Chair /
Président
Mr Gerard Kennedy (Parkdale-High Park L)
Vice-Chair / Vice-Président
Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough-Rouge River L)
Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay / Timmins-Baie James
ND)
Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke L)
Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough-Rouge River L)
Mr Gerard Kennedy (Parkdale-High Park L)
Mr Frank Mazzilli (London-Fanshawe PC)
Mr John O'Toole (Durham PC)
Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough PC)
Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre / -Centre PC)
Clerk / Greffière
Ms Anne Stokes
Staff / Personnel
Ms Anne Marzalik, research officer, Legislative Research
Service
The committee met at 1601 in room 228.
ELECTION OF CHAIR
Clerk of the
Committee (Ms Anne Stokes): Honourable members, it is my
duty to call upon you to elect a Chair. Are there any
nominations?
Mr Alvin Curling
(Scarborough-Rouge River): I move that Gerard Kennedy be
the Chair of the standing committee on estimates.
Clerk of the
Committee: Mr Kennedy is nominated for Chair. Are there
any further nominations?
Mr John O'Toole
(Durham): I move Wayne Wettlaufer.
Mr Wayne Wettlaufer
(Kitchener Centre): I decline. I'll second the
nomination of Mr Kennedy.
Clerk of the
Committee: Mr Wettlaufer declines?
Mr Curling:
Not up to the job.
Mr
Wettlaufer: You got it, Alvin.
Clerk of the
Committee: No further nominations? There being no
further nominations, I declare nominations closed, and Mr Kennedy
is elected Chair of the committee.
ELECTION OF VICE-CHAIR
The Chair (Mr Gerard
Kennedy): Members, I'm going to call for nominations to
elect a Vice-Chair. Any nominations, please?
Mr
Wettlaufer: I would like to nominate Alvin Curling to
the position of Vice-Chair.
The Chair:
We have the nomination of Mr Curling. Any further nominations?
Seeing no further nominations, Mr Curling, I declare the
nominations closed and you elected as Vice-Chair of the
committee. Congratulations.
APPOINTMENT OF SUBCOMMITTEE
The Chair:
The next business of the committee is to appoint the subcommittee
to determine committee business. I'm looking for the mover, and
it would be Mr O'Toole.
Mr O'Toole:
I move that a subcommittee on committee business be appointed to
meet from time to time at the call of the Chair, or at the
request of any member thereof, to consider and report to the
committee on the business of the committee; that the presence of
all members of the subcommittee is necessary to constitute a
meeting and that the subcommittee be composed of the following
members: Mr Kennedy, Mr Bisson, Mr Wettlaufer and Mr Conway; and
that any member may designate a substitute member on the
subcommittee who is of the same recognized party.
The Chair:
Is there any discussion of this motion? All those in favour? Any
opposed? No. I declare the motion carried.
COMMITTEE BUSINESS
The Chair:
We have a heading here for other business. I want to raise one
point with the committee, and that is the tenure of estimates.
The House leaders will be in discussion tomorrow about extending
the period for estimates. You may understand that the standing
orders declare that by the third week of November the estimates
are deemed to have been reported. In other election years, this
reporting period has been adjusted-there's an amendment to the
standing orders-with the co-operation of all three parties,
because the other implication certainly would be that we would
not review many, if any, ministries before that deadline was
passed.
I hope the members of each of
the parties-and we'll certainly convey it to the NDP-will support
the idea that there should at least be a reasonable period of
consideration for the estimates, without which this committee's
effectiveness is basically nullified.
Mr
Wettlaufer: The position that our government is going to
take is that we have had, we realize, an extension of the period
in the past, but certainly in 1995 that was as a result of the
NDP already presenting its estimates. They had also set up the
schedule, and our government decided that we wanted extra time in
order to change the direction we were going to take. The other
thing we have to keep in mind is that we had an election this
year which disrupted the normal estimates process, and we feel we
should pretty well stick to the schedule which has been set in
the standing orders.
