CONTENTS
Wednesday 17 June 1992
Subcommittee report
Appointments review
Frederick Griffith
Leo D. Courville
Carol Devine
John Sanderson
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
*Chair / Président: Runciman, Robert W. (Leeds-Grenville PC)
*Acting Chair / Président suppléant: Grandmaître, Bernard (Ottawa East/-Est L)
*Vice-Chair / Vice-Président: McLean, Allan K. (Simcoe East/-Est PC)
*Bradley, James J. (St Catharines L)
*Carter, Jenny (Peterborough ND)
*Cleary, John C. (Cornwall L)
*Ferguson, Will, (Kitchener ND)
*Frankford, Robert (Scarborough East/-Est ND)
*Marchese, Rosario (Fort York ND)
Stockwell, Chris (Etobicoke West/-Ouest PC)
*Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay/Muskoka-Baie-Georgienne ND)
*Wiseman, Jim (Durham West/-Ouest ND)
*In attendance / présents
Clerk / Greffier: Arnott, Douglas
Staff / Personnel: Pond, David, research officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1011 in room 228.
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT
The Acting Chair (Mr Bernard Grandmaître): This meeting will now come to order. Our first item on the agenda: the report of the subcommittee on committee business dated Wednesday, June 10. Any questions on the subcommittee report? Is it agreed to?
Mr Marchese moves adoption.
Mr Jim Wiseman (Durham West): We do have one slight problem. I understand that Ken Harrigan cannot appear on the 24th, and he is our selection.
The Acting Chair: The Royal Ontario Museum board of trustees.
Clerk of the Committee (Mr Doug Arnott): I did hear there could be some difficulty but I didn't hear definitively he could not appear. I'll check back and I'll let you know.
Motion agreed to.
APPOINTMENTS REVIEW
Consideration of intended appointments.
FREDERICK GRIFFITH
The Acting Chair: The next item on the agenda this morning is Mr Frederick Griffith, to be appointed to the Ontario Lottery Corp board of directors. Mr Griffith, good morning, sir. Any comments before we start grilling you?
Mr Frederick Griffith: No, I'm here at your pleasure.
Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): I have some questions.
The Acting Chair: The third party requested your attendance, Mr Griffith.
Mr McLean: Mr Griffith, you've been with the Sault Ste Marie and District Group Health Association for some 24 years, is that right? What were your duties?
Mr Griffith: I was in a variety of titles but I was the chief administrative officer of the organization from 1964 until two years ago when I retired voluntarily.
Mr McLean: Did you apply for the Ontario Lottery Corp position?
Mr Griffith: No, I did not.
Mr McLean: Were you asked?
Mr Griffith: I was asked if I would offer my name to this committee for discussion.
Mr McLean: Whom did that request come from?
Mr Griffith: From Mr Wildman and Mr Martin.
Mr McLean: Do you know how much this position pays?
Mr Griffith: I believe that there is a per diem, but I can assure you that neither my ego nor my bank account is dependent on this position. This may sound a little naïve, but through my life I have felt that when a citizen is asked to take part in some of the duties of the society from which he benefits he should offer himself or herself to that position.
Mr McLean: You would have taken it even if there had not been a per diem, would you?
Mr Griffith: Absolutely. If you would like to cancel it --
Mr McLean: I have a couple of questions I'd like to get your thoughts on, and they have to do with how the lotteries are disbursed. Some time ago a previous Treasurer brought in a bill which put all the funds into general revenues. At that time there were some of us who indicated that we felt a great percentage of that should stick with the sports, fitness and recreation part of it. Are you familiar with how it's broken down, the amounts that go to that and the Trillium Foundation?
Mr Griffith: I am not. I do not pretend to be an expert on the internal affairs of the corporation. I believe that also a considerable amount of the funds go to hospitals, which I don't think is sufficiently well recognized by the public.
Mr McLean: Getting back to my previous question with regard to the sports, fitness and recreation part of it, there's approximately $40 million, I guess, that goes into that and some $300 million into hospitals. My concern was that in order to keep our health care costs down you've got to have sports, fitness and recreation to keep people healthy. I'm wondering if you feel that there's enough going into that aspect of it.
Mr Griffith: I have no opinion on the amounts, but I certainly agree with you that as we are moving into a much greater and better understanding of what health is and what determines health, there is no question that the activities that you mention are major contributors, along with housing, nutrition and many other things, of course.
Mr McLean: Are you familiar with any of the other members of the board?
Mr Griffith: No, I am not.
Ms Jenny Carter (Peterborough): Some people of course have problems with lotteries as a means of funding government operations, but leaving the strictly ethical part of it aside, do you think that there's any danger in using lotteries to provide funding for essential services? I believe the revenue from lotteries has decreased just recently, and that does leave a question mark as to whether we're going to be in difficulties if certain activities are dependent on this funding.
Mr Griffith: In all honesty I would have to say that I wish that we had a fair, equitable, reasonable and all-of-the-good-things taxation system that would provide sufficiently for all of our necessary services. The fact is that the lotteries are in essence a voluntary tax that seems to be highly acceptable to the public.
I believe that the corporation is a relatively fragile sort of organization. So much of it is dependent upon the view of the public of the integrity of the organization, and that filters all the way through. There are very large amounts of cash being handled. So I think that the matter of integrity and the larger moral issues all the way through are absolutely essential, but one of the functions of a board is to build and maintain close linkages with the moral membership, which in this case is the people of the province as represented by you people in the House.
So if that linkage is well built and maintained and people understand the function of it -- of which I think they have some understanding -- and if it is operated on a highly moral basis, which I believe it has been, then I don't see that that's a difficulty.
Ms Carter: Do you think that a certain level of funding should be guaranteed to recipient organizations?
Mr Griffith: Times change, priorities change and values change. One of the problems I think we have in individual organizations is that too often programs that have been in existence for some time have an unfair advantage in the competition for resources with new programs which may indeed be better.
Innovation is always very tough. I've known that for many years. So obviously for some period of time an organization must have some stability to plan and fulfil its mandate, but I don't believe there should be any guarantees. There're not many of us who have guarantees in most of our activities. I think that, particularly in times like these when all resources are scarce, we must be sure that we have the proper methods in place to ensure we're getting the best return on whatever investment we make in any sort of program.
1020
Mr Robert Frankford (Scarborough East): It's very nice to see you here. Is the position you're taking advisory about the disbursement of funds or is it to do with the management of the corporation and the methods of raising money?
Mr Griffith: I have some fairly definite views on the role of the board and the role of management. I believe governance is the obligation of the board and management is not. The board has one employee, and that employee is the chief executive officer of the organization. One of the duties, then, of the board, along with establishing a linkage to this moral membership, is establishing methods to monitor the executive performance. I think too many boards spend too much time reviewing the past and not enough time in planning the future. I see boards poring over a financial statement, and I ask, "If there's something on there you don't like, what can you change?" You can't go back six months and redo something. So I think many boards are spending too much time reviewing the past and not enough in planning the future.
It's up to the board to establish clear policies, to establish the values of the corporation and to ensure, then, that the executive and the management of the corporation are carrying out activities that move the corporation towards those values and towards those objects, but it is not to try to out-accountant the accountants or out-manage the management of the staff; the board is not the staff. Hopefully over the years of the existence of the corporation, competent staff has been recruited and trained and oriented and is functioning reasonably well.
Mr Frankford: I know well how successful the Group Health Centre has been over the years that you were the key figure in building it up, but I wonder if you could just give some indication to my colleagues of what it's all about and how it grew over the years.
