CONTENTS
Wednesday 9 October 1991
Appointments review
Gary Carmichael
Organization
STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
Chair: Runciman, Robert W. (Leeds-Grenville PC)
Vice-Chair: McLean, Allan K. (Simcoe East PC)
Bradley, James J. (St. Catharines L)
Carter, Jenny (Peterborough NDP)
Frankford, Robert (Scarborough East NDP)
Grandmaître, Bernard (Ottawa East L)
Hayes, Pat (Essex-Kent NDP)
McGuinty, Dalton (Ottawa South L)
Stockwell, Chris (Etobicoke West PC)
Waters, Daniel (Muskoka-Georgian Bay NDP)
Wiseman, Jim (Durham West NDP)
Substitutions:
Miclash, Frank (Kenora L) for Mr Bradley
Wood, Len (Cochrane North NDP) for Mr Waters
Clerk: Arnott, Douglas
Staff: Pond, David, Research Officer, Legislative Research Service
The committee met at 1007 in room 228.
APPOINTMENTS REVIEW
Resuming consideration of intended appointments.
GARY CARMICHAEL
The Vice-Chair: The first item on the agenda today is a half-hour review of an intended appointment selection of Mr Gary Carmichael. Mr Carmichael, if you have an opening statement, we would be pleased to hear it. If you do not, we will proceed with questions.
Mr Carmichael: I am fine.
The Vice-Chair: You have no opening statement.
Mr Carmichael: No.
The Vice-Chair: The official opposition is the party that wanted the selection, so we will start off with you, Mr Grandmaître.
Mr Grandmaître: You will be one of the five lay members on the committee, Mr Carmichael, but looking at your past experiences, I think we can consider you an expert in the field. My first question is not directly related to the services. I can recall that back in the early 1980s a number of establishments in Ontario were being sold to American enterprises. Has this trend continued?
Mr Carmichael: There are really three conglomerates now in the bereavement industry. There are Arbor Capital Resources, the Loewen Group and SCI, which is Service Corp International out of Houston. Loewen Group is British Columbia-based. Arbor is in Ontario and it goes right across the country. Loewen, more than anybody, has become the major player in the bereavement industry. If anything, they are expanding into the United States and buying up funeral homes in large sums in the States.
Mr Grandmaître: How many establishments would we have in Ontario?
Mr Carmichael: Funeral homes?
Mr Grandmaître: Yes.
Mr Carmichael: I believe there are about 500.
Mr Grandmaître: How many would be owned by American firms?
Mr Carmichael: I do not know that.
Mr Grandmaître: Would you say few?
Mr Carmichael: There are a few. I would say more would be owned by the Leowen Group.
Mr Grandmaître: Yes. I remember in the early 1980s they were very active in the Ottawa-Carleton area.
Mr Carmichael, you have been around for a number of years. Could you tell me what is the difference between the complaints committee and the discipline committee? I was going through my notes yesterday, and there is very little difference, as far as I am concerned. Can you tell me what the real difference is?
Mr Carmichael: I have to be honest with you. I do not know. I have never been exposed to the Board of Funeral Services before. Primarily, my background is with the cemeteries branch of the ministry and, before that, with the cemetery industry. I am not really familiar too much with how the board is structured.
Mr Grandmaître: Can you tell me something about prepaid funeral services? Are you familiar with the prepaid program?
Mr Carmichael: A little bit. The prepaid funeral service is basically there to protect the consumers, whereby the family wishes to prearrange its funeral services. One hundred per cent of the money goes into trust for those services, with the understanding that the services would be supplied at the time of need. The family is entitled to a complete refund if at any time it wants to change its minds.
Mr Grandmaître: I will be a little parochial in my next question. My mother has a prepaid funeral contract, if I may use the word "contract." I visited the funeral parlour and talked to the director, advising him that I will be responsible for administering this contract. This contract was bought back in 1967, and I asked him what the contract was worth, for instance, in 1991 or 1992. He could not answer me. Where could I get the answer to my question?