We also think we should make
it as easy as possible on the Chair of the estimates committee.
We've noticed that in the past, for instance in 1997, the Chair
missed 13 of 25 meetings, which would be an attendance rate of
48%, and in 1998 he was only able to attend 11 of 17 meetings. We
think it's important that our government be helpful to the Chair and make it easy that the
Chair attend those meetings.
The Chair:
Mr Wettlaufer, those statistics and that intervention, and those
sentiments most of all, are most appreciated. I'm sure you
wouldn't want to neglect to note that there were 17 meetings and
there were 25 meetings. There was a reasonable effort by this
committee to discharge its obligation, which is my only concern
as Chair. I'm sure you would want the contribution of our very
able Vice-Chair, Rick Bartolucci, to be noted, because at all
times this committee was chaired, I think, in the interests of
the Ontario public.
We have had some commentary.
I'll leave it open for any other members who would like to make
comment. I would hope that at the House leaders' meeting there
might be a change in disposition on the part of the committee,
because certainly I believe there is a worthwhile purpose to this
committee, a contribution to be made by parties from each side of
the House. Again, the happenstance of when this committee is
meeting means that probably no ministry will actually be called
forward by this committee, given the notice period and so forth.
Unless we're prepared to make designations of ministries today,
we stand in a committee very challenged to fulfill any of our
responsibilities as mandated by the standing orders and the
conventions of the House.
As a Chair from the official
opposition, certainly we take very seriously the role of this
committee, as I know all members do. But I would like to open the
floor to considerations from the members on this subject of the
sitting time for estimates, and then we'll conclude our
deliberations for today.
Mr Curling:
I am actually shocked to know that Mr Wettlaufer would have made
such a statement. I'm glad he raised the point that there was an
election and the new government of the day is registered. This is
a new era now for this government. What they're saying is that
they will continue to do what they have to do.
So far, they have made a
throne speech which is slightly different. There are many
estimates that were not even looked at the last time. You made
reference to the fact that when the NDP was out in 1995, you
asked for an extension in order to deal with the matter. It's the
same matter here now. It seems to me that you were trying to say,
Mr Wettlaufer, that democracy was interrupted by an election. You
were saying that things are-
Mr
Wettlaufer: I didn't say that.
Mr Curling:
Well, here we are returning, and Mr Chair, as you say, since not
much has changed and the job was not completed, you feel an
extension of the time would be necessary to keep the democratic
process in place. I know your government would like to be
accountable and that you have nothing to hide whatsoever. The
estimates coming forward is an opportunity for us to examine
what's going on within the government. I'm sure you have capable
civil servants who will of course aid you if the ministers are
unable to answer the questions.
The fact is that we and the
people on whose behalf we speak, the constituents outside, would
like to know the happenings within each ministry. I think we
could appeal to you in your own democratic sense of rights that
you so believe in that an extension of time would give an
opportunity not only to the people but to many-Mr Mazzilli, for
instance, being for the first time on the committee, would like
to see how it is operated and how the estimates process is
exercised. It will give him that opportunity too.
I know that if I appeal to
many of those members-Mr O'Toole and Mr Stewart-they are
reasonable men. You don't need directions from inside the inner
circle to tell you how to behave in a democratic manner. I know
that extension is a very reasonable, democratic request.
Let me just comment on behalf
of the Chair, who was so attacked, that he is one of the most
able individuals in the House, a hard-working person. If that
individual, the Chair, was not here at the time of estimates, Mr
Bartolucci was the Vice-Chair, another excellent individual. At
no time was the estimates committee compromised while Mr Kennedy
was doing other, just as important, things outside. I know that
Mr Wettlaufer did not mean in any way that he was not on other
duties, doing another job. It has never been compromised at
all.
The Chair:
Thank you, Mr Curling. I'm sure the Hansard for the committee
would show that a high degree of the active participation of
members like Mr Wettlaufer was directed at myself, and perhaps
that was a comment on his views of the quality of the
proceedings.