Mr Griffith: The Group Health Centre has had a fairly colourful history. It began in the late 1950s and early 1960s when Sault Ste Marie was really quite an isolated community. Some people in Toronto may regard it as isolated now, but at that time the highway ended at the Sault, there was no airport in the Sault, it had a railway spur line and there was no bridge to the States. It was really quite isolated.
The Steelworkers were negotiating more and more money for indemnity-type insurance and began to realize that the harder they bargained with the corporation the more benefits the physicians got rather than the Steelworkers. They could never change their relative position; they were always paying about the same amount out of pocket. All of the physicians in the community had opted out of the doctor-sponsored not-for-profit plan, Physicians' Services Inc. The fees in the Sault were higher than they were in Toronto or Sudbury or in other locations.
They began to realize, as they thought of this thing, that there is a difference between the way health care is paid for and the way health care is organized. They're related, but they're two different issues. They decided they would go for a pre-paid, group-practice type of care, and this was really heresy at the time. Solo practice and fee-for-service payment is still the norm in the province. So there was a great deal of opposition. There were lawsuits and so on.
When I joined the organization in 1964 there were 13 physicians, and the newspaper had said we might have as many as 30 employees. When I left there were 54 physicians; there were 243 employees. The original practice location had more than doubled in size. We have five practice locations, offsite computer services, storage services and accounting services.
0hile it was regarded as a very strange way to do business when it started, one of the problems we have now is the number of people who want to come and see what it is in fact we've been doing. When the Toronto Hospital Corp was planning what is known as a comprehensive health organization we had, I believe it was, three or four quite large teams of people visiting the centre to find out some of the mechanisms of how we operate. We have had people, I guess, from every province. I have been in health centres in every province at one time or another, literally from Newfoundland to the Queen Charlotte Islands. I was asked to put on a course in China for health care administrators in Harbin, Heilungkiang province.
So it has gone from an unknown and very contentious sort of organization to something that more and more is being recommended. Almost all of the reports, commissions, Premier's councils or whatever they're called in the different provinces include in the recommendations some form of what we are doing as part of what I see as quite a necessary reform in the health care system.
Mr Bernard Grandmaître (Ottawa East): I'd like to go back to your responsibilities as chair of the Ontario Lottery Corp. As mentioned a little earlier, the lottery profits have been decreasing in Ontario in the last three or four years. What are your thoughts on widening the possibility of gaming in the province -- for instance, opening casinos? What are your thoughts on casinos?
Mr Griffith: As I'm sure you're aware, I live in a border town and I see the traffic across the bridge. I hasten to say I'm not one of those people. The traffic across the bridge is very extensive into Michigan. There is usually one item that triggers a person's trip to the States. It may be gasoline or in our case it may be a casino, because there is a casino on the American side of the river on an Indian reserve. There are also charter flights from time to time out of Sault Ste Marie to Las Vegas and Atlantic City.
I hear great debates about the price of gasoline and what might be done about that, or the price of milk or dairy products. Certainly the retention of all that money flowing into American states -- in the best of situations, to an American state; in the worst of situations, to others -- is something we really have to take a look at. I have no idea of the amounts of money, but it must be very substantial. If we can keep that money, those jobs, that activity in the province, then I think we should take the necessary steps to do it, remembering what I said earlier that the whole corporation is based on a view that it is a moral organization seen as having a high degree of integrity.
The amount of cash that's around obviously provides some motivation. I think we have to ensure that the opportunity for misallocation of funds doesn't exist. In the times we're in at present and with the loss to the States of jobs and dollars, we should be looking at all the alternatives, including the casinos. If people are going to gamble, which I don't believe we can stop, let's do it at home.
1030
Mr Grandmaître: As you know, Sault Ste Marie is on the priority list whenever that announcement is made by the government. I realize that Sunday shopping has been attracting a lot of people from the Sault to Michigan. Would you know how many regular trips are made? Was there ever a survey conducted to identify people crossing to Michigan to gamble?
Mr Griffith: I have no idea how many they are and I have no idea how you could find out. Obviously when you return from the States it's a very informal procedure. The question is usually, "What are you bringing back?" and if the answer is "Nothing," that is usually sufficient. The question I have never been asked is, "What did you leave over there?"
Mr Grandmaître: Your wallet, if you gamble.
Mr Griffith: Yes, right. Sometimes they ask, "How much did you spend?" or "What was it worth?" But I don't see any initiation of information that would allow that figure to be put together.
I have a sister who lives on the American side of the river who spent her working life in New York. Her home is on the riverside downstream from the location of a casino. A personal observation in driving to my sister's is that the parking lot usually shows there are quite a number of Ontario licence plates, as do some of the other -- Glen's grocery store and so on. It's a very frequent stopping place for Ontario licence plates.
Mr Grandmaître: Do you think that by opening the gaming business, if we can call it the gaming business, in Ontario the government should be using these dollars to provide more money to hospitals or social services? Do you think the best way to administer these services is by opening up the gaming business?
Mr Griffith: I believe I said earlier that I hope we are able to develop an alternative, but it seems to me that the public, by its actions, has said it would prefer this form of voluntary tax rather than an involuntary tax levied by government. They certainly are being reasonably faithful to the games that are being played at the present time; there are very large amounts of money going into them. I would hope that when it's necessary to make the allocations from those funds there are directions from the Legislature and there are policies in place within the corporation to ensure again that the maximum return of those funds is indeed going to those places with the highest priorities, recognizing some of the things Mr McLean has said as well.
Mr Grandmaître: So you're not really opposing casinos.
Mr Griffith: No, I am not.
Mr McLean: I have a couple more questions. What type of casinos do they have in Michigan? Is it slot machines? I'm curious.
Mr Griffith: I will confess to you that my curiosity took me inside the doors once. I'll also confess I've been inside the doors in Las Vegas. I had a business meeting there. My wife was present, and when we were leaving she said, "You know, we've been here for a week and we haven't gambled." I reached in my pocket and I had three quarters which she proceeded to lose immediately, and I said, "Now you've gambled in Las Vegas."
The only time I have been into the casino on the American side of the river it was not open. There were some people in there, but the games were not present. I did not see a slot machine. There obviously were blackjack tables, but I really had only a very cursory look.
Mr McLean: I'm wondering what type of casinos we're going to have in Ontario, if they're going to be slot machines or the whole thing like they have in Vegas. I was curious what's on the other side.
Mr Griffith: Give me a couple of bucks; I'll go there tonight.
Mr McLean: I don't want to lose that quickly. I'm pleased to meet you and I wish you well.
Mr Griffith: Thank you.
The Chair (Mr Robert W. Runciman): Mr Bradley, if you've changed your mind I guess you --
Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): Yes, I'm going to ask a leading question like, "Don't you believe?" and you'll answer it any way you want to. But don't you believe that the moment we set up casinos on our side of the border we'll see a blossoming of casinos in adjacent jurisdictions, and even if you put aside all the moral or ethical reasons against it, that in fact unless you're the only game in town the amount of money to be derived from casinos is not nearly as great as many people would anticipate?
Mr Griffith: I wish there were a difference between a reply and an answer. We've sparred once before on the Premier's Council on Health Strategy. I suppose it depends on whether you want to be the reactor or the initiator. Obviously, in all phases of any sort of economic enterprise there's an action and a reaction. There are market forces at work even in this field, and I suppose that all jurisdictions at the present time, including the federal government of the United States, are looking for ways of painlessly raising money. So you're probably quite right: If there is a market, someone will respond to it. I guess it depends on whether you'd rather be an initiator or a reactor. But you're probably quite right: there will be some reaction. I guess the aim is to try to build a better mousetrap.
