with the Business and Professional Women.
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Mr Waters: I never knew. I'm going to ask one other question. I hate to put you on the spot, but I'm going to do it.
Ms Graham: Okay. You like doing that.
Mr Waters: That's the casino issue. If indeed it goes ahead, do you see, for both the police and the police services board, a major spin that you're going to have to put on it? That's if indeed we go ahead with casinos and Sault Ste Marie should get one. Do you see a need in changing the way policing is done, or an increase?
Ms Graham: If casinos go ahead in Sault Ste Marie, as part of the police services board I'll be going after the province for more money on a few areas.
Mr Waters: Thanks a lot.
Ms Graham: On a few areas. I believe 80% of the funds of the casino across the river in Michigan come from Canadians. I believe that with the cutbacks in all the ministries, there are people falling through the cracks who need professional counselling. As a community activist and someone with Business and Professional Women, one of the avenues I'll personally be pushing, and trying to get the groups that I'm with promoting, is that if casinos go in our area, we want a commitment from the government of so many counselling positions at the start, not when the problem comes. I believe some of the first people at the trough for assistance will be those who are falling through the cracks with regard to drug- and alcohol-related things having to do with the economic downturn.
Mr Waters: Thank you, Sharon. It's nice to see you again and as always you did a wonderful job.
The Chair: Thanks very much, Ms Graham, for appearing here today.
Ms Graham: That's it? Thank you.
The Chair: I wish you well.
Members of the committee are aware from the agenda that Mr Harrigan, who was to be our fourth witness, was again unavailable. I'm not really sure what we want to do about that as a committee. That's two occasions he has not been able to attend. We can request a delay or let the appointment go through, so I'm looking to what the committee's wish is in this matter.
Mr Waters: I believe Mr Harrigan is a selection of the government party?
The Chair: That's right.
Mr Waters: Unless the other two parties have a problem with him, why keep having this hanging over our heads?
The Chair: That's fine.
Mr Waters: But I think we should make a note that when we ask for somebody to come in for a review, we would appreciate it very much if they did come in at the same time, just to be fair on this.
The Chair: I think we can also appreciate that Mr Harrigan is an extremely busy man and it simply wasn't possible, I gather. I think his reasons were quite legitimate.
Mr Waters: But I can't see holding up the appointment any longer from our side.
The Chair: Anyone have any problem with that? Okay, we will let it flow through, then.
We've got a couple of more items on the agenda. I wanted to add one since we're a little early, if I don't have any objections. We'll deal with the concurrences and move on. I'll bring it up at that point, but we should have a motion to concur with respect to the witnesses who appeared before us today, with the appointments moved by Mr Waters. Any discussion?
Mr McLean: I want to just say briefly that this last witness we had here today will be a total asset to her community. She has been involved. She is so involved that she's going to add to that board. The first one we had had no involvement in the community. Surely there have got to be people in that community, and the town council recommended some people, who would have added greatly and been a good asset to that community. I find it tough to sit here and see that these people we're interviewing are totally there because of certain reasons that we're all aware of.
The Chair: Mr McLean, are you suggesting you want to vote on these individually?
Mr McLean: Yes.
The Chair: You can make that request.
Mr McLean: Yes, I do.
The Chair: All right. What we're going to have to do, then, is look at individual motions. Mr Waters moves Ms Vaters's appointment.
Mr Waters: I want to get something in in response to Mr McLean.
The Chair: We could do that on this. If any member makes a request to do them on an individual basis, we can discuss them individually.
Mr Waters: Okay.
The Chair: Do we have a motion to concur with Ms Vaters's appointment? Discussion?
Mr Waters: I think you have to be fair on it. When it comes to Ms Vaters's appointment, you're looking at a person who's moved into the community within the last five years and who was active in her previous community. She demonstrated that her family is already active. She's trying to get active. If you don't allow these people to be appointed, how do they get a history of being active in the community? She indicated that her son is already on the volunteer fire department. She wants to be active on the police services board. What more does the member expect of someone who has been relocated from one community to another?
The Chair: Anything further?
Mr Grandmaître: I agree with Mr McLean. Let's face it, we were told this committee was to appoint the best possible person or persons. I find some of the candidates -- and I agree with Mr McLean. I think the last candidate was an excellent candidate. I'm sure she'll be an asset to Sault Ste Marie. But I don't agree with you when you say we have to accept people like Ms Vaters to give her experience. I'm sure there must be people in Penetanguishene who are very interested in serving, are serving and have been serving their community for years and years and would love the opportunity to be part of the process.
We are not giving these people who have been volunteers for years and years an opportunity. Maybe that's one of the reasons I don't vote on these things, because I don't believe in the process; I think it's a fake. This is not the place to carry on but here's another perfect example of -- she may be a great person but I don't think she'll be an asset to Penetanguishene. I'll be voting once; I'll be voting against that candidate.
The Chair: Hopefully this will have had two opposition comments, two responses, I gather, from the government party and then perhaps we can move on.
Mr Will Ferguson (Kitchener): I just want to point out to the members of the committee that being involved in every particular community, church or social group in one's community isn't necessarily a prerequisite for serving that community on the police services board, district health council or any number of agencies that operate. The position of this committee ought to be whether there's a glaring reason why the individual shouldn't have the opportunity to serve at the local level as an appointee of the province. Indeed, if you want to take the argument to its most logical extension, I think most of us could argue that perhaps the best, brightest and most talented individuals serving the Legislature in fact were not elected on September 6, 1990.