I would open the floor
perhaps, Mr Curling, if it's all right, to other members. We'll
keep this meeting brief and perhaps defer some of this matter to
our subcommittee to look at if there are other ways and means
that this committee can reach its obligations.
Before Mr Wettlaufer is
considered, would any other members of the government caucus like
to address this issue I've raised for our consideration ahead of
the House leaders' deliberation, which is whether estimates
should sit this year and do its business and whether you wish to
see your rights as members of this committee addressed or not
addressed? I think it's appropriate that the committee have some
say before that decision is rendered. Mr Wettlaufer, I have your
request. Any other members who would also like to be heard? Mr
Wettlaufer.
Mr
Wettlaufer: I think it's very important to note that the
estimates are a matter of public record, they are on the public
record for review, and any questions or concerns about them can
be addressed during question period or concurrence in supply
debate. Also, Mr Chair, you've already indicated that the House
leaders will be discussing this within the next couple of days. I
think it would be very presumptuous of this committee to make any
recommendations to the House leaders. I think we should recommend
to the House leaders that they go ahead and discuss it amongst
themselves without any further discussion at this committee. I
would so move that we refrain from making any recommendation to
the House leaders in that regard.
The Chair: I'll rule that out of
order, Mr Wettlaufer. The ability and prerogative of this Chair
is to call a subcommittee, which is all that has been proposed.
There isn't a motion on the floor so I can't entertain a motion
to limit the prerogative. The orders of the House have precedence
over any motions we might make at this committee. We may meet as
a subcommittee at my discretion, or the discretion indeed of
yourself or any other member of the committee, in the intervening
time. If I understand correctly, there isn't a motion put forward
yet on a recommendation to the House leaders from this committee.
All that has been put forward is an opportunity for members of
this committee to express themselves. So, Mr Wettlaufer, I'm
ruling your motion out of order for the time being.
Again, do any other members
wish to address the matter at hand, as to whether estimates
committee sits and reviews the estimates of 1999-2000 in this
fiscal year, whether those estimates receive any scrutiny, as
we're charged to do as members of this committee-mindful too, as
I'm sure each of is, that we will sit for approximately five
weeks out of the 52-week calendar year. This committee contains
some members who I know from past experience have zeal and energy
on behalf of the House business, and they may wish indeed to
propose perhaps other ways that we can address this, looking for
any suggestions or solutions which would otherwise see us not sit
as a committee, not consider and really not do the people's
business. Any suggestions at all? OK, there are no other members
willing to go on the record at this time.
Mr Curling:
Can I just make a few comments, Mr Chair? I must say, I was quite
disappointed in Mr Wettlaufer for making that suggestion-I call
it a suggestion, not a motion-which you correctly ruled out of
order. I hope the House leaders will be seeing this Hansard,
wherein they are quite aware that the House has only sat seven
days in the last almost 10 months. To say that we can bring these
things forward in question period, if we have any questions about
estimates, is just ignoring the facts staring us in the face. I
hope we can find just a short extension in order to review some
of those issues in estimates. I hope the recommendation goes
forward for that extension. I support that.
The Chair:
There's a matter that we're checking in terms of the business of
this committee so I'd like to declare a two-minute recess to give
the clerk time to investigate. We'll be reconvening as soon after
that as we can.
The committee recessed
from 1615 to 1621.
The Chair:
Mr Bisson and others members of the committee, we'll call the
committee back to order, the recess being over. We will proceed
to the business of this committee, which is to declare choices,
selections for estimates. We would also like to extend to Mr
Bisson a brief opportunity to address the dilemma of the
committee in this particular year, of which he may indeed, from
his prior experience, be aware. That is, the estimates committee
is deemed to be reported by the third Thursday of this month,
which would mean a very strong restriction. We have been
canvassing the members for their views about the limitations that
puts on the estimates committee and the discussions the House
leaders may have about extending that period. Mr Bisson, you may
or may not wish to add your remarks to the record. I'll give you
that opportunity.