Mr Bradley: The second question I would have is: Are you aware of any studies that have been done to show the impact on individuals, particularly those who are addicted to gambling and who will be very attracted to a very fancy kind of gambling? It's even more attractive because it's glitzy and it sounds like Las Vegas and so on. Do you not think that those people are going to be attracted to this in even greater numbers and we're going to see even more social problems as a result?
Mr Griffith: You used the word "addictive." I would guess that if people are indeed addicted they will find a way of satisfying their addiction, and it doesn't matter much what it is. There are people who undoubtedly will get into trouble because of gambling habits. There are people who get into trouble because of drinking habits and driving habits and a variety of other activities. If we could cure that addiction, getting back to health care, that would be wonderful. Until we reach the point that we can, I think we're going to have to take a chance that if we are indeed going to have addicts they will satisfy their addiction. Whether there's some good to our society derived from it, that's a --
The Chair: Thank you, Mr Griffith. That concludes the questioning. We appreciate your appearance here today and wish you well.
Mr Griffith: Thank you very much.
LEO D. COURVILLE
The Chair: The next witness before the committee is Mr Leo D. Courville, who is an intended appointee as a member of the City of Cornwall Police Services Board.
Mr Courville, your review was a decision by the official opposition, so I'm going to look to Mr Grandmaître to begin the questioning.
Mr Grandmaître: Mr Courville, I'll be very blunt with you.
Mr Leo Courville: Yes, sir.
Mr Grandmaître: I received a number of phone calls from Cornwall in the last, let's say, six days telling me that your appointment is strictly a patronage appointment. Do you agree or not?
Mr Courville: I applied for this position based on an interest in the work of this agency based on my background in so far as I thought I could contribute to this agency and based on my interest in the community of Cornwall. I think that my interest and my background are such that they lead me to apply to this position.
1040
Mr Grandmaître: You say you applied for this position; how did you apply?
Mr Courville: I was very much aided by a wonderful publication which I found in our public library on agencies, boards and commissions. I hadn't seen that document before this year and I noted that it has a very comprehensive review of all of the various government boards and agencies there are. Certainly that was the primary factor that led me to look at the police commission for the city of Cornwall.
Mr Grandmaître: Have you dealt with the Cornwall Polices Services Board in the past? Have you dealt with them personally?
Mr Courville: I have not had any personal contacts with the board as such.
Mr Grandmaître: But you must be familiar, because of your background, with some of their responsibilities.
Mr Courville: Yes, sir. I believe I'm familiar with them in two respects. First, I'm aware of the work that the police do generally in the community, and second, I have some very sketchy knowledge of the Police Services Act. I have a sense of the responsibilities of the board from those sources.
Mr Grandmaître: How would you describe your Cornwall police force? Are they reflecting the attitudes and representing the real community life of Cornwall?
Mr Courville: I think they're primarily a group of fairly dedicated men and women who are trying to do the best job they can. I think police everywhere are having difficulty doing that job in today's environment. I think they have made some very positive steps in the last few years with respect to a number of important considerations.
My sense of where any police force should be going is that it should be community-oriented. It should try to blend into the community. Recently I know that there have been several women officers appointed as court officers, and that, I think, has worked very well. Even among these women there have been certain native Canadians appointed, and again that seems to augur well in terms of our community.
So I think that in so far as they're trying to fit into the community more and become community-minded they're on the right track. Like any police force, training is of the utmost importance. In so far as they can develop more extensive programs for training that fit the Cornwall situation, they'll be more effective.
The Chair: Mr Cleary.
Mr Bradley: I'm next, Mr Chair. Premier Rae said he was going to be different in the field of patronage, and there was the implication in opposition that Mr Rae and members of his party disliked the idea of political patronage. Were you not a candidate in the last provincial election for the NDP?
Mr Courville: Yes, I certainly was. Mr Cleary certainly knows that.
Mr Bradley: Do you not believe that, when you see so many people who are so clearly identified as candidates or major players in the NDP election campaign, this simply flies in the face of Premier Rae's contention that he is --
Mr Wiseman: Like Ken Harrigan. You mean like Ken Harrigan?
Mr Bradley: We all know he wants to cover his ass with a few other appointments, Mr Wiseman.
Mr Wiseman: Get real.
The Chair: Let's confine this to questions and answers. We have limited time.
Mr Bradley: Don't you think that betrays the suggestion that Premier Rae was going to be different in terms of patronage appointments?
Mr Courville: Sir, if I can answer that, I'm not sure in what context you're referring to the issue of patronage. I'm applying for this position based on a certain background and experience and qualifications that I think I can bring to this board. I believe that if I were not a member of the New Democratic Party, which I am, I would be applying for this board regardless of that fact.
I find this area interesting. I am a member of the Cornwall community. I am a practising lawyer. I notice there is precedent in Cornwall: There have been at least two lawyers in the past few years who have served on this board. I think they've done a good job in helping the board, and I think it's an issue that I would address outside the context of my particular political leanings. Clearly I'm not hiding the fact that I am a member of the New Democratic Party, but I don't think that's at issue here. I certainly wouldn't approach it, if I were appointed to this position, from the point of view of being a New Democrat, any more than I would approach it from the point of being a Liberal or a Conservative.
Mr Bradley: What do you think your chances would be of being appointed if you weren't a New Democrat?
Mr Courville: Well, I guess I'd have to look at what a standing committee would look for in the qualifications of a candidate for this position. I think my qualifications are fairly in line with the requirements of the position.
Apart from the fact that I practise law in Cornwall -- about 25% of my practice is criminal and 75% is civil litigation and administrative law at this point -- I had a management position in Saskatchewan Telecommunications. I was what could be described as a middle manager there. That's a corporation that has 4,000 employees, and I did have fairly extensive managing and budgeting responsibilities in that corporation as a strategic planning manager.
I've had a fair degree of experience in working with convicted people. I was a worker for the John Howard Society for a few years and I worked in the area of job placement for convicted people, so I know what convicted people go through and I know their problems with the police and I know the police problems with those people.
I know something about race relations. I worked in overseas assignments in different cultural situations, so I think I have some qualifications that might be of assistance to this particular board.
Mr Bradley: You are the second appointed person on this commission. Do you know Delores Jensen?
Mr Courville: Yes, I do.
Mr Bradley: And Delores Jensen would be a person who worked actively to get you elected?
Mr Courville: She was a member of my campaign committee, yes.
Mr Bradley: Do you not feel that the public may perceive, when they see you appointed to the board of police commissioners and they see Delores Jensen, who was active in your campaign, that this is in essence a payoff for being loyal to the party?
Mr Courville: I don't know what the public would perceive, to be honest, sir. I know that Delores Jensen is a very active lady in the community. She's active in senior citizen circles. She has, I think, a sense of what she would like to see as a publicly safe and secure community in Cornwall, and I would think she would make a very valuable contribution to that board. I would hope that her contribution would be weighed independently of her politics in the same way that mine might.
The Chair: Your time is finished, Mr Bradley; I'm sorry. Mr McLean.
1050
Mr McLean: Mr Courville, letters were sent to the local MPPs as well as local town, municipal and regional councils requesting that they submit names and résumés. Are you aware of any résumés sent or recommended by the city council?
Mr Courville: No, I'm not.
Mr McLean: Are you aware of any other people who applied for the position?
Mr Courville: No, I'm not.
Mr McLean: Are you familiar with any other members of the board other than the person my colleague mentioned?
Mr Courville: I know the mayor is a member by definition. I believe there's another gentleman by the name of Mr Towndale who's a member. I've never spoken to him about that.
Mr McLean: How many members are on the board, including the city representatives?
Mr Courville: I'm just guessing, but I believe it's five. The police chief is involved, of course.