Mr Carmichael: I am surprised he could not answer you. Funeral directors have a service fee which includes the use of their chapel. Caskets are priced separately, as are minister, organist, newspaper notices. He should be able to figure out what it is worth today.
Mr Grandmaître: He should?
Mr Carmichael: I would think so.
Mr Grandmaître: These trust funds, where are they invested?
Mr Carmichael: The funeral service?
Mr Grandmaître: Yes. Who controls the investment? There is a compensation fund committee, I think. Where are these moneys invested?
Mr Carmichael: Again, I am not sure of the specifics for the funeral service. I know in the cemeteries, the money is invested with a trustee in accordance with the Trustee Act.
Mr Grandmaître: Who is responsible for the inspection of these trust funds?
Mr Carmichael: With funeral services, I would assume the Board of Funeral Services is. With cemeteries, the cemeteries branch does it.
Mr Grandmaître: One last question. Do you think funeral service establishments should get involved in the total package of funeral services, selling tombstones, a complete service? Do you think we should have -- what is it called -- one-stop shopping?
Mr Carmichael: The legislation prohibits one-stop shopping in the province. A lot of funeral directors already sell monuments. In the past, funeral directors have even controlled the cemetery in the sense that they would call up and say to a municipal cemetery or a church cemetery: "Mrs Jones has passed away. She is to be buried. Would you make arrangements?" He would collect the fee from the family and just pass it right on to the cemetery, or in fact put it on his bill and pay it himself.
Mr Grandmaître: If it was permissible, do you think it would be a cost-saving to the consumer?
Mr Carmichael: I have heard a number of successful arguments on both sides. I know in the United States there are only two or three states that go as far as to separate all three bereavement sectors, funeral, cemetery and monument. Most states and almost every province, with the exception of Ontario and I think Prince Edward Island, allow the combinations.
Mr McGuinty: Mr Carmichael, first, are you aware as to whether there were any other applicants for this position?
Mr Carmichael: I am not aware.
Mr McGuinty: How did you come to express an interest in the position? Did you contact someone or did someone contact you?
Mr Carmichael: I am the registrar for cemeteries for the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations and I was asked if I would serve, if chosen, in an effort to improve the relationship and liaison and communication between the ministry and the Board of Funeral Services.
Mr McGuinty: The fact that you were on the ministry staff was obviously critical in terms of what the ministry was looking for.
Mr Carmichael: I would think so.
Mr McGuinty: Back to this business of pre-paid funerals, as I understand it, if someone enters into that kind of contract, he can cancel that contract prior to his death. Can the family, the next of kin, cancel that contract subsequent to the death?
Mr Carmichael: I would have to check. I am not totally familiar with the funeral legislation, but I believe they can cancel it before the services have been delivered or supplied. At the time of death, if they decided they wanted to go somewhere else, they could do that.
Mr McGuinty: And they are entitled to a refund of the moneys. Those moneys deposited with the funeral home, they are in a trust account of some kind?
Mr Carmichael: Yes.
Mr McGuinty: Do they earn interest?
Mr Carmichael: Yes.
Mr McGuinty: Would I be entitled to that interest if I asked for a refund?
Mr Carmichael: I believe you are entitled to the interest minus an administration fee for the trust.
Mr McGuinty: Does the act regulate those administration fees?
Mr Carmichael: I believe it does. If you want me to spend a few minutes, I could get the answer for you.
Mr McGuinty: Okay, that is fine. Do you have any idea of what the interest rate is on those funds?
Mr Carmichael: I believe it is fairly close to the market rate.
Mr McGuinty: Do you think the operators of transfer services can play a bigger role in the marketplace in order to provide a very low-cost funeral? Right now they are limited to picking up the body, I gather.
Mr Carmichael: Transfer services at present are restricted to picking up a body and delivering it to the cemetery or crematorium. There is a challenge now. They want what is referred to as a stopover provision, which means they could stop off at a church and conduct the service there and then go the cemetery or crematorium.
Mr McLean: Do you know what the makeup of the board is now? Are there any funeral directors on it?