Mr Grandmaître: We're elected; we're not appointed.
Mr Ferguson: I don't see any glaring reason why this individual should not have the opportunity to serve.
Mr McLean: Very briefly, your criteria, laid out by the government -- we're looking for individuals in good standing in the community who have a record of community involvement. Now, the answer is there; nothing more to be said. You'd know she had community involvement previously or not and the answer was no.
The Chair: All right. Do we have a motion on the floor from Mr Waters to concur with the appointment of Ms Vaters? All in favour? Opposed?
Motion agreed to.
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The Chair: We require a motion to deal with Burns and Graham. Do we want to do the two together? Any problem with that? A motion to concur with Mr Burns's and Ms Graham's appointments?
Mr Waters: So moved.
The Chair: Moved again by Mr Waters. Any discussion? All in favour?
Motion agreed to.
The Chair: We need one further because, as members who were here last week recall, the problem with Mr Sanderson was that the certificate only had Mr Sanderson listed as a member and not as chair. We've now had that corrected, so we need a motion to concur with Mr Sanderson's appointment as a member and chair of the Ontario International Corp.
Mr Frankford: So moved.
The Chair: Moved by Mr Frankford. Any discussion on that? All in favour?
Motion agreed to.
REVISED DRAFT REPORT
The Chair: Before we break, we have several matters we'd like to finalize. We've had the TVO report approved. The Eastern Ontario Development Corp report has been approved. We now have in front of us the Brockville Psychiatric Hospital draft report which we discussed a couple of weeks ago. The suggestions that were made at that time have been incorporated by our researcher. We could take a couple of minutes if there are any concerns. If not, perhaps we could approve this. David, do you want to highlight the changes?
Mr David Pond: The recommended changes appear in shaded dark print, mainly beginning on page 10 and then again on the bottom of page 11. I'll take you through this very quickly if you like.
On page 10 and earlier on page 2, I simply make note of the fact that since the board appeared before the committee in January, as Mr Runciman pointed out two weeks ago, there has been quite a turnover in membership. I've checked with the secretary to the board and in a way the board is in a bit of limbo right now because it only has five members. They're looking to get new members. I just make a note of that in the middle of page 10.
At the bottom of page 11, the new phrase in the recommendation is as a result of a suggestion by Mr Bisson. He pointed out that the ministry was reviewing long-term care and support services in Ontario. This may very well have an impact on the role of community advisory boards. He wanted that put in.
At the bottom of page 12, the new paragraph, again the notion was that perhaps all community advisory boards could benefit from the expertise of their local district health councils. That's why that paragraph is there, and the recommendation at the bottom of page 12.
Moving along to the middle of page 13, the first paragraph in shaded ink, again there was a suggestion from the government side that perhaps when this board tries to attract former residents to the board, it should try to get more than one so that a single former resident on the board wouldn't feel isolated or perhaps intimidated by the other members who are quite likely to be professionals.
In the paragraph beneath that, the notion was that the Ontario Public Service Employees Union ex officio representative on the board now should be able to have greater input into the board's discussions since, after all, he or she would represent the employees. They are sort of the front-line experts on how the hospital works. But the suggestion was that the rule should be that such a representative shouldn't have voting rights when it comes to labour relations issues because that might generate a conflict of interest or the appearance of a conflict of interest.
On page 14, the second recommendation in shaded ink is a modification of the original recommendation. The idea is to foster a dialogue between the Ministry of Health and the community advisory boards, that the community advisory board would be kept up to date on Ministry of Health thinking and policy.
Finally, at the top of page 15, the first sentence of the recommendation is new. Again, the notion was that perhaps, given the fact that the community advisory board's budget and resources are provided by the hospital, there needed to be a review as to whether there was some mechanism by which the board could be more institutionally independent of the hospital. That's it.
The Chair: Any questions on that? I think it pretty well meets the requirements we asked of David. Can we have a motion to adopt this report?
Mr Grandmaître moves that the report be adopted and reported to the House.
Motion agreed to.
The Chair: Before we leave, there are a couple of more things. David, were there other matters that we wanted to incorporate in the report from other agencies?
Mr Pond: As the Chair already mentioned, you've now approved three: Eastern Ontario Development Corp, TVO and this one. Also, the last time there was a suggestion we incorporate into the next report the memo on agency responses to committee recommendations dating back to 1988.
The only suggestion I had was, would you like to direct us to prepare for your final approval and for publication a report on that now, or would you like to wait until the committee has reviewed and approved other reports and other agencies? The reason I put that to you is it may be some time before you get the opportunity to review and approve draft reports on other agencies.
The Chair: My view on that is that we should wait, because I don't think there's any great urgency to report on this matter. We have the three reports we've approved and we can get them tabled before the House rises for the summer.
Mr Pond: Is that what you want to do?
The Chair: That's my own personal view. I don't see any problem with waiting. There's no great urgency to any of those other matters.
Mr Pond: Do you want us to prepare a traditional, bound report? Okay.
That's it.
Mr Grandmaître: Have we completed the Ontario Municipal Board review?
The Chair: That's what we're going to talk about at subcommittee: our summer sittings, what we want to request for time and what we want to do with that time.
The committee adjourned at 1128.