Mr McLean: The Solicitor General made an announcement the other day with regard to lethal weapons. Do you have any opinion on that?
Mr Courville: I'm sorry, with respect to the reporting aspect?
Mr McLean: In the area of less-than-lethal force. All classes of less-than-lethal weapons used by police officers under the proposed regulations would be subject to ministry approval.
Mr Courville: I just caught that on the news last night. My reaction is that in terms of public accountability, I believe the police, in so far as they're more community-oriented, community-involved, aid themselves through a process of public accountability. If that accountability can be enhanced through a system of reporting in terms of the use of their weapon, then ultimately I think that will have to help the police in terms of their own safety. In terms of the use of alternative methods of force to pulling a gun and shooting it, I think probably every method should be explored. I'm not an expert on the use of force and I would think that would have to be looked at very carefully.
Mr McLean: Are you aware of any cases in Cornwall where you have felt a personal opinion that extra force has been used that should not have been -- that the police force uses excess force?
Mr Courville: I'm not aware of any public denouncement of that kind of force.
Mr McLean: Do you believe that even in what happened here in Toronto the police overreacted?
Mr Courville: Being a lawyer, I'd like to be fully conversant with all the facts, and I'm really not. I know on the surface I think it would be wise for the police, in any situation I would think, to report all of the circumstances and to determine exactly what happened and what might have been avoided, if anything might have been avoided.
Mr McLean: Do you think Stephen Lewis had all the facts when he made his report?
Mr Courville: I don't know, sir. I'm not Stephen Lewis. I'm not in a position to comment on that.
Mr Will Ferguson (Kitchener): I've received a number of phone calls regarding appointments as well, and people couldn't believe we would appoint Bob Nixon, the former leader of the Liberal Party, as the agent general. They blew their stack in my riding when we appointed Andy Brandt. It was unbelievable that we would appoint the Liberal Deputy Minister of Energy, Marc Eliesen, to the chair of Hydro. They just found that very contentious. Even locally in my area I still get calls when we appoint people like alderman Bryan Stortz, who was a director of five local Liberal campaigns.
This door does in fact swing both ways. I think it's most unfair to walk in here this morning and use sleazy, slimeball tactics to suggest, because somebody happens to be a member of the --
The Chair: I want to bring you to order on that kind of language. I would appreciate you not using that kind of language, Mr Ferguson.
Mr Grandmaître: We're not in the House. You can't use this language here.
Ms Carter: Only in the House.
The Chair: In any event, proceed. We're pretty open in this committee in terms of the politicization of these questions. I don't mind that. It's just the use of that kind of language.
Mr Ferguson: I'll withdraw that. I'll rephrase that.
To use questionable tactics to suggest that because somebody happens to be a card-carrying member of the government party automatically ought to disqualify that individual from serving the province of Ontario and, more particularly, his or her community, is just unbelievable.
These guys wrote the book on patronage. They could certainly show us a thing or two and be more than happy. All your research people stack up your numbers of whom you appointed politically to various positions across the province and how many were card-carrying Liberals, as opposed to how many we have appointed. The only reason that information has not been brought to light is because it would not bode his argument very well.
I'd like to ask Mr Courville this morning: You've outlined some of the areas you have been involved in that you think qualify you for the position. Do you have any thoughts this morning on community policing as opposed to the past experience of policing in communities where police generally would just respond to a call? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Mr Courville: Yes, I think this is clearly the direction of policing in the future in a number of respects. I noticed that in terms of just the physical presence in Ottawa recently. The use of police on bicycles is very refreshing because these people talk to the local store owners; they talk to people going up and down the malls. There's a sort of pleasant, easygoing kind of interrelationship between the police and the community, just by the fact that they're using bicycles, that I haven't noticed before.
In Cornwall they have a number of active programs where the police are going out and talking to kids in schools about the use of drugs. They're talking to various women's organizations on the issue of domestic abuse. As in all areas, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in so far as education can be used as a tool to develop a rapport within the community. I think it's going to save a lot of dollars at the enforcement end. I would certainly be very keen in seeing all police forces move towards a community orientation.
That would include also hiring people from all community segments. In Cornwall, for example, we have a large native population. We've had problems, tension, in the past. We have a large problem with smuggling cigarettes and alcohol. It seems many of the people who appear in court in conjunction with those charges are people of native origin. I noticed just recently the Cornwall police have hired more people of native origin. I think this can only help.
Mr Ferguson: I have another question. Mr Courville, since your party affiliation seems to be the main focus this morning, could you enlighten this committee? Are you aware of any other present or past members of the police services board in Cornwall who have had any political affiliation with any political party, either openly or being card-carrying members or openly active members of other political parties?
Mr Courville: I haven't gone up to them and asked them if they're card-carrying members of the Liberal Party, the Conservative Party or whatever. But I believe that there are people who have served on the board who are actively supporting one or other of our political parties.
Mr Grandmaître: But you don't know.
Mr Courville: I can't honestly say they're members of a party.
1100
Mr Wiseman: I'd like to begin by saying that police services boards play a very important role in my community. This government reappointed a very fine and distinguished woman to be the chair, who received an award just recently for her dedication and service. Her name is Gwen Mowbray. Her husband is, I believe, something like the national director for the Liberal Party. We have appointed others who have known Liberal ties.
The point I'm going to make here is that in fact this is a different process. We talked about the agencies, boards and commissions book. Perhaps you could describe for us what other areas listed in that book may be of some interest to you.
Mr Courville: Sure. One of the areas I found interesting was the health area. The district health council is a very interesting area for me. I'm concerned about health issues generally. I found the area of tourism, particularly the St Lawrence Parks area, an interesting area.
Generally speaking, I guess I was looking for areas that were of interest from an occupational and regional point of view in terms of the Cornwall area, so I was looking at health, tourism, generally the environment and education, as well as the policing area.
Mr Wiseman: I have received a large number of people who come through my constituency office. I have a copy of the book in my office and I encourage people to come in and apply. When people phone up and ask about these patronage appointments and so on, I say: "Well, come on up to the office and look in the book. You can apply and put in your résumé just like everybody else is doing in this province to get a position." I think that is different. We are taking résumés from people and people are getting jobs who would not be considered because they weren't in the inner circles of the previous governments' parties.
Mr Bradley: Like Elie Martel, Odoardo Di Santo and George Samis.
Mr Wiseman: I see the decision being different. I think you should know that you should take a great deal of satisfaction out of knowing that your being here today has attracted Mr Bradley to come here because he does not often grace this committee with his presence except when he can make political statements like he made earlier and comments like he's been making now.
Mr Bradley: What do you think of that, Mr Chair?
The Chair: I have difficulty with that sort of remark, Mr Wiseman, as the Chair. In the House that's sort of an attack on the integrity of another member and I think it is inappropriate. I think you can be critical of Mr Bradley's comments but I don't think it's appropriate for a member of this assembly to take that sort of approach.
Mr Wiseman: Mr Chair, when I see the examples of the approach from the opposition change then I will change my approach as well. Thank you.
The Chair: For your advice, I'm indicating to you that I am not going to accept that kind of behaviour, and if need be, Mr Wiseman and other members of the committee -- and this applies to all members of the committee. I have limited powers in this chair but one of them is the right to refuse to recognize and I'm advising you now that if that sort of language and that sort of personal attack on another member occurs, that is one of the prerogatives available to me and I'm quite prepared to exercise it.
Sir, the time has concluded. Thank you for coming up from Cornwall. We appreciate it and wish you well.
CAROL DEVINE
The Chair: The next intended appointment is Carol Devine, who is an intended appointee as a member of the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education. Ms Devine, would you like to come forward, please? Welcome to the committee. Perhaps you will be able to change the mood in here this morning.