Mr Gilles Bisson
(Timmins-James Bay): I wasn't part of these discussions,
but let me be clairvoyant. The Tory government opposed extending,
I would imagine.
The Chair:
We've only heard from Mr Wettlaufer, but he was a bit
authoritative, I would say.
Mr Bisson:
All kidding aside, and as much as we like to poke fun at each
other every now and then, estimates is the one committee that
gives all members of the House, including the government, an
opportunity to bring forward those issues that they think are
important.
Why do you look, Wayne, as if
you've swallowed a mouse or something?
Mr
Wettlaufer: I'm just listening to you with all my
patience and with all my attention.
Mr Bisson:
Well, this is good, Wayne, because what I'm going to tell you is
simply this: It's a committee that we've all had an opportunity
to sit on. Most of us here have sat on it, I think. We know what
it's about: It's being able to bring forward in a very different
way, as a private member, issues that are important for us in our
constituencies directly to the ministers and staff, to hold them
accountable for the expenditures of their ministries; but also,
from our caucus perspectives, to be able to do the same.
I'm not going to belabour the
point because I understand mathematics. This is the estimates
committee. I count five government members and two voting
opposition members. I will test democracy and see if it
works.
Mr
Wettlaufer: This is truly democracy in action.
Mr Bisson:
Just one last point, Mr Chair. I think this will be a question of
democracy, but the tyranny of the majority, I would think.
The Chair:
We have had some discussion. We've yet to see a motion put
forward in this regard. It was really each member-
Mr Bisson: I
would love to put a motion forward, Mr Chair: that the estimates
committee be charged to sit many times this fall session to be
able to deal with estimates of the various ministries,
considering that we have been late coming back and haven't had
proper time to deal with the full estimates.
The Chair:
That would go forward as a request from this committee to the
House leaders. Is that what your motion is?
Mr Curling:
I second that.
The Chair:
And Mr Curling is the seconder. Any discussion on this
motion?
Mr Bisson:
You guys are learning.
The Chair:
Mr Bisson, did you wish to speak further to the motion?
Mr Bisson: I
just want to say that I would hope the government members would
support this. I somehow think they won't. I somehow think this will be
the question of the majority deciding they don't want to do this.
I think it's wrong. Quite frankly, I've been on both sides of
this committee, as a government member and opposition member. I
hope you never have an opportunity to sit in opposition. Well, I
do hope that. You've got to understand. I hope you never get to
sit in opposition because I hope you're all defeated next time.
That was what I wanted to get at.
But it is really a good
committee. It's a non-partisan committee to a certain extent, and
we really do have an opportunity to hold to task the individual
expenditures of ministries. Having sat on the government side of
this committee, it was the one opportunity as a government member
to hold ministries accountable for some of the decisions that I
thought may or may not have been good or bad. For government
members it's equally important.
The Chair:
Thank you for that comment. I will call for the vote.
Mr Bisson:
Recorded vote.
The Chair:
Recorded vote.
AYES
Bisson, Curling.
NAYS
Mazzilli, O'Toole, Stewart,
Wettlaufer.
The Chair: I
declare the motion lost.
Yes, Mr Wettlaufer?
Mr
Wettlaufer: I would like to suggest that we hear from
the Ministry of the Solicitor General-
The Chair:
Mr Wettlaufer, I have to follow standing orders. The standing
orders give a sequence for selection, and yours will come right
after the honourable members' from the official opposition and
from the newly recognized third party. I will now turn to Mr
Curling on behalf of the official opposition.
For the benefit of all
members, we have two rounds, a total of 15 hours in each round.
Up to two ministries may be chosen, and you are asked to select
the ministries or ministry that you wish to review in each round
and the number of hours for each ministry. Again, each round is
15 hours, and you give us the breakdown of hours for each
ministry you're putting forward, if it's more than one, for the
first 15 hours.