Mr Carmichael: I believe there are five funeral directors and five laypeople. If I can look over my shoulder -- right.
Mr McLean: Do you think there will be a conflict, working for the ministry full-time and being a board member part-time?
Mr Carmichael: I do not see it as being a conflict. First of all, I will not be receiving any remuneration for doing it. Second, the whole purpose, from what I understand, of my being there is just to open the lines of communication between the Board of Funeral Services and the ministry.
Ms Carter: In my home town we have something called a memorial society to which I and my husband belong. I believe what it does is negotiate with one or more local funeral directors a kind of special, basic package which we then pre-arrange, as it were. I wonder what ideas you have on that situation. Do some firms refuse to become involved in that?
Mr Carmichael: The memorial societies basically negotiate low-cost funerals with certain funeral directors across the province. A lot of funeral homes offer the same kind of service, but at the same time do not belong to the memorial society.
What you find happening, though, is a lot of times a family will come in for a memorial society funeral and the funeral director will suggest maybe a little nicer casket, the trimmings per se, and the family will just do it by itself. When they see the casket that has been supplied, out of guilt or grief or love, they will select something nicer.
Ms Carter: Could you tell us what the situation is as regards cremation? I believe in some areas it is not readily available.
Mr Carmichael: In the province, cremation is about 30% now of the total deaths. It is primarily available in the larger centres. It is very costly to run a crematorium. It is costly to set it up and you would have to be cremating a number of cases a year just to break even. Most crematoriums do not make money.
The Chair: Thanks very much, Mr Carmichael. We appreciate your appearance before the committee this morning.
The next matter on our agenda is the determination in respect to the reviews made last week. At the request of Mr Wiseman, we delayed the decisions with respect to the three intended appointees until today. What we have been doing is dealing with them in one motion, but would you rather do it on an individual basis or as a block? Any views? Can we have one motion then dealing with Dr Levine, Mary Broderick and Herbert Nabigon, that we are concurring with the intended appointees?
Mr Wiseman moves that the committee concur in the appointment of Dr Levine, Mary Broderick and Herbert Nabigon.
Motion agreed to.
1020
The Chair: The clerk draws to my attention that we should also deal with Mr Carmichael's appointment. Unless a member wants to delay this until the following week, can we have a motion dealing with Mr Carmichael?
Mr Wiseman moves that the committee concur in the appointment of Mr Carmichael.
Motion agreed to.
ORGANIZATION
The Chair: Moving on to the subcommittee report, has everyone had a chance to take a look at this? This is a tentative schedule we worked out so that we can also deal with agencies. I think it is the feeling of all parties on the committee that we have to try to devote a portion of our time to a review of agencies, boards and commissions. We have tried to accomplish that, and we will be getting together again at a future date to try to lay out the groundwork for November and beyond.
Mr Grandmaître: We are looking at the schedule of business during November, December and maybe the winter adjournment period. Do we know yet what will be our schedule for the winter adjournment?
The Chair: No. We will have to make a request, and that is going to be a decision of the House leaders. As you recall, last summer we requested six weeks, I believe, and we ended up with one week. Again, as is noted on the bottom of the first page, we are asking each party to come in with a recommendation, a selection of two agencies for review. We are probably looking at a request again, I would think, in the four- to six-week range to deal with a possibility of six agencies.
Mr Grandmaître: That is my question. Is it a possibility? What if we were to choose six agencies and we were given only a week to review those six agencies? I do not think we can do a proper job.
The Chair: At that point, we would simply have to take a look at our priorities and probably look at one or, at the most, two to review. Again, it is up to the committee members. If we feel strongly enough about reviewing specific agencies, we make our feelings known to our House leaders so that we can get the sitting time we think is required. All we can do is make a request and then convey our feelings to our own House leaders so that the message is carried to their meetings when they make these decisions on sitting times.
Mr McLean moves that the subcommittee report be accepted.
Motion agreed to.
The Chair: All right, we are going to take a five-minute break for Hansard to depart the scene, and then we will move into closed session.
The committee continued in camera at 1028.