Mrs Carol Devine: I hope so.
The Chair: Your review was a selection of the government party. I look to Mr Wiseman to begin the questioning.
Mr Wiseman: Thank you for coming. I have an interest in the education field since I've spent 15 years as a secondary school teacher. I think that the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education is facing some very major challenges over the next few years, so I don't envy your going to the institute at this time.
One of the major developments in the next little while is that a number of teachers, at least in the secondary school panels that I know of, are going to start to move out into retirement at rates that are greater than teachers coming in from the various colleges and universities around the province. How do we meet this demand? How do we restructure the system, or what can be done? Do you have any ideas on that at all?
Mrs Devine: I suppose the simplest, but perhaps also simplistic, answer to that would be to gauge the number of admissions into our faculties of education according to the perceived needs over the future years.
I think we all know there are many highly qualified young people, some with considerable experience in different types of education and experience with young people, who don't have access to faculties of education at this time. Resources are limited. That certainly has an impact on all of the services we provide.
How that balance can be achieved I think needs to be looked at. As you say, when the retirement level reaches the height we know it's going to reach, we're going to have serious problems. We may have to perhaps look at alternative kinds of programs for teachers.
It's a bit ironic, I suppose. At the same time as we're looking at possible shortages, in my mind we're looking at an area where teachers require more and more in terms of pre-service training to prepare them to even handle the job they're doing. It's going to be a very serious challenge, certainly.
Mr Wiseman: Compounding that challenge, of course, are the dollars that are necessary. As more and more of our young people opt for continued education, the amount of necessary dollars is going to be great as well. My sense from where I sit is that there does seem to be an overburden of administration in the educational system. This concerns me because as I saw the budget of at least the board I worked with increase, I also saw the expansion of the administration of the boards. I often wondered, when I was standing in front of my classroom and seeing these funds increase in terms of spending, what it was doing for me in my ability to be a better teacher and to include more students in the process.
It took me a long time, but I reluctantly came to the conclusion that the administration is top-heavy and in fact is not contributing to the actual teaching of the student. Have you any thoughts on that, since I read your curriculum?
Mrs Devine: I suppose, first of all, my personal experience is from a system. As a trustee sitting on the Metropolitan Separate School Board, I have one perspective; as a member of the board of directors of the Ontario Separate School Trustees' Association, I have a different perspective. But my experience is all within the separate school system. I certainly agree that we need to be very aware of the balance between administrative costs and direct service costs, the relationship between the two and how one helps the other.
My own experience, quite honestly, has been in separate school systems where in fact our administrative costs, we believe, are very spare and very frugal in relationship to, perhaps, the way other boards conduct their business. We work at that in a concentrated fashion. We have to; we don't have the resources to do anything differently. We do try to concentrate our services in direct service.
I agree with you: The resources need to go to the students in the best fashion possible. Not that you don't need administration -- you need it for support -- but there is a point of reason.
Mr Wiseman: My next question is going to take a little different tack. I came through the university system. I majored in history. I have a master's degree in history. I went to OISE to do my teaching certificate, and I was a little disappointed with what I received at OISE. I felt when I went into the classroom that perhaps I wasn't prepared in terms of having a good understanding of the level of education they were at and where I was at, and it came as a rude shock in terms of being able to change the communication strategies I had used for university to be able to teach in high school.
In terms of curriculum, we have a lot of problems: We have the multicultural situations that are developing; we have the integration of disabled into the system. Just how do we restructure the courses at OISE in order to make the teachers better aware of testing, being able to test, interpreting the results, being able to work with the kids in order to make sure we identify early enough that they don't read or they don't write or they don't think at the levels that are necessary to move them through the system?
1110
Mrs Devine: First of all, the courses that are provided at OISE have to be in logical relationship to other courses that are provided, for example, in faculties of education. In both cases, it's critical for those who design the courses to be in contact with the reality of the world in the classroom. For example, you've mentioned the whole question of integration of special-needs students, which is the way we are going and I believe the way we should be going. But the attendant pressures and requirements that places on our classroom teachers, many of whom have not been trained for that type of experience, is great.
Educational institutions like OISE have to be in direct contact, probably through committee and through direct representation from front-line teachers, to know what these needs are and then to design courses which meet these needs. I think that's a need at the front end before teachers go into the classroom as new teachers. What we're seeing now is that because the rate of change in education is as great as it is -- because of changes in population, changes in needs, changes in social structure -- post-graduate studies, if you want to call them that, or continuing in-service, is becoming more and more important.
Mr Wiseman: In terms of the foundations of education, the very major, important foundation starts before students even get to the school. I believe it is comprised of what happens in the home environment, around a culture of learning that is created in the home, whether there are magazines or books or encyclopaedia or discussions or whatever takes place. In the absence of that learning culture in the home it makes it extremely difficult, if not almost impossible, for the education system to function.
Is there any way a culture can be created in the home prior to the student coming into the system? Have you given any thought to how that can be accomplished? To me, it's one of the most serious problems we're confronting, a negativity towards education, a negativity towards teachers and a negativity towards the system. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Mrs Devine: First of all, I'm not sure what the role of the education system is prior to the time the student becomes part of the education system when he enrols in school. Certainly once the child is within the school environment it's beneficial all the way around for the school to make a concentrated and legitimate effort to involve the parents in the education of that child as much as possible. The whole thrust towards junior kindergarten is an excellent way of providing for children who don't naturally have a good home environment which promotes educational values to enter into that kind of environment earlier. I certainly agree with you that the home and the values held in the home and the emphasis put on skills such as reading and so on, communication skills within the home, make a tremendous difference in the way children are able to progress once they do come to school.
The Chair: I'm going to have to cut you off there, sorry. Mr Bradley.
Mr Bradley: This is one of the appointments recommended by the association, is it?
Mrs Devine: That's right.
Mr Bradley: And they choose from whomever they see fit, quite obviously.
A question on teacher education; Mr Wiseman approached this question earlier. There's a dilemma out there of the number of teachers who are in the system, the number of people who are in colleges of education and the number of people who would like to be in colleges of education. Many of us who are provincial representatives are now getting calls from people saying, "My daughter" or "my son has exceptionally good marks, is a person who has experiences that would be conducive to being a good candidate for a college of education, but there is simply no room in that college of education."
My response in defence of the Ministry of Colleges and Universities -- this is where I'd like to see if I'm saying the right thing -- is that there aren't that many positions. At one time we allowed a lot of people into colleges of education and they couldn't get jobs in any event and they went somewhere else. I guess some of them have come back into the system. You would be familiar, I think, through the other hat you wear as well. Are we likely to see a crash need for a lot of teachers by the end of this century, which is only eight years from now?
Mrs Devine: I think there are several things happening. For one thing, the need at this point in time is certainly being tempered by budget restraints which are being placed on boards. I know, for example, in our own board, although we would normally hire 200 new teachers we would need at the beginning of the school year, we're hiring 25 or 30 this year. One of the reasons for that is specialized positions and resource teacher positions have had to be cancelled and these people are going back into the classroom.
In the short run, I think the budgetary crunch is decreasing the number of teachers we need. However, it's very true, as was mentioned earlier, that there a large number of teachers are coming close to retirement age; from what I understand, there will be a period when there will be many teachers retiring. Depending on many things at that time, I don't think we really have any reason to believe that the population will be declining or the rate of needed service will be that much lower that that's not going to make a difference. I think it is going to make a significant difference. Probably within the next 10 to 12 to 15 years a lot of these teachers who all entered teaching at the same time will all be eligible for retirement and will be leaving us. It is coming.