Mr Curling:
Let me just make sure about this. It's 15 hours in total?
The Chair:
In each round. The first round is yours, Mr Curling, and your
party's. It consists of 15 hours to be allocated to either one
ministry or to two ministries and it may be broken down any way
your party sees fit.
Mr Curling:
My party would suggest that we bring forward the Ministry of
Municipal Affairs and Housing and the Ministry of Education.
The Chair:
What hours are you assigning to each of those?
Mr Curling:
We'll allocate them at-I think it's a big issue-I would say five
for housing and 10 for education.
The Chair:
Mr Curling has put forward the first two ministries: five hours
for the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing; 10 hours for
the Ministry of Education.
So that you're aware, Mr
Curling, and for the purposes of the committee members, estimates
are still in the format of education and training and colleges
and universities as one ministry, so that's what we have to call
forward, although the party may wish to only focus on one part of
that combined ministry.
Mr Bisson, your party's
choices?
Mr Bisson:
I'll allow the members of the government to be clairvoyant for a
moment because I'm going to pick two ministries and split them
equally: first of all, the Premier's office, followed by the
Solicitor General.
The Chair:
Mr Wettlaufer, for the government party.
Mr
Wettlaufer: I would like to select the Solicitor General
for 15 hours and community and social services for a further 15
hours.
The Chair:
Mr Wettlaufer, each round consists of 15 hours. We'll give you
another opportunity and we'll come back, and we now have some
insight as to what that may be. The Solicitor General has already
been selected, Mr Wettlaufer.
Mr
Wettlaufer: How many hours are yours?
Mr Bisson:
Seven hours.
The Chair:
Seven and a half, I guess.
Mr
Wettlaufer: Then we'll pick community and social
services for 15 hours.
The Chair:
So community and social services for 15 hours is Mr Wettlaufer's
choice for the government party.
We go back to Mr Curling,
the second round, another 15 hours.
Mr
Curling: The second round, Mr Chairman, is the Ministry
of the Environment and the Ministry of Health, and they're split
equally.
The Chair:
Thank you. Mr Bisson?
Mr Bisson:
Again split equally, I would go with the Attorney General's
office and the ministry of native affairs.
The Chair:
We're just checking. Those have been filed separately, so they
can be reviewed separately. Thank you, Mr Bisson. Mr Wettlaufer,
your second choice?
Mr
Wettlaufer: Could I ask one question, Chair? I didn't
hear the selection of Alvin Curling.
Mr
Curling: Environment and health.
Mr
Wettlaufer: And we'll pick agriculture.
Clerk of the
Committee: For 15?
The Chair:
Agriculture for 15, yes. And those aren't points and this isn't a
game show.
Members, those are the
standing orders. We are required to give advance notice to the
ministries. We are mindful that we are not permitted to sit
during constituency week, which is next week, so we will consider
this the notice period for them. The first ministry, which will
be the Ministry of
Municipal Affairs and Housing, will be called for sitting on
Tuesday, November 16, and on November 17 it will be the remainder
of that time and any time remaining for the Ministry of
Education, but I think our time will be used exclusively by the
Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing. As was previously
stated, the further sitting of this committee will be subject to
the determination of the House leaders.
Any other business that
will advance the interest of this committee?
Mr
Curling: Just one other thing, Mr Chair. When will we
know of the ruling about whether we'll be sitting as an estimates
committee?
The Chair:
Each of the House leaders will be privy to those discussions. We
sit, by order of the House, Tuesday and Wednesday at this time,
at 3:30, until the third Thursday of November, unless that is
changed by resolution.
I will ask the clerk to
make sure that everyone is aware of the outcome of that, should
members' business take them away from the House on the day that's
determined. As soon as we know, we will advise each and every
member of the committee. I'll just put members on notice that we
may have a subcommittee meeting once we see what the disposition
is of the House leaders.