Mr Bradley: One of the significant roles OISE has played over the years, despite its critics -- there have been people who've even wanted to abolish OISE from time to time -- certainly has been in the area of research into education.
You're a Metropolitan Toronto separate school trustee, so you'd see probably even more radical changes in terms of the components of the system than I would in St Catharines or Lincoln county. What new attributes will teachers have to have, aside from the one I thought you identified, which was very appropriate, and that was the ability to handle children who are being integrated into the system? What other components of a good teacher education program are we going to be looking at in the next several years?
Mrs Devine: I know best Metropolitan Toronto, and certainly the whole aspect of multiculturalism is one that teachers are going to have to be very much sensitized to, both in terms of knowing more about cultures and the meaning of various things within different cultures and how to appropriately react to children from different cultures within the school system. That obviously won't be an issue in the smaller centres in the province, but it certainly will be in the urban localities.
To me, it seems there are more changes -- at least from what I can see -- being considered for the education system in a very collapsed time point than I've been familiar with in many years past in many different ways. Perhaps in the past pre-service training and professional development days and some additional training may have been sufficient for teachers, but it seems to me that the whole component of in-service is going to have to be stepped up in areas such as curriculum when we're looking at the restructuring the government is proposing now. Certainly that's going to have a tremendous impact. For example, secondary school teachers who are working in a streamed model now are going to be faced with destreaming to some extent or other. It's a different way of teaching. Our secondary school teachers are not, to my knowledge, prepared for that. That's going to make a great difference and they're going to need the support to be able to do that.
1120
Mr Bradley: On that issue -- I don't know whether it's a fair question or not, but when you have somebody who knows a lot about education, you like to tap that resource. On the issue of destreaming, there are proponents of it within the last government and the present government in the Ministry of Education or ministers of Education; there is some significant opposition to destreaming, completely opposed, within the membership of OSSTF as well as its leadership; and others would be in the category of being cautious about its implementation. Do you have any views on the ramifications of destreaming for our school system?
Mrs Devine: I think the ramifications are considerable. As a separate school trustee -- or a trustee, period -- I'm very well aware of the resource ramifications. I know, for example, of one of our high schools where someone is teaching mathematics in one of the pilot destreamed projects and is teaching within one classroom probably about 25 or 30 students. They're not basic, general or advanced level. They're the kids who would have been in one of those three, and they're all together in the same room and he's using seven different textbooks.
This is a lot of pressure on a classroom teacher who, as I said before, has not prepared at the secondary school level as much as our elementary school teachers may have been to do this type of grouping and that kind of thing. Certainly the question of how many students can be taught in a classroom is coming from the teachers. If you're going to use a destreamed model, what should the cap on class size be so that the teacher can give the individualized attention that's required?
As a trustee, I come at it from the other point of view, which is, how much can we afford in terms of reduced class sizes? The concept of giving students the best possible opportunity to feel good about what they're doing and to experience success I think is the right one, and hopefully that's what destreaming will contribute to. But it won't work if we don't have the resources to make it work. That, I suppose, is what everybody's concern is about.
Mr Bradley: A final question. I have not been inside a classroom as a teacher for 15 years. With all the changes in education, what would be my chances of lasting more than a week in a classroom?
Mrs Devine: It probably would depend on which classroom you picked and how old the students were.
The Chair: Mr McLean, do you have any questions?
Mr McLean: Yes, I have some questions. Being that you're involved in the education field, currently a Metropolitan trustee --
Mrs Devine: That's right.
Mr McLean: Literacy is a great concern to me. I have often wondered why there are so many people going through the system, falling through the cracks. What happens and who evaluates the teaching profession?
Mrs Devine: Who evaluates the teaching profession?
Mr McLean: Yes, in your board.
Mrs Devine: Teachers are evaluated by the principal, and the superintendent in conjunction with the principal. We have an evaluation process and teachers are to be evaluated by their immediate superior -- who is normally the principal in an elementary school; in a secondary school, it would be the department head and the principal -- on an ongoing, annual basis in terms of their performance.
Mr McLean: What happens with a teacher who is incompetent?
Mrs Devine: I guess it depends on your definition of incompetent. If there are teachers who are struggling with a particular aspect of their teaching, the first thing that would happen is that supports would be brought in to assist them in improving whatever area that is. They would be monitored. Suggestions would be made. They would be involved in the process of drawing up those suggestions and would agree to the process along the way. Then their progress would be reviewed over a period of time and hopefully progress would be made and the process would continue until the problem was addressed.
There are situations -- few that I'm aware of, but there are situations -- where teachers are not able, for whatever reason, to make use of that kind of procedure and are not able, for whatever reason, to improve. Then you must go on to the next step. There have been teachers whose contracts have been terminated.
Mr McLean: Have there been terminations on your board because of incompetence?
Mrs Devine: Yes.
Mr McLean: We don't hear much about that.
Mrs Devine: I can speak from personal experience. I know where, on one board, it definitely has happened. As I say, it hasn't happened often. We have 6,000 teachers and I've probably seen six in four years as a trustee, but we're very concerned about having competent teachers in our classrooms and we do everything we can to help them to improve. It doesn't happen overnight that they are not able to teach with our board any longer, but there are some teachers who are perhaps better suited to another profession.
Mr McLean: In your opinion, why is the illiteracy rate so high?
Mrs Devine: I guess I haven't formed a definitive opinion on that. I think there are several factors. One question I still haven't answered for myself is the definition -- I hear this terminology -- of "functional illiteracy." I think literacy is dependent upon the time and the place and the kind of literacy required to function within the workplace, so I'm not sure that what we're defining today as "literacy" is necessarily what we defined a few years ago. I'm not totally up on that but I've certainly heard things in that area.
I also think we must acknowledge the fact -- and again I'm using Metropolitan Toronto as an example because it's what I know -- that we are dealing with many students whose first language is not English when they come into our schools and yet when they go out into the workplace, by and large they are expected to function in English. It's very important for us to provide sufficient resources for these young people to become fluent and well equipped in writing, reading, computer skills or whatever they need, within the language they must perform in, so the whole multilingual, multicultural aspect, I think, needs to be addressed. These students can certainly achieve and achieve well, but they need help to do so.
The other thing, which was mentioned before, is that I think our culture has perhaps not as strong a value on education and the need for the family and other parts of the social structure to support children in their education as perhaps we have had in the past. None of that in any way is meant to excuse the education system by saying, "Well, we don't have a role to play here." We most certainly do and we need to continue to find better ways of helping our students, no matter what their background, no matter what the difficulty, to come out at the end of it all as productive and literate.
Mr McLean: I would like to touch on the subject of discipline. Do you believe our school system is showing enough discipline?
Mrs Devine: Again it's hard for me to make global statements. I think discipline is extremely important. Students need to know what the rules are and to have them enforced. I also know that the way discipline given by schools, as reacted to by parents and the community, is quite different than what it was previously. That affects the kind and the amount of discipline schools feel empowered to use with their students. We certainly have some work to do in that whole area.
Mr McLean: But as this came from the ministry years ago, do you think the ministry has made it so that teachers -- I think teachers today have the hardest job ever because their hands are tied on so many things. I basically want to find out if their hands are tied too much.
Mrs Devine: There is still, within the Education Act, the ability to do what the teacher or the principal feels is necessary to maintain good order within their school. I guess the problem becomes, before any teacher or principal would take a disciplinary action, unfortunately -- or fortunately; there's both sides to look at -- they have to think through the ramifications. The ramifications today, quite honestly, may well be very different than they would have been, and what is acceptable to the general public or families is quite different than what it was in the past. Are their hands tied? No, they're certainly not legally tied. However, there are societal pressures the teachers have to contend with before they make a decision about how they're going to discipline.
1130
Mr McLean: Do I have a couple of minutes, Mr Chair?
The Chair: You have, yes.
Mr McLean: One final question: At the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, what do you believe will be your function in serving on that board?
Mrs Devine: My particular area of interest is certainly in curriculum. I have children in the school system, I work very closely with our own schools and I'm very interested in the kinds of research that are being done in education in terms of outcome and resources necessary, that type of thing. If I were to pick an aspect of OISE that I am most interested in, it would certainly be in the curriculum that is being offered there for teachers.
Mr McLean: Thank you. I wish you well.
The Chair: That concludes the questioning, Mrs Devine, and thank you very much. We appreciate your appearance here.
Mrs Devine: Thank you.
JOHN SANDERSON
The Chair: Our final witness is John Sanderson. Mr Sanderson is the intended appointee as a member of the Ontario International Corp board of directors. He was selected for review by the government party. Mr Frankford will begin the questioning.
Mr Frankford: I notice that your background is in transportation.
Mr John Sanderson: Yes, it is, sir.
Mr Frankford: Could you share some thoughts about what Ontario would have to offer the world in the way of transportation?
Mr Sanderson: I guess I've been involved in one of the things myself. I was involved in a project through the World Bank, the Canadian International Development Agency and a Canadian-Ontario consulting company in Tanzania. We travelled to Tanzania and I spent six weeks there doing research into operations of buses and trucks and highways and, to a lesser degree hotels and tourism for Tanzania. We made many recommendations for improvement of the operations, which were implemented and which assisted Tanzania in getting funds from the World Bank. But it was through Canadian consulting experience, and as a result Ontario firms, and Canadian firms as well, sold quite a pile of equipment to Tanzania in the process. I think that is the kind of service Ontario can provide to other countries in the transportation area.
Mr Frankford: I gather you would feel, using that as a precedent, that we should sell systems and expertise first and that manufactured goods come second.
Mr Sanderson: I don't necessarily believe in tying the sale of goods to those services, but I think knowledge of what's going on in projects that are under way in other countries would be communicated back to Canadian suppliers who aggressively go after the business. I think that's the way it should go. In other words, they should be competitive. It shouldn't necessarily be tied to other business.
Mr Frankford: If I can just briefly go into another area that I'm very interested in, I'm sorry you weren't here for the full morning, because we started off with Fred Griffith who is from Sault Ste Marie, and he described how the highly successful health centre that he was a major influence in building up over the years is a real magnet for consultations from all over, to see how a health system can work and be model for less-developed countries and the US -- although maybe that's an underdeveloped country in this respect since they haven't got anything like a national health system. Do you have any thoughts about how we could link our health system with the appointment that you're going to have?
Mr Sanderson: Clearly, there are many, many areas in the underdeveloped world where Canadian expertise in health services is already partly there, but where Ontario expertise particularly could be promoted and supplied to developing countries. It's not just health education but environmental education and general education, where Ontario universities and colleges have been very active in countries like Japan, Malawi, Zambia and a growing list of countries that have recognized our ability in the education, health, environment and agricultural fields.
I think the important thing is to recognize those opportunities, in the developing world particularly, come back and make our own service industries aware of these opportunities and then encourage them to get involved either with local consortia in these countries or with consortia from other countries to provide those services. Sometimes that takes a little financial encouragement as well to get them started, but quite often these projects become quite self-sufficient in due time. I think that probably the role of the Ontario International Corp is to find out about opportunities in other lands and then to encourage our service industries particularly to get out there and provide those services.
Mr Ferguson: Welcome to the committee. First of all, have you ever been a member of a political party or a supporter of a political party?
Mr Sanderson: No. I have voted actively for a number of parties and I guess I've been a member of two parties in the past, not a political member but a local supporter of candidates over the years.
Mr Ferguson: It's been suggested by the Ontario International Corp and some of its officials that the only way firms from Ontario can gain that competitive edge is by forming a consortium or doing a joint venture for companies or countries overseas. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Mr Sanderson: In one of our businesses we're involved in the international freight-forwarding business and we have found our greatest success has been to team up with local nationals in various countries. As a result of that, we have partnerships in South America, in the Far East, in Europe, in Africa and in Eastern Europe, where our development has been much more significant in providing transportation services to those countries by working with a local representative. It has worked and I think it's worked much more favourably then when we tried to establish our own office and deal on a firsthand basis with Ontario or Canadian people in those countries.
I sort of lean towards those kinds of local joint ventures with the customer countries rather than not working with them. I think it's been more effective. I guess if other countries are working with Canada as well, I would probably encourage them to make joint ventures with people in Ontario rather than just come in and try to relearn the world in Ontario. That would be my leaning.
Mr Ferguson: Could I ask one more question? Could you tell me how you became aware that there would be a vacancy or a possible appointment to this position?
Mr Sanderson: Certainly. I was contacted by a representative of the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Technology to see if I was interested in working on the board. The workings of the corporation were explained to me, which I was somewhat aware of from a previous life. I was interested. I am interested. I think, having travelled extensively in the world and done business around the world, there are opportunities we're missing and I believe I can assist the corporation in seeking out those opportunities. It came to me, I pondered it and I am interested.
The Chair: Mr Wiseman, there's time for a quick question.
Mr Wiseman: This question was actually posed to me by some small businessmen in my riding. I thought it was really quite an interesting question. Because they're so preoccupied on a day-to-day basis with the operation -- and they're not big; they only have maybe 10 or 15 people working for them -- they're sort of in the position where they have as much as this market can offer but they don't have the resources available to get into another market and then make the jump that's necessary to continue to have economies of scale.
How can small businesses become known to foreign buyers and therefore become big businesses?
Mr Sanderson: I think that's what this is all about. First of all, the objective of the Ontario International Corp is to seek out those people in Ontario who want to sell their services in other parts of the world and register them so that they know, "I have this service and I want to sell it internationally."
Second, the corporation then, through its contacts and visits to other countries, determines what projects might be available, comes back and approaches those people who have expressed an interest in international sales or services and says: "Here's an opportunity. India wants to provide a hydro service or a new sewer service in Bombay. You've expressed an interest. Here's a project. How can we help you to get together and make this bid successful in Bombay?"
Whether it's a large or small company in Ontario is really immaterial. The main thing is to have an interest, not be sure about how to go about it and then find out more about it through the corporation and move on from there.
1140
Mr Grandmaître: What has been your experience with the Canadian International Development Agency?
Mr Sanderson: I haven't worked directly with CIDA. CIDA was a cosponsor with the World Bank of a project that I worked on personally in Tanzania. It was a project where I worked as a consultant for six weeks in Africa with the Tanzania State Railway Corp, which provides railway, bus, truck and hotel services in the country. The service was in very substantially poor condition with broken-down vehicles, a lack of organization and yet a very highly trained workforce.
What we attempted to do in the study was put forth recommendations to make the trucking service more effective, quite a long-term CIDA-related project to make the railways more effective, and as well we made a number of recommendations for the hotel industry and the tourism industry generally. My part of it was chiefly the bus and truck operations and how to organize them in a way in which they could use their highly trained workforce in a better way and also to support their request for more modern equipment to run the operation, which we were successful in doing.
Mr Grandmaître: The federal government is planning major cutbacks to CIDA for a number of reasons. I happened to be in Africa visiting a number of these CIDA projects.
The Chair: Mr Grandmaître, I apologize. I won't stop your time here, but Mr Waters apparently has something relevant to add at this point.
Mr Daniel Waters (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): I'd just like to put on clarification that indeed Mr Sanderson is not only a member of the board but is also being put forward as the chair. Just so that, when you do your questioning, you realize that you're dealing with not only a member of the board but also with the chair. It was something that we were just getting clarified because it didn't appear that way. We had to go back through.
Mr Grandmaître: Major change, major, major.
The federal government is planning major cutbacks on the CIDA programs. I agree with their reasoning. I think there are a lot of wasted dollars. In your mainly transportation experience, buses and trucks and so on and so forth, you know most of these countries don't have a decent road. Why would we waste money on giving them expertise and busing and trucking when they don't even have roads?
Mr Sanderson: Tanzania has a fairly well-developed road system, although there are only a few major trunk roads linking its population.
Mr Grandmaître: That's right.
Mr Sanderson: But the difficulties they have are that with the transportation system, outside of the road structure, there are occasions when people travelling for work in one area to another would be on a bus that breaks down and, with very little communication, might sit by the side of the road for three or four days until assistance arrives to either take them on to their work or supply a replacement bus, or whatever.
It's one of the reasons the agricultural systems, the health systems and other systems in these countries are breaking down and require so much money and help from other countries: The basic transportation structure has broken down. It's not so much the roads -- the roads are passable and in some cases quite well-maintained -- but the vehicle system structure and the organization need a lot of work and a lot of help. In many cases it's not a lot of dollars that are required; it's just a little bit of money and a little bit of organization and perhaps overcoming some of the political roadblocks that exist in some of these countries.
I think projects such as I was on can be very beneficial for very few dollars, most of which are provided not by CIDA but by the World Bank. It may be that there aren't enough CIDA people out in the field working on these things. There may be too many of them in Ottawa, but I don't know whether that's true or not. I know they are cutting back in Ottawa.
Mr Grandmaître: In my experience with CIDA, again in Africa, the most serious complaint was that there was very little follow-up on the part of the federal government as to the success of these programs. You did mention that sometimes it takes very few dollars to obtain success, but I've seen hundreds of thousands of dollars being wasted --
Mr Wiseman: Millions.
Mr Grandmaître: No, not millions. They were small projects.
The biggest complaint from some Canadians was that there was no follow-up on these programs. In other words, a program would take place in 1992 and in 1993 this project would be visited a second time and that project was non-existent; it was gone. People felt it was a waste of money. What are your thoughts on that?
Mr Sanderson: I guess I've seen waste in projects, but the purpose of the project I was on was to set long-term goals. Previously, money had been given to this country to upgrade its road structure and before the money could be spent in a general way, the money sort of filtered away and went into other projects, or wherever. The World Bank and CIDA jointly said, "We don't like this kind of money just disappearing."
My project was to set down a whole series of about 15 mini-projects that would take place over four or five years, and on completion of each stage additional funds and additional support would be granted to go to the next stage. I really took one project and broke it down into about 15 segments and each one was dependent on the previous one having been done.
I've personally kept in contact with the people involved in this area and in fact it's taking place and the steps are being done and the improvements are being put in place. I haven't kept in touch with what CIDA and the World Bank are doing, but I know there are audit procedures as well. I'm satisfied personally that my work wasn't wasted and that something's been done and the amount of money being spent is relatively small.
Mr Grandmaître: Good luck to you.
Mr Sanderson: Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr Sanderson. We appreciate your appearance here today.
Mr Sanderson: Thank you.
1150
The Chair: The next matter of business is a determination on whether we concur with the appointments of the witnesses who appeared today.
I want to bring to your attention the matter that Mr Waters raised about Mr Sanderson's appointment as both a member of the Ontario International Corp and as chair. We have some concerns that -- and I think Mr Waters may want to comment on this -- there was an oversight on the part of someone in respect to the certificate that was forwarded to this committee. We, under the standing order, have the authority to review the certificates given to the committee, and the order-in-council certificate did not indicate that Mr Sanderson was to be appointed as chair.
I support the clerk's view on this that we should defer the motion respecting Mr Sanderson, if it involves his appointment as chair, until next week so we can be assured that we complying with our standing order. I don't think that creates any real difficulties. If we passed the motion as it appeared before us and appeared in the certificate today, he could be appointed as a member, but that gets into further difficulties about his appointment as chair, so I think it might smooth things over if we simply deferred it until next week.
Mr Waters: The reason that I was out and why I came in and did that was to allow some questioning, because I understand where the clerk is coming from, and indeed he knows better than I the rules of this place, but I just wanted to try to do it in such a way that we didn't have to ask the gentleman to come back again for another round of questioning. If indeed it takes a week's delay in order to do things correctly, then I don't see us necessarily having any problem with that.
The Chair: If we're in violation or exceeding the standing order, for example, and we think that perhaps the government can provide us with an additional certificate by next Wednesday, we simply do not have to call the gentleman back and we can do the approval. But we don't want to be in violation of a standing order; that's essentially the concern.
Mr Grandmaître: I pointed out that maybe we should appoint Mr Sanderson as a member and simply receive a letter of intention or whatever from the secretariat saying that Mr Sanderson will be chair.
The Chair: That's a separate order-in-council appointment. We have some concerns here, and I don't hear any problem coming from the government members, either, in respect to deferring this for one week so we're sure about what we're doing and we don't cause more problems than we resolve. That's all.
Mr Wiseman: Let's do it according to the rules. That way, we're all safe.
Mr Ferguson: We don't want to generate any more paperwork.
Mr Grandmaître: I was willing to accept him as a member now.
The Chair: I think everybody is, but that's not the problem.
Can we have one motion then in respect to the other intended appointees, Mr Griffith, Mr Courville, Mrs Devine, unless any member wishes to deal with them individually?
Mr Rosario Marchese (Fort York): I move adoption.
The Chair: Moved by Mr Marchese. Do we concur? All in favour? Opposed?
Motion agreed to.
The Chair: One final thing. The clerk is going to circulate a letter for you to take a look at, which is from the Kingston, Frontenac & Lennox & Addington District Health Council. It's a copy of a letter sent to the Premier expressing concerns about the review process and the concerns of one of their appointees who appeared before us some time ago and suggesting ways in which the process can be improved upon but from their perspective. So it's just something to consider, and we can perhaps discuss it at a future date.
Mr Wiseman: This second point, "that arrangements be made to pay the costs associated with the volunteer appearing before the review committee."
The Chair: It has been sent to the Premier's Office and I'm sure that Ms Pearson is aware of that comment. It ties into the problem we had again with the Ministry of Health with an individual appearing before us. But we think that whole question has been resolved. I'm getting a nod from Ms Pearson.
Mr Ferguson: Mr Chair, just very briefly: That raises a whole other set of questions. I think we have to recognize and maybe we have to make it very clear to the applicants, through the clerk, when they apply and they are coming before this committee, that we are a little more interested in the quality of the individuals rather than the knowledge base of the position that they are going to assume. I think it's taken for granted that individuals are not experts in any particular field. I wouldn't expect somebody sitting on the police services board, for example, or a district health council or any other number of agencies, to be an expert in that field and have all the up-to-date information of the latest-breaking events for that particular area.
I think it's very threatening for some individuals to appear here for the first time, and obviously this letter that we just received is indicating that. It can be an intimidating process for people to go through when maybe they just want to contribute to the health of their community by sitting on the district health council.
The Chair: I appreciate that. I'd rather not get into a lengthy discussion of it at this stage. We will certainly try to devote time to that. Maybe there's some way we can do that.
Mr Ferguson: Maybe we could communicate that to the individuals, with the concurrence of everybody: that we're more interested in them as individuals rather than what they know about the agency, board or commission that they're going to serve on.
The Chair: A fair statement. Meeting adjourned.
The committee adjourned at 1